Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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automatic: Nov 3, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Shiiiiit, with Saleh dead we could see some serious civil war poo poo going down.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 14:47

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# ? May 21, 2024 11:02

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I don't think anyone expected him to be killed like this, so quickly, so I doubt any of the groups involved are really prepared. I'm guessing the GCC will try to take control of the situation before it spirals out of control and Saudi Arabia ends up with a warzone on it's border.

The AP has just put up an article about yesterdays events:

quote:

Rebels in western Libya seize mountain towns
A rebel leader says his forces have seized two western mountain towns from Moammar Gadhafi's forces in a push toward the Libyan leader's stronghold in the capital, Tripoli.

Col. Jumaa Ibrahim of the Nafusa mountain military council says Yefren and Shakshuk, the site of a strategic power station, were freed the day before. Ibrahim says the rebel forces are still battling with Gadhafi forces over a small town at the base of the mountain. He said Friday "our aim is the capital."

The victories are a significant breakthrough for the rebels as they try to break Gadhafi's hold on the western half of the coastal nation. The rebels so far have mainly been centered in the east, leaving the two sides locked in a stalemate.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) � A series of at least 10 NATO strikes hit in and around the Libyan capital early on Friday, targeting military barracks close to Gadhafi's sprawling compound in central Tripoli, a police station and a military base, a government official said. It was not immediately clear if there were any casualties.

The strikes appeared to be the heaviest in Tripoli since South African President Jacob Zuma visited Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi in the capital earlier this week in an apparently unsuccessful effort to find a peaceful resolution to the country's crisis.

Also Friday, a U.N. official said the world body's refugee agency would meet later in the day with a Libyan woman who claimed she was gang-raped by Gadhafi's troops. She was deported Thursday from Qatar where she had sought refuge and was flown against her will to Benghazi, the official said. Benghazi is the Libyan rebels' de facto capital.

Speaking in Geneva, the official, Adrian Edwards, said his agency was with Iman el-Obeidi when she was taken from her Qatar hotel against her will. He said she is a recognized refugee, and her deportation violated international law.

U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner said the U.S. was "monitoring the situation" and working to ensure al-Obeidi's safety.

"We're concerned for her safety, given all that's happened to her. And we're going to work to make sure that she's kept safe, first and foremost, and that she finds appropriate asylum," Toner told reporters in Washington on Thursday.

In March, al-Obeidi rushed into Tripoli's Rixos Hotel where all foreign correspondents are forced to stay while covering the part of Libya under Gadhafi's control, and shouted out her story of being stopped at a a checkpoint, dragged away and gang-raped by soldiers. As she spoke emotionally and as photographers and reporters recorded her words, government minders, whose job is to escort reporters around the area, jumped her and dragged her away.

She disappeared for several days, then turned up in Tunisia and later Qatar. She was heard from little until Thursday, when she was suddenly expelled from Qatar and ended up in Benghazi, the Libyan rebels' de facto capital. No explanation was forthcoming from Qatar.

Rebel spokesman Jalal el-Gallal said al-Obeidi arrived in Benghazi by plane. "She's welcome to stay, this is her country," el-Gallal told The Associated Press.

Libyan authorities have alternately labeled al-Obeidi a drunk, a prostitute and a thief.

Al-Obeidi has maintained that she was targeted by Gadhafi's troops because she is from Benghazi, the rebel stronghold. Her rape claim could not be independently verified. The Associated Press identifies only rape victims who volunteer their names.

Human rights violations are one aspect of the rebels' complaints against the Gadhafi regime. This week a report by a U.N. body said it found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity by Gadhafi's government, and also charged that the rebels have committed abuses.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry said Friday that China's ambassador to Qatar recently met with the head of Libya's rebel council, the first known meeting between the two sides. China abstained in the U.N. Security Council vote authorizing NATO military action in Libya.

Four of the early morning blasts Friday shook central Tripoli, targeting an area where military barracks are located, said a government official, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with government policy. Those barracks, which had been hit in the past, are close to Gadhafi's sprawling compound.

Six earlier strikes targeted a police station and a military base outside the capital in the areas of Hera and Aziziya, said the official.

