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May 21, 2024 15:54
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- Mad Doctor Cthulhu
- Mar 3, 2008
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Young Freud posted:
The Israelis for years have been using Apaches to assassinate Hamas officials, so there's precedent in using attack helicopters being used to hunt down and isolate Qaddafi and his senior commanders.
The thing that gets me about this is that the regime's AAA must be non-existent now if the French and the British are willing to send in helicopters to flush Qaddafi out.
Also, we should let Indian Army intervene into Syria, just to throw off the Russians.
I would say that the endgame for Qaddafi is coming close. I'm doubting he'll be taken alive, and will probably commit suicide when they finally come close to capturing him. Do we know anything more about his family as well, if they've successfully escaped the country?
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May 27, 2011 04:49
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Situation update for Misrata:
quote:]Events of Wednesday, May 25th (situation at May 26th)
- Clashes near Dafniya are still continuing the lines of the Free Libyans Forces are reportedly holding.
- A very large fuel tanker arrived to Misrata in order to resupply the City after its fuel tanks were destroyed due to shelling by regime forces in early May.
- NATO did not report any key airstrikes in Misrata, Zliten or Al Khums for this day.
Comment
There is very little news for this day, and the general situation still seems to be unchanged. However, the arrival of thousands of tons of fuel (along with many other goods like food and medicals supplies) as well as the (assumed) continuous influx of troop reinforcements from eastern Libya is reassuring.
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May 27, 2011 08:40
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- Jim Bont
- Apr 29, 2008
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You were supposed to take those out of the deck.
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Warning, this is tangential so I posted it here rather than D&D. I did a double-take yesterday when I found out Sweden has contributed aircraft to the no-fly zone in Libya. I have Swedish nationality but have been living overseas for most of my life, so haven't been keeping up with events there. I'm almost as surprised as I was with OBL's death, this is a pretty radical departure from its historical foreign policy. Along with ISAF it seems like it's now a de facto NATO member? Anyway I try to keep tabs on threads here for stuff like this, it's more informative than most news sites. If someone from Sweden could post any good editorials or TV debates about the deployment that are online I'd appreciate it, or for that matter any reports of combat operations seeing as it hasn't happened since Napoleon.
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May 27, 2011 09:16
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- Young Freud
- Nov 26, 2006
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I had to double-check if you where perhaps mistaking Sweden for Switzerland. But, yeah, the Swedes maintain some sort of neutrality, but it looks like they've deployed soldiers before for KFOR and the ISAF in Afghanistan, as well as flying under a UN Fighter Wing during the Congo Crisis in the '60s. My guess is that they only contribute their military under international auspices.
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May 27, 2011 09:43
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- Bisse
- Jun 26, 2005
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There was a huge debate about it in Sweden. What's funny is that for once in a lifetime, you actually had the conservatives arguing for sending planes to support the operation, and the democrats arguing against it! They were arguing that we shouldn't send any planes since we might hurt civilians due to imprecise rockets being fired into cities? But, i mean wtf, we're actually going down there to save the civilians, we're trying to take down a military firing cluster bombs at their own people, right guys?!?
Anyway, we ended up joining, a bit due to supporting NATO, but mainly due to pure solidarity with the libyan people, to stop a manslaughter. We do maintain neutrality but the sides here in this conflict are so uniquely black and white that there really is no discussion about what is the right thing to do. However due to the democrats' little stunt, our planes can actually not be used to attack any ground targets  so they are only used for recon missions.
Bisse fucked around with this message at 10:06 on May 27, 2011
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May 27, 2011 10:02
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Charles Bouchard, the leader of Operation Unified Protector has been giving a statement. He's confirmed that leaflets have been recently dropped on Brega telling the soldiers to surrender or flee, or face the consequences, and combined with the annoucement that helicopters should be operational in Libya today it wouldn't suprise me if this weekend is the start of the Battle of Brega.
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May 27, 2011 10:07
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- Cable Guy
- Jul 18, 2005
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I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...
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Slippery Tilde
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Brown Moses posted:
Latest article from the Guardian:
quote:
...The Apaches, capable of flying as low as 1,000 feet and using heat-seeking missiles...
On a serious note though, I thought Apaches could fly a LOT lower than that (dozens of feet, not hundreds) and were designed to do so from the outset. From the wiki article on the RAF Westland Apache:
Like the US AH-64D Apache Longbows; the Apache AH Mk 1 carries a fire-control radar (FCR) and Radar Frequency Interferometer (RFI), providing an integrated surveillance and attack system.[11] The 'Longbow’ radar is the bulbous unit over the rotor hub assembly; radar placement above the rotors allows the Apache to hover behind cover scanning for targets, with only the radar unit exposed.
Westland Apache AH Mk 1 at Kemble Airport, Gloucestershire in 2008
I can understand that local terrain (sand/dust) might interfere with visibility when hovering ten or twenty feet off the ground behind cover, but 1000' still seems high for transit, or any part of a mission, especially if you take shoulder launched sams into account. It wouldn't surprise me if loyalists still have a few of those around, just that a fast flying jet offers a lot less reaction time than a helicopter cruising at 1000' hence we haven't seen them used so much.
