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I think it's safe to assume that in almost any press contingent, there are those taking whatever they hear (or are told to report) with a grain of salt, and let that be reflected in their reporting. We've seen that in every conflict since the 70's. How many times have we seen in conflicts of the last 20 years reporters showing verified examples of NATO and/or US errors, either of execution or judgement? How many times have we seen the military embarrassed by news reports? They tried "embedding" reporters in Iraq but we still saw reports that damned (in some cases) allied actions. Some horrible truths still got exposed. To assert that the ENTIRE press contingent has suddenly overnight decided to tow the NATO line by "subscribing to a perpetuated cover-up" (so to speak) is frankly, loving ludicrous. The press loves exposing a cover-up because it gets them RATINGS. Fake edit: I use "NATO/US" in this example purely because the huge majority of WESTERN actions over the last few years have been NATO and/or US led. This is not a statement of politics, nor do I mean it to start a political derail. It's just a simple fact. We have to go back to the Falkland's before we get an action led by another western power, and in that arena, it was almost impossible to get a "free" (by that I mean free to go where they please) press purely because of the logistics involved.... hence it's moot. edit: gently caress I hate being the first post on a page
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Jun 28, 2011 11:08
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ChaosSamusX posted:We're saying that given the sheer flatness of CQ's propaganda campaign, it is fairly reasonable to assume that there has been almost no instance of collateral damage; otherwise it would be reported by Ghadaffi. Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Jun 28, 2011 |
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Jun 28, 2011 12:52
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Few more updates: Egypt quote:Debate in Egypt continues to rumble on over whether the election planned for September should be delayed until after a constitution has been drafted. Syria quote:Why did the government whip Brooks Newmark meet Syria's president Assad yesterday? The Foreign Office has stressed that Newmark's trip does not have government backing. quote:Yesterday's meeting of independent opponents of the Syrian regime was suspect and irrelevant, argues a Syrian dissident on Comment is Free. quote:Brooks Newmark is not available for comment about his trip to Syria, a spokeswoman for the government whip said. Few bits from journalists of Twitter. quote:Dennis Kucinich presser in hotel just now. Asked him if visit is giving legitimacy to the regime. Said he met w/opposition also. Differences of opinion like "I don't want to get shot/I want to shoot you". Libya quote:China has refused to endorse the international arrest warrants issued against the Gaddafi regime. quote:Germany has offered to send missile parts to help the Nato mission in Libya despite its opposition to the campaign, officials confirmed today, writes Helen Pidd in Berlin. The big Libya rumour on Twitter at the moment is the Nafusa rebels have managed to capture Al Qaa military depot, about 25km South of Zintan, which apparently is very large, and about 50% destroyed by NATO bombing. It was apparently still being used by Gaddafi troops in the area to resupply, so if this is true they've captured a good source of equipment, and denied it to Gaddafi's troops in the area. I've got a Twitter account that only follows accounts that are relevant to the Arab Spring, so if you want to see what I'm looking at you can visit my account here. Some people I follow are more reliable than others, so don't take everything as gospel truth.
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Jun 28, 2011 13:18
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@UKMilOps just Tweeted some information about yesterdays attacks, which I believe relates to the following from the NATO report:quote:In the vicinity of Zintan: 6 Armoured Personnel Carriers , 3 Tanks.
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Jun 28, 2011 14:28
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Jonah Hull of AJE has confirmed the Nafusa rebels have captured the Al Qaa supply depot. He's tweeting some information about what he's seen. quote:Tons of heavy weapons and muntions carried by hundreds of cars and trucks back to mountain towns, including two Russian T-55 tanks. Seems every man with wheels took part in the haul. Will swell morale in the moutains, and perhaps add to momentum and advance. The fact that Gaddafi's forces have been unable to defend it, or stop it being looted after it was captured, really shows how weak they are in that area. Even if they had abandoned it they surely would have destroyed everything inside, it just seems like the Gaddafi's forces were totally unable to defend a key weapons depot, which suggest they are having some serious problems. It's also interesting how Nafusa was the forgotten front for so long during the conflict, and over the last month has turned into the most active front, with the most progress being made. [edit]There's now reports from Twitter via the same source as the Al Qaa rumours that NATO is hitting targets in and around Gheyran in the east of the Nafusa region. [edit2]Here's a more detailed report: quote:Libyan rebels seize massive weapons depot Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 28, 2011 |
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Jun 28, 2011 15:49
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Does anyone have any idea why the Syrians haven't been able to begin an insurgency in the same way the Libyans were able to? I recognize that very few people are willing to be suicide bombers to allow access to an army base, but there are the same reports of soldiers defecting and refusing to carry out massacres, but the populace hasn't been able to establish a safe zone like Benghazi. Anything outside powers like Turkey could do to help kickstart something like that? Not that I'm in favor of a civil war, but it's bettter than indiscriminate killing country-wide.