The conflict in Libya is nearly four months along, but the situation on the ground appears mostly stalemated. NATO airstrikes have kept the outgunned rebels from being overrun, but the rebels have been unable to mount an effective offensive against Gadhafi's better equipped armed forces.

Gadhafi's regime has been slowly crumbling from within. A significant number of army officers and several Cabinet ministers have defected, and most have expressed support for the opposition, but Gadhafi's hold on power shows little sign of loosening.

Gadhafi has been seen in public rarely and heard even less frequently since a NATO airstrike on his compound killed one of his sons on April 30. Questions are arising about the physical and mental state of the 69-year-old dictator, who has ruled Libya since 1969.

Rebels have turned down initiatives calling for cease-fires, insisting that Gadhafi and his sons must relinquish power and leave the country.

I like how they call it a stalemate, and at the same time say the rebels have had a significant victory.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jun 3, 2011

# ? Jun 3, 2011 14:48

Ghetto Prince: Sep 11, 2010; got to be mellow, y'all

2ndclasscitizen posted:

What are the ramifications if he has been killed?

Dancing in the streets?

# ? Jun 3, 2011 14:56

automatic: Nov 3, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

I don't think an impending civil war based on resource (water) scarcity and tribal divisions is really something to dance about.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 15:17

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

2ndclasscitizen posted:

What are the ramifications if he has been killed? Judging by the events leading up to it it seems as though there could still be some serious conflict for control of the country.

More likely it would result in a quick transition of power to the Hashids. I don't think it's true though.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 16:15

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Two hours have passed since they announced they'd be making a statement in an hour, another bad sign for the Yemeni government.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 16:28

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Brown Moses posted:

I like how they call it a stalemate, and at the same time say the rebels have had a significant victory.

The two aren't exactly mutually exclusive. If the rebels score a massive victory, followed by the loyalists moving back to a position that they can not attack from, or lose, then both are true.

I'm not agreeing with it being a stalemate, I'm just saying that both are technically possible at the same time.

Also, there were quite a few airstrikes near Tripoli today. Could they be gearing up for something big?

# ? Jun 3, 2011 16:35

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Yeah, there were more airstrikes around Tripoli, although it still does seem to be mainly comms centres and vehicle and ammo stores. The UK Military Ops Twitter feed just mentioned they destroyed two APCs and two Tanks heading towards Yefren yesterday, so hopefully they'll be making sure the rebels in that area are getting enough support to hold the cities. If the rebels can secure that whole area and fortify it then they'll pretty much have a giant fortress.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 16:41

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Consensus seems to be that Saleh was injured in the attack on the presidential palace's mosque and taken to the hospital for burn damage on his face. The government has walked back its claim that Saleh will give a speech tonight, the deputy information minister al-Janadi did instead.

The Hashid tribe is also heavily denying they were involved in the attack, despite earlier intense clashes between them and Saleh. That leaves Saleh's defected soldiers, basically, although it's not like RPGs are a rarity in Yemen. Whoever did it has shown no interest in claiming credit though.

Pentagon briefing also revealed there's still about 100 US military trainers in Yemen for al Qaeda, though it's not clear what they are doing. They've denied any US-trained forces were involved in attacks on protesters.

Congress is also pretty pissed about Libya, and HoR is close to passing a resolution demanding more info about the strikes and US involvement.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 18:42

Mad Doctor Cthulhu: Mar 3, 2008

Brown Moses posted:

Two hours have passed since they announced they'd be making a statement in an hour, another bad sign for the Yemeni government.

At this point, it's pretty much a sign that if he's still living he won't be physically able to be the president.

Xandu posted:

Consensus seems to be that Saleh was injured in the attack on the presidential palace's mosque and taken to the hospital for burn damage on his face. The government has walked back its claim that Saleh will give a speech tonight, the deputy information minister al-Janadi did instead.

The Hashid tribe is also heavily denying they were involved in the attack, despite earlier intense clashes between them and Saleh. That leaves Saleh's defected soldiers, basically, although it's not like RPGs are a rarity in Yemen. Whoever did it has shown no interest in claiming credit though.

