- Chortles
- Dec 29, 2008
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Recent events make it sound like Egypt had a case of "the regime dumped Mubarak to save itself (under a new face), only for the people to see through that (somewhat)"...
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Jul 12, 2011 16:50
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- Adbot
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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Jun 8, 2024 22:42
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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shotgunbadger posted:
It's super easy for the puppet of the invading army to stay in power.
Karzai's hardly a puppet; the US doesn't like him or want him in power aymore because he does't cooperate very well and causes problems.
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Jul 12, 2011 17:32
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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Ace Oliveira posted:
He's basically Ngo Dinh Diem now. Complete with a drug lord brother.
This is absolutely false.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/Half-Brother-of-Afghan-President-Karzai-Assassinated-125400748.html
Assassinated Drug Lord Brother is correct.
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Jul 12, 2011 17:52
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- Lascivious Sloth
- Apr 26, 2008
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by sebmojo
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Diplomacy
quote:Widespread discussions were being held between Tripoli and other key countries to end the crisis in Libya but there were no full-scale negotiations, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said on Tuesday.
"Everybody is in contact with everybody. The Libyan regime is sending messengers everywhere, to Turkey, New York, Paris. There are contacts but it's not a negotiation proper at this stage," Juppe said on France Info state radio.
Juppe also said: "Emissaries are telling us Gaddafi is ready to go, let's talk about it," he said, without saying who the emissaries were, and he repeated calls for Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to step down.
quote: Switzerland said it is dispatching a diplomat to the rebel-held Libyan city of Benghazi to open an office aimed at strengthening its ties with the Libyan National Transitional Council.
"By sending a special envoy to Benghazi, Switzerland is signaling its intent to strengthen its presence there, and to intensify its political relations with the Libyan National Transitional Council," said the Swiss Foreign Ministry.
quote:Turkey has invited China and Russia to join for the first time discussions on Libya as part of a contact group of major powers, to convene this week in Istanbul, a Turkish official said on Tuesday.
"Russia and China have been invited as permanent members of the UN Security Council. We think they will participate but no information has reached us so far on what level," foreign ministry spokesman Selcuk Unal told reporters.
The so-called International Contact Group on Libya, scheduled to meet on Friday in Istanbul, includes the countries participating in the NATO-led campaign targeting Gaddafi's regime and regional players.
quote:French Prime Minister Francois Fillon said "A political solution [in Libya] is more than ever indispensable and is beginning to take shape."
Fillion was speaking to a parliamentary commission, which is expected to vote later in the day on whether to extend operations in Libya.
NATO
quote:France's lower house of parliament has voted to extend military operations in Libya, keeping French forces in a wider NATO effort to protect civilians and support a rebellion against Muammar Gaddafi.
The National Assembly voted overwhelmingly to grant further funding for the military operation nearly four months after French planes started bombing troops loyal to Gaddafi in eastern Libya, with 482 deputies voting in favour and 27 against.
quote:Two French military aircraft taking part in NATO-led operations against the Gaddafi regime had to make emergency landings in Malta on Tuesday, civil aviation authorities told the AFP.
A tyre on one of the planes burst as it touched down on the runway with emergency service vehicles standing by. Sources said the planes were armed. The other had failed to refuel while in flight, the sources said.
Regime
quote:REUTERS - Libya could face a shortage of food because a lack of fuel has prevented it from bringing in most of this season's grain harvest, Muammar Gaddafi's agriculture minister, Abdul Almajeed Elgowood, said.
It is harvest time and we just harvested 20 per cent (of the crop) because we do not have means of transport because of the fuel shortage ... We used to import 1 million tonnes (of grain) per year, but with the embargo and United Nations bureaucracy we are afraid that we could face a shortage.
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Jul 12, 2011 23:20
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- Jut
- May 16, 2005
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by Ralp
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Ham posted:
Not really. No one really knows what's going to happen, Sharaf is held back by the military. If things don't get better by the end of this month, he'll most likely resign.
For a neutral observer, it seems like the beginning of a military junta.
If Mubarak isn't tried/gets off on his charges, it'll be chaotic.