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Jun 28, 2011 16:40
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You just asked how outside forces can kick up a civil war in a sovereign nation. You should think on that.
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Jun 28, 2011 16:54
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AJE just posted a report by Jonah Hull from the captured ammo depot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDfpNbazfvs Can anyone identify the various shoulder rocket launchers they are carrying about? And was that a Shilka driving about with the tanks?
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Jun 28, 2011 19:25
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el samayo grande posted:Does anyone have any idea why the Syrians haven't been able to begin an insurgency in the same way the Libyans were able to? I recognize that very few people are willing to be suicide bombers to allow access to an army base, but there are the same reports of soldiers defecting and refusing to carry out massacres, but the populace hasn't been able to establish a safe zone like Benghazi. The Syrian Army is gigantic compared to Libya's with something like five or six times the number of active personnel, 10x the armor, and a sizable reserve. The last time a city tried to garrison itself it was simply flattened.
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Jun 28, 2011 20:08
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The rebels have begun communicating directly with NATO pilots! 
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Jun 28, 2011 21:33
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Brown Moses posted:AJE just posted a report by Jonah Hull from the captured ammo depot: Those guys at 1:57 have two Strela anti aircraft missiles and that was indeed a Shilka between those two T-55's. It also is interesting all those ammo crates have English text on them but it's probably a universal standard even for suppliers like Russia or China to label stuff they export in English.
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Jun 28, 2011 21:46
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CeeJee posted:It also is interesting all those ammo crates have English text on them but it's probably a universal standard even for suppliers like Russia or China to label stuff they export in English. When the rebels took the depot at Misrata airport, a lot of the Chinese-made rockets had manifests written in English, so there's some truth to this.
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Jun 29, 2011 00:28
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Another article about the capture of the ammo dump:quote:Libyan Base Falls to a Rebel Ambush in the West
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Jun 29, 2011 08:48
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Hey, downtown Cairo goon here checking in: As of last night and this morning, Tahrir is shut the hell down again with a pretty sizable protest group that's getting somewhat violent with Central Security, for which reason I got tear-gassed the poo poo out of a couple hours ago. There's been a perennial protest culture here in the months since Mubarak's ouster, although there's no one goal uniting it, rather a melange of interests and demands that manifest in demonstrations in Tahrir itself (large groups every Friday, to the extent that it's become kind of a social thing for young people) and in front of various ministries and government buildings. This latest wave was touched off by the arrest of various protesting family members of those killed in the earlier demonstrations (that is, the Shohadaa, or Martyrs, a word that's been painted over pretty much every place Mubarak's name was written in all of Egypt) and has taken on the character of a call for the end of the Supreme Council of Armed Forces government that's currently running poo poo. I'd be surprised if it snowballs too far (unless the police does something desperately loving stupid again, in which case it's anyone's game), but it's about the nastiest I've seen it since February. Gonna be an interesting fall. Al Masry Al Youm (A liberal independent Egyptian daily) article here: http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/472561 Al Masry Al Youm posted:Fifteen people were arrested as the relatives protested at the Balloon Theater in the Agouza district, after which the group decided to march on the Interior Ministry, close to Tahrir Square, where a further 20 were arrested.
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Jun 29, 2011 09:35
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I was reading about that on Twitter last night, does it seem likely that it's a one off, or something that'll happen on a regular basis?
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Jun 29, 2011 09:37
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It's hard to say--I'd be inclined to think that it won't directly spawn any further protests, but it's notable in that it's still going on, something like eight or nine hours in and over the course of an entire night. I'm on a bus to New Cairo (middle of the drat desert) right now, but I'll go take a look when I get back this afternoon and see what's up. As of this morning, it's kind of the same kind of dynamic from the Jan-Feb protests, where people keep rushing police lines, getting tear gassed, then a thousands-strong group of people starts running away, then eventually they turn around and rush police lines again. I admit I didn't get too far into the mass of people this morning. Police got close enough to killing me last time, I'm not real eager to give anyone another bite at that particular apple.