Pentagon briefing also revealed there's still about 100 US military trainers in Yemen for al Qaeda, though it's not clear what they are doing. They've denied any US-trained forces were involved in attacks on protesters.

Congress is also pretty pissed about Libya, and HoR is close to passing a resolution demanding more info about the strikes and US involvement.

So instead of getting a dictatorship shooting its own citizens, we're going to have more than two groups possibly maneuvering for power in the absence of the current leader. Crap.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 19:24

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

There's lots of disparate groups in Yemen right now with their own motivations and goals (the Hashid tribe, the actual protesters, the JMP, the defected ministers/soldiers) but the force pushing Yemen towards civil war has been Saleh. If he left, things would calm down by quite a bit.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 19:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Still no sign of Saleh, there's rumours he received wounds to the neck, and the Guardian has this piece about what the attack on the palace means:

quote:

Yemen: attack on president keeps observers guessing
I started this morning planning to write a general blog post about Yemen, but events took a dramatic turn this afternoon � and are still developing. Let's start with the official version. The presidential palace in Yemen was hit by shells on Friday. Government sources said at first that President Saleh was unhurt and would be giving a news conference within an hour.

The news conference didn't happen and the new line seems to be that the president has been slightly injured and is now in hospital.

At present, there is no way of knowing if this is true. Being taken to hospital could explain why Saleh hasn't given the promised news conference. So would being killed. We can't be absolutely sure that Saleh is still alive until he is seen on television talking about what happened.

If he were dead, Yemeni officials wouldn't necessarily say so until the resulting power vacuum had been filled. Similarly, if his injuries were serious, officials might still be expected to describe them as slight.

The only thing we can be sure of is that he is not uninjured � otherwise he would have been on television by now, describing his escape. Saying that he is in hospital provides the regime with a sort of holding position which in due course will allow for him to either recover or get worse.

So, what does this mean for the Yemeni uprising?

In what might be the best scenario for Yemen's future, Saleh would be seriously injured but not dead. In fact, sufficiently injured for the doctors to decide that he needs urgent treatment abroad.

Flying him out of the country for medical reasons would provide a near-perfect exit from the crisis. The vice-president could take over and Yemen could begin to calm down. It's unlikely that anyone would want Saleh back if or when he recovered.

Probably the worst scenario would be a lightly-wounded president who returns to the fray within a day or two, with renewed ferocity, to wreak his revenge.

The least predictable scenario would be if Saleh has actually been killed. In theory, his vice-president should step into the breach while new elections are arranged, but there would also be a possibility of a power struggle behind the scenes if his death were concealed for long.

Whichever of these turns out to be correct, Yemen badly needs a solution soon. It's not just the violence � which hopefully will subside once Saleh goes � but the impending economic collapse. Whatever happens on the political front, the repercussions of that will be felt for years to come.

Shops and restaurants are closing, queues for petrol are lengthening, electricity supplies are erratic and people are hoarding basic supplies (including even water) according to a report in the New York Times.

Nobody is quite sure how much money the country and its government still have left. Tax collection has come more or less to a halt. Saleh, who needs to continue paying his supporters, is said to have been demanding multimillion dollar loans from Yemeni businessmen. Diplomats have also been enquiring about rumours that he has raided the coffers of the Central Bank.

There's also some unconfirmed reports that the first truck of aid has arrived in Yefren, which must mean the rebels control a route back to the Tunisian border.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 3, 2011

# ? Jun 3, 2011 19:51

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Guardian is reporting Saleh is giving an audio only statement on State TV. Apparently it was short, just three lines, and his voice was described as "pained and gurgling", if it sounded like him at all.
[edit] Bit more from the Guardian:

quote:

Yemen's state television has played what appears to be an audio tape of President Ali Abdullah Saleh, speaking about the attack that killed several of his guards and associates.

Saleh's injuries were said to be minor, and on the recording he said that seven people were killed, and labelled the attackers "a bunch of thugs" according to a brief translation offered by Al-Jazeera English.

Al-Jazerra's correspondent says that Saleh's voice is tired compared to his usual tone, that he may have suffered a serious injury and wasn't speaking in clear sentences.

