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goodfuldead posted:edit: your a drat liar too, I just looked it up and 388hp for the 5.7 "hemi" is not more than the ~412hp the new 5.0 makes. Unless your talking about the truck 5.0, which if so, who cares about trucks? Did you miss the entire conversation about the F150s engine that lead up to that comment?
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Jul 7, 2011 04:29
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goodfuldead posted:Chrysler still can't make a decent car to put their motors in, nor a transmission to put behind it. Moot point I say. ...and the new 8 speed autos will be out next year, too. Once again, Chrysler leapfrogs GM and Ford in transmission tech! 
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Jul 7, 2011 05:31
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I'm just glad we're all agreeing on the superiority of automatics finally.
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Jul 7, 2011 05:50
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kronix posted:220 horsepower and good torque numbers wasn't terrible in a budget 2005 "sports car". I still say that it didn't get terrible until 2007 when the mazdaspeed3 and the turbocharged Cobalt SS came around and kicked lots of rear end for under 23k. Hey, it's better than most 90s V8s. It isn't like it wasn't a step forward.
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Jul 7, 2011 09:23
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frozenphil posted:I'm just glad we're all agreeing on the superiority of automatics finally. Not so fast Phil, Porcshe has a 7-speed manual coming out this year which is pretty badass.
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Jul 7, 2011 14:17
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lazer_chicken posted:I disagree. When it debuted in 1997, other engines available were: You're conveniently ignoring GM's V8s at the time  LS1: 350hp (and availble in the Camaro in '98 at "305 hp") L31 Vortec: 255hp LT1: 275hp in the Camaro, 300hp if you were looking at a '96 C4 It may not have been completely outclassed in '97 when it came out, but it wasn't exactly world class either - and other manufacturers started ramping up their engines in a big way in the years immediately following.
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Jul 7, 2011 17:44
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IOwnCalculus posted:You're conveniently ignoring GM's V8s at the time ...you mean to tell me those v8s made more horsepower than Ford's v6‽
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Jul 7, 2011 18:17
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Q_res posted:Did you miss the entire conversation about the F150s engine that lead up to that comment? Yes I did, and I apologize to all parties.
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Jul 7, 2011 18:32
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Looks like there is a bit more news the next generation 'Stang. Unfortunately, we will be waiting until spring of 2014 for it. Also unfortunately, those are the only solid new details yet. http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2011/07/06/refreshed-mustang-coming-in-2013-next-generation-to-be-2015-model/
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Jul 7, 2011 20:29
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I'm going to take a guess and say the next Mustang will be the biggest disappointment since Ford stopped making Mustangs in 1974.
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Jul 7, 2011 20:42
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frozenphil posted:I'm going to take a guess and say the next Mustang will be the biggest disappointment since Ford stopped making Mustangs in 1974. It's going to have IRS and be manual-only. You're going to hate it.
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Jul 7, 2011 20:58
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oRenj9 posted:Looks like there is a bit more news the next generation 'Stang. Unfortunately, we will be waiting until spring of 2014 for it. Also unfortunately, those are the only solid new details yet. I nailed this, I absolutely want to say I told you so on the no new Mustang for the 2014 model year. Although I'm not sure anyone actually disagreed with me. The new Mustang is going to be smaller, lighter and come with more engine options and an IRS. A turbocharged 4, NA V6, eco-boosted 6 and direct injected coyote is on tap (although this will probably come earlier)
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Jul 7, 2011 21:07
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MikeyTsi posted:It's going to have IRS and be manual-only. You're going to hate it. I have no doubts that it will have IRS, which is why it's going to be a flop. Ford is chasing that elusive journalist market; a market full of people who would never buy a Mustang, regardless of the spec sheet. I just don't see the rationale in adding something that costs more, weighs more, and that your customers either don't want or don't notice. People are already griping about the price on a GT being solidly in the $30k range. You just can't expect the average v6 buyer to be willing to accept that price point too.
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Jul 7, 2011 21:27
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http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/06/kia-to-show-rear-drive-v8-coupe-concepts-in-frankfurt-detroit/ There's a V8 RWD Kia coupe in the pipeline. Hopefully it will have a pushrod engine and live axle so Mustang buyers will have something to buy after the Mustang turns into a 240SX.
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Jul 7, 2011 21:48
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Throatwarbler posted:http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/06/kia-to-show-rear-drive-v8-coupe-concepts-in-frankfurt-detroit/ You do realize that Mustangs haven't had a pushrod engine for 16 years, right?
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Jul 7, 2011 22:00
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I think dropping the live axel in the US market would be really stupid. They've made it work incredibly well.
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Jul 7, 2011 22:05
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frozenphil posted:You do realize that Mustangs haven't had a pushrod engine for 16 years, right? Why? You don't like pushrod engines?
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Jul 7, 2011 22:11
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Throatwarbler posted:http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/06/kia-to-show-rear-drive-v8-coupe-concepts-in-frankfurt-detroit/ Jesus, that is a hideous concept car in a hideous colour.