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Jun 29, 2011 09:51
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Do you think this will make the military council reconsider their position, or just making them more hardline?
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Jun 29, 2011 10:03
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I was near the Balloon theatre in Giza when it all started last night, and it wasn't really clear who was doing what. What I saw was tens of people rocking the gates to the theater and trying to break in, while the police tried to arresta few. Wasn't really sure what was going on but from later reading, apparently several of the revolution martyr's families were either denied entry to the theatre during a ceremonial event dedicated to the martyrs of the revolution, because they didn't have tickets, or a couple of college girls aggravated them by saying something about Mubarak being innocent. In anycase, breaking into theatres or acting as if in a riot isn't a very good way to pay respect to the martyr's memories, but I don't have the full story. Video of martyr families: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8o6eJGGG1E In anycase, after police clashes by the theatre, apparently they escpaed/moved towards Tahrir square on the other side of the Nile where they went to protest while faced by scores of CSF security. Video of clashes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDafD1hI2X0 Not really sure how to feel about it. I agree that SCAF is kinda bumbling about, it began with the committee they appointed to set-up the framework of a new constituion, which turned out to be a very badly worded one and then with Mubarak still being held in a hospital in Sharm El Sheikh, trials getting constantly delayed and the like, but in all it seems like the people who initiated the riot at the theatre are the ones to blame. quote:Do you think this will make the military council reconsider their position, or just making them more hardline? Which position? Mubarak's trial? Delaying elections? Constitution first?
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Jun 29, 2011 10:04
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Brown Moses posted:Another article about the capture of the ammo dump: Surface to air usually explode as close to the target as they can, obviously it depends on the actual missile. Probably good at killing a group of people. I am no expert though, best wait for a proper answer.
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Jun 29, 2011 10:17
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Ham posted:Which position? Mubarak's trial? Delaying elections? Constitution first? Mainly the elections and consitution elements.
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Jun 29, 2011 10:39
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I just wrote this massive post for D&D, so I might as well post it here, feel free to correct me: Getting a clear picture of what's happening on the ground is difficult for a number of reasons. First of all it's very difficult to get an accurate picture of the strength of Gaddafi's forces in different areas, how well supplied they are, and their morale. The same thing goes for the rebels, although as there's better access by journalists to rebel controlled areas it's slightly easier to assess. Then you have to look at the various sources of information about Gaddafi and rebel movements. There's plenty of pro-rebel Twitter accounts tweeting various information that varies from accurate to wild speculation presented as fact. As there's pratically no journalists outside rebel controlled areas or areas they are allowed to visit by Gaddafi's regime it's difficult to really know what's going on in some areas. As you might have noticed I've been posting regular updates from various sources in this thread, so hopefully I can provide you with some answers. First of all you need to think of the conflict as three seperate zones, this map will help you locate various towns: The East This includes pretty much everything east of Brega, including Ajdabiya, Benghazi, Bayda, Tobruk, and small oasis towns in the southeast of Libya, although there's very little information coming out of those oasis towns so it's really difficult to know the current situation. Misrata This Map shows you the area of Misrata under control of the rebels, and where most the fighting is occuring. Nafusa Mountain This map shows the situation in the Nafusa Mountains, home to Libya's ethnic Berber population. There's also been unconfirmed reports of fighting in other isolated areas across the country, with various claims about who controls what, but with both sides making grand claims about who has done what it's really impossible to know who controls those areas. So let's look at the current situation in each area: The East Currently everything is focused around Brega, where Gaddafi forces have anything between 