Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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shotgunbadger: Nov 18, 2008; WEEK 4 - RETIRED

Rosscifer posted:

NATO isn't blindly "shelling" cities. Every target is checked and approved by the chain of command which is in contact with the rebel forces as much as possible. And propaganda is being used to warn Gadaffi's troops of impending attacks. And NATO's track record here has been excellent. You're being dishonest.

You do grasp that the CQ troops are, in large amounts, conscripts right? Like, the 'contact with rebels' is making sure they don't hit rebels, it's not like they're blowing up empty buildings.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 00:24

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 20:21

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

shotgunbadger posted:

You do grasp that the CQ troops are, in large amounts, conscripts right? Like, the 'contact with rebels' is making sure they don't hit rebels, it's not like they're blowing up empty buildings.

Hey bro, here is your reality, you have these two choices:

1) Kill a number of CQ conscripts
2) Allow a crazed dictator to slaughter his people 'like dogs' and let him 'paint Misrata's rivers red with blood'.

Oh, and also, you have about 24 hours to make your choice, after this the people of Libya will have been genocided. Also, these are in fact your only realistic choices, any attempts at dialogue or diplomacy will not work because you're dealing with Colonel Qhadaffi who has gone batshit insane. 2) is going to happen for sure unless you do option 1). You can claim that there's other ways but the sad reality is that if you do not intervene with military force within a day, these people will die. A choice not to attack is a choice to let these innocents die, along with their revolution and any hope of a free country.

What's your choice and why?

Bisse fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jul 12, 2011

# ? Jul 12, 2011 00:44

shotgunbadger: Nov 18, 2008; WEEK 4 - RETIRED

Before I answer, how many children are on the bus buried in the desert and how much explosives did the terrorist use?

# ? Jul 12, 2011 00:46

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

shotgunbadger posted:

Before I answer, how many children are on the bus buried in the desert and how much explosives did the terrorist use?

You're trolling, but anyway, let's play along:

- gently caress if I know
and
- gently caress if I know

You just wasted 20 hours, you have 4 hours left. Armor and missiles is rolling towards Misratah as we speak.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 00:48

shotgunbadger: Nov 18, 2008; WEEK 4 - RETIRED

Well for one I was joking about the dumb 'well what if there's kids in a bus in the desert/a bomb in every city and the only way to find out where is to torture a dude, what THEN?' argument.

For two, if I only have four hours I can't really do anything or send anything over but a condemnation so I guess I lose.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 00:50

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

quote:

Muammar Gaddafi's regime is in talks with the French government, one of the Libyan leader's sons said in an interview published on Monday.

A spokesman for the French foreign ministry denied the government was in direct talks with Gaddafi but said "we pass [the Libyan regime] messages in liaison" with the rebels and other allied countries.

However, the opposition National Transitional Council (NTC) said it would not negotiate with Gaddafi until he stepped down from power. A spokesman said the Council believed Saif al-Islam was bluffing in order to harm relationships between the NTC and France.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 00:55

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

shotgunbadger posted:

So who wants to put odds on Obama trying to push in another 'humanitarian action', or do you guys think he learned from the Libya flack?

Once again, you haven't the faintest clue what the gently caress you're talking about. Obama wanted absolutely nothing to do with Libya and only intervened after Clinton and Rice dragged him kicking and screaming to the UN. After the intervention began, the US tried to offload the responsibility to NATO as quickly as possible, getting rid of it in less than 2 weeks. Less than a week after this, the US ran it's last round of sorties in the conflict on April 4th (ie the US had an active combat role for only 15 days). Aside from a handful of predator drone strikes, it hasn't fired so much as a bullet in the direction of Libya in over 3 months, and has been perfectly content to sit pretty and provide logistical support for NATO. Say what you will about Obama's handling of the situation, but it's been made abundantly clear that he wants the US to intervene as little as it can get away with and absolutely nothing more.

(in other words, no, he won't even entertain the possibility of a Syrian intervention in his wildest dreams unless Hillary Clinton kidnaps his daughter or something)

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:00

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

shotgunbadger posted:

For two, if I only have four hours I can't really do anything or send anything over but a condemnation so I guess I lose.

