- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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ecureuilmatrix posted:
The Ghadames rumor is very interesting not just because of the border link to Algeria that has been open to the regime but also because it's Tuareg territory and might mean estrangement from Grad-affi.
I did not expect the Zawiyans to be able to mount a second insurrection after the first was crushed. If some fighting men managed to flee to the mountains, that would be great news; they weren't all killed or captured back then. An alliance from the mountains to the sea would be a good position.
What happened to those troops that were bombing the Nafusas from the plains? If the Nafusans did truly reach the coastal rebels, they had to go through their enemies somewhere. If they hold the Bir Ayyad to (Zawiya and/or Surman) road(s), does that mean they've cut off those troops to the west? Or did they retreat?
Eh, there is now a wikipedia page for the Battle of Zliten. If the Misratans can reach the denser areas, their city-fight experience could be applied and anything outside west of town can get NATOed.
More from Libya, sounds like a huge day
quote:@KC_Tripolitania: More #Gaddafi tanks leaving Alma'moora Preserves factory from AlZahra Road, heading to #Zawiya-tables are turning but it's not over yet! quote:@LibyanInMe: Suleiman Dogha: Zawiya, Zliten, Serman, Sabha, Misrata, Nafusa Mountains, and Tripoli are all protesting and fighting today quote:@Tripoliatan: Almost 2 dozen killed in #Zawiya today - fighting ongoing. quote:@LibyanProud: #Sebha : Reports of several areas protesting , clashes , arrests ! (fb quote:@HafeedAlmukhtar: Urgent from Libya Alharar TV: #Gaddafi sending troops via boat to attack #Zawiya" quote:@ChangeInLibya: Obari FFs (the Twaregs) have managed to take control of the city of Obari in the south of Libya. quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: Breaking: Bombardment on Dafniyah front has resumed once again according to reports. Sporadic clashes between FF & G forces. quote:@Ellebi: Via FB Group: More than 30 FF have died as a result of ongoing fighting in #Zawiyah. More than 6 tanks destroyed by FF quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: NATO jets are flying over Misrata right now according to eyewitnesses quote:@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: BREAKING: The town of Matrad west of Zawiya is completely under FF control & Gaddafi forces ran away from Al Harsha quote:@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: Reports that over 4000 well armed FF arrived from Nafousa over the last week and are now fighting alongside Zawiya's people quote:@LibyanProud: BREAKING : #NAFUSA Freedom Fighters are sounding a group of gaddafi forces in the outskirts of #Zawiya quote:@LibyanProud: #NAFUSA : More freedom fighter reinforcements have arrived at Undisclosed Location for advance on #Zawiya . Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 11, 2011
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Jun 11, 2011 18:16
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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May 21, 2024 11:47
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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NATO sortie news, which seems rather unimportant on a day like this:
quote:On June 10th, NATO aircraft flew 131 sorties, including 49 strike sorties. Some of the key targets included:
In the vicinity of Tripoli:. 1 Military Camp 1 Vehicle Storage and Maintenance Facility 14 Tanks,1 Military Vehicle.
In the vicinity of Ras Lanuf: 1 Comand and Control Node, 2 Radars, 1 Radar Facility.
In the vicinity of Waddan: 3 Artillery Units.
In vicinity of Misratah: 1 Tank, 1 Rocket Launcher, 2 Armed Vehicles,1 Technical Vehicle.
More from Twitter, seems the rebels are going to try and finish this with NATOs help:
quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: No casualties arrived to hospitals today, and hospitals are quiet. However, there is bombardment in Dafniya now. quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: The farms between Dafniyah and between Tuesday Market in Zliten are damaged and some are on fire due to bombardment quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: We know from eyewitnesses that there are big clashes in Zliten and Gaddafi forces have completely surrounded hospitals there quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: These hospitals are surrounded by Gaddafi forces to prevent injured FF & civilians from gtting treated in Zliten quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: We can also confirm that there are clashes in Zawiya and big battles in the western side of Libya right now quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: The rockets that fell on Misrata today are little compared to yesterday and Misrata civilians suffered no casualties today quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: AJA: Freedom fighters are still holding their positions at the outskirts of Misrata (Dafniyah/TuesdayMarket) quote:@cameragimp: The menacing sound of jets above Tripoli, perhaps a busy night to come. quote:@live2Tripoli: The @NATO strike on #Alghezaia seems to be an intimidation one. NATO flew over again a few times. Some #Muammar's forces tried to leave... quote:@live2Tripoli: ..Which resulted in other personnel of #Muammar's forces to fire at them. Basically they had their own private skirmish. quote:@dovenews: The Free Libya Army have sent a highly trained team which received training in #Jadu & #Zintan to #Sibratah #Surman & #Zawyiah. quote:@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: FB/Unconfirmed reports that the oil refinery is now under FF control after clashes between FF & Gaddafi forces quote:@ChangeInLibya: Tripoli: Big increase in Gaddafi army checkpoints around the city quote:@EndTyranny101: Freedom Fighters in #Zawiyah captured 17 soldiers from forces loyal to Gaddafi on Saturday during a fierce battle ... quote:@dovenews: BREAKING! #Gaddafi forces are sending boats from #Almaia in an attempt to free their own forces who are surrounded by FF's in #Zawyiah.
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Jun 11, 2011 18:47
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Ballz posted:
Was it ever confirmed about the "cleansing" that supposedly took place in Zawiyah early in the revolution? I imagine something like that probably wouldn't be until mass graves are ultimately found in the area.