1000-3000 troops, who have spent the past couple of months digging in and fortifying their positions while the rebels have established their owns positions on the road between Ajdabiya and Brega. The rebels in that area are in direct contact with NATO, and claims they've been told to hold their positions by NATO, but in the last week or so it seems like they are now making their move on Brega. The rebels in that area are probably the best trained and equipped, having received various non-lethal supplies from NATO countries, including body armour, night vision equipment, and MRE's, and MILAN AT missiles from Qatar. They've also been trained by various NATO "advisors", and have very strong communication lines with NATO and the NTC. However, they lack actual fighting experience. NATO puts out daily reports of activity in Libya, listing significant strikes in different areas. Looking back over the past couple of weeks it was very quiet apart from 7 Truck-Mounted Guns, 3 Tanks destroyed on June 16th. During this time it was said that NATO was dropping leaflets on Brega warning the troops stationed their that they would be attacked if they didn't retreat or surrender. Then on June 24th their was a sudden increase in the amount of attacks by NATO: quote:24 JUNE: In the vicinity of Brega: 7 Command & Control Nodes, 1 Military Storage Facility, 14 Truck-Mounted Guns, 1 Tank, 2 Armoured Personnel Carriers, 3 Logistic Trucks, 7 Military Shelters. In the last two days it's been claimed that the rebels have captured the town of Marada, on the main road south of Brega, but this is unverified by anyone outside of the rebels. This would be important as it cuts off one of the main routes that was being used to supply Brega. Apart from that there's very little information coming from that area outside of NATO reports and various unverifiable rebel sources, so it's hard to know exactly what's going on. This Wikipedia article has a decent timeline of events. Misrata The Misrata rebels fought a long drawn out battle to secure their city from Gaddafi forces, many of which are believed to have belonged to Gaddafi's elite Khamis Brigade. They used their knowledge of the city to surround groups of Gaddafi troops, cutting them off from supplies, and by blocking roads with trucks full of sand creating obstacles for any Gaddafi vehicles which tried to advance into the city. They now control the city and it's suburbs, and are focused on capturing Zliten in the west. This map shows where most the fighting is taking place, and what is controlled by the rebels. Importantly the rebels now controlled the docks, which allows them to bring in trained troops, supplies and military equipment from Benghazi, as well as humanitarian supplies. The Misrata rebels current focus is capturing Zliten, but several factors complicate this. First of all as Zliten is considered to be a key city in the defense of Tripoli it's currently filled to the brim with Gaddafi's best troops. It also seems that the people of Zliten don't want Misrata to liberate them, rather they want to be able to liberate Zilten themselves with support from Misrata, and the Misrata rebels claim they are training and equipping rebels who have escaped from Zliten and including them in various Misrata rebel units to provide some local knowledge. Then there's been a lot of complaints from the Misrata rebels that NATO forces haven't provided them with the air support they'd like to make significant progress. These are the NATO strikes reported since June 16th: quote:June 21st Again, over the last couple of days there's really not been much information coming from Misrata, and the rebels don't seem keen on having journalists near the frontlines, so measuring progress is difficult. There's various claims coming from Twitter this morning about "15 explosions over last half hour from #NATO strikes." and "FF(Tue morning)surrounded Ramadan Bsheer farm S of SuqAlThulatha.Captured many GFs,50sniper rifles&3Toyotas.FF unharmed" but none of this can be verified, and it's difficult to know how significant it is even if true. Nafusa Mountains Pretty much the wild card in the whole conflict. For months Nafusa was pretty much forgotten about, it was remote, and the only way to reach it was through Gaddafi controlled areas which international journalists couldn't hope to reach. Reports that came out of Nafusa described the usual Gaddafi formula of towns being surrounded, shelled, then occupied, but at a much slower rate than other areas due to the terrain and local cave systems civilians and rebels were using as bunkers to protect themselves from Gaddafi shelling. The local population were mainly ethnic Berbers, who had rebelled against Gaddafi early on. Then the rebels in the area started to capture key locations, including the key Wazin border crossing with Tunisia, which allowed civilians to flee, and supplies to arrive to support the rebels. Some of these supplies included night vision equipment, satphones, and