Here's the latest map of events from Libya:

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jun 3, 2011

# ? Jun 3, 2011 20:03

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Brown Moses posted:

Someone just posted this on Twitter, it's a map of who controls which towns and cities:

A lot of those towns are really tiny, that's why there are so many.

Bir Ayyid, just north of Yefren on the above map, is apparently cleared of Gaddafi forces.

Jadu, west of Yefren, repelled a Gaddafi attack, and captured some 4x4's and weapon and ammo trucks. Jadu has also had it's mobile phone network and electricity supply restored.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 20:27

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Jenan Moussa is have a hard think on Twitter:

quote:

Let's think logically about it! Imam in mosque declared dead then not dead. #Saleh must be praying in front row behind Imam.
Saleh's guards, who must be standing closing to him, are dead.
Then it must only be safe to say that #Saleh is heavily wounded... in best case scenarios.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 21:08

Heran Bago: Aug 18, 2006

Back in 2009 Iran shut off their internet and college students swarmed to proxies. I set up some small Windows program that shared my connection with several Iranians and Chinese people for http only.

I'd like to set up a proxy of this sort again but the only information I can find on creating one's own proxy server are formal/classic actual servers. Any advice or ideas on what that program was? I can set up a proxy but handing out the IP to people who can actually use it is beyond me.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 21:55

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Saleh probably staged this "attack" himself, definitely wouldn't put it past him.

Ham fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jun 3, 2011

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:02

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

I really don't think Salehs possible death would quiet down things in Yemen, Xandu. There seem to be too many groups which would contest violently with any central government not under their control. Sure you can point to some very serious efforts to maintain peaceful protests, but I think there are enough armed groups willing to fight to break things down further. Yuan Shikai is dead, long live the warlords.

Of course that's not really an accurate parallel, but Xandu I'm not sure what you see in the situation that suggests further violent escalation from competing groups when Saleh is removed.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:04

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

There are, but a lot of those groups, whether al Qaeda, the Houthis, or the secessionists, have been doing so for years. It wouldn't be much of a change for them to keep fighting and none of them have been particularly active during this revolution (al Qaeda kind of took over a small town, but the Yemeni government has never had much control over the periphery). The groups currently fighting in Sana'a, I don't see them violently contesting a new government if Saleh leaves, most of them would benefit much more from stability.

Ham posted:

Saleh probably staged this "attack" himself, definitely wouldn't put it beyond him.

He sounded pretty bad in his speech, though.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:09

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Heran Bago posted:

Back in 2009 Iran shut off their internet and college students swarmed to proxies. I set up some small Windows program that shared my connection with several Iranians and Chinese people for http only.

I'd like to set up a proxy of this sort again but the only information I can find on creating one's own proxy server are formal/classic actual servers. Any advice or ideas on what that program was? I can set up a proxy but handing out the IP to people who can actually use it is beyond me.

https://www.torproject.org/
Their blog also has some interesting reports on how Iran/Egypt etc go about attempting to block them and how they respond.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:11

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Here's a good video from CNN from the area west of Misrata.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:16

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

This isn't to say Yemen will turn into some nice, peaceful, and successful country, but I don't think the fighting would ramp up if Saleh leaves.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:16

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Xandu posted:

There are, but a lot of those groups, whether al Qaeda, the Houthis, or the secessionists, have been doing so for years. It wouldn't be much of a change for them to keep fighting and none of them have been particularly active during this revolution (al Qaeda kind of took over a small town, but the Yemeni government has never had much control over the periphery). The groups currently fighting in Sana'a, I don't see them violently contesting a new government if Saleh leaves, most of them would benefit much more from stability.

They have, but the death of Saleh would be a straight-up, old-fashioned, succession crisis. In such circumstances the existence of established separatist and rebel groups aren't the same old threat but instead newly re-empowered actors who suddenly feel now is the time to push hardest while the center is in absolute disarray. Looking at the collapse of governments, it becomes readily apparent that there are circumstances where crises create other crises as everyone seeks to grab what they can from the collapse... I think Yemen's headed in that direction.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:21

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's claims of a protest made up of 100's of people in the Ben Ashour District of Tripoli tonight, from the Tripoli rebels Twitter account, they said they are trying to upload some photos.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 22:24

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Amused to Death posted:

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to an organization actually at least covering the problem of rape in a region where to convict a rapist you often need multiple witnesses who have to be men.