It's never been confirmed outside of rebel sources, but who knows, Zawiyah could be under rebel control before anyone could have imagined. Here's a bunch more updates:
quote:@walidshaari: AJA: #Nato #helicopters attacking #Gadhafi militias in #Zawiya quote:@dovenews: UPDATE: G forces sent Gunboats from the Military Academy in #Almaia in an attmpt 2 free their own forces who R surrounded by FFs in #Zawyiah quote:@dovenews: The number of civilian's death in #Zawiyah is more thn 30 ppl as result of G forces attack on the city wth tanks, rocket launchers & mortars quote:@LibyaInMe: Zliten: Very quiet now. Mass detaining of civilians & Gaddafi besieged the city again. FFs trying to regain themselves. No signs of NATO quote:@dovenews: The shelling & fighting is still going on, #FF destroyed 6 tanks & the number of G forces who got killed is increasing. #Zawyiah quote:@LibyaInMe: NATO planes are now bombing Qaddafi forces around city of Zawiya quote:@ChangeInLibya: safwat zayyat on AJA right now quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat:Zawiya is 40km west of Tripoli, FF are back to Zawiya and this is a very big victory strategy wise quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat: Freedom fighters in Nafousa might advance to Gharyan and Aziziya which is only 50km from Tripoli as well quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat: Freedom fighters are advancing on to Zliten as well and NATO are stepping up their strikes quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat: The noose on Gaddafi is tightening and Tripoli is slowly being surrounded from all sides quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat: Gaddafi forces attacked Misrata's port today.. they're trying to say that "we're still here" but it won't work quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat: They are trying to show that they can still attack Misrata to give them more power at negotiations with USA/EU quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat: Zawiya is exploding, so is Zliten and Nafousa.. we will see the battle getting closr to Tripoli over the next few days quote:@ChangeInLibya: Safwat Zayyat is a retired Egyptian military analyst. He had the rank of Brigadier General int he Egyptian army. I love the guy quote:@ChangeInLibya: Tripoli: Via FB: Some political prisoners have been freed and smuggled out of jail by FF quote:@libi4ever: Friend from #Zawia I see the NATO fighter-jet now in the sky,ff about 6 km from city centre Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 11, 2011
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Jun 11, 2011 19:21
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- Fragrag
- Aug 3, 2007
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The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.
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THE HORSES rear end posted:
That video is like a brutal deconstruction of Cloverfield. The monster is real and the carnage and suffering is genuine.
That body in the truck towards the end looked so horribly mangled. I couldn't even tell if that was a leg or arm that was dangling.
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Jun 11, 2011 19:45
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Christ, I thought it was rags or something, not someone's limbs. It looks like there's nothing but bone, blood and jeans holding his leg together.
quote:@ChangeInLibya: Benghazi: A mass grave dating back to 1997 hs been found in Zuwetina which is 120km south-west of Benghazi http://t.co/NxMQEMe
quote:@Libya_Alhura: Breaking: Further strikes by NATO on Tripoli at Swani area, southern airport area and also to the south of the capital at Alaziziyah area.
quote:@4adam: #Nafusa #FF now attacking Gaddafi's forces in Arryayna ( Town between #Zintan and #Yefren)
quote:@FromJoane: Zawiya since last hr @NATO planes destroyed a convoy of #Gaddafi tanks moving towar
quote:@ChangeInLibya: TRIPOLI: BREAKING: Clashes between FF & Gaddafi forces in different parts of Tripoli right now #
quote:@Qahtani: BREAKING:caller from Zawiah on Libya TV: all western Azawiah is under FF control! fights toward east where is the only hospital #Feb17
quote:@Qahtani: BREAKING:Zawiah: car was sit on fire in middle of martyr SQ, when G forces gather around, it was detonated many G killed and injured
quote:@Qahtani: Confirmed by Caller Zawia on Libya TV: @NATO heavy strikes on Brigade32 (many times) that destroyed the building completely
quote:@ChangeInLibya: BREAKING: SABHA: NTC PRESS RELEASE: "Breaking News: Sabha breaking free from Gaddafi grip"
quote:@ChangeInLibya: Misrata: 2 cars tried to sneak in close to port, they fired missiles in port direction but they fell in the sea. Port undamaged&open. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 11, 2011
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Jun 11, 2011 20:34
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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A student posted:
We're have the maps tracking the Libyan front-lines been coming from?
This map gives you an idea of where everything is taking place. The whole area is directly linked to Nafusa by two major roads coming in from the south:
http://twitpic.com/5a6usv/full
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Jun 11, 2011 20:42
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- neamp
- Jun 24, 2003
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No, Nalut is NTC controlled or at least free from Gaddafi control, not sure how much say the Benghazi based NTC really has in those western areas. The plains to its north however are controlled by Gaddafi forces and it's getting shelled from there daily, no direct attacks in a long time though, I think.
Yafran was freed recently, but still fighting in the area and Gaddafi troops are close.
Sirte is still firmly Gaddafi controlled or loyal.
Not heard of much happening in Al Khums yet, but fighting in Zliten apparently, yes, might be about to be put down with overwhelming force by troops massed in the area though.
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Jun 11, 2011 21:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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There's still fighting going on in Zawiya, with reports of more NATO strikes on massed Gaddafi troops, and the rebels taking control of more and more of the city. If the rebels can secure Zawiya then they'll be able to cut off everything west of the city from reinforcement and capture everything up to the Tunisian border.
At that points Gaddafi would be fighting on two fronts right next to Tripoli, and his troops outside of Tripoli would become increasingly isolated, especially with more reports of towns further south rebelling.
Whatever happens, the next few days are going to be very interesting, a huge amount could be changing very quickly, and hopefully NATO will provide support.
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Jun 11, 2011 23:56
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- neamp
- Jun 24, 2003
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If the rebels manage to gain a foothold in Sorman and Zawiya they will be very difficult to dislodge, provided NATO is on the ball disabling Gaddafi's heavier equipment.
Sabrata and Al Ajaylat would then be the next immediate targets, I think, as they are just a few kilometers away. All those cities are near/on the coast so they could be supplied by ship and wouldn't be entirely dependent on support from the mountains, provided they can push Gaddafi forces out of shelling range of the port.
Anyway, I hope this works out, if it does the end is truly in sight
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Jun 12, 2011 01:24
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- the floor is baklava
- May 4, 2003
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SHAME
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This is astonishing footage. You can see guys shooting at and perhaps trying to clear the building just a few yards away. You can hear the fear in the cameraman's voice, the sound of passing artillery rounds, and just shy of two minutes into the first part, a shell lands just feet away. This is easily the most intense, harrowing and clearly dangerous real life battle footage I've ever seen. Everyone should watch it, if they can take the gore—and be warned there's a good deal of that.
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Jun 12, 2011 02:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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June 12th Live Blogs
LibyaFeb17.com
Feb17.info
AJE Libya
quote:Tripoli Updates:
1- Morale is high in the city with news that Al Zawiyah is resisting.
2- Groups around Tripoli are continuing preparations for what appears to be the ever closer final phase – The Tripoli …Chapter.
3- Army officer, and member of FGM, has informed us of the bombing of mobile radar units in Metiga. A nearby tent was untouched and the ground beneath the radars were barely scarred. Such is the incredible accuracy of the munitions being used.