Oh and Jut no one wants kangaroo courts, in fact the same protestors are protesting the fact the officers are getting fired without a trial, it's just that there are no fair trials, the current courts are disregarding the evidence and giving not guilty sentences because the judges are corrupt former-NDP. We don't have a jury system, 3 judges pass out sentences and if it's a not guilty sentence, an appeal is useless as you can't give a punishment higher than the first sentence, only lower. This means that if Mubarak and his sons were to receive not guilty sentences on their charges they'd be off like nothing happened.
Brown Moses posted:
Only Ben Ali getting convicted of every crime going.
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Jul 13, 2011 05:09
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- Chortles
- Dec 29, 2008
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Wouldn't those "neutral" judges actually have to be imported?
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Jul 13, 2011 06:22
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Human Rights Watch have just published a report on the human rights violations by rebels in the Nafusa region, I highly recommend reading it as it explains the apparant reasons for their actions, for example looting hospitals for equipment to take to the main rebel hospital in Zintan, and tribal issues. During a BBC interview with HRW about this report the HRW representitive said that these violations pale in comparison to the wide scale atrocities by Gaddafi troops, so keep that in mind as well. That's not to excuse the actions of the Nafusa rebels, they suck too:
quote:Libya: Opposition Forces Should Protect Civilians and Hospitals
Rebel forces in Libya should protect civilians and civilian property in areas they control, Human Rights Watch said today. The rebel forces should hold accountable anyone from their ranks responsible for looting, arson, and abuse of civilians in recently captured towns in western Libya, Human Rights Watch said.
In four towns captured by rebels in the Nafusa Mountains over the past month, rebel fighters and supporters have damaged property, burned some homes, looted from hospitals, homes, and shops, and beaten some individuals alleged to have supported government forces, Human Rights Watch said.
Human Rights Watch witnessed some of these acts, interviewed witnesses to others, and spoke with a rebel commander about the abuses.
"Opposition leaders should halt and punish all rebel abuses" said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. "The rebel authorities have a duty to protect civilians and their property, especially hospitals, and discipline anyone responsible for looting or other abuse."
Rebel forces seized control of al-Awaniya, Rayayinah, and Zawiyat al-Bagul in mid-June 2011, ousting government forces that had used the towns as a base for attacks against rebel-held territory - some of them indiscriminate attacks on civilian-inhabited areas. Rebel forces captured al-Qawalish on July 6.
In all four towns, some residents had left when government forces first arrived to fight the rebels in April and May. In all the towns but Rayayinah, most of the remaining residents fled when government forces withdrew, apparently fearing reprisals from rebel forces.
Al-Awaniya and Zawiyat al-Bagul are home to members of the Mesheshiya tribe, known for its loyalty to the Libyan government and Muammar Gaddafi.
The rebel military commander in the Nafusa Mountains, Col. El-Moktar Firnana, admitted that some abuses had taken place after rebels captured the towns, but said such attacks violated orders issued to the rebel forces not to attack civilians or damage civilian property. He claimed that some people had been punished, but did not say how many people or for what offenses.
"If we hadn't issued directives, people would have burned these towns down to the ground," he told Human Rights Watch.
In al-Qawalish on July 7, Human Rights Watch saw people with rebel t-shirts and hats, some of them armed, loading items looted from stores onto trucks with rebel markings. Five houses, which Human Rights Watch had seen intact the day before when government forces withdrew, were on fire. Three more houses and one shop were on fire during visits on July 10 and 11, and at least six other houses appeared to have been newly burned.
Al-Awaniya and Zawiyat al-Bagul appeared empty of residents during several visits by Human Rights Watch between July 2 and 10. Houses on three streets in al-Awaniya and two streets in Zawiyat al-Bagul that Human Rights Watch inspected had been ransacked. The stores along the main streets in both towns had been broken into and looted.
Local residents told Human Rights Watch that the Libyan government had brought members of the Mesheshiya tribe to al-Awaniya from other towns approximately 30 years ago, a resettlement that continues to cause tension with neighboring towns.
In Rayayinah, one resident who stayed said that rebels had looted medical equipment from the polyclinic after taking the town. Human Rights Watch visited the facility on July 2 and saw vandalized rooms, broken windows and doors, and evidence of missing medical equipment, including an x-ray machine and possibly an electrocardiogram machine.
The hospital in al-Awaniya, inspected by Human Rights Watch on July 3, was in a similar condition, with missing equipment, broken windows, and damaged furniture.