Just want to point out that this is a misunderstanding of Islamic law. You need four witnesses (who have literally witnessed the act) to prove a case of zina, or adultery (which is a crime for both parties). This is usually interpreted to mean that the (very) harsh punishment for zina is meant to be more of a public indecency thing rather than an issue of private morality. Rape is more complicated, and is often a sort of he said she said thing, so in the absence of overwhelming proof (especially before the advent of rape kits and DNA testing and stuff, i.e. most of Islamic history) both parties would just walk away from the situation because the court couldn't make a determination.

The problem is that Saudi Arabia has such innovative (from a legal perspective) restrictions on the movement and associations of women that if a woman claims she was raped she is admitting that she was in the company of men who weren't her family, which is criminalized, so she'll get punished for that, and since rape can be difficult to determine (and you bet your rear end the loving Saudi authorities don't bend over backwards with their rape kits), the man often gets no punishment. This is where people get the idea that women are punished for being raped under Islamic law, when in fact the issue is that women are often punished in addition to being raped under Saudi law. They are the worst. لعن الله آل سعود

In Pakistan after the introduction of elements of Islamic law into the colonial-era legal system they defined rape as zina bil-jabr or "adultery by force" which made proving rape require 4 witnesses in contrast to the historical standard of Islamic law, which relied on the woman's testimony. That's probably where the idea of witnesses to prove rape came from.

# ? Jun 3, 2011 23:26

Nuclear Spoon: Aug 18, 2010; I want to cry out
but I don’t scream and I don’t shout
And I feel so proud
to be alive

Kenning posted:

Just want to point out that this is a misunderstanding of Islamic law. You need four witnesses (who have literally witnessed the act) to prove a case of zina, or adultery (which is a crime for both parties). This is usually interpreted to mean that the (very) harsh punishment for zina is meant to be more of a public indecency thing rather than an issue of private morality. Rape is more complicated, and is often a sort of he said she said thing, so in the absence of overwhelming proof (especially before the advent of rape kits and DNA testing and stuff, i.e. most of Islamic history) both parties would just walk away from the situation because the court couldn't make a determination.

The problem is that Saudi Arabia has such innovative (from a legal perspective) restrictions on the movement and associations of women that if a woman claims she was raped she is admitting that she was in the company of men who weren't her family, which is criminalized, so she'll get punished for that, and since rape can be difficult to determine (and you bet your rear end the loving Saudi authorities don't bend over backwards with their rape kits), the man often gets no punishment. This is where people get the idea that women are punished for being raped under Islamic law, when in fact the issue is that women are often punished in addition to being raped under Saudi law. They are the worst. لعن الله آل سعود

In Pakistan after the introduction of elements of Islamic law into the colonial-era legal system they defined rape as zina bil-jabr or "adultery by force" which made proving rape require 4 witnesses in contrast to the historical standard of Islamic law, which relied on the woman's testimony. That's probably where the idea of witnesses to prove rape came from.

This was actually a really informative post, thanks!

# ? Jun 3, 2011 23:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Shabab Libya just published this press release:

quote:

To whom it may concern,
It is our pleasure to announce on Friday the 3rd of June at 2100 hrs Libyan Time that the North Western route into Yefren via Ber Ayad is now open. This route connects the region of Yefren to Zintan and there after to Tunisia. This route is now open to the World press and humanitarian aid as well as a path which secures the exit of civilians.
The security of the route is at Orange Alert (Highlighting a potential attack) and requires NATO air support to protect the humanitarian route. The region of Yefren and the Nafusa mountains is threatened by the below co-ordinates:

Al Galaa

A. Almliab forest (VERY IMPORTANT)

Position: 31�58�38.03″N, 12�40�26.62″E

Site: on left hand side when going from Gharian to Nalut on motorway.