other expensive items supplied by foreign doners. Local knowledge of the Nafusa terrain and supplies smuggled using old smuggling routes helped the rebels greatly against Gaddafi forces, and one by one they secured the towns and cities in the Nafusa region, up until they had secured most of the mountain platau, as can be seen in this map.. One thing to understand about Nafusa is it creates kind of a natural fortress, so once the high ground is secured the only way up is through mountain roads that can be easily watched and defended. It would have been reasonable to expect that once having captured the majority of the towns and cities the rebels in the area would struggle to make any more advances outside of familiar terrain, but three events suggest they have greater ambitions. First of all, there was an aborted attack on Zawiya, on the coast to the north. Even though it failed it still demonstrated that they were able to cause problems for Gaddafi far outside of the Nafusa region. Then over the past few days there's been reports of fighting near Bir al Ghanam, northeast of the mountains, and another front for Gaddafi to send his troops too. How this will turn out is difficult to say, but it's on a fairly important route, and would give them a base of operations closer to Zawiya and Azizyah. Most significantly is their capture of the Al-Qaaa weapon depot yesterday. It's the largest weapon depot in the region, containing a vast amount of ammo and weapons, of various age and quality, but yesterday the Nafusa rebels managed to capture it, and immediately started emptying everything they could and sending it into the mountains. From footage I've seen they've definitly captured at least 2 T 55 tanks, one Shilka, a huge amount of surface to air shoulder missile launches (although who knows if they are effective against ground targets[/url], plus boxes and boxes of all sorts of ammo. This video report gives you an idea of the scale of looting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDfpNbazfvs Other reports say they captured a large number of unspecifed "military vehicles", and I've seen shots of various AA guns being driven off into the mountains. This seems to suggest Gaddafi's forces in the area are fairly poor, with his best troops being used to defend Tripoli, as many people have said, and the rebels aren't complete idiots. What difference this will make to the rebels in Nafusa is hard to gauge, but they are certaintly going to be better equipped. One other key event in Nafusa is the cutting off of the main oil pipelines to Zawiya refinery, which is currently believed to be a major source of petrol for the Gaddafi regime. It's the only oil pipeline supply oil in the Gaddafi controlled west of the country, and with ports in Libya being blockaded by NATO the only source of petrol is tankers smuggling fuel in from different countries, which is no where near enough to supply the army with fuel. Even now there's days long queues for civilian vehicles at petrol stations, so once any reserves run out Gaddafi's going to find himself with lots of vehicles that can't go anywhere. With the Nafusa rebels attacking various locations it he might find it difficult to fight battles on so many different fronts. Probably the most important location to capture next is Garyan, on the eastern end of the Nafusa mountains. It's currently heavily occupied by Gaddafi forces, and seems to be the focus of NATO aircraft, with various reports of bombings. Capturing it would be significant as one of the major roads to Tripoli would be cut off, and with Misrata under rebel control it would mean only one major road through Bani Walid would be control by Gaddafi's forces. If the Nafusa rebels then tried to capture the towns west of Tripoli along the coast any Gaddafi reinforcements would either have to come directly from Tripoli, or have a very long journey from anywhere else, which might be difficult if their fuel supply is limited.
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Jun 29, 2011 10:40
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Ham posted:
Agreed. The SCAF is getting pulled in a bunch of different directions at once and have definitely had a mixed record during the transitional period. The Egyptian military's such a weird animal that it's hard to say for sure what they even want to happen with all this. I doubt any real policy shifts are likely to follow from this: the constitutional vote's a done deal; I get the impression they're moving the trials as fast as they can--by all accounts, Mubarak is in extremely poor health at the moment--and offhand I can't think of anything else they could do to placate this particular vein of anger. Also of interest: apparently the SCAF is basically telling the IMF to gently caress off, which is one of the first indicators of what kind of macroeconomic policy slate they've got in mind. E: @Ham, how'd you happen to be in that particular part of Giza last night?