4- In response to Alzawiyah, heavy checkpoints have been placed on the west of the capital. The coastal road has been closed.
5- 2 doctors have been arrested in response to a member of staff passing a note to a journalist revealing the baby being paraded as a NATO victim was actually an RTA victim.
6- FGM members witnesses, first hand, an armed freedom fighter engaging Katiba forces in the AbuSita district. Katiba forces were slow and frantic in their response, demonstrating how ill prepared and how poorly trained they are. It is largely estimated in Tripoli that 60% of armed forces loyal to the illegitimate regime will disappear when freedom fighters definitively engage the capital in the final push to Bab Alazaziyah.
7- Regime men have been witnessed in Jamhuriya Street smashing windows of buildings adjacent to NATO bomb sites in an attempt to mimic collateral damage prior to the arrival of the media.
quote:Events of Friday, June lOth (= situation at June Ilth, 00:00 hr s)
• The clashes between local freedom fighters and regime troops in Zliten that had started on Thursday
afte moon were rep orted to be still ongoing on Friday morning Regime troops also apparently continued to
shell p arts of the city .
• On Thursday, it was also reported that the hospital in Zliten was surrounded by regime troops in order to
prevent access to wounded local freedom fighters 22 casualties (i.e death civilians and/or freedom
fighters) were re porte d from Zliten Thursday.
• Heavy shelling with 'Grad' multiple rocket launchers (including with cluster bomb ammunition) and other
heavy artillery on ad-Dafniya started at 4 AM local time and lasted all day (400 grads were counted) The
shelling was followed by an infantry attack on the western front sector which was supported by tanks and
armoured infantry vehicles The att acks were again re pelled and pushed bac k to the outskirts of Zliten
• Despite the counter-attack on Dafniya, during Friday, the National Liberation Army has advanced up to 'a
few kilometres' from Suq AI Thulatha on the eastern outskirts of Zliten In the late afternoon, it was also
reported that trenches were being dug 'next to Suq AI Thulatha' (i .e presumably in Naim ah) in order to
secure the advance past the 'red lines'
• According to some unconfirmed report from late evening, the National Liberation Army from Misrata had
actually ' jo ined up ' with freedom fighters from Zliten at Suq AI Thulatha
• In the late afternoon there were also reports of regime troop concentrations on the Des.er.t. .Ro.a.d..south of
Misrata These troops apparently tried to enter the city from the South but were also repelled In the late
evening, NATO strikes were re ported by witnesses to be happening near Abd AI Raouf. Given these two
bits of information, these regime forces were most probably operating from the Crossroads to Bani Walid
• Further NATO airstri kes were re porte d around Zliten According to its own report, NATO destroyed 1 tank,
1 multiple rocket-launcher, 2 armed vehicles and 1 technical vehicle ' around Misrata' on Friday
• At nightf all , it was rep orted that regime troo ps under the command of Major General Yousif AbuHajr had
surrounded Zliten, barring anybody from entering or leaving and threatening the populace with shelling
and rape by (sub-saharan) mercenaries if the freedom fighters inside the city should not surrender
• 32 persons (including at least 16 freedom fighters) were kille d and up to 144 persons (including at le ast 40
freedom fighters) were wounded in Misrata throughout Friday. The casualties suffered on Friday were the
'he aviest in the past month' according to a hospital source in Misrata The hospitals in Misrata were
reported to be overwhelmed by the influx of injured Among the day's deaths is @MisrataPatriots reporter
Mohamed Ali Ma'dani
• It was reported that over 50 regime soldiers were killed and that 2 tanks and several BMP armoured
personnel carriers were destroyed
• The Libyan State Television claimed that regime forces had shot down a NATO helicopter in the sea off
the c oast of Zlitan on Friday , a claim that was later refuted by NATO as 'spurious'
• NATO srces confirme d that apart from other , tr aditional intelligence gathering metho ds and s ources , the
organiz at-I on actually also monitors Twitter in order to be tipped off about reports on the regime forces'
movements
• A 15-page plan signed by Khamis Gaddafi on March 8th ordering the invasion of Misurata with 11'350
soldiers has been f ound among seize d documents http://t .co/8qFQZYR
• A video report from an Egyptian news organization documented the ongoing influx of freedom fighters,
arms and ammunition from Benghazi to Misrata in small fishing vessels The footage also showed an anti-
aircraft gun and medicine being transported
Comment:
The offense to Zliten seems finally to have begun This behind a background of offenses in many other parts
of western Libya (and beyond) that started on Thursday and Friday Gharyan, az-Zawija, Sorman, Sabratha,
Zuwara, Bani Walid , Sabah,
Should be another big day, it's unlikely that the rebels are going to stop fighting, so expect lots of news coming out the area west of Tripoli. Hopefully NATO are planning to help out to prevent reinforces of Gaddafi's troops.
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Jun 12, 2011 10:34
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- Ghetto Prince
- Sep 11, 2010
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got to be mellow, y'all
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Looks like its all starting to collapse for Gadaffi, mostly because his die hard supporters have all died hard.
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Jun 12, 2011 11:01
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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If they manage to capture and secure Zawiya and the cities west of it then it'll prove that the rebels can capture cities from Gaddafi, which will be a massive boost to the rebels.
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Jun 12, 2011 11:03
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Weird article from Saudi Arabia about Palestine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/palestinian-rights-wont-be-denied-by-the-united-states-and-israel/2011/06/07/AGmnK2OH_story.html posted:
President Obama gave a rousing call to action in his controversial speech last month, admonishing Arab governments to embrace democracy and provide freedom to their populations. We in Saudi Arabia, although not cited, took his call seriously. We noted, however, that he conspicuously failed to demand the same rights to self-determination for Palestinians — despite the occupation of their territory by the region’s strongest military power.
Soon after, Obama again called into question America’s claim to be a beacon of human rights by allowing Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to set the terms of the agenda on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. Even more depressing than the sight of Congress applauding the denial of basic human rights to the Palestinian people was America turning its back on its stated ideals.
Despite the consternation and criticism that greeted the president’s words about the 1967 borders, he offered no substantive change to U.S. policy. America’s bottom line is still that negotiations should take place with the aim of reaching a two-state solution, with the starting point for the division of Israeli and Palestinian territory at the borders in existence before the 1967 Six-Day War.