Chortles posted:
Who knows if NATO may have missed a MANPADS or two, but I would imagine that the Brits' Apaches (dunno if they're the Longbow variant) would be able to outrange any anti-aircraft guns that regime forces might plausibly have left, so otherwise... yeah. I expect fighter escorts nevertheless for the helos though.
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May 27, 2011 10:15
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- Mr. Sunshine
- May 15, 2008
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This is a scrunt that has been in space too long and become a Lunt (Long Scrunt)
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Fun Shoe
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Bisse posted:
...conservatives arguing for sending planes to support the operation, and the democrats arguing against it!
Eh, what? Who are the "conservatives" and the "democrats" in this case? As far as I know, everyone apart from the neo-nazis were in favor of sending planes?
Jim Bont posted:
...hasn't happened since Napoleon.
Yeah, like Young Freud said, we've had soldiers in combat roles in various parts of the world since the 60s. However, a fact that seems to have passed completely unnoticed is that Sweden - for the first time since Napoleon - is officially at war in Afghanistan. As in, legally at war. The supreme commander announced more than a year ago that Swedish soldiers in Afghanistan are operating under wartime laws, not civilian laws. That's a pretty big deal, but noone seems to have picked up on it.
Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 10:28 on May 27, 2011
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May 27, 2011 10:17
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Live blogs May 27th
LibyaFeb17
Feb17.info
Guardian
quote:Overnight the town of Zintan came under heavy rocket attack from Gaddafi forces, a foreign doctor told Reuters. “There must have been about a hundred (strikes). I wasn’t counting, but there were four or five rockets every half an hour or 15 minutes,” Anja Wolz of Doctors Without Borders said by telephone. No one was seriously hurt.
quote:Rebels and forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi engaged in fierce fighting on the Western outskirts of the city of Misrata on Friday, a Reuters reporter said.
The reporter said he could see white puffs of smoke and dust from where mortars fired by pro-Gaddafi forces were landing.
The rebels responded by firing back with rockets and heavy machine guns, shouting “Allahu Akbar!”, or “God is Greatest!”, after each volley.
A medical worker on the rebel side said that six fighters had been wounded in the fighting, two of them critically.
“We are being attacked from all sides with rockets, RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) and mortars,” said Faraj al-Mistiri, 36, a rebel fighter.
“It started between 5:30 and 6:00 a.m. (0330-0400 GMT). They have advanced. It’s normal to and fro. They are trying their hardest to get back into Misrata,” he said.
The rebels have pushed pro-Gaddafi forces out of the centre of the city, but they are still attacking from positions on the outskirts.
quote:Yesterday David Cameron gave the final authorization for attack helicopters to start flying into Libya in a bid to step up the military pressure on Col Muammar Gaddafi.
Sky News sources said the helicopters would deploy with 24 hours.
Col Gaddafi is “increasingly worried” he will be killed by Nato and has taken to hiding in Libyan hospitals to avoid air strikes, British intelligence reports suggest.
Diplomatic sources last night disclosed that recent intelligence suggested the Libyan dictator was “paranoid” and “on the run” from Nato’s escalating attacks on his regime.
MI6 has told Mr Cameron it has discovered that Col Gaddafi’s behaviour is becoming even more erratic as Nato strikes take their toll.
quote:President Barack Obama said on Friday that the United States and France were in full agreement on sticking with the NATO-led intervention in Libya until the crisis there is resolved.
“We agreed we have made progress on our Libya campaign but that meeting the U.N. mandate of civilian protection cannot be accomplished when (Muammar) Gaddafi remains in Libya, directing his forces in acts of aggression against the Libyan people,” Obama told a news briefing at the G8 summit.
“We are joined in resolve to finish the job,” he said, after talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy during the Group of Eight annual gathering in the northern French seaside town of Deauville.
quote:Five powerful explosions hit the Libyan capital Tripoli late Thursday, rocking an area where leader Muammar Gaddafi has his residence, AFP reports.
Libyan state television says NATO airstrikes are targeting the capital, citing a military source as saying civilian and military sites in the city are now under bombardment.
Five loud blasts were heard in the space of 10 minutes and a column of smoke was seen rising from Gaddafi’s compound.
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May 27, 2011 10:33
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- Pureauthor
- Jul 8, 2010
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ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST
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Do you guys think it would be better if Gaddafi was taken alive or if he ended up being killed during the attacks?
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May 27, 2011 10:45
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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There's also a major protest taking place in Egypt today:
quote:Egyptian blogger and activist Wael Khalil explains why protesters are taking to the streets again today in a 'Second Day of Rage'.
In a post on Comment is Free, he writes:
quote:The call for a "second revolution" chimes with a growing restlessness and impatience at the pace of developments and the overall performance of the governing Supreme Council of the Armed Forces...
One concern is the growing talk and continuous leaks about intentions to pardon Hosni Mubarak and members of his regime from facing criminal trials. We demand no clemency for Mubarak, his family or his regime.
The biggest grievance has been the manner in which the security forces – the military police, the army and the police – reacted when the protests got more heated. There has been more than one incident since the revolution when they have used disproportionate force, mass arrest, torture as well as live ammunition against protesters. We demand that not a single peaceful demonstrator should be confronted, arrested, beaten up or humiliated. The Egyptian people have earned themselves that right.