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Jun 29, 2011 10:48
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Libya Blogs June 29th AJE Libya AJE Yemen AJE Syria LibyaFeb17 Feb17.info Gaza quote:The Gaza flotilla aid flotilla was due to sail this week but it is expected to delayed until next week after bureaucratic hold ups and allegations of Israeli sabotage. quote:Sheikh Raed Salah, a leading Palestinian activist, has been detained in London amid reports that he is banned from the UK, PA reports. Syria quote:Syria's ambassador to Britain has been called into the Foreign Office and warned about allegations that a diplomat at the embassy has been intimidating Syrians living in the UK. "Any such activity would amount to a clear breach of acceptable behaviour," Christian Turner, the Foreign Office's Middle East director told the envoy. "If such claims were substantiated, the Foreign Office would respond swiftly and appropriately." Egypt quote:Our Egypt correspondent Jack Shenker was on the spot to witness police showering the square with tear gas canisters and fire bullets into the air. quote:The Egyptian daily Al-Masry Al-Youm has this footage of clashes in Tahrir Square. quote:Egyptian activist Gigi Ibrahim claims she filmed this footage of police appearing to use Taser-type guns against protesters during the clashes in Cairo last night quote:Gigi Ibrahim who witnessed and filmed the clashes in Cairo last night said Egyptians are angry at the lack of reform since the revolution. quote:Our picture desk has put together a gallery of some dramatic images from the latest violence in Cairo. Libya quote:The LA Times reports how Libyan rebels seized one of Gaddafi's arms depots near Zintan. quote:Britain is calling for a "politically inclusive settlement" in post-Gaddafi Libya that will take heed of the mistakes made in Iraq, writes Ian Black. A detailed "stabilisation document", overseen by the Department for International Development, has been submitted to the Benghazi-based Libyan opposition and sets out priorities after a ceasefire between the regime and rebels. quote:A U.S. Senate panel on Tuesday approved a resolution formally authorizing continued U.S. participation in the NATO-led military intervention in Libya but banning the introduction of U.S. troops on the ground there. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee voted 14-5 to approve the measure offered by Senator John Kerry, a Democrat, and John McCain, a Republican, sending it to the full Senate, where it faces an uncertain future. quote:The ICC prosecutor said on Tuesday that Gaddafi could fall within 2-3 months. “It is a matter of time … Gaddafi will face charges,” Moreno-Ocampo told reporters in The Hague, where the warrants were approved for Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam and Libyan intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi. The NTC has rejected both direct and indirect talks with Gaddafi. “I don’t think there is any place for direct or indirect contact with Gaddafi,” Mahmoud Shammam, a spokesman for the NTC said after meetings with French President Nicolas Sarkozy. quote:Bulgaria and Croatia have become the 19th and 20th sovereign nations to have recognized formally the Libyan rebels’ National Transitional Council in Benghazi as the legitimate representative of the Libyan nation in international affairs. quote:France has begun parachuting arms shipments to Berber rebels fighting Libyan leader Gaddafi's forces in the highlands south of Tripoli, the French daily Le Figaro reported on Wednesday.
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Jun 29, 2011 11:06
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Bit more from the Guardian on Egypt:quote:The Egypts military government, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, has issued a sinister looking decree on Facebook claiming last night's violence was organised to incite sedition. quote:Following last night's violence in Tahrir Square and the ongoing street clashes this morning, the Egyptian Football Association (EFA) has announced it is 'indefinitely postponing' tonight's crunch match between Cairo footballing giants Ahly and Zamalek, writes Jack Shenker.
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Jun 29, 2011 11:15
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Oh man, I was in Zamalek during an Ahly-Zamalek game and the atmosphere is pretty nuts. Not that people getting excited about football related matters is unheard of in Zamalek, as the poor Algerian embassy well knows.
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Jun 29, 2011 11:18
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I honestly don't understand the recent protests in Egypt. Post revolution we have seen the referendum take place, dates set for elections, and former regime members in court. I get the impression that the people kicking up a fuss are pissed that setting up a new country takes time. :squote:Oh man, I was in Zamalek during an Ahly-Zamalek game and the atmosphere is pretty nuts. Not that people getting excited about football related matters is unheard of in Zamalek, as the poor Algerian embassy well knows.