Obama is correct that the 1967 lines are the only realistic starting point for talks and, thus, for achieving peace. The notion that Palestinians would accept any other terms is simply unrealistic. Although Netanyahu rejected the suggestions, stating “We can’t go back to those indefensible lines, and we’re going to have a long-term military presence along the Jordan [River],” both sides have long accepted the 1967 lines as a starting point. In 2008, Ehud Olmert, then Israeli prime minister, told the Knesset: “We must give up Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem and return to the core of the territory that is the State of Israel prior to 1967, with minor corrections dictated by the reality created since then.” Last November, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Netanyahu declared in a joint statement that “the United States believes that through good-faith negotiations, the parties can mutually agree on an outcome which ends the conflict and reconciles the Palestinian goal of an independent and viable state, based on the 1967 lines, with agreed swaps, and the Israeli goal of a Jewish state with secure and recognized borders that reflect subsequent developments and meet Israeli security requirements.”
One conclusion can be drawn from recent events: that any peace plans co-authored by the United States and Israel would be untenable and that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will remain intractable as long as U.S. policy is unduly beholden to Israel. Despite his differences with Netanyahu, Obama is stymied in his efforts to play a constructive role. On the eve of an election year, his administration will no doubt bow to pressure from special interests and a Republican-dominated Congress, and back away from forcing Israel to accept concrete terms that would bring Palestinians to the negotiating table.
But U.S. domestic politics and Israeli intransigence cannot be allowed to stand in the way of Palestinians’ right to a future with a decent quality of life and opportunities similar to those living in unoccupied countries. Thus, in the absence of productive negotiations, the time has come for Palestinians to bypass the United States and Israel and to seek direct international endorsement of statehood at the United Nations. They will be fully supported in doing so by Saudi Arabia, other Arab nations and the vast majority of the international community — all those who favor a just outcome to this stalemate and a stable Middle East.
Obama has criticized this plan as Palestinian “efforts to delegitimize Israel” and suggested that these “symbolic actions to isolate” Israel would end in failure. But why should Palestinians not be granted the same rights the United Nations accorded to the state of Israel at its creation in 1947? The president must realize that the Arab world will no longer allow Palestinians to be delegitimized by Israeli actions to restrict their movements, choke off their economy and destroy their homes. Saudi Arabia will not stand by while Washington and Israel bicker endlessly about their intentions, fail to advance their plans and then seek to undermine a legitimate Palestinian presence on the international stage.
As the main political and financial supporter of the Palestinian quest for self-determination, Saudi Arabia holds an especially strong position. The kingdom’s wealth, steady growth and stability have made it the bulwark of the Middle East. As the cradle of Islam, it is able to symbolically unite most Muslims worldwide. In September, the kingdom will use its considerable diplomatic might to support the Palestinians in their quest for international recognition. American leaders have long called Israel an “indispensable” ally. They will soon learn that there are other players in the region — not least the Arab street — who are as, if not more, “indispensable.” The game of favoritism toward Israel has not proven wise for Washington, and soon it will be shown to be an even greater folly.
Commentators have long speculated about the demise of Saudi Arabia as a regional powerhouse. They have been sorely disappointed. Similarly, history will prove wrong those who imagine that the future of Palestine will be determined by the United States and Israel. There will be disastrous consequences for U.S.-Saudi relations if the United States vetoes U.N. recognition of a Palestinian state. It would mark a nadir in the decades-long relationship as well as irrevocably damage the Israeli-Palestinian peace process and America’s reputation among Arab nations. The ideological distance between the Muslim world and the West in general would widen — and opportunities for friendship and cooperation between the two could vanish.
We Arabs used to say no to peace, and we got our comeuppance in 1967. In 2002 King Abdullah offered what has become the Arab Peace Initiative. Based on U.N. Security Council Resolution 242, it calls for an end to the conflict based on land for peace. The Israelis withdraw from all occupied lands, including East Jerusalem, reach a mutually agreed solution to the Palestinian refugees and recognize the Palestinian state. In return, they will get full diplomatic recognition from the Arab world and all the Muslim states, an end to hostilities and normal relations with all these states.
Now, it is the Israelis who are saying no. I’d hate to be around when they face their comeuppance.
The writer is chairman of the King Faisal Center for Research & Islamic Studies in Riyadh. He was Saudi intelligence chief from 1977 to 2001 and ambassador to the United States from 2004 to 2006.
I'd say it's designed to counter the counter-revolution narrative, but it was published in the Washington Post, so it's clearly targeting American policymakers. Hard to imagine a real shift in Saudi policy on Palestine though. They obviously support the creation of a Palestine state, but even with the Arab Peace Initiative, they've never been very active in pushing for it.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:13
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Goods points on Egypt, especially the need for elections relatively soon before the military gets too comfortable.
http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/12/tense_times_in_egypt posted:
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After a week in Cairo talking to a wide range of activists, academics, political figures, Islamists, journalists, and many others -- while also taking part in this exceptional conference which I helped organize at the American University of Cairo (video here) -- I came away sharing many of the concerns I encountered in the vibrant political discussions I heard, but broadly optimistic about Egypt's prospects. It is impossible to not be impressed with the energy, enthusiasm, and talent of the diverse array of activists and social forces which came together to make Tahrir possible. While I found plenty of reasons for concern about the intentions of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, I found myself more impressed by their relative incompetence than by their malevolent genius. I found the Muslim Brotherhood confident but clearly grappling with a wide range of unfamiliar issues and challenges which have the Islamists on shaky ground. I also found deep, if unsurprising, skepticism that the U.S. could or would play a positive role in shaping a new Egypt, a public sentiment with which the U.S. appears to be doing too little to engage.
Cairo feels surprisingly normal these days, after this year’s whirlwind of revolutionary fervor. But the deep uncertainty shaping all of its political life seems to be taking a toll. Elections to Parliament are supposed by held in September, but there is still no electoral law. Recent violent clashes between salafi Islamists and Copts have set religious tensions on edge, feeding an intense and growing polarization between Islamists and secular trends. Parts of the revolutionary coalition seem determined to continue taking to the streets, as the only way to put any serious pressure on the SCAF or as a project of pushing for a deeper revolution, while others warn of the risk of alienating mainstream Egyptians who crave a return to normal life and of the urgency of turning now to the hard work of building political parties. Most everybody is unhappy with the Supreme Council for the Armed Forces.