The army have also extended their use of military trials against civilians to unprecedented levels, with hundreds of civilians having received severe and disproportionate prison sentences.
There's also more news from Yemen:
quote:Thousands and thousands are flocking towards the protest camp at Sana'a university amid reports that mediators have intervened to stop the fighting, Tom Finn reports from the Yemeni capital.
"Every week we have seen more and more people filling up this motorway, which is a ring road round Sana'a. Last week it was four miles worth, this week it is going to be more," he said.
Troops loyal to General Ali Mohsin, who defected in March, will watch over the protest, Tom reports. Yesterday the general made a "fiery speech" yesterday urging soldiers not to obey President Saleh, but so far his troops have stayed out of the fighting.
Meanwhile, teh battle between President Saleh's troops and the Hashid tribal militia have calmed in the last 24 hours, Tom says.
quote:There has been an eerie quiet hanging over Sana'a. I'm told there are tribal mediators doing some negotiations behind the scene. We haven't heard any mortar fire or machine guns for at least 10 hours.
A lot of people will be joining the protest because of the violence. They desperately don't want to see Yemen dragged into a violent conflict, so they want to show their solidarity with peaceful protesters.
Tom says reports of mediation to end the tribal fighting point to a possible involvement of Saudi Arabia. "They [Saudi Arabia] have lots of informal networks with politicians and businessmen and are able to pull the strings without people knowing about it. So it quite possible that they are involved in these negotiations."
Tom also warned Twitter users to be weary of "sensational and fear mongering tweeting about Yemen."
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May 27, 2011 10:46
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Pureauthor posted:
Do you guys think it would be better if Gaddafi was taken alive or if he ended up being killed during the attacks?
I'd rather see him put on trial for his crimes, although him dying would probably end the conflict sooner resulting in less people dying.
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May 27, 2011 10:47
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Few more Libya updates:
quote:The G8 summit has pledged £12bn ($20bn) in aid, loans and debt relief to Arab countries in transition to democracy. The two chief recipients are Egypt and Tunisia.
quote:Gaddafi forces have laid landmines in the Misrata area, the commander of the NATO mission said on Friday. “This morning reports showed that a minefield was laid in the Misrata area,” Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard told a news conference.
quote:Vitol has arranged 11 shipments of fuel to Tobruk, a port in eastern Libya.
quote:On May 26, NATO aircraft flew 140 sorties, including 54 strike sorties. Some of the key targets inlcuded:
In Tripoli: 1 Armoured Vehicle Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 1 Surface-To-Air Missile Storage Facility, 2 Command & Control Nodes.
In the vicinity of Sirte : 1 Ammunition Storage Facility, 1 Command & Control Node.
In the vicinity of Zuwarah: 1 Ammunition Storage and 4 Aircrafts in an Airfield.
In the vicinity of Misratah: 1 Rocket Launcher, 3 Self-Propelled Artillery Pieces, 1 Truck-Mounted Gun.
In the vicinity of Al Khums: 1 Surface-To-Air Missile Launcher.
In the vicinity of Hun: 1 Ammunition Storage Facility.
quote:Russia says Gaddafi has lost legitimacy. RIA cites the Foreign Ministry. Russia also says its ready to mediate in the Libyan crisis following a request from G8 partners.
Russia seems to be coming to the realisation that Gaddafi's the wrong horse to back.
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May 27, 2011 11:20
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Couple of NATO flyers and Libya news:
quote:WARNING, for your safety: Leave your position, your equipment and go back to your home and your family. Stop the attacks against Libyan civilians or you WILL BE DESTROYED
quote:WARNING, you are no match to the advanced weapons and air superiority of NATO. Continuing your attacks on civilians will be the reason for your death.
quote:Reuters has more from the G8 summit in France. Angela Merkel (left), the German chancellor, has said her country wants Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to be removed and is not isolated in this stance.
She also said the EU would contribute €1.3bn (£1.127bn) to aid for Tunisia and Egypt.
quote:Reuters has news from Libya on the state of the fighting between Gaddafi's forces and anti-government rebels. Gaddafi's forces launched rocket attacks overnight in the rebel-held town of Zintan and are fighting rebels on the outskirts of Misrata, which Gaddafi's enemies also control.
The news agency says the British and French helicopters are likely to be deployed in Misrata first. They are needed there because "pro-Gaddafi forces are able to evade attack from high-altitude warplanes by concealing artillery pieces under trees or moving them once they have fired, a tactic known as 'shoot and scoot'".
The news agency's reporter in Misrata said he could see white puffs of smoke and dust from where mortars fired by pro-Gaddafi forces were landing. The rebels responded by firing back with rockets and heavy machine guns, shouting "Allahu Akbar!", or "God is Greatest!", after each volley. Doctors at Misrata's hospital said three rebels were killed and 16 wounded in the fighting on Friday.
Faraj al-Mistiri, 36, a rebel fighter, said:
quote:We are being attacked from all sides with rockets, RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades] and mortars. It started between 5.30 and 6.00am [4.30-5am BST]. They have advanced. It's normal to and fro. They are trying their hardest to get back into Misrata.
In Zintan, which is about 150km (93 miles) south-west of Tripoli, Anja Wolz of Doctors Without Borders said:
quote:There must have been about a hundred [strikes]. I wasn't counting, but there were four or five rockets every half an hour or 15 minutes … Zintan is emptying, people are leaving.