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Jul 7, 2011 22:26
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Throatwarbler posted:Why? You don't like pushrod engines? I have no beef with them, but you'd be hard pressed to make the case that the pushrod 5.0 is a better engine than the current DOHC 5.0.
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Jul 7, 2011 22:28
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frozenphil posted:I just don't see the rationale in adding something that costs more, weighs more, and that your customers either don't want or don't notice. IRS makes sense if you're going to base other things off the Mustang's chassis. Maybe the Falcon, a CLS/A7 style Lincoln or even a Lincoln coupe.
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Jul 7, 2011 23:37
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frozenphil posted:...you mean to tell me those v8s made more horsepower than Ford's v6‽ Hey, he included the 302, 4.6, and Chrysler 318 to try and show how 'comparable' the 4.0 was back then. Not every engine in 1997 was an anemic turd. Edit: This is all pointless bench racing, I think we can all still safely agree that people who bought 2010 Mustangs, especially the V6 model, should kick themselves.
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Jul 7, 2011 23:46
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frozenphil posted:You do realize that Mustangs haven't had a pushrod engine for 16 years, right? ...wasn't the 3.8L V6 a pushrod?
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Jul 8, 2011 01:12
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frozenphil posted:I have no doubts that it will have IRS, which is why it's going to be a flop. Ford is chasing that elusive journalist market; a market full of people who would never buy a Mustang, regardless of the spec sheet. I just don't see the rationale in adding something that costs more, weighs more, and that your customers either don't want or don't notice. I agree but the IRS in the Camaro hasn't hurt its sales. I have no doubt Ford will do it right this time. As for price, let people bitch, inflation sucks but the Mustang is still cheaper than the Camaro. I mean a loving well equipped taurus is 30+ and the SHO is nearly 40.
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Jul 8, 2011 01:52
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IOwnCalculus posted:Edit: This is all pointless bench racing, I think we can all still safely agree that people who bought 2010 Mustangs, especially the V6 model, should kick themselves. Unless they got a solid deal. I would be okay with paying $20k for a new 2010 GT.
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Jul 8, 2011 01:53
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The "must have live axle and V8" demographic is aging. Most younger buyers want IRS and a 6. And that's not even considering the global market. The 2014 will be a flop with the old timers but it will introduce the Mustang to a whole new demographic with money to spend.
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Jul 8, 2011 01:58
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The Mustang demographic is aging pure and simple. It only takes one look at the interior (and price) to tell that it was designed specifically for the 35+ crowd. Maybe Phil is right about the new 'Stang being a disappointment. The price point is already too high for the younger crowd, so making it appeal to them isn't in Ford's bet interest. Then again, if Ford managed to pull off a $17,000 base model Mustang, this could be very hot. A smaller, more widely used chassis will help them accomplish this. The boomers have proven that they are more than willing to go down-market and buy "young persons" cars, just look at Scions popularity with that demographic. I'm going to say it is a risky gamble, but it could pay off really big for Ford.
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Jul 8, 2011 02:09
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Killbot posted:The "must have live axle and V8" demographic is aging. Most younger buyers want IRS and a 6. And that's not even considering the global market. The 2014 will be a flop with the old timers but it will introduce the Mustang to a whole new demographic with money to spend. That's not true, even the old timers are understanding that technology moves on. There's always going to be a V8 Mustang while cars still have cylinders. It may not be the best selling Mustang but it'll always be there. That said less weight, better fuel economy and more go is exactly what car buyers today want. The Mustang now is in no way a family car so shrink the back seat and the trunk for all I care I can't fit anything but groceries back there anyways.
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Jul 8, 2011 02:11
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kronix posted:That said less weight, better fuel economy and more go is exactly what car buyers today want. The Mustang now is in no way a family car so shrink the back seat and the trunk for all I care I can't fit anything but groceries back there anyways. Seriously? I moved across the US in my V6 and practically fit my entire dorm room in it...
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Jul 8, 2011 02:18
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Are people being serious there, saying that no live axle at the backend of the Mustang means that it wont sell? Even Ford gave up on that poo poo in 2002 with the Falcon SWB sedans.
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Jul 8, 2011 02:37
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You Am I posted:Are people being serious there, saying that no live axle at the backend of the Mustang means that it wont sell? It will sell, but not nearly as well as it has. The rear in the current Mustang has proven itself to 9 second ETs at the drag strip and podium finishes on the road course. I just don't understand the clamoring for an IRS in the car.
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Jul 8, 2011 03:00
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shodanjr_gr posted:Seriously? I moved across the US in my V6 and practically fit my entire dorm room in it... Dorm room, fine. I had a Camaro in college and it worked too. I assume you don't plan on buying a tv bigger than 32' or anything larger than a small air conditioner.
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Jul 8, 2011 03:23
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kronix posted:That said less weight, better fuel economy and more go is exactly what car buyers today want. The Mustang now is in no way a family car so shrink the back seat and the trunk for all I care I can't fit anything but groceries back there anyways. The 2011 Mutang 5.0 is pretty drat big, I can sit in the passengers seat with my 6' friend behind me in the rear with no space issues. frozenphil posted:It will sell, but not nearly as well as it has. The rear in the current Mustang has proven itself to 9 second ETs at the drag strip and podium finishes on the road course. I just don't understand the clamoring for an IRS in the car. Chevy seems to have done a pretty good job making the ZR1 drag capable with the new halfshaft setup.