The question currently consuming the protest movement is a demand to postpone elections in favor of first drafting a constitution. There is some logic to their demands, given the obvious problems with moving forward in the absence of clear rules governing political life. What is the sense of electing a Parliament before Egyptians know whether they will be operating within a presidential or parliamentary system?
At the same time, there is something off-putting about self-declared liberals and democrats arguing in favor of continued military rule and against elections. Egypt just held a referendum on precisely this question, in which 77% of voters in a high turnout voted in favor of constitutional amendments and moving to parliamentary and presidential elections before redrafting the constitution. The legal arguments offered by the coalition issuing the call for “Constitution First” are unpersuasive, given the outcome of the referendum. Those who voted "yes" on the referendum, including but not by any means limited to the Muslim Brotherhood, see this new call for "Constitution First" as a thinly veiled end-run around democracy.
The underlying argument, of course, is that early elections would unfairly privilege the Muslim Brotherhood. Because other trends have not had time to organize for elections, this would be an unfair advantage for the Islamists. This would be more compelling were there any sign that the grab-bag of other trends were doing much by way of organizing their own ranks. It is far too easy to imagine that waiting for the secularists to get their acts together and form parties able to compete with the Muslim Brotherhood would mean waiting many years. How cruel an irony would it be to abort the transition to democracy out of fear that the “liberals” would lose?
The Muslim Brotherhood itself has been careful to insist that it would neither field a candidate for president nor seek a parliamentary majority. The leaders I met with consistently pointed out that they were aiming for 30% of the seats in Parliament, and the MB leadership has been insisting over the last weeks that it would expel from its ranks any member which stood for president. Its leaders understand well the risks of over-reaching at this transitional stage, with several citing during our conversations the lessons of Algeria (where Islamist electoral success triggered military coup and a horrific civil war) and Gaza (where the victory by Hamas triggered international sanctions and a deep Palestinian political divide). But its leaders seem increasingly annoyed with their counterparts. Why should the MB be punished, they ask, for spending the last few months organizing for a political campaign while its rivals did little but talk? They are also furious over what they see as an unfair and distorting media campaign against them across much of the press and TV.
For all its overt confidence, the Muslim Brotherhood is not necessarily the behemoth which it is perceived to be. While it eagerly projects the image of power, it is struggling to navigate a confusing new environment after decades of repression. Its chief advantage is its ability to mobilize voters, but this may not matter as much if there is extremely high turnout in Egypt’s first free elections. The MB will no longer benefit from being the sole outlet for a protest vote against Mubarak. The rise of the salafi trend has frightened many Egyptians (and the West), who do not necessarily make the fine distinctions among competing Islamist trends which they themselves do. Much of the media has been mobilizing against the Brotherhood, pouncing upon inflammatory or misguided statements by various spokesmen and fanning the flames of anti-Islamist anger. Some of the most prominent of the Muslim Brotherhood youth who played a key role in Tahrir during the revolution have been publicly critical of their leadership. (I will have more on all of this in a later post.)
The role of the Muslim Brotherhood in the ranks of Tahrir points to one of the greatest and most sharply contested legacies of the revolution: Who can legitimately claim to speak for the revolution? The loose coalition of youth activists and liberal politicians warn loudly that the Islamists might “hijack” the revolution. But the Muslim Brotherhood youth were in Tahrir as well, fighting hard. So were a wide coalition of workers, ordinary people, and the "Ultras" which have been receiving a bit of attention of late. Indeed, that diversity is precisely what made Tahrir so amazing. But if the Brothers were a key part of the assembled forces on Tahrir, then why do they not have equal claim on its legacy? Why should prominent and media-savvy young activists have a greater claim than the labor union leaders and ordinary people whose participation in the uprising helped it succeed where a decade of internet-led activism had mostly failed?
I remain broadly optimistic about Egypt, and deeply impressed by the quality of its civil society and emergent political class. The new political environment is drawing new actors into the political realm, engaging mass publics in active debates about the basic principles of Egyptian political order, and changing long-existing political movements. It is fantastic to watch Egyptians in a cafe excitedly discussing Yosri Fouda's talk show in the same way I used to see them debate al-Jazeera talk shows about issues and ideas far from Cairo.
I was interviewed by the Egyptian daily al-Masry Al-Youm on the visit (in Arabic). What I told them was that I think that the most urgent strategic priority should be moving quickly towards elections and legitimate civilian rule. I see the arguments for "Constitution First" but don't find them as compelling. The SCAF should not be allowed to grow comfortable in power, or excuses made to repeatedly extend the date of elections. Waiting for the scales to tip against the Islamists is a political strategy, not a constitutional or legal one, and will likely mean perpetual delay and the squandering of an historically unique opportunity for a democratic Egypt.
The only way to get a transition to democracy is to hold elections and transition to democracy. Victory in those elections will not be conferred by loud claims of revolutionary legitimacy, but through effective organization and by speaking credibly to the identities and interests of likely voters. Rather than complaining about their organizational disadvantages, secularists and liberals and leftists and all other political trends should get on with the hard work of building parties and preparing for the elections. They could work to highlight economic and social issues with resonate with ordinary Egyptians -- schools, hospitals, jobs, labor conditions -- which are the traditional focus of the left. When liberals and activists find themselves advocating a course which would keep the Egyptian military in power indefinitely, it may be time to re-evaluate.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:31
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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I've got no reason to believe this is true, but interesting if it is.
http://feb17.info/news/gaddafi-hiding-in-labyrinth-of-600-feet-underground-tunnels-to-avoid-nato-airstrikes-2/ posted:
Tripoli, June 12 (ANI): Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is reportedly hiding in 13 feet wide desert water tunnels, some of which are 600 feet deep, in a desperate bid to avoid being attacked by NATO airstrikes over ground.
“Gaddafi has gone underground to save himself. It’s just like in the Blitz when people lived in the London Underground system. He doesn’t want to hang around on the surface where he can be targeted,” the Daily Star quoted a senior Libyan security source, as saying.
“The Paveways are being used to hit those hard-to-reach bunkers. He is relying on the earth insulating him from tracker devices. The tunnels are ideal and mean that he can stay close to Tripoli,” he added.
The tunnels are part of the 20 billion pounds ‘Great Man-Made River Project’ that Gaddafi had built in the 1980s.
The tunnels, which link the desert with Tripoli, Benghazi and Sirte, are reportedly big enough to take a double-decker bus and are made of 75-ton sections of reinforced concrete pipe.