You had 4 hours to make your decision left, until the point where it would be too late. Anyway, you chose inaction, you chose to let them die.

The point of the little game was:

The libyan conflict is the most black-and-white conflict to my knowledge since the 19'th century. You have a murderous dictator about to kill his own people and rape his own women, with no outside interests in the country or the conflict at all besides humanitarian ones. Oil, politics, companies, money, was not a factor. If anything, the oil prices went up during the conflict, every NATO country is risking diplomatic relations, and every involved player will lose money.

It is literally Sauron vs the hobbits, it is literally pure good vs pure evil. To be anti-ALL-WAR-EVER to the point that you would not intervene here is bizarrely hypocritical. By not intervening you would be supporting war, death and genocide.

This situation was really happening, for real, the NATO leaders had to make a real choice and couldn't pretend it didn't exist, under time pressure. We may not have done the best thing possible. 3 months after the intervention it's easy to talk smart about what NATO should have done. But under time pressure, nad with such a ridiculously black-and-white conflict, NATO chose the fastest and the best decision to not let this happen that they could have chosen.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:07

shotgunbadger: Nov 18, 2008; WEEK 4 - RETIRED

So wait I had 4 hours to pick, but at the end of those 4 hours he killed everyone? This almost seems like it was a construction designed to beat up a strawman idea!

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:08

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Bisse posted:

You had 4 hours to make your decision left, until the point where it would be too late. Anyway, you chose inaction, you chose to let them die.

The point of the little game was:

The libyan conflict is the most black-and-white conflict to my knowledge since the 19'th century. You have a murderous dictator about to kill his own people and rape his own women, with no outside interests in the country or the conflict at all besides humanitarian ones. Oil, politics, companies, money, was not a factor. If anything, the oil prices went up during the conflict, every NATO country is risking diplomatic relations, and every involved player will lose money.

It is literally Sauron vs the hobbits, it is literally pure good vs pure evil. To be anti-ALL-WAR-EVER to the point that you would not intervene here is bizarrely hypocritical. By not intervening you would be supporting war, death and genocide.

This situation was really happening, for real, the NATO leaders had to make a real choice and couldn't pretend it didn't exist, under time pressure. We may not have done the best thing possible. 3 months after the intervention it's easy to talk smart about what NATO should have done. But under time pressure, nad with such a ridiculously black-and-white conflict, NATO chose the fastest and the best decision to not let this happen that they could have chosen.

Nice strawman, now how do you get from preventing CQ bombing civilians, to arming a volatile group of people, supporting their advance into other civilian areas and trying to overthrow a government?

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:14

shotgunbadger: Nov 18, 2008; WEEK 4 - RETIRED

Oh also, never say a conflict is 'pure evil' vs anything, when you start doing that you go down a really hosed path of 'so it's ok to murder and destroy these people, being pure evil and all'.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:16

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

Jut posted:

Nice strawman, now how do you get from preventing CQ bombing civilians, to arming a volatile group of people, supporting their advance into other civilian areas and trying to overthrow a government?

Yo go from there to this from the logic of 'If Qhadaffi wins, the genocide will happen anyway, so there's would have been no point to the conflict.' If Qhadaffi is allowed to somehow come back to power, you can't possibly know what will happen and it could end very, very nasty. And we have a stake in it to, since he has demonstrably committed acts of terror in european countries before, and has gone on Libyan State TV threatening to do it again as soon as he can.

Qhadaffi is still in power, the threat to the civilians is still there, the world is doing what it can to prevent a disaster.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:18

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

shotgunbadger posted:

Oh also, never say a conflict is 'pure evil' vs anything, when you start doing that you go down a really hosed path of 'so it's ok to murder and destroy these people, being pure evil and all'.

Ok so let's go back to basics: You have the choice to kill CQ soldiers or let them murder libyan civilians, can we get a choice this time?

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:19

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

shotgunbadger posted:

You do grasp that the CQ troops are, in large amounts, conscripts right? Like, the 'contact with rebels' is making sure they don't hit rebels, it's not like they're blowing up empty buildings.