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Jul 8, 2011 03:46
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kronix posted:Dorm room, fine. I had a Camaro in college and it worked too. I assume you don't plan on buying a tv bigger than 32' or anything larger than a small air conditioner. You are seriously complaining for being unable to fit a 40' TV in the trunk of a 2 door coupe (let alone the fact that you might be able to get it in there by dropping the back seats, although I'm not sure it would clear the trunk opening).
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Jul 8, 2011 03:48
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Muffinpox posted:Chevy seems to have done a pretty good job making the ZR1 drag capable with the new halfshaft setup. How much does it cost again? The new 5.0 is faster than the ZR1 if you add a blower and drag radials to it.  shodanjr_gr posted:You are seriously complaining for being unable to fit a 40' TV in the trunk of a 2 door coupe (let alone the fact that you might be able to get it in there by dropping the back seats, although I'm not sure it would clear the trunk opening).
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Jul 8, 2011 03:48
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kronix posted:Dorm room, fine. I had a Camaro in college and it worked too. I assume you don't plan on buying a tv bigger than 32' or anything larger than a small air conditioner. To be fair, a 32 foot TV is pretty big.
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Jul 8, 2011 05:16
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Is the ZR1 on drag radials as well? If it isn't, that's not a fair comparison. Drag radials offer huge benefits vs. street tires during those kinds of competition. The blower on the ZR1 can always be toyed with as well. I love those Mustang magazines with "ZR1 KILLELRRRRR" on the cover showing off some ultra-blown car with huge Mickey Thompsons. Not everyone lives their life a quarter mile at a time. I wouldn't be too sure about the younger generation not having money to spend. Maybe not in the US, but here in Asia they all have the cool toys.
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Jul 8, 2011 05:28
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Killbot posted:Is the ZR1 on drag radials as well? If it isn't, that's not a fair comparison. Drag radials offer huge benefits vs. street tires during those kinds of competition. The blower on the ZR1 can always be toyed with as well. I love those Mustang magazines with "ZR1 KILLELRRRRR" on the cover showing off some ultra-blown car with huge Mickey Thompsons. Not everyone lives their life a quarter mile at a time. Fine. Put a turbo kit on the 5.0, keep the stock wheels, and blow the doors off a ZR1.
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Jul 8, 2011 05:38
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I think you missed my point. Some Mustang owners/fans (like yourself apparently) have a one-dimensional view on judging cars, ie. 0-60 times, Nurburgring, etc. Others would like to have a car that's easy to live with AND has good performance. I fall in the latter camp, and I believe that more complex and advanced tech (including the suspension) will make the car better to own and use every day. But if you're driving Mustangs against ZR1s all day then yeah, the current one is good enough.
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Jul 8, 2011 06:43
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Killbot posted:I think you missed my point. Some Mustang owners/fans (like yourself apparently) have a one-dimensional view on judging cars, ie. 0-60 times, Nurburgring, etc. Others would like to have a car that's easy to live with AND has good performance. I fall in the latter camp, and I believe that more complex and advanced tech (including the suspension) will make the car better to own and use every day. What I think you're not getting is that the people currently buying Mustangs are buying them specifically because it falls into the one-dimension that they want. They are interested (for better or worse) in 1/4 mile and 0-60 times and there is nothing else that is as good at those things at the price. I think Phil's view is that if you make the Mustang a "better" car with an IRS, etc, etc, it might have a broader journalist appeal but will also be competing against a much broader market segment with less product differentiation. Outside of AI, not many people are going to cross-shop a Mustang and a BMW, nor will people shopping for an Accord suddenly consider it. Once you remove it from it's current niche there really isn't anything that makes it significantly more desirable than a lot of other choices. Once it goes IRS I'll be more likely to look at one, but that's probably because I'll have close to 150k on the GTO by then.
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Jul 8, 2011 12:31
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You are correct, I am not speaking from the US market perspective who had Mustangs to buy for all these years. I am speaking from the overseas (global) market that Ford is trying to target with all their cars, Mustang included. In order for that to happen Ford must make it less of a knuckle-dragger and more "civilized" as Top Gear likes to drag out and say. Even if this will result in the Mustang competing against more cars, it will be competing against cars that were previously considered better. It's starting now, with comparisons between the Boss and the M3 being drawn and that's outside of AI. I've had people with M3's say they were seriously considering the new 5.0. As long as the Mustang features RWD with a V6/8, there aren't many cars out there to cross-shop against it, so it will remain a fairly specialized product. And the name itself carries a lot of heritage even overseas. I doubt Ford will drop the ball on the redesign simply by virtue of changing the suspension. I'm sure some enterprising individuals will figure out how to retrofit solid axles onto the chassis for the drag enthusiasts, if not as an outright option available from Ford Racing.
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Jul 8, 2011 13:07
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