In Tripoli, several large explosions were heard and a column of smoke seen rising from Gaddafi's Bab al-Aziziyah compound.
Earlier, Libyan prime minister Al-Baghdadi Ali Al-Mahmoudi gave a rare news conference at which he repeated offers of a ceasefire. Rebels have rejected previous truce offers because they say Gaddafi's departure is a precondition. Al-Mahmoudi said: "Libya is serious about a ceasefire," but he added: "The leader Muammar Gaddafi is the leader of the Libyan people; he decides what the Libyan people think. He is in the hearts of the Libyan people."
quote:Nicolas Sarkozy has proposed the G8 give $40bn (£24.4bn) to support new Arab democracies, Reuters is reporting Tunisian finance minister Jalloul Ayed as saying. This was not broken down by country and it is unclear whether other leaders supported it. So far the G8 have pledged $20bn for Tunisia and Egypt specifically.
quote:Patrick Wintour, the Guardian's politics editor, writes from the G8 summit in France that the summit has "reached a tough position on Gaddafi", saying in unusually stark terms that he has lost legitimacy and must go. Patrick writes:
quote:
That appears to reflect a hardening of the Russian stance since they had previously opposed the military action and were more circumspect on whether Gaddafi could remain in power. In practical terms this means little since the G8 is not a military power, but it does suggest greater international diplomatic consensus than had been expected. Nato will start to deploy air attack helicopters in the next few days.
Leaders of the G8 have also been discussing with the Tunisians and Egyptians how much aid they can give them to help the painful transition process from autocracy to democracy. Both economies are in dire state, partly due to the loss of tourism. A special communique on the Arab Spring prepared by the G8 suggests in vague terms that multilateral institutions can provide $20bn (£12.17bn) in loans and aid to the two countries, but much of this is existing money apart from new loans being provided by the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development. The EBRD has changed its mandate so it can operate in the Middle East.
There is a suspicion that Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, is working with his fellow summiteers so he can produce a larger number including bilateral aid s large as $40bn. But as students of Gordon Brown and G8s know, these headline figures have to viewed with suspicion.
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May 27, 2011 13:13
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Bit more from Yemen, where things are far from calm:
quote:While militia leader Sadeq al-Ahmar announced a ceasefire in Sana'a, tribal leaders from outside the capital claimed they had seized a government military camp prompting air strikes from the president's forces.
Reuters reports.
quote:Yemeni tribesmen said they had seized control of a military compound from elite troops loyal to President Saleh.
Tribal leader Sheikh Hamid Asim told Reuters his fighters killed the base's military commander and a separate tribal source said the Yemeni air force dropped bombs to prevent the tribesmen from seizing an arms cache at the site.
Further bombing sorties by the air force could be heard near Sanaa during the course of the day.
If confirmed, the Republican Guard's loss of a military compound to tribesmen with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades would be an embarrassing setback for Saleh, whose security forces have been drawn into pitched street fighting in the capital this week that has killed nearly 100 people.
AP had a similar report:
quote:
Friday's assault on the base in the el-Fardha Nehem region was the most significant escalation yet outside the capital. Tribal fighters stormed the camp, 50 miles (80 kilometers) northeast of Sanaa, and killed tens of troops including the base commander in the fighting, said Sheik Ali Saif, a leader from the Hashid tribe.
After the Hashid fighters captured the camp, government airplanes bombed them and other forces clashed with them on the ground, he said. At least 12 tribesmen were killed, Saif said.
Saif said the tribe attacked the base to prevent soldiers there from moving in Sanaa to reinforce government troops there. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 13:32 on May 27, 2011
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May 27, 2011 13:29
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- samizdat
- Dec 3, 2008
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NATO psyops message to Gaddafi troops in Zintan on 2-meter radio (143.000 MHz).
It's also in English, and the dude's voice for the English part sounds like it'd be used for announcing the end of the world or something.
I've been checking places like Twitter, Foreign Policy magazine, and Alive in Libya for updates. Twitter is basically my ghetto RSS/news aggregation system and I love it. If you're following the right accounts then you don't have to dig through Google News.
samizdat fucked around with this message at 14:10 on May 27, 2011
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May 27, 2011 14:06
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- Nuclear Spoon
- Aug 18, 2010
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I want to cry out
but I don’t scream and I don’t shout
And I feel so proud
to be alive
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4074618,00.html
So Dinnerjacket wants to be bros with Israel?
Arab politics confuses the poo poo out of me.
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May 27, 2011 14:15
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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samizdat posted:
NATO psyops message to Gaddafi troops in Zintan on 2-meter radio (143.000 MHz).
It's also in English, and the dude's voice for the English part sounds like it'd be used for announcing the end of the world or something.
I've been checking places like Twitter, Foreign Policy magazine, and Alive in Libya for updates. Twitter is basically my ghetto RSS/news aggregation system and I love it. If you're following the right accounts then you don't have to dig through Google News.
Thanks for the links, it's good to have other perspectives on what is happening in Libya. I read that the most popular FM radio station in Tripoli has now been taken over by NATO broadcasts warning civilians to stay away from certain areas that NATO plan to bomb as well.