Reports suggest that they were part of the largest and most expensive irrigation project in history, designed to extract water from 2,500 feet below the Sahara and transport it to towns and cities.
After engineers expressed suspicion that the huge pipes would be used to hold troop camps or storing military vehicles and supplies or even poison gas, the Royal Air Force (RAF) has reportedly sent in 2,000lb Paveway bombs to target Gaddafi.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:36
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- the floor is baklava
- May 4, 2003
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SHAME
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Paradox Personified posted:
A lot of talk is flying around now that Brega is under FF control. #Libya on twitter, as usual.
Word on Libya's blog is that there's fighting 13 km East of Brega, according to sources in Ajdabiya. Granted a lot can happen in the four hours since the latter report, but I'll believe Brega's liberated when I hear it from a reliable source. Here's hoping anyway.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:46
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Not that Jordanian parliamentary elections are particularly fair, but it's still a notable development.
AP posted:
AMMAN, Jordan — Bowing to popular demands for reform, Jordan’s king says future Cabinets will be formed according to an elected parliamentary majority.
Jordanians have been demanding that King Abdullah II loosen his absolute grip on power, which includes appointing prime ministers and Cabinets.
In a speech Sunday marking his 12th year as Jordan’s ruler, Abdullah also promised further constitutional changes, but did not elaborate.
In six months of pro-democracy protests, Jordanians have also demanded a new parliamentary election. They claim November’s election was marred by fraud.
Abdullah promised more reforms but warned that sudden change could lead to “chaos and unrest” like in other Arab countries.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:57
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- dj_clawson
- Jan 12, 2004
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We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.
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Xandu posted:
Weird article from Saudi Arabia about Palestine.
I'd say it's designed to counter the counter-revolution narrative, but it was published in the Washington Post, so it's clearly targeting American policymakers. Hard to imagine a real shift in Saudi policy on Palestine though. They obviously support the creation of a Palestine state, but even with the Arab Peace Initiative, they've never been very active in pushing for it.
For whatever reason, the Saudis have been pushing a reasonable plan for a while now. Sadly, few people on either side have expressed interest.
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Jun 12, 2011 19:16
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- Mad Doctor Cthulhu
- Mar 3, 2008
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Xandu posted:
I've got no reason to believe this is true, but interesting if it is.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Gaddafi! Dictators on the half shell!
Sorry, couldn't help it.
Xandu posted:
Not that Jordanian parliamentary elections are particularly fair, but it's still a notable development.
They're showing more smarts than most of their neighbors. "Revolution? gently caress that, we'll give you what you want now so we're not driven out on a rail."
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Jun 12, 2011 19:19
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Such a weird loving story.
http://electronicintifada.net/blog/ali-abunimah/new-evidence-about-amina-gay-girl-damascus-hoax
Too many pictures and too long to quote, but it provides interesting evidence that the people behind that Gay Girl in Damascus blog are a couple from America.
Xandu fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 12, 2011
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Jun 12, 2011 19:41
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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I can't figure out where this idea is coming from, but someone connected in Turkey is pushing it. Turkey hasn't received anywhere near hundreds of thousands of refugees, though. Less than 10k, I think.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/06/10/idINIndia-57626720110610 posted:
Turkey is considering creating a buffer zone on its border with Syria if hundreds of thousands flee the unrest there, a Turkish newspaper report on Friday.
Nearly 3,000 Syrians have fled into southern Turkey fearing a military assault and the Syrian army has begun a military operation near the border in the town of Jisr al-Shughour, Syrian television said on Friday.
"Foreign Ministry officials said that among scenarios that had been discussed was the creation of a buffer zone if hundreds of thousands want to seek refuge in Turkey," the Hurriyet daily reported.
However, this is not seen as a near-term prospect. Foreign Ministry officials were not immediately available to comment.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan reiterated on Thursday that Turkey would keep its gates open to people from Syria. But Damascus, he said, was taking the issue "very lightly" and Ankara could not defend Syria's "inhumane" response to the unrest.
The Syrian government has said armed gangs killed more than 120 security personnel in Jisr al-Shughour, a town of 50,000 near the Turkish border, earlier this week.
"We can't close our door to those people who run away for their lives, but how long is it going to be like this?" Erdogan told a Turkish television station in comments reported by state-run Anatolian news agency.
Anatolian said the number of Syrians seeking refuge had reached 2,792 people, with some crossing the border on Friday. Fifty-seven wounded people were receiving hospital treatment.
"We, as Turkey, cannot stand up for Syria in the face of all this. We still have relatives there," Erdogan said.
At the Yayladagi refugee camp, set in a picturesque valley just north of the Syrian border, children played football while families sat talking under trees. Police kept journalists away from the camp.
Turkey's Red Crescent set up the tent camp five weeks ago on the grounds of a disused tobacco factory and is now building a second camp as hundreds of refugees continue to arrive.
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Jun 12, 2011 20:18
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- Nuclear Spoon
- Aug 18, 2010
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I want to cry out
but I don’t scream and I don’t shout
And I feel so proud
to be alive
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It's actually a guy living in Istanbul it seems.
http://damascusgaygirl.blogspot.com/2011/06/apology-to-readers.html
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Jun 12, 2011 20:42
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- Homeroom Fingering
- Apr 25, 2009
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The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know
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Xandu posted:
Weird article from Saudi Arabia about Palestine.
I'd say it's designed to counter the counter-revolution narrative, but it was published in the Washington Post, so it's clearly targeting American policymakers. Hard to imagine a real shift in Saudi policy on Palestine though. They obviously support the creation of a Palestine state, but even with the Arab Peace Initiative, they've never been very active in pushing for it.
Nothing weird about that. When democracy and rights are brought up for their country, long rambling speeches about Palestine and Israel which has nothing to do with the topic at hand seems to be par for the course for Arab dictatorships. Wasn't that pretty much the first defense of the Syria government when their protests started?
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Jun 12, 2011 21:14
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- AstroWhale
- Mar 28, 2009
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Xandu posted:
I can't figure out where this idea is coming from, but someone connected in Turkey is pushing it. Turkey hasn't received anywhere near hundreds of thousands of refugees, though. Less than 10k, I think.
Let's wait how that turns out.