Force: Large force including at least 4 tanks, grad, ammunition, personnel, etc. It is the main army supply to the area (substation) for forces heading west.

Method of observation: eyewitness

Time: Friday, June 3rd

B.Command and Control centre at Almliab forest

Position(s):

31�58�59.04″N, 12�40�30.84″E

31�58�58.35″N, 12�40�32.39″E

31�58�57.80″N, 12�40�33.29″E

31�58�57.84″N, 12�40�34.21″E

Site: Almliab scouting camp and agriculture centre.

Force: Command and control is highly suspected to be in one or more of the 4 buildings given above.

Observation: eyewitness

Time: Friday, June 3rd

Yefren

A. Forest near Awiniya

Position: 31o59�00.84� N, 12o29�36.16� E

31o59�05.29� N, 12o29�34.24� E

31o58�56.64� N, 12o30�45.62� E

31o59�00.49� N, 12o30�44.18� E

Site: Forest on both sides of Gharian-Nalut road near to Awiniya village

Force: Large army force with various equipment and personnel

Method of observation: Telescope

Time: Friday June, 3

B. New Man-Made River Company camp

Position: 31o58�58.49� N, 12o30�09.92� E

Site: A new camp that was used by Man-made river company

Force: Missile launcher

Method of observation: telescope (Sand/smoke in air was seen)

Time: Friday June,3

The brutality of the Gaddafi forces in these regions and in all Libyan regions must not go unimpeded. We implore upon the Libyan people and the Libyan free communities, the UN, the LNTC, NATO and all international humanitarian agencies involved to continue to uphold the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 and take all necessary action to protect civilian lives and to free all regions of Libya from this human disaster.

Regards,

Abdo. Al Herrari

Libyan Humanitarian Coordinator

Libyan Youth Movement � Tripoli and Yefren Region (cities of Yefren, Al-Galaa and Kekkla)

# ? Jun 4, 2011 00:05

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Kenning posted:

لعن الله آل سعود

آمين to that.

Have the Qataris provided any sort of justification for deporting Iman el-Obeidi?

# ? Jun 4, 2011 01:00

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Brown Moses posted:

Shabab Libya just published this press release:

I presume that means that they've cleared the areas around Zinten then, right? That route is pretty long, so that means they probably cleared all the towns near it.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 02:20

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

NATO launches helicopter strikes in Libya

quote:

NATO has for the first time used attack helicopters in Libya, striking military vehicles, military equipment and forces backing embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi, the military alliance has annouced.

"Attack helicopters under NATO command were used for the first time on 4 June 2011 in military operations over Libya as part of Operation Unified Protector," NATO said in a statement on Saturday.

"The targets struck included military vehicles, military equipment and fielded forces" of the Gaddafi regime, said the statement, without detailing exactly where the strikes had taken place.

�This successful engagement demonstrates the unique capabilities brought to bear by attack helicopters,� Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, commander in chief of the NATO mission in Libya, said.

�We will continue to use these assets whenever and wherever needed, using the same precision as we do in all of our missions," he added.

France was contributing four Tigre attack helicopters for the NATO operation while Britain offered four Apaches, officials said, adding that the helicopters were being prepared to fly over sea and desert conditions.

Major advance

quote:

The NATO offensive came as Libyan opposition fighters made a major advance towards the capital, Tripoli after claiming victory in western Libyan towns against forces loyal to leader Muammar Gaddafi.

An opposition military leader said on Friday that local fighters won control of four towns in the western Nafusa mountain range, where government forces had besieged and randomly shelled rebel-held areas for months.

Fighters who had fled then used their knowledge of the area to chip away at the government forces, Colonel Jumaa Ibrahim of the region's rebel military council told the Associated Press news agency via Skype.

"They know all the hills and valleys, so they were able to trick the brigades and destroy some of their vehicles," he said.

Meeting with rebels

quote:

Meanwhile, the Chinese foreign ministry said that China's ambassador to Qatar recently met with the head of Libya's opposition council, the first known meeting between the two sides.