Few more update, first Syria:
quote:Eight people have been killed in today's protests in Syria, according to Damascus-based lawyer and human rights monitor Razan Zeitouneh, writes Nidaa Hassan reports from Syria.
quote:In addition to four people killed in Dael, close to Deraa, this morning, she says there is one person confirmed dead in Zabadani, close to the Lebanese border, and three in Qatana near Damascus.
So far it is hard to tell if protests are as widespread or have gathered as large crowds as last week. Demonstrators, blocked from gathering in many cases by security forces, have taken to new methods of protest: gathering increasingly during the week, at night (which makes video hard to take), popping up for flash protests before dispersing and holding small localised protests in neighbourhoods of cities such as Homs.
"We are still confident of the strength of the movement," says one activist in Damascus.
"But we realise media interest is essential and small spread-out protests don't send such a strong message."
Yemen
quote:Twenty people have been killed in clashes outside the Yemeni capital Sana'a, Hakim Almasmari editor of the Yemen Post just told Al-Jazeera. But he confirmed that the ceasefire is holding in the capital.
The Guardian's Tom Finn provides a Twitter update on the funeral for six killed in yesterday's fighting in Hasaba.
quote: Rain falling on a morbid funeral procession in Sana'a, carrying the bodies of 6 residents killed in Hasaba clashes yesterday #yemen
Egypt
quote:Around 100,000 people have gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square for the 'Second Day of Rage' protests, a live blog by the Egyptian daily Ahram reports.
"Where is the Brotherhood, Tahrir is here," the protesters chanted to underline the secular nature of the demonstration.
The blog explains:
quote:The Brotherhood had announced earlier in the week that they will not join today's protests, which they said will only create tension between the people and the armed forces. Since Mubarak stepped down on 11 February, the Brotherhood have lost all the goodwill they gained among protesters for their role, if belated, in the revolution. Stunts like using religion to push the "yes" vote in the constitutional referendum and distancing themselves with the ongoing protests calling for the remainder of the revolution's demands have portrayed the group as opportunists.
The live blog covering Egypt is worth following if you want regular updates about the protests taking place.
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May 27, 2011 14:33
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- El Anansi
- Jan 27, 2008
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Just got back from Tahrir a few minutes ago, it's a pretty big group right now, but it definitely pales to the crowds we got during the last week of January/first week of February. The difference in how it's being handled can't be overstated, though: during January all of downtown was completely locked down and blocked to vehicle traffic, whereas I just got from one end to the other via taxi completely unhindered in like three minutes. As far as I could tell, it's only an army presence for security--understandably people have some lingering resentments w/r/t the police here--and they're being as chill as ever, mostly just checking people for weapons and checking ID at the borders of the protest area.
There's kind of been a perpetual protest village in front of the State Media building on the Nile since Mubarak stepped down, this kind of seems like the same kind of deal, just on a larger scale.
My school recommended we not leave our apartments today, but I'd seriously be surprised if any real poo poo goes down today. The guys running the military aren't saints, frankly they've been loving inscrutable for the last couple months, but they're a damned sight smarter than Habib and the rest of the jackasses responsible for what happened the last time we had a "day of rage".
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May 27, 2011 15:53
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Brown Moses posted:
Russia seems to be coming to the realisation that Gaddafi's the wrong horse to back.
To elaborate, Medvedev specifically called for Gaddafi to step down, though he apparently did so in private.
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May 27, 2011 16:00
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Hopefully the military in Egypt will get the message the Egyptian people deserve respect and shouldn't be ignored.
Few other updates:
quote:David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy are planning a visit to the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi, Patrick Wintour reports.
quote:Sarkozy was speaking at press conference at the end of the G8 summit of rich western nations where all countries agreed that Muammar Gaddafi had lost legitimacy and must step down. The Russians agreed to back this decision but David Cameron rejected suggestions the Russians had offered to mediate towards Gaddafi's exit.
Cameron said only one message needed to get to Gaddafi: that it was time to go.
British sources would not confirm details of the planned trip to Benghazi and Cameron parried the question by saying: "Nicolas Sarkozy is full of good ideas."
quote:Russian President Dmitry Medvedev called on Muammar Gaddafi to give up power and said that Russia would not give shelter to the Libyan leader but other countries might.
Medvedev said he had sent an envoy to the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi on Friday as part of efforts to resolve the conflict. He said he hoped the envoy would have the opportunity to speak with both sides.
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May 27, 2011 16:08
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- Pedrophile
- Feb 25, 2011
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by angerbot
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Arabs sure know how to mourn.
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May 27, 2011 18:49
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Syria's made a huge effort over the past 5-6 years to reach out to countries like Qatar and Turkey in order to secure their regime internationally. The hard crackdown on the protests have likely irreparably damaged those relationships and will result in a further isolated Syria if al-Assad emerges victorious.
http://nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=274916 posted:
On Monday, a virulent Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Mouallem went on Syrian TV and railed and made threats against the European Union following its sanctions against the regime of Bashar al-Assad. Mouallem’s frustration was, in a way, understandable, as the ground under the regime he represents is shifting rapidly, and relations with its precious few friends outside Iran have deteriorated dramatically. Perhaps none of these reversals in friendships has been as sudden and curious, but also as telling of the geopolitical flux underway, as the rift with Qatar.