You do understand what conscription means right? It isn't the creation a protected class of not-really-soldiers who the opposing forces are not supposed to harm.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:25

AllanGordon: Jan 26, 2010; by Shine

farraday posted:

You do understand what conscription means right? It isn't the creation a protected class of not-really-soldiers who the opposing forces are not supposed to harm.

But they used to be civilians! War crime! War crime!

# ? Jul 12, 2011 01:46

BCR: Jan 23, 2011

quote:

Online from Reuters:

..."The problem right now, frankly, in Libya is that ... within the next 90 days a lot of these other countries could be exhausted in terms of their capabilities, and so the United States, you know, is going to be looked at to help fill the gap," Panetta said, speaking to troops in Baghdad on Monday...

With the conflict stalemated, cracks are emerging within the NATO alliance. Some member states are balking at the burden on their recession-hit finances, and many are frustrated there has been no breakthrough...

Link.

quote:

Online from Emirates:

Among the European countries involved in Libya, Norway has announced it will withdraw its six F-16 fighters on August 1, and Italy is pulling out its Garibaldi aircraft carrier, for a saving of 80 million euros.

Link.

So, the EU debt crisis combined with no stockpiles, leads to what? I don't think the US is going to step up. So blame game, UN waffling, partition of Libya? Barring him being assassinated, it looks like Gaddafi 'wins' if he holds on for another couple of months.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 02:40

Bisse: Jun 26, 2005

BCR posted:

So, the EU debt crisis combined with no stockpiles, leads to what? I don't think the US is going to step up. So blame game, UN waffling, partition of Libya? Barring him being assassinated, it looks like Gaddafi 'wins' if he holds on for another couple of months.

While this is horrible news, NATO pulling out now is not necessarily an automatic loss. The rebels have a lot of cities and have started to gain some momentum. They have an acceptable cash and supply flow as far as i'm aware. They also have the majority of the people's support. Qhadaffi has a large amount of his assets frozen, is losing people support and may or may not be running out of other resources such as arms and ammo.

Although Qhadaffi has a good chance to win if NATO pulls out, the rebels still have a chance, NATO has given them a ton of ground and momentum that they could use to win the war.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 02:56

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Norway agreed to deploy for three months and extended the deployment of four of its jets until August 1st. Completing your agreed upon role with a slight extension is is a rather broad interpretation of pulling out or proof of cracks in the coalition.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 03:02

BCR: Jan 23, 2011

I was thinking more of Italy than Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/67akxbj
http://tinyurl.com/68b5hl5

Their finances are threatening to go down the toilet, and they're bringing a carrier back home to save 80 million.

I'll edit this when I find the articles saying how much this was costing the UK and France and their stockpile levels. The point I'd like to make is no stockpile reserves, no money and no US bailout = ?

# ? Jul 12, 2011 03:20

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Recall that the whole point of the intervention was to prevent Gaffy from using his military apparatus against the civilians of Libya. Given that most of that apparatus has been bombed to smithereens, I think it's safe to say that NATO's effort should be considered a success. I mean, if NATO pulled out 100% tomorrow, it wouldn't really change the fact that Gaffy's military is at a fraction of it's former strength and is having a hard enough time holding on to it's current assets, let alone advancing on to pound the poo poo out of other civilian population centers.

NATO's intent wasn't to make this a case open, case shut revolution, it only wanted to ensure that the entire civilian population of Libya didn't get bludgeoned into submission by Gaffy and that the rebels at least had a fighting chance to establish a less comically brutal Libyan government. Mission Accomplished.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 03:32

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

BCR posted:

I was thinking more of Italy than Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/67akxbj
http://tinyurl.com/68b5hl5

Their finances are threatening to go down the toilet, and they're bringing a carrier back home to save 80 million.

I'll edit this when I find the articles saying how much this was costing the UK and France and their stockpile levels. The point I'd like to make is no stockpile reserves, no money and no US bailout = ?

Italy's debt problem is not really deficit driven as I understand it but from a general lack of growth and fairly endemic corruption. While worrisome, I think the chances of default are rather minor and that while it will undoubtedly seek to minimize the cost of operations, it was already committing far less to the operation than its proximity to Libya would suggest.