A medic sympathetic to the rebels told Human Rights Watch that he had participated in the looting of the al-Awaniya hospital after rebels took the town:
[The al-Awaniya Hospital] was very well-equipped, and we basically took everything. It was well equipped for Gaddafi troops. [Rebels] said that Zintan would be the central hospital for the region.... I heard that the equipment from [the] Rayayinah [polyclinic] went to Zintan too.
Human Rights Watch visited the Zawiyat al-Bagul medical clinic on July 3. It had also been attacked and looted by vandals.
The removal of the medical equipment and damage to the facilities would hinder the return of the civilian population to those towns, Human Rights Watch said.
Residents of Rayayinah told Human Rights Watch that between 300 and 400 people stayed in the town when the rebels arrived, including in the western part, which government forces had used to shell rebel-held Zintan. One of the residents told Human Rights Watch that he saw the injuries of three people from the western part of town who claimed to have been beaten by rebels, and one person who said rebels had shot him in the foot:
Their wrists were tied with dusty wire and they had been beaten. I saw three cases but there are more than that. One lost two toes when a fighter from Zintan shot his foot. I saw a lot of bruises on the face, hands, everywhere. Most of them have left now.
Some of the damage in Rayayinah was also caused by government forces during their presence in the town. Mohamed el-Mizoughi, a local resident, told Human Rights Watch that government soldiers had punished rebel supporters by arresting them, burning down their houses, and looting their stores.
The rebel commander, Colonel Firnana, explained the rebel violations as a consequence of the victims' alleged support for government forces. "People who stayed in the towns were working with the army," he said. "Houses that were robbed and broken into were ones that the army had used, including for ammunition storage." He continued, "Those people who were beaten were working for Gaddafi's brigades."
It was dangerous for residents of the four captured towns to return because of anger in the rebel-held towns that government forces had attacked, Colonel Firnana said.
"Opposition forces have an obligation to protect civilians and their property in the areas they control so people feel they can return home safely and rebuild their lives," Stork said.
Two other towns in rebel-held territory in the Nafusa Mountains, el-Harabah and Tamzin, are known to include Gaddafi supporters, but they have managed to maintain relations with both the Libyan government and the rebels. These towns have not been used by government forces since the February uprising began.
Opposition fighters in the Nafusa Mountains have detained roughly 200 government fighters over the past month. Human Rights Watch had unrestricted access to detention facilities in Zintan, Yafran, and Kikla. Some detainees complained of physical abuse at the time of capture, but said that conditions since then had been adequate.
Human Rights Watch has documented repeated indiscriminate attacks by government forces on civilian areas in the Nafusa Mountains over the past two months, as well as the use of landmines. In the town of Yafran, government forces unlawfully occupied a hospital for six weeks.
"Opposition forces say they are committed to human rights, but the looting, arson, and abuse of civilians in captured towns are worrying," Stork said. "This raises concerns about how civilians will be treated if rebels capture other towns where the government has support."
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Jul 13, 2011 09:00
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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CJ Chivers has posted another article from Nafusa, which expands on the HRW report:
quote:Libyan Rebels Accused of Pillage and Beatings
Rebels in the mountains in Libya’s west have looted and damaged four towns seized since last month from the forces of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, part of a series of abuses and apparent reprisals against suspected loyalists that have chased residents of these towns away, Human Rights Watch said Tuesday.
The looting included many businesses and at least two medical centers that, like the towns, are now deserted and bare.
Rebel fighters also beat people suspected of being loyalists and burned their homes, the organization said.
The towns that have suffered the abuses are Qawalish, which rebels seized last week, Awaniya, Rayaniyah and Zawiyat al-Bagul, which fell to the rebels last month. Some of the abuses, Human Rights Watch said, were directed against members of the Mashaashia tribe, which has long supported Colonel Qaddafi.
The organization’s findings come as support for the war has waned in Europe and in Washington, where Republicans and Democrats alike have questioned American participation on budgetary and legal grounds.
They also raise the prospect that the NATO-backed rebel advances, which have stalled or slowed to a crawl, risk being accompanied by further retaliatory crimes that could inflame tribal or factional grievances, endangering the civilians that NATO was mandated to protect.