Erdogan just won the election with a comfortable majority. Will he now turn against Assad? What is going to happen with the refugees, if Assad stays in power? They certainly don't want to return... Is this going to be like the situation with the palastinian refugees?
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Jun 12, 2011 21:35
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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tetsul posted:
Nothing weird about that. When democracy and rights are brought up for their country, long rambling speeches about Palestine and Israel which has nothing to do with the topic at hand seems to be par for the course for Arab dictatorships. Wasn't that pretty much the first defense of the Syria government when their protests started?
Right, but they're not usually put in the Washington Post to target Americans. They're usually meant for local consumption.
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Jun 12, 2011 21:40
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- dj_clawson
- Jan 12, 2004
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We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.
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Xandu posted:
Right, but they're not usually put in the Washington Post to target Americans. They're usually meant for local consumption.
Another reason: Saudi Arabia has been suspiciously interested in pushing a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians (which would be very unpopular among their own populace) since Iran started its nuclear program. Israel and Saudi Arabia do silently agree on one thing, and that is curbing Iran's growth, for different reasons. Stabilizing the Holy Land with a peace process would give Israel more time to focus on Iran.
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Jun 13, 2011 00:38
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- Chortles
- Dec 29, 2008
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Ace Oliveira posted:
I love how he says that he was just trying to illuminate the experiences of people in the middle east, despite that he was just making poo poo up without regard for what actually happens in Syria. The guy was just making poo poo up, he wasn't doing anything good.
quote:While the narrative voıce may have been fictional, [/b]the facts on thıs blog are true and not mısleading as to the situation on the ground[/b].[quote]Me: "Prove it."[quote]I feel that I have created an important voice for issues that I feel strongly about. quote:I only hope that people pay as much attention to the people of the Middle East and their struggles in thıs year of revolutions. quote:The events there are beıng shaped by the people living them on a daily basis. I have only tried to illuminate them for a western audience. quote:This experience has sadly only confirmed my feelings regarding the often superficial coverage of the Middle East and the pervasiveness of new forms of liberal Orientalism.
Me: 
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Jun 13, 2011 03:31
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- Mozi
- Apr 4, 2004
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Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die
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Nap Ghost
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At least in many ways it's good that what we thought happened didn't actually happen. Still kind of a strange thing to do, though.
Although, terrible things happening to real people is still a reality.
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Jun 13, 2011 03:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Live Blogs June 13th
AJE Syria
AJE Libya
AJE Yemen
Feb17.info
LibyaFeb17.com
Guardian
I was busy yesterday, so I didn't have much chance to keep track of things. I'm going to try to figure out what actually is happening at the moment, as there's lots of information floating about.
Brega
Reuters posted the following this morning:
quote:Rebels fighting against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi say they were repulsed by his forces in a battle to retake the eastern oil town of Brega, suffering at least four dead.
In the west, rebels said they were fighting Gaddafi's forces for a second day in the town of Zawiyah on Sunday, bringing the revolt against his rule closer to the capital.
The rebels said they had lost at least four killed in fighting between Brega and Ajdabiyah. At least 65 fighters were wounded, doctors at the hospital in the rebel stronghold city of Benghazi said.
"We attacked them first but they attacked us back. We tried to get to Brega but that was difficult," Haithan Elgwei, a rebel fighter, said after returning from the front with the wounded.
"NATO (aircraft) were covering us from above but Gaddafi troops fired rockets and mortars outside Brega," Akram, 24, a wounded fighter, said.
"We will not retreat. We look forward to taking Tripoli," he added.
Zawiyah
Reuters posted the following about Zawiyah this morning:
quote:The fresh outbreak of fighting in Zawiyah, west of Tripoli and home to a big oil refinery, marks the closest the armed rebellion has come to Gaddafi's stronghold in the capital for months.
Reporters taken by the government to see Zawiyah, which saw intense fighting at the start of the anti-Gaddafi uprising in February and has changed hands several times, found it eerily quiet on Sunday, with almost no one in sight.
On Saturday, Libyan government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said there was "no serious fighting" there.
On Sunday, he told reporters that no more than 100 rebel fighters who had attacked to the west of the city were holed up after suffering losses and the government was trying to negotiate their surrender.
"They were defeated after a few hours of scattered skirmishes with the army," he added.
Not long after the reporters left Zawiyah, rebel spokesman M'hamed Ezzawi said by phone there was heavy fighting 400 m (yards) from the main square.
"The brigades are using heavy weapons. They are better equipped than the revolutionaries," he said. "We have no statistics so far as to the number of martyrs but there are at least seven wounded among the revolutionaries."
AJE posted this short piece this morning:
quote:Al Jazeera reports that there have been clashes between Libya’s rebels and pro-Gaddafi forces in Misurata and Az Zawiya. Meanwhile, Tripoli rejects any negotiation on the ouster of the Libyan leader.
Zliten/Misrata/Nafusa
There's various reports of fighting, around Zliten, but nothing detailing the progress of the rebels that isn't coming frmo very biased sources.
In Nafusa there's various reports of fighting in a number of small towns in the area as the rebels try to clean out the remaining Gaddafi troops, with various victories reported.
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jun 13, 2011
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Jun 13, 2011 08:39
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- Adbot
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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May 21, 2024 11:47
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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The Guardian Live blog has a morning round up, mainly focused on Syria:
quote:Heavy shelling and gunfire has rocked the north-western town of Jisr al-Shughour, two days into a military assault that has caused more than 5,000 refugees to flee into neighbouring Turkey.
According to the Turkish newspaper Hürriyet nearly 6,000 more Syrians are waiting to cross the border.
There is mounting concern about a humanitarian crisis in in the 12 mile (20km) stretch of hills and valleys leading to Jisr al-Shughour. Refugees who have made it to safety say thousands of people are sleeping rough, too afraid to move on as military helicopters circle.
Catherine Ashton, the EU's high representative for foreign affairs said:
The Syrian state news agency, Sana, said the army has restored "security and tranquility" to the town. But it reported that the army was still persuing some "armed groups" fleeing the town.
The continuing assault suggests there continuing resistance in the area. A businessman in Homs with trade partners in the town, said:
quote: Government forces are questioning orders to fire at unarmed civilians and defecting. That is why Jisr is posing such a problem to the regime and the operation is taking so long as the defected soldiers will fight back.
A Guardian editorial castigates the world's "limp" response to the crisis.
quote: Military action is not realistic, but the full range of diplomatic, financial and legal sanctions should come into play. Instead, there is nobody directly calling for Assad to go, and China and Russia disgracefully absent themselves from the security council in order to avoid even airing disquiet.