A Chinese foreign ministry statement said Zhang Zhiliang, Beijing's ambassador to Qatar, had met and "exchanged views on developments in Libya" with Mustafa Abdel Jalil, the chairman of the rebel council that is trying to offer itself as a credible temporary alterative to Gaddafi.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 06:06

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

Lascivious Sloth posted:

NATO launches helicopter strikes in Libya

Now that's something to watch closely! If reports are true and the Brit Apaches are over Brega, an easier target environment than Misrata or Tripolitania, there might be stuff happening. If/when Brega falls, the best-supplied & most numerous & less-experienced rebel force could be in a good position to push through to El Agheila, Ras Lanuf, Sidrah, Nawfaliyah, Harawiyah and... Sirte?

Interesting analysis:

Foreign Policy posted:

Libyan Limbo � Six reasons why it�s been so tough to get Gaddafi to quit

About oil:

Reuters posted:

Libya rebels are not revising oil deals

About money

New York Times posted:

Rebel Libya Finance Chief Hunts for Funds and Hope

Qadhafi Ammo dump

Royal Air Force posted:

Goes BOOM, you bloody wanker

ecureuilmatrix fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jun 4, 2011

# ? Jun 4, 2011 07:04

Sneakums: Nov 27, 2007; MAXIMUM.SNEAK.

quadratic posted:

آمين to that.

Have the Qataris provided any sort of justification for deporting Iman el-Obeidi?

Not really, though here's what Google Translate thinks Al Jazeera has on it:

(from http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2854885C-9F74-45A5-A72A-1CE44B7B95D2.htm)

Google Translate of Aljazeera.net posted:

Condemned the UN High Commissioner for Refugees United Nations Qatar to remove them citizenship Libyan Arab Jamahiriya said that the members of the Brigades, the Libyan Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, tortured her and raped her, while Washington expressed its disappointment about it.

Said Adrian Edwards, spokesman for UNHCR in a press conference in Geneva, The fact that Qatar on keeping faith in the Libyan al-Obeidi to Libya in violation of international law, and noted that the Agency approved the UN refugee status enjoyed by the al-Obeidi.

The Commission said that al-Obeidi and arrived Thursday evening to Benghazi in eastern Libya, and the Commission will make all efforts to ensure their rights and their families.

A spokesman for the National Transition Council in Benghazi, the Organization for Human Rights Watch that he had nothing to do with the return of al-Obeidi is enforced and that they have freedom to travel.

The report quoted Ahmed Jibril, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs of the Transitional Council as saying that "faith-Obeidi, have absolute freedom to move inside or outside the country and her freedom to meet with the media and non-governmental organizations and other organizations."

Obeidi was provided on the ninth of May last to Qatar in order to preserve its integrity.

Disappointment
The United States expressed its disappointment at the news of removal of al-Obeidi. He said State Department spokesman Mark Toner said that "Americans Msowlin asked Qatar to allow the servants to travel with officials from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees to a safe third country".

Toner said, "Accordingly, I have felt disappointed by forcing them to return, and we believe that this is a violation of humanitarian norms."

Obeidi was entered on 26 March last Rixos Hotel in Tripoli, and revealed to reporters on the sores and scars, saying that she was tortured and raped in the hands of men of the Libyan regime.

Searching for Iman Al-Obeidy shows that Al-Jazeera has been covering her moves, and lately the deportation.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 08:22

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

More detail about the helicopter strikes

bbc posted:

UK Apache attack helicopters have been used over Libya for the first time, Nato has confirmed.

They attacked and destroyed two military installations, a radar site and an armed checkpoint near Brega, the Captain of HMS Ocean told the BBC.

The Apaches are understood to have faced incoming fire.

French Gazelle helicopters also took part in simultaneous attacks on different targets in Libya for the first time.

On Wednesday, Nato extended its mission in Libya by 90 days.

Major General Nick Pope, the chief of the defence staff's strategic communications officer, said:"The Apaches were tasked with precision strikes against a regime radar installation and a military checkpoint, both located around Brega.

"Hellfire missiles and 30mm cannon were used to destroy the targets. The helicopters then returned safely to HMS Ocean."