Rebel officials in the mountains have played down the looting and arson in recent days. In an interview on Sunday, Col. Mukhtar Farnana, the region’s senior commander, said that reprisals were not sanctioned and that he did not know any details about them.
But Human Rights Watch said the same commander shared details with its investigators and conceded that rebels had abused people suspected of being collaborators as towns changed hands.
“People who stayed in the towns were working with the army,” the organization quoted him as saying. “Houses that were robbed and broken into were ones that the army had used, including for ammunition storage.” The commander added, “Those people who were beaten were working for Qaddafi’s brigades.”
He also said that his forces were under orders not to loot, and that if it were not for those orders “people would have burned these towns down to the ground.”
A rebel near Qawalish on Tuesday confirmed Colonel Farnana’s view, saying that the rebels had instructions not to “break anything or burn houses,” but that orders ran up against the realities of waging war with a nonprofessional, quasi-military force.
“Before we liberate an area, we do have intelligence information about the people who were helping the army in the local town,” said the rebel, Hatam Idris. “So we do know these people, and their homes. And when we liberate a town, we go straightaway to those homes.”
The houses often have ammunition or weapons in them, he said, and often are ransacked and burned. “Some people do this individually,” he said.
He described steps that might protect the homes as impractical, given the rebel army’s structure and limited manpower. “We can’t just keep guarding and looking after these homes,” he said.
Colonel Farnana said that some rebels had been arrested and punished for these crimes. His claim could not immediately be confirmed.
Rebel conduct in the war has been mixed. Many captured pro-Qaddafi soldiers have received medical treatment in rebel hospitals and have been kept in detention centers that nongovernment organizations have been allowed to visit.
But Colonel Qaddafi’s soldiers have also been beaten at the point of capture, and some have been shot, including several prisoners in the besieged city of Misurata who were shot through the feet, either as a punishment or as a means to prevent escape.
Rebels have also been seen by journalists repeatedly firing makeshift rocket launchers indiscriminately into territory or towns held by the Qaddafi forces.
Such rebels actions, however, have paled next to the abuses of Colonel Qaddafi’s forces, which have fired on unarmed demonstrators and used artillery, rocket batteries and mortars against many rebel-held cities and towns.
Phones taken from dead or wounded soldiers have yielded images that strongly suggested that some of Colonel Qaddafi’s units have executed detainees.
The colonel’s forces have also ransacked and looted homes and businesses on many fronts throughout the war.
Rebels repeatedly cited the army’s abuses when discussing the ransacking of the recently looted towns.
Some of the results of rebel advances were visible in the past week in three abandoned villages that rebels call liberated. In two of them — Qawalish and Awaniya — shops had been looted. All of the residents were gone.
Hours before Human Rights Watch released its findings, and urged rebel authorities to respect and protect civilians and their property, another grim scene emerged between the villages of Um al-Jersan and Qawalish.
In a deep concrete basin related to the region’s water pipeline, at least five bodies were found rotting in a heap. Three cloth bindings were on the ground near them, as if some of them had had their arms or legs bound.
The dead men appeared to be wearing green military uniforms, and to have been killed and hidden some time ago. Several pistol and rifle cartridges littered the ground nearby, and local residents pointed to a mound of rocks and freshly turned dirt and said another rotting body was buried there.
It was not clear if the men had been killed by Colonel Qaddafi’s forces, by rebels or someone else. Nor was it clear why they had been hidden from view.
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Jul 13, 2011 10:03
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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The Syrians are getting in on the new Egyptian craze:
quote:Residents said bomb explosions damaged two minor gas pipelines in eastern Syria, in what they said was the first attack on oil infrastructure since the start of the uprising, Reuters reports.
quote: The overnight explosions occurred in a heavily guarded area in al-Tayana and Busaira regions east of the provincial capital of Deir Ezzor near the border with Iraq's Sunni heartland, said the sources in the tribal province, which has been witnessing large demonstrations denouncing Assad's autocratic rule.
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Jul 13, 2011 10:19
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Live Blogs July 13th
AJE Libya
AJE Egypt
AJE Yemen
AJE Syria
Guardian
Feb17.info
LibyaFeb17
NATO report
quote:Sorties conducted 12 JULY: 127
Strike sorties conducted 12 JULY: 35
Key Hits 12 JULY:
In the vicinity of Brega: 1 Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Misrata: 2 Multiple Rocket Launchers, 1 Armed Vehicle.