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Jun 29, 2011 11:31
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Libya The BBC has a picture gallery of the worlds most dangerous museum and street art in Misrata. quote:France airdrops arms to Libya rebels: Report Today's bit Twitter rumour is rebels have captured the town of Sheghuda, Fighting is still reported to be on going ni Bir al Ghanam, and it wouldn't be suprising if the rebels have just bypassed it to capture Sheghuda. By the looks of it it's a small town surrounded by what looks like farms, and there's lots of roads in the area so I don't think it would be effective at blocking any Gaddafi advances. Actually it's Al-Shegiga which is 25km north northwest of Mizdah, according to people in Twitter, I can't find it on a map. Fighting is still reported in Bir al Ghanam, maybe they are trying to cut of the routes to the north and south of Gheyran? [edit]If the rebels have reached Al-Shegiga maybe they are heading to Mizdah and the nearby army base/depot that's been bombed by NATO several times? It'll be interesting to see what forces are defending Mizdah, especially if Gaddafi expected the rebels to capture Gheyran first. Bahrain quote:A military court in Bahrain has delayed the appeal of 21 activist given long sentences last week, as readers have noted below the line. Egypt quote:There's a tense stand off between thousands of protesters and the central security forces on a street leading off Cairo's Tahrir Square, Jack Shenker reports from the scene. quote:Egyptian presidential candidate Mohamed ElBaradei has weighed-in on Twitter to claim that "sluggishness, opaqueness and confusion" have eroded the government's credibility. quote:The Egyptian health ministry said that up to 600 people have been injured in the ongoing clashes between protesters and police in central Cairo, and that nine have been arrested, Jack Shenker reports. quote:The Cairo derby between Ahly and Zamalek is back on, after the Ministry of Interior appeared to over rule the Egyptian Football Association. Saudi Arabia quote:At least five Saudi women have been arrested after defying the kingdom's ban on women drivers, an activist told AP. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jun 29, 2011 |
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Jun 29, 2011 13:37
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Good god I wish people would stop paying attention to Gigi Ibrahim. Homegirl is seriously dumb as a rock and--I poo poo ye not--only got excited about revolutionary politics because she was taking a class on revolutionary politics. Although it is a testament to the disingenuousness of the American press's (It's a purely ideological struggle by brave secularist liberals who want democracy! It had nothing at all to do with economic concerns re: skyrocketing food prices and not having any drat jobs) frame of the Egyptian uprising that they made a frontwoman out of an AUC aristocrat whose family is insanely rich because of the Mubarak kleptocracy. By all accounts people are still filtering into Tahrir and something like 700 people have been injured, but miraculously there's no reported fatalities as of yet. Headed back to the area in a bit, I'll keep y'all posted as I'm able. If I get back and my apartment's on fire I swear I am going to flip a poo poo. 
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Jun 29, 2011 14:21
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Lets not rule out this female driver ban completely as a bad thing.
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Jun 29, 2011 14:41
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I've actually managed to locate the place it's claimed the Nafusa rebels have captured, Al-Shaqiqa. I wonder if they've got control of Warmis to the west. It's in an interesting postions, it looks like the terrain to the east and southeast would make it difficult to attack from anywhere but the road leading eastwards to the road to Mizdah. Assuming everything that's claimed is true then the Nasfusa front is getting wider and wider, probably stretching Gaddafi's forces in the area even further.
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Jun 29, 2011 14:46
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Brown Moses posted:Mainly the elections and consitution elements. I doubt it'll change their position on anything, but you have to remember that these struggles are actually for another struggle: islamists vs. secularists/liberals/socialists/capitalists. Most of the people who attack elections before constitution are the non-islamists, whatever their political orientation. They feel like the government is handing power to the islamists on a platter. Chief among these groups are the April 6 Youth, who helped organize the revolt in Mahalla Al-Kubra several years ago, and the revolution this year. This also harkens back to the "2nd Friday of Rage" some weeks ago, when secular political factions protested in Tahrir about the "apparent" agreement between SCAF and the Muslim Brotherhood. In fact it got so heated the MB called all of the protestors traitors who didn't deserve to be Egyptian. This, what's going on right now, is a mixture of 2 viewpoints: Those who feel that SCAF is being too lenient on former regime personell, and those who feel SCAF is handing Egypt to islamists on a platter. But there's a significant problem here, for most Egyptians it's economy before democracy, and Islam before equality. This means that the more groups like April 6 call for protests, the more they're ostracized out of a mainstream that increasingly sees them as the main blocking force to economic prosperity, or the pereceived prosperity they saw with Mubarak compared to post-revolution with the economy going down for Jan-May. Islamists profit in several ways here. As they're seen not to participate in these protests, but even criticize them, most of the already Islamic-leaning population will sympathize with them and with their stated cause for not participating: "restoring security and economic prosperity". El Anansi posted:E: @Ham, how'd you happen to be in that particular part of Giza last night? I live in Mohandessin, was coming back from ASU in Abbasia and took the 15th May bridge. El Anansi posted:Good god I wish people would stop paying attention to Gigi Ibrahim. Homegirl is seriously dumb as a rock and--I poo poo ye not--only got excited about revolutionary politics because she was taking a class on revolutionary politics. Although it is a testament to the disingenuousness of the American press's (It's a purely ideological struggle by brave secularist liberals who want democracy! It had nothing at all to do with economic concerns re: skyrocketing food prices and not having any drat jobs) frame of the Egyptian uprising that they made a frontwoman out of an AUC aristocrat whose family is insanely rich because of the Mubarak kleptocracy. Gigi is kind of a dolt: "Some thugs wet and threw rocks at cops, so the cops chased them and then we joined the thugs in throwing rocks at the pigs in Tahrir!!" Other than that, you have to realize that it's not just the western media that puts that face on the revolution. The Egyptian media has been doing it since Feb. 11, where they labelled it primarily as a middle class revolution for freedom, democracy and social equity. In fact, almost all the "martyr montages" people see are of middle class dudes/girls who died in the revolution. It's just a nicer face, for both the Egyptian middle class and up and the western media than basically saying: "Some poor people in Egypt protested for economy and food." One final point about this, the revolution was about many things. Some will tell you it's just about economy and food for the majority of poor people, but that's wrong. Most of Egypt's middle and upper-middle class participated, and when I was with friends it was because of police brutality, civil rights and economic reform aimed at the poor. It wasn't about our own economical gain.