He said the targets had been "carefully and rigorously selected" and said intelligence about the positions of the Gaddafi forces had been improving "despite their efforts to conceal themselves".

Defence Secretary Liam Fox added: "The attack helicopter is yet another potent and formidable aircraft type which has now been added to the Nato forces engaged on this operation. Those who are still supporting Colonel Gaddafi would do well to realise that the best way to remove themselves from danger is to understand that their future lies with the Libyan people, not a discredited regime."

Two of the four Apaches on board HMS Ocean left under the cover of darkness. From the ship you can see the lights on Libya's coast.

This was a mission that would signal an escalation in the bombing campaign. It would also come with added risks.

The Apaches fly lower and slower than other Nato warplanes - able to identify a wider range of targets, but also more vulnerable to attacks from the ground.

The former head of the Army, Lord Dannatt, said the move has an "inevitable intensification".

"If you pick up the words from when President Obama was visiting, what we've heard the prime minister say, we don't want to let this thing linger on any more than we absolutely have to.

"The mission under UNHCR 1973 is quite clear, it's to protect people but of course the implied task, and let's be absolutely open and honest about it, is the removal of Colonel Gaddafi."
Missile risk

The decision to send four British Apache helicopters to Libya was made by Prime Minister David Cameron on 27 May.

Their deployment via HMS Ocean means there should be less chance of civilian casualties in operations that previously relied on the use of Tornado and Typhoon aircraft.

But the Apaches operate at lower altitudes and could be targeted by Libyan forces loyal to Col Gaddafi, which still have access to thousands of surface-to-air missiles

# ? Jun 4, 2011 10:23

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Guardian is saying the French helicopters destroyed 15 vehicles, and 5 military command buildings, in other areas of Libya, hopefully near Zliten.
I'm guessing the Gaddafi forces in Brega are seriously considering their options at this point in time, they are pretty much sitting ducks.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 10:46

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Armored vehicles being seen used in Taiz.

I'm also seeing a few reports on twitter from Taiz residents that an armed group has started fighting back against the army there and is winning, which hasn't happened before there.

There's various reports that Yemeni officials injured in yesterday's attack are being moved to Saudi Arabia for treatment, but the government just denied that the president left.

A 400-man unit has also defected from the regime to join Ali Mohsin's soldiers.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 12:08

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

So were the french were using Gazelles or Tigres ? Both it seems, according to pictures from last night.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 12:21

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

pylb posted:

So were the french were using Gazelles or Tigres ? Both it seems, according to pictures from last night.

If that's what I think it is (the remains of Qaddafi regime infantry forces), that's definitely the 30mm gun on the Tiger being used here.

Of course, I have no sense of scale or clarity what I'm looking at in that picture, so it could be something else.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 12:26

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Xandu posted:

but the government just denied that the president left.

I just noticed that the original source for the claim the president left Yemen was al-Arabiya, run by the Saudi government. It sounds like a bullshit rumor, but you know never.

edit: \/\/\/\/\/ he's not the 2nd in command, but yeah.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jun 4, 2011

# ? Jun 4, 2011 12:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

As a bit of an aside there's claims from the Pakistani government that the Al Qaeda second in command (after bin Laden) was killed in a drone strike.

Here's a British pilot talking about last nights strikes :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13653032

# ? Jun 4, 2011 12:34

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# ? May 21, 2024 11:02

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

pylb posted:

So were the french were using Gazelles or Tigres ? Both it seems, according to pictures from last night.

The tubes on the Gazelle's wing stubs are HOT-3 missile launchers. The box above the cockpit is the Viviane thermal imaging system, so it can fire its missiles to 4km at night. Libyan army stands no chance. The Tiger can carry more Hellfires which also have twice the range, and it's all around better protected anyway. But it also appears that they're loading unguided rockets onto the Tiger, so it seems that they're not afraid to get close enough to the enemy forces to release them, rather than just sniping from the distance. This means that they're hitting targets known to be less protected (like fuel depots) and/or they know the enemy air defences don't match their counter-measures and tactics. Let's hope they're right - attack helicopters can fail even on their own.

# ? Jun 4, 2011 13:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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