In the vicinity of Sirt: 1 Armoured Personnel Carrier.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 1 Radar, 5 Surface-to-Air-Missile Launchers.
Tripoli
quote:Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is facing dramatic shortages of fuel for his soldiers and citizens in Tripoli, and he is running out of cash to pay his forces and what is left of his government, according to the latest U.S. intelligence reports. In France, the foreign minister reported that Gadhafi is prepared to leave power.
Rebel forces that captured towns from Nalut to Kikla in Libya’s western Nafusa mountains cut a key crude oil pipeline that feeds one of the regime’s major refineries in the town of al-Zawiya, U.S. officials told The Associated Press. They cited U.S. intelligence estimates that fuel shortages could occur within as little as a month.
The cash shortage follows Turkey’s move last week to seize hundreds of millions of dollars held in the Arab Turkish Bank, the U.S. officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss matters of intelligence.
While the Libyan strongman could not access actual cash, he had been issuing letters of credit to pay his debtors, including fuel importers, the U.S. officials said. Read full story here.
Nafusa
Libyan rebels make gains against Gaddafi forces in western mountains
Egypt
quote:Egypt's elections could be delayed - a key demand of many opposition activists, Reuters reports.
quote: Parliamentary election may not be held until November, about two months later than originally planned, an army source said on Wednesday.
But the source said the registration of candidates would start in September, which he said meant the army was sticking to its commitment to start the handover of power to civilians then.
"Procedures for a parliamentary election will begin in September, possibly the middle of the month. That will involve registration of candidates," the army source told Reuters.
"Then there will be a campaigning period, after which an election will be held," he said. This could take the voting till after September, possibly November."
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Jul 13, 2011 10:33
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- Jut
- May 16, 2005
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by Ralp
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I only see retaliatory attacks by the rebels getting worse as they push into areas with more CQ support. This doesn't bode well for the future:(
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Jul 13, 2011 11:34
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Tripoli updates from the FGM rebels in Tripoli:
quote:The following is an update of the latest events in Tripoli by the Free Generation Movement:
1
Two female katiba soldiers injured by two male katiba soldiers in an episode of infighting in Gergarish district. Reason is as yet unverifiable by FGMovement.
2
A vast increase in check points on outskirts of soug al jomaa, fashloum, araada, dahmani, ben ashour, furnag, ein zara. Check points heavily armed.
3
Checkpoint soldiers between Tripoli and Zawiyah excitedly announcing to all drivers that “France has withdrawn from combat”. Todays majority vote in French parliament favouring continued support for Libyan civilians likely a huge morale blow to very same soldiers and remainder of security..
4
Mini exodus from Tripoli as families leave the capital leaving behind the shabab (youth) in anticipation of a new phase. Many youth who are discovering themselves on wanted lists are also escaping the capital.
5
FGMovement confirms continued defections from internal and external security in Tripoli. Now defectors are not abandoning posts in an effort to serve the uprising now and at zero hour.
6
Whilst FGMovement confirmed the vast decrease in regime capacity to monitor phone calls, we still call for extreme vigilance when using mobile networks in regime controlled areas. We have today received verified reports of phone calls being recorded and transcripts being leaked.
7
Rumours of 16 youth in tripoli being arrested have reached us. We cannot verify the reliability or accuracy of this rumour. We confirm that none of the members of FGMovement have been arrested and are safe, well and busy. We wish those who have been kidnapped by the regime protection from Allah.
The Free Generation Movement truly finds inspiring and heart warming all the messages of support and those messages asking us to be careful. We would like to clarify:
We take great pride in the strength of our security here in Tripoli.
Over the last 5 months our security has evolved and developed whereas the regime security has become more weak and fragmented, day by day.
We have no intention of stopping our work for this uprising nor do we intend on leaving Tripoli. The movement will continue to be based in the Capital and will continue to defy the regime until our objective is met.
We are ALL the Free Generation Movement.
quote:Britain’s defense minister said on Wednesday that some European NATO members are not pulling their weight in the Libyan air campaign. Defense Secretary Liam Fox said Britain’s military was being stretched by the near four-month-old United Nations mandated Libya campaign and that he would seek to shift more of the strain to others in the 28-member NATO alliance.