Simultaneously that very same proximity means it can not write off Libya in any way and antagonizing the NTC after bombing Ghaddafi would be a fairly bad idea. Of course PM Burlesconi would have a hell of a time trying to limbo under my estimation of his intelligence, but he may try anyways. In any case the very idea that anyone who committed troops to Iraq for years would have issues with the Libyan engagement he has claimed is pretty drat laughable. But hey some Republicans tried to pull that too.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 03:39

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

farraday posted:

You do understand what conscription means right? It isn't the creation a protected class of not-really-soldiers who the opposing forces are not supposed to harm.

Yea, those poor fuckers who were dragged into working for Libya state TV totally deserved it when their news channel was bombed.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 07:48

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Except that never happened. They hit communication towers near the Jamahiriya media building in Tripoli. There were no casualties and the building wasn't hit.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 07:54

ArchRanger: Mar 19, 2007; I'm tired of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with 'em there.

To add to that, I can't find any source that claims civilians were hit in that strike apart from Libyan State TV (other than people quoting it). If civilians had been killed, they'd have had western reporters all over it.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 08:09

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

BCR posted:

I was thinking more of Italy than Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/67akxbj
http://tinyurl.com/68b5hl5

Their finances are threatening to go down the toilet, and they're bringing a carrier back home to save 80 million.

I'll edit this when I find the articles saying how much this was costing the UK and France and their stockpile levels. The point I'd like to make is no stockpile reserves, no money and no US bailout = ?

This is one of the reason we've seen a shift in strategy by NATO from bombing Tripoli and hoping Gaddafi gives up, to helping the rebels directly at the frontlines. I expect the next 6-8 weeks to be key, with the rebels getting direct help from NATO they need to start advancing on cities, if they don't, then they'll never be able to win this on the ground, and will have to come to a agreement with the regime. If Zliten, Gheyran, and Brega aren't under rebel control in a few weeks then the rebels aren't going to go anywhere.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 08:21

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This just popped up on Twitter
Ahmad Wali Karzai, a brother of Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai, has been killed.
He's the one who is accused of controlling Afghanistans heroin and opium production.
[edit]Apparently shot by a "good friend" who was acting as a bodyguard.

Anyway...

Live Blogs July 12th
AJE Libya
AJE Egypt
AJE Yemen
AJE Syria
AJE Freedom Flotilla
Feb17.info
LibyaFeb17
Guardian

Nafusa
Expats return to Libya to aid rebels
As Ramadan approaches, Libyan rebels worry about mounting odds

Misrata
Fighting Gaddafi a family affair in Libya's Misrata
Libya's wealthy use cash to take fight to Gaddafi
Libya's ragtag rebels discover discipline in battle Read this if you are going to read any of the articles, it's a very good insight into the training and discipline of the rebels in Misrata.

Few interesting quotes from those stories
From Nafusa:

quote:

As rebels have won terrain in the mountains, troops loyal to Gaddafi have sought to slow their progress by using antitank and antipersonnel mines, according to rebels and Human Rights Watch researchers.

�Placing mines means rebel fighters can�t do a stealth encroachment on their position,� said Sidney Kwiram, a Human Rights Watch researcher who has been documenting minefields in the mountains. �If there continues to be a pattern of mining areas where Gaddafi forces are taking position, civilians will have a hard time returning. There are serious risks for their safety.�

After the battle for al-Qualish on Wednesday, Human Rights Watch said it documented 240 antipersonnel mines and 72 antitank mines that had been placed along roads the rebels used to move in on the village.

quote:

If rebels succeed in capturing Gharyan, Ibrahim said, they would plan an offensive toward Tripoli, from several locations in the mountains.

quote:

Rebels in the mountains say they are grateful that NATO has stepped up efforts to degrade Gaddafi�s fighting power in and around the mountains. But they say the coalition could do far more. For instance, the rebels in the mountains do not have a direct line of communication with NATO headquarters and must exchange messages through European military advisers in the eastern city of Benghazi.