Over the last few years, the Assad regime had cultivated ties with a number of foreign players who were critical in helping it emerge from the international isolation imposed on it in 2005. Undoubtedly, the most important of these have been France, Turkey and Qatar.
It was France, after all, that first led Syria out of its isolation in 2008, when President Nicolas Sarkozy threw Assad a lifeline, inviting him to the Bastille Day celebrations and the EuroMed summit. Now, Paris is leading the European pack in sanctioning the Syrian president and his cronies. Similarly, Turkey under Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has invested deeply in Syria, and in Bashar al-Assad personally. The Turks have nevertheless been on the receiving end of Syrian ire for hosting a meeting of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood in April and for planning to host an even broader conference of the Syrian opposition later this month.
But perhaps most intriguing has been the case of Qatar, if only for the abruptness of the transformation in its relations with Damascus. Initially, Qatar’s formidable media tool – Al Jazeera – seemed to avoid in-depth, let alone critical, coverage of the uprising in Syria. This went with Doha’s traditional tailoring of its media coverage to suit its foreign policy priorities and alliances.
Then, seemingly out of the blue, Al Jazeera’s editorial attitude shifted. Journalistic sources speak of a directive from the higher-ups that effectively gave the green light to let loose. Al Jazeera’s coverage went beyond airing the graphic videos of Assad’s brutal assault against his people to hosting Syrian human rights activists and dissidents on its widely-viewed shows, at times facing – and shaming – apologists for the regime.
In addition, Al Jazeera hit Assad in a sensitive spot, turning his so-called “resistance” credentials against him, when former Arab Member of the Knesset Azmi Bishara – who until recently was feted in Damascus as a symbol of Arab resistance – criticized the regime, including Assad’s inheritance of power from his father, on the air and ridiculed its narrative depicting the uprising as a foreign conspiracy. As far as Assad is concerned, that Bishara, who resides in Doha, was allowed to use the Al Jazeera platform meant this was official Qatari policy.
But the worst offense from Assad’s perspective was when another Doha resident, and host of an Al Jazeera show, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, put his weight behind the anti-regime protests and also lashed out at Assad for treating Syria like “an estate” that he “inherited from [his] father.”
Qaradawi’s remarks in support of the uprising were a step too far, and the Syrian regime began blaming the sheikh for inciting the protests and sowing sedition in Syria. The episode led to a stormy meeting between Assad and the Qatari prime minister, Hamad bin Jassem, during which Assad reportedly warned that no further meetings would be held until Qatar apologized for Qaradawi’s statements. Moreover, Assad allegedly threatened the Prime Minister that Qatar could lose its $6 billion investments in Syria as a result of Al Jazeera’s policy.
The regime’s focus on Qaradawi may have revealed its deep fears. Aside from the undermining of its “resistance” image and beyond the possible sectarian undertones, Qaradawi’s statements highlighted broader geopolitical concerns.
After all, this is the sheikh who only a few months ago presided over a massive rally in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. And so, Qaradawi’s significance is related not only to his influence among the Muslim Brothers, but also to what his posture says about the possible foreign policy orientation of a post-Mubarak Egypt seeking to reassert itself on the Arab scene. If the past tells the Syrian rulers anything, Cairo’s resurgence will come at Damascus’ expense.
It can be argued that this is already playing out in an emerging Qatari-Egyptian rapprochement. For one, even as Assad has suspended Qatar’s $6 billion investment in projects in Syria, Doha’s ambassador to Cairo announced that a Qatari economic delegation will be visiting Egypt on Saturday to sign several agreements that would inject more than $10 billion in Qatari investments.
Moreover, although Hamas has denied it, rumors emerged in late April of Hamas relocating its offices from Damascus to Doha, and of its plans to open a new office in Cairo. This came around the same time that Egypt sponsored the inter-Palestinian reconciliation deal, and it signals a desire by Hamas to expand its options and explore the new opportunities in post-Mubarak Egypt. It also indicates a possible bid by Egypt to lay claim to Hamas – something sought by Turkey as well, which is now also opening its doors to the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood.
The unfolding regional dynamics, and their intersection with its domestic troubles, are doubtless a source of much consternation in Damascus. Almost a year ago, I wrote about Syria “falling back into its historical role as the land between greater powers to its east, north and south.” Now, the natural order of the Levant may be slowly restoring itself.
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May 27, 2011 18:51
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- Pedrophile
- Feb 25, 2011
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by angerbot
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Why would he have to leave on barefoot? He can just try to find a burned out poster of himself and I'm sure there will be plenty of shoes beneath it.
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May 27, 2011 19:01
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Not as pretty as the ones Brown Moses found of Libya, but a google maps marked map of Sana'a and the surrounding area with dots for protests, fighting, and air strikes.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...4,0.727158&z=11
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May 27, 2011 19:14
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- The X-man cometh
- Nov 1, 2009
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Xandu posted:
Stuff about Al-Jazeera's criticism of Syria
It didn't help that the Syrians arrested an Al-Jazeera reporter and refused to acknowledge anything about it until the Iranian government stepped in.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/05/201151853243951659.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/05/2011518184325620380.html
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May 27, 2011 20:50
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- Young Freud
- Nov 26, 2006
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I'm wondering if Ahmedinejad is trying this as some sort of international outreach for his regime, like blaming all the anti-Semitism on Khamenei.