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Jun 29, 2011 14:47
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Ham posted:One final point about this, the revolution was about many things. Some will tell you it's just about economy and food for the majority of poor people, but that's wrong. Most of Egypt's middle and upper-middle class participated, and when I was with friends it was because of police brutality, civil rights and economic reform aimed at the poor. It wasn't about our own economical gain. Oh, no argument there, I spent enough time at Tahrir in Jan/Feb to appreciate that you had people there from pretty much every social group imaginable, and that they all had different axes to grind w/the Mubarak government. I just always rankle at the Disneyfied version sold to Westerners that either marginalizes or entirely omits the participation of leftists, unions, and religious conservatives.
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Jun 29, 2011 14:52
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Thanks for that, it's hard to really know what people think in Egypt when 99% of reports come via the Guardian Live Blogs. Speaking of which, here's some updates: Egypt quote:Ursula Lindsey explores the causes of the continuing unrest in Egypt on a smart post on the Arabist about the accountability of the police. I'm wondering if you two would agree with the above analysis? Libya NATO update quote:Sorties conducted 28 JUNE: 148 Dear god, it actually seems like NATO has stopped focusing on Tripoli and are actually bombing places where the rebels are figthing Gaddafi forces! It's a loving miracle. That's another pretty significant series of strikes in Brega, especially after the last 4 days of bombing: quote:24 JUNE: In the vicinity of Brega: 7 Command & Control Nodes, 1 Military Storage Facility, 14 Truck-Mounted Guns, 1 Tank, 2 Armoured Personnel Carriers, 3 Logistic Trucks, 7 Military Shelters. There were reports from Twitter yesterday NATO were attacking "one of the three barracks" in Gharyan, hopefully they'll hit the other two soon.
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Jun 29, 2011 14:57
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Over 1100 wounded due to the events of the riot in Cairo so far. And what the gently caress is going on here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMrMDNOFgQ0
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Jun 29, 2011 19:04
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Ham posted:Over 1100 wounded due to the events of the riot in Cairo so far. You know, that's actually really funny in a bleak sort of way.
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Jun 29, 2011 19:11
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Ham posted:Over 1100 wounded due to the events of the riot in Cairo so far. Ah, that's the Egpytian police I remember.
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Jun 29, 2011 19:12
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I bet that guy has another job driving one of those golf-ball-pickerupers on a driving range.
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Jun 29, 2011 19:44
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Ham posted:Over 1100 wounded due to the events of the riot in Cairo so far. Is that cop doing a dance with a machete? Also, is there any videos from the Gaddafi Troops side like the one Young Freud posted a few pages back? I'm interested in how different they are to the rebels, militarily.
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Jun 29, 2011 19:50
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Ace Oliveira posted:Is that cop doing a dance with a machete? I think it's his club. Is that some kinda like, signaling motion thing he's going through or what, did he just want to show the protesters that they have force AND rhythm on their side?
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Jun 29, 2011 20:05
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shotgunbadger posted:I think it's his club. I'm pretty sure it is just taunting.
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Jun 29, 2011 20:08
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