�NATO has helped us a lot and saved us in many battles,� said Col. Abdullah Mahdi, another air force officer who defected and joined the rebels fighting in the mountains. �But why can�t a NATO representative come here and stay?�

Zliten

quote:

Youssef and his sons are part of the 1st battalion of the Al Marsa regiment, a unit that is among the rebel forces that pushed Gaddafi loyalists out of Misrata and back to within about 10 km (6 miles) of the centre of Zlitan, a town that now stands between the rebels and the Libyan capital, Tripoli, 160 km (96 miles) away.

quote:

Some heavy weapons are given to the fighters in Misrata by the main rebel leadership in Benghazi in eastern Libya, others are scavenged, but the gaps are filled, say the rebels, by cutting deals with private arms dealers outside Libya who demand cash up front.

A single Kalashnikov rifle bought by that route costs $3,000. Askutri now has access to his bank accounts via Benghazi, and uses the funds to buy regular consignments of guns and ammunition for his men.

Helped in part by the weapons acquired with donors' cash, the anti-Gaddafi militias forced government troops out of Misrata over weeks of bitter fighting.

Dipolmacy

quote:

Italy called on Tuesday for a political solution to the war in Libya that would see Muammar Gaddafi �leaving the stage�, as the rebel campaign to oust him ran into stiff resistance from government forces.

With rifts already apparent within NATO, the United States warned that some allies engaged in the campaign against Gaddafi could see their forces �exhausted� within three months.

Rebel fighters are seemingly unable to make much progress in their fight to end Gaddafi�s 41-year rule and calls for a diplomatic resolution have mounted.

Rebels took more casualties on Monday, stalled in their advance towards Tripoli. Shelling by forces loyal to Gaddafi killed eight rebel fighters and injured 25, according to hospital sources in the rebel stronghold of Misrata.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini�s call for a political way out came after his Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi exposed rifts within NATO by saying he had not supported the war on Libya, and France bridled at the slow pace of efforts to end the crisis. Read full story here.

quote:

Egypt�s state news agency says a court has ordered the state-owned satellite operator Nilesat to take 14 Libyan TV stations off the air.

The court decision Monday follows a lawsuit by Libyan citizens and Egyptian lawyers who said the stations owned by the regime of Moammar Gadhafi incite against the rebels fighting to topple the leader, in power for 42 years.

The stations are off the air until they can find another satellite to beam them.

Libya�s rebels have launched their homegrown satellite TV station in May to counter the regime�s powerful media machine, which depicts the opposition as terrorists and drums up patriotic fervor by beaming images of burning buildings hit by NATO airstrikes.

quote:

The White House says President Barack Obama told Russian President Dmitri Medvedev that the U.S. is prepared to support Russian-led negotiations in Libya.

However, Obama told the Russian president the U.S. would only back the negotiations if they lead to a democratic transition and longtime Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi steps aside.

Medvedev has joined the West in urging Gadhafi to step down, and envoys from the Kremlin have traveled to Libya to meet with representatives of Gadhafi�s government.

Obama and Medvedev spoke Monday. Obama also expressed his condolences for the sinking of an aging cruise ship on a river near Moscow. As many as 129 people were killed in the incident.

The two leaders also discussed Sudan, Afghanistan and Russia�s pending accession to the World Trade Organization.

NATO report

quote:

Sorties conducted 11 JULY: 132
Strike sorties conducted 11 JULY: 49

Key Hits 11 JULY:
In the vicinity of Misrata: 2 Armed Vehicles.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 3 Radar, 3 Surface-to-Air-Missile Launchers, 1 Anti-Aircraft Gun.
In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Zuwara: 3 Military Facilities, 7 Military Vehicles, 1 Armed Vehicle.

Interestingly Zuwara west of Tripoli and Zawiyah, perhaps being used to reinforce Nasfusa. That military storage facility in Waddan has been hit for nearly two weeks now, it must be huge.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jul 12, 2011

# ? Jul 12, 2011 08:40

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Brown Moses posted:

Interestingly Zuwara west of Tripoli and Zawiyah, perhaps being used to reinforce Nasfusa. That military storage facility in Waddan has been hit for nearly two weeks now, it must be huge.