Has President Bashar al-Assad lost control to hardline elements? asks the Guardian's foreign affairs analyst Simon Tisdall.
quote: The facts – that Assad has not been seen in public for weeks, that his army commander brother, Maher, is leading the offensives in the north, and that Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, says the president is refusing to take his calls – suggest Assad may not only have lost the initiative but has also lost control of the reins of power.
Meanwhile, the blogger a Gay Girl in Damascus turns out to be a straight middle-aged American based in Edinburgh. Tom MacMaster revealed that he was the sole author of the hoax blog.
"The events [in the Middle East] are being shaped by the people living them on a daily basis. I have only tried to illuminate them for a western audience," he wrote.
Like many, the Guardian was taken in the hoax. The Guardian's reader's editor Chris Elliot said the episode has been a cautionary tale:
quote: When using social media – as we will continue to do as part of our journalism – the Guardian will have to redouble its efforts in establishing not just methods of verification, but of signalling to the reader the level of verification we think we can reasonably claim.
The hoax is a gift to the Syrian propaganda machine. The state news agency Sana has a rare "urgent" update. It says: "US citizen confesses participation in the misleading media campaign through creating personality of a virtual Blogger as a Syrian woman kidnapped by gunmen in Damascus." There is likely to be more later.
These are the other main developments in the region:
• Recep Tayyip Erdogan has become the most successful prime minister in the history of Turkey's multiparty system after a landslide victory at the country's general election. His centre-right Justice and Development party, in power since 2002, won 49.9% of all votes, giving it 325 seats in parliament. The result falls short of the two-thirds majority needed to rewrite Turkey's 1982 military constitution without having to consult parliament.
• Iranian security officials have used baton charges and tear gas to disperse hundreds of protesters at a silent rally in central Tehran marking the second anniversary of the country's disputed presidential election. Riot police and plainclothes basij militia were deployed in various locations in the capital, arresting at least tens of protesters.
• Muammar Gaddafi's increasingly stretched army is struggling to crush a surprise rebel offensive in Zawiya, a strategic town just 30 miles west of Tripoli, while fighting has also been reported in the largest town in the Libyan Sahara. At least 13 rebel fighters and civilians were killed in Zawiya on Saturday after the attack on government forces. Meanwhile, the BBC reports that Libyan rebels are smuggling weapons through Tunisia.
• A 20-year-old woman who recited poems critical of Bahrain's rulers and later claimed she was beaten in jail was sentenced to a year in prison, as part of the kingdom's crackdown on Shia protesters calling for greater rights. The ruling by a special security tribunal sent a strong message that the Sunni monarchy is not easing off on punishments linked to the unrest despite appeals for talks with Shia groups in the strategic Gulf island state, which is home to the US navy's 5th Fleet.
This Guardian article has a bit more information about the situation in different cities:
Zawiya
quote:Muammar Gaddafi's increasingly stretched army is struggling to crush a surprise rebel offensive in Zawiya, a strategic town just 30 miles west of Tripoli, while fighting has also been reported in the largest town in the Libyan Sahara.
At least 13 rebel fighters and civilians were killed in Zawiya on Saturday after the attack on government forces.
Guma el-Gamaty, a London-based opposition spokesman, said on Sunday several hundred rebels remained "well-protected and entrenched" in the western part of the town and also controlled a section of the coastal highway to Tunisia that serves as the main supply route for Tripoli. Loyalists forces were still in charge of the town centre and have large numbers of snipers there, he said by phone from London.
The government acknowledged that fighting had occurred in Zawiya, which has a major oil refinery, but said the clashes were minor and loyalist forces remained in complete control.
It was not possible to verify the conflicting information since foreign journalists in Tripoli are not permitted to leave the capital.
Tripoli
quote:A businessman in Tripoli, who requested anonymity for his own safety, said the strain on the regime appeared to be showing, with security tightening sharply in Tripoli in recent days. Vehicles entering suburbs known to be restive at night were being checked by up to six times at a single roadblock by police officers, the businessman said. Gaddafi remains in hiding in the city with his family, and appears not to be responding to international diplomatic efforts offering him a safe exit from power.
Sabha
quote:A businessman in Tripoli, who requested anonymity for his own safety, said the strain on the regime appeared to be showing, with security tightening sharply in Tripoli in recent days. Vehicles entering suburbs known to be restive at night were being checked by up to six times at a single roadblock by police officers, the businessman said. Gaddafi remains in hiding in the city with his family, and appears not to be responding to international diplomatic efforts offering him a safe exit from power.
Misrata/Zlitan
quote:Misrata's fighters are battle-hardened after defending their city for nearly four months, and commanders claim that increasingly numbers of government troops are deserting. But they are aware of the shortcomings of their all-infantry force against the heavy weapons of loyalist forces. In an artillery barrage on Friday, the rebels lost 31 men, and suffered 120 injuries. Rebels say the 32nd Brigade, an elite force reportedly controlled by Gaddafi's son, Khamis, is garrisoning Zlitan, the town blocking any advance from Misrata on Tripoli.
Nafusa
quote:Meanwhile, in the Nafusa mountain range to the south of Tripoli, government forces are continuing their attacks on the mainly Berber communities who have taken control of numerous small towns near the road that runs towards Tunisia. In the rebel-controlled town of Zintan, five people were killed during rocket attacks on Sunday, according to a rebel spokesman. More than 20 people were injured.
It's still unclear the size of the forces fighting each other in each area. If the rebels can sustain fighting in several fronts then the question becomes how long can Gaddafi support fighting across those fronts, especially if NATO is attacking supply lines, reinforcements, and ammo stores.
Hopefully NATO is going to stop bombing buildings in Tripoli and focus their efforts elsewhere.
Also, if the reports that only a 130 rebel soldiers attacked Brega it might indicate it was actually a probing attack to judge the strength of Gaddafi's forces, much like the Misrata rebels were doing before they attacked Zliten.
There's also reliable reports of 6 fighter bombers flying from Italy to Libya at the moment. I hope they aren't heading to Tripoli.
[edit] There's also reports of helicopters attacking Gaddafi forces to the southwest of Misrata.
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jun 13, 2011
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Jun 13, 2011 09:43
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Jun 11, 2011 18:16
SoroScrew 