Also, remember that Israel acted as an arms broker between the Americans and the Iranians early in the Iran-Contra affair. They sold TOWs the "moderate" Iranians (who they knew was really the Prime Minister of Iran), which they had to receive permission to do so from the United States to sell American military technology and then received reimbursement for the sale. Iranian-Israeli relations have always been complicated.
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May 27, 2011 21:23
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Things are weirdly quiet tonight, no reports of bombing in Tripoli, just some rumours of rebels attacking Brega backed by helicopters.
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May 27, 2011 23:28
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- Pedrophile
- Feb 25, 2011
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by angerbot
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Sure it has something to do with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_3soPkSf9k
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May 27, 2011 23:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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loving hell, pull your finger out NATO.
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May 27, 2011 23:53
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- Pedrophile
- Feb 25, 2011
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by angerbot
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Brown Moses posted:
loving hell, pull your finger out NATO.
I'm pretty sure the UN and NATO have lawyers going over the mandate and asking "Does this technically violate the mandate?"
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May 28, 2011 00:06
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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The AP posted an article about the mood in Tripoli:
quote:Young men waved their assault rifles in the air, spraying celebratory gunfire. Others let off fireworks. Drivers honked and leaned out of their cars waving green flags and chanting in support of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
The shaking cacophony of bangs and bullets one recent evening all served to camouflage the thin turnout at a pro-Gadhafi demonstration in his stronghold, the capital of Tripoli. Only several hundred showed up, and many seemed more interested in having fun than in showing solidarity with the regime.
Gauging the views of Tripoli's 1 million residents is difficult because of restrictions placed on journalists. But small signs, such as dwindling attendance at pro-regime demonstrations, suggest that support in the capital for Gadhafi's four-decade-long rule is on the wane.
Fewer appear willing to be human shields to protect Gadhafi's compound from NATO strikes. Brief gunbattles break out in some neighborhoods. There are whispers of dissent.
Authorities violently quelled protests in Tripoli against Gadhafi's rule early in the three-month-old rebellion. Soldiers, police and other armed men shot and killed demonstrators. They detained suspected protesters, and intelligence agents continue to keep a close watch on residents.
Rebels have had more success so far elsewhere in the country. They have seized swaths of eastern Libya, setting up a de facto capital in Benghazi. In western Libya, the rebels have a toehold in the port city of Misrata and cling to towns along a mountain range.
Tripoli has remained fairly quiet since the initial protests were crushed. Most residents seem focused on surviving through the rebellion, rather than taking sides.
If Tripoli ultimately falls, the cause of the regime's collapse may have less to do with advancing rebel armies than with NATO bombing raids and popular anger over rising food prices and long lines at the pump.
Since the uprising began in mid-February, food prices have soared. Vegetable oil rose from less than one Libyan dinar to four dinars. Pasta, a Libyan staple has risen from half a dinar to 2 dinars.
Oil production at Libya's major refineries is down to a trickle because of the fighting.
Outside gas stations in the capital, drivers wait two or three days on lines stretching for miles.
"Protest? People are too busy trying to get fuel," said a taxi driver of pro-Gadhafi demonstrations.
In some cases that anger is bubbling over.
In the coastal town of Zawiya, an hour's drive from Tripoli, crowds waiting for days for fuel attacked a minibus carrying journalists on a state-supervised trip to the Tunisian border.
A knife-wielding attacker pushed and slapped a government official in an attempt to board the minibus. The journalists were unharmed, but violence against a government official would have once been unimaginable in Libya.
In the first few weeks of the Libyan crisis, state television filmed thousands of demonstrators, and highways clogged with beeping cars in support of the leader.
Nowadays, far fewer show up at pro-regime gatherings.
In last week's demonstration in the center of Tripoli, car owners waiting in a miles-long line for gas at 3 a.m. barely paid attention to the drivers of a few dozen cars beeping and waving their green flags.
The scenes of maniacal devotion at the rally seemed to be a result of young men wanting to have fun rather a deeply felt commitment to the regime. They rushed wherever they saw bright television camera lights, wildly belly dancing, chanting and pumping their fists.
Another group of young men strutted past.
"Tell the truth!" one of them yelled at reporters, then adjusted his baseball cap.
"Hey!" he yelled at his buddies, "lets go chant against Al-Jazeera!"
They giggled and ran away.
There were similar scenes after NATO bombs struck two buildings on a residential Tripoli street last week.
Some two-dozen men chanted, clapped and danced in support of Gadhafi around the burning buildings. Close by, hundreds of residents stood and stared at the damage, ignoring the loud demonstrators.
Text messages sent to Libyan mobile phones last week informed residents that a funeral would be held for seven Muslim clerics who were slain in a "barbarian crusader attack" — a NATO airstrike — on a guest house in the oil port town of Brega.
Only a few hundred people, many of them soldiers, attended.
In the early days of the uprising, hundreds flooded to defend Gadhafi's compound, where human shields live in tents.
Night after night, state television broadcasts live from the compound, known as Bab al-Aziziya, showing people singing and dancing in a main square. But they rarely appear to number more than a few dozen.