You would think they would get the hell out of there after the first couple of days bombing...let alone wait two loving weeks.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:11

AllanGordon: Jan 26, 2010; by Shine

Brown Moses posted:

This just popped up on Twitter
Ahmad Wali Karzai, a brother of Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai, has been killed.
He's the one who is accused of controlling Afghanistans heroin and opium production.
[edit]Apparently shot by a "good friend" who was acting as a bodyguard

Didn't his cousin get shot and killed recently too? Damnit Karzai is everyone in your family a drug dealer.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:18

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

AllanGordon posted:

Didn't his cousin get shot and killed recently too? Damnit Karzai is everyone in your family a drug dealer.

I'm surprised he's still in power to be honest.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:33

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

A thing just happened in Egypt
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14116590

quote:

An Egyptian pipeline supplying gas to Israel and Jordan was hit by a strong explosion, state media and officials said.

Egypt's Mena news agency said the blast occurred near the town of al-Arish in the north of the Sinai peninsula.

Masked gunmen ordered the guards at the terminal to leave before blowing it up, security sources told AP news agency.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Isn't that the second time a pipeline has been hit in a week?

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:36

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Brown Moses posted:

Isn't that the second time a pipeline has been hit in a week?

Yup, and the 4th time this year. I guess someone REALLY wants to stir the pot with Israel.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Guardian live blog just posted a summary of events in Egypt:

quote:

� Protesters in Egypt have rejected an offer by the prime minister Essam Sharaf to reshuffle his cabinet within a week. Crowds protesting slow reforms and foot-dragging in prosecuting ex-president Hosni Mubarak said they were not satisfied.

� The head of Egypt's security forces has defied orders by Sharaf to fire police officers accused of killing protesters during the uprising, the Washington Post reports. It says the dispute illustrates the strains of a government facing escalating public pressure to bring former regime figures to justice.

� The Independent's veteran Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk is troubled by what he's seen in Cairo:

quote:
Something has gone badly wrong with the Egyptian revolution. The ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces � just what the "Supreme" bit means is anyone's guess � is toadying up to middle-aged Muslim Brothers and Salafists, the generals chatting to the pseudo-Islamists while the young, the liberal, poor and wealthy who brought down Hosni Mubarak are being ignored. The economy is collapsing. Anarchy creeps through the streets of Egyptian cities each night. Sectarianism flourishes in the darkness. The cops are going back to their dirty ways.

It really is that bad.

Ham, I hope you can say something reassuring.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:44

AllanGordon: Jan 26, 2010; by Shine

Did they ever reopen the border with Palestine?

I remember them opening it for like a weekend and then read they closed it again pretty soon afterwards.

Apparently it was kind of hard to get a pass as well.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:44

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

I really don't know what to think about the police issue. They have been accused of killing protesters, not found guilty. They are entitled to a fair trial just like anyone else, and if they are found guilty then throw them to the wolves for all I care. Firing them for being accused, and because the mob demands it is just wrong as would be ignoring the results of the referendum and delaying elections because the people who lost are kicking up a fuss (although the MB really screwed the pooch by making it a god given duty to vote in their favour).
I really don't envy the job the council has over there.

Of course if the council are trying to bury bad news then gently caress them, but mob justice and kangaroo courts are not the answer.

Jut fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Jul 12, 2011

# ? Jul 12, 2011 09:50

shotgunbadger: Nov 18, 2008; WEEK 4 - RETIRED

Jut posted:

I'm surprised he's still in power to be honest.

It's super easy for the puppet of the invading army to stay in power.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 15:40

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Brown Moses posted:

Ham, I hope you can say something reassuring.

Not really. No one really knows what's going to happen, Sharaf is held back by the military. If things don't get better by the end of this month, he'll most likely resign.

For a neutral observer, it seems like the beginning of a military junta.

If Mubarak isn't tried/gets off on his charges, it'll be chaotic.

Oh and Jut no one wants kangaroo courts, in fact the same protestors are protesting the fact the officers are getting fired without a trial, it's just that there are no fair trials, the current courts are disregarding the evidence and giving not guilty sentences because the judges are corrupt former-NDP. We don't have a jury system, 3 judges pass out sentences and if it's a not guilty sentence, an appeal is useless as you can't give a punishment higher than the first sentence, only lower. This means that if Mubarak and his sons were to receive not guilty sentences on their charges they'd be off like nothing happened.

# ? Jul 12, 2011 15:45