Elsewhere, small signs of defiance are emerging.
Some Libyans, all on condition of anonymity, speak out against Gadhafi when government officials are out of sight.
"The regime is like a palm tree that has grown crooked," said an elderly Tripoli merchant, referring to a Libyan proverb. "All its dates have landed elsewhere," the merchant said. That was a reference to the country's wealth, which many here complain hasn't been distributed fairly.
One man pointed to his one-dinar note, sporting Gadhafi's face.
"No good," he said before quickly tucking the bill away.
On an outing for journalists last week, the owner or manager of a cafe quietly switched his television from blaring Al-Arabiya — a Saudi-owned news channel despised by the regime — to Libyan state TV when he saw the reporters approaching.
Presumably he thought government minders weren't far away.
Few pro-government Libyans cite adoration of Gadhafi to explain their stance. Instead, they say they worry about the country's stability.
A pharmacist said she lived well and thought the rebels were tearing the country apart. She was angry at NATO for the bombing raids that crash and boom almost every night in Tripoli. Speaking at the recent demonstration, a 28-year-old computer engineer who only gave his first name, Sufian, said he wanted security.
Another man, Riad Mansour, 35, said he feared Libya would "turn into another Palestine" — wrecked by occupation and internal instability.
But it seems many others in the capital hope Gadhafi will go, even as they sit on the sidelines.
"We have not seen the wealth of our land," said the elderly merchant. "We are poor and we should be wealthy. And it's his fault."
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May 28, 2011 11:50
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Live blogs May 28th
LibyaFeb17.com
Feb17.info
quote:The Libyan regime rejected calls on Friday by the G8 summit for Gaddafi to step down. and said any initiative to resolve the crisis would have to go through the African Union. “The G8 is an economic summit. We are not concerned by its decisions,” said Libya’s deputy foreign minister, Khaled Kaaim, after Russia joined NATO calls for Gaddafi’s departure. They also rejected Russian mediation and will “not accept any mediation which marginalises the peace plan of the African Union,” he said. “We are an African country. Any initiative outside the AU framework will be rejected.”
quote:Ben Wedeman tweets: CNN team in Tripoli reports big NATO airstrike in Tripoli this morning. First daytime strike in some time.
quote:Nima Elbagir tweets: “libya morning strike location is the same one #Nato has been hammering at for most of the last week. Nato to CNN: morning strike site – which has been hit multiple times – still operating as vehicle storage facility for attacks.”
quote:Officials in Tripoli say this morning’s blasts were inside Gaddafi’s compound, Bab al Aziziya. The explosions followed a fifth straight night of air strikes and signal a possible switch in tactics by the forces trying to end Colonel Gaddafi’s 41-year reign. “RAF Typhoons, along with other Nato aircraft, last night used precision guided weapons to bring down guard towers along the walls of Colonel Gaddafi’s Bab Al Aziziyah complex in the centre of Tripoli,” said Chief of the Defence Staff Strategic Communications Officer, said Major General John Lorimer.
quote:Latest Military Update in Libya
* NATO carried out a rare daytime air strike on Tripoli on Saturday after a fifth straight night of attacks.
* Russia joined Western powers in demanding Gaddafi’s departure.
* The United States believes Russia can help resolve the Libya crisis and will liaise with Moscow on the issue, a White House official said on Friday.
* The rebel-held town of Zintan came under intense rocket attack overnight from forces loyal to Gaddafi, foreign doctors who were working in the town told Reuters.
* NATO said it conducted 151 air sorties on Friday, 45 of them strike sorties that aim to identify and hit targets but do not always deploy munitions.
It said targets attacked on Friday included:
– One command and control facility in Tripoli
– One ammunition store in the vicinity of Sirte
– One ammunition store in the vicinity of Mizdah
– One rocket launcher, two truck-mounted guns in the vicinity of Misrata
– One ammunition storage facility in the vicinity of Hun
– Four surface-to-air missile launchers in the vicinity of Zintan
* Twenty ships under NATO command are patrolling the central Mediterranean Sea to enforce a U.N. arms embargo. On Thursday, 8 vessels were hailed to determine destination and cargo. Two were boarded but none diverted.
* Since the start of the arms embargo operations, 1,068 vessels have been hailed, 58 boarded and seven diverted.
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May 28, 2011 13:15
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- Rosscifer
- Aug 3, 2005
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Patience
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Pedrophile posted:
I'm pretty sure the UN and NATO have lawyers going over the mandate and asking "Does this technically violate the mandate?"
No. This keeps getting brought up. The mandate lets the coalition do whatever the heck they want to help Libyan civilians. It's that vague. "All necessary measures."
Pureauthor posted:
Do you guys think it would be better if Gaddafi was taken alive or if he ended up being killed during the attacks?
Depends who takes him alive. If he's taken by NATO special forces it would look like there was excessive outside interference. Likewise, if he's killed by a bomb. But a warcrimes trial would stretch out the transition and Libya needs to stop hearing about Gadaffi as soon as possible. The least painful transition would probably be afforded by a quick Ceausescu-esque trial by Libyans.
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May 28, 2011 13:25
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- Adbot
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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May 27, 2011 02:00