“The United States is willing to spend on defence, Britain is willing to spend on defence and deploy. Far too (many) of our European partners inside NATO are still trying to get a free ride, and they should regard Libya as a wake up call,” Fox said, labelling some NATO members’ contributions “pathetic”.
quote:Clashes broke out on Wednesday on the frontline south of Libya’s capital after advancing rebel fighters came under an ambush from troops loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, rebels said.
Rebel fighters seized control of the village of Al-Qawalish last week, and are planning to push on east to the town of Garyan, which controls access to the main highway leading north into the capital Tripoli, less than 100 km (60 miles) away.
One rebel fighter said the fighting started after a rebel unit tried to advance from Al-Qawalish. “We were moving forward and suddenly we were ambushed,” said the fighter.
A Reuters team in the village heard small arms fire and shelling and could hear explosions from shells landing inside Al-Qawalish on its eastern edge.
Several truckloads of rebel fighters sped west out of the village, with one shouting: “Go, go, it is not safe here!”
Outside the village another rebel fighter said: “There was fighting and we are waiting for support.”
quote:According to new U.S. intelligence reports, three key indicators suggest the weakening of the Gaddafi regime: dwindling fuel supplies, a cash crisis and reports of low morale among regime troops. The U.S. assessment comes as French authorities describe overtures from Libyan emissaries reportedly seeking sanctuary for the Libyan leader, who has survived sustained bombing by NATO war planes and U.S. armed drones since mid-March
quote:Libya’s rebels say they are poised to launch an imminent attack on the strategic garrison town of Gharyan, near Tripoli, whose fall could turn the tide in their campaign against Col. Moammar Gadhafi. This heavily fortified town whose capture would bring the rebels within 80 kilometres of the capital could potentially hand the opposition control of the main southern road leading from Tripoli.
There's various rumours shooting around about the above attack, some say they attacked, got pushed back and lost the town they had previously captured, others says they defeated a Gaddafi flanking attack and captured a number of Gaddafi troops.
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Jul 13, 2011 13:40
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Couple of small updates, Egypt Minister of Interior has annouced the largest reshuffling in the history of the police, including the exclusion of 505 police lieutenants.
In Libya it appears there's a lot of fighting going on in the east of Nafusa, lot's of rumours at the moment, but it seems Gaddafi's forces recaptured Qawalish, and now there's lots of back and forth fighting, seems like a major offensive by Gaddafi's forces. Lot's of contradictory information is coming through at the moment, sounds like the rebels are planning a counter attack at the moment. There's a number of journalists in the area, so hopefully an accurate report will appear soon.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:02
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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More of Qawalish, seems the rebels lost Qawalish and Ganima, but managed to recapture Ganima. Apparently a number of rebels were captured by Gaddafi forces, and the rebels are going to try and get them back.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:21
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- Ham
- Apr 30, 2009
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You're BALD!
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Brown Moses posted:
Couple of small updates, Egypt Minister of Interior has annouced the largest reshuffling in the history of the police, including the exclusion of 505 police lieutenants generals.
Four thousand officers in total.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:16
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- El Anansi
- Jan 27, 2008
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Brown Moses posted:
Tripoli updates from the FGM rebels in Tripoli:
Good lord that's an unfortunate abbreviation.
I know Ham's been more involved and posted a bit about the current round of the Tahrir sit-in, but for completeness's sake, I thought I'd mention a few of my observations. I just came through the square a while ago and it's still got a few thousand folks in it, although there's definitely been some ebb and flow to that--yesterday was outrageous busy. This time around it's taken on even more of a state-fair feel at times: they put up big white tents on the western side, there's music and speeches on different impromptu stages, kids getting their faces painted, and at one point I'm pretty sure they had some sort of game going where children were throwing stuff at a giant sheet with regime officials' faces on it hanging from a lightpost for prizes. It bears mention that all the protest security is being dealt with by the protestors themselves (as has been the case since February), who maintain checkpoints on all corners of the protest area and are remarkably thorough about checking ID and bags/clothing.
Regarding the speculation about the dialogue right now among the SCAF folks, I do think it's important to note that it's not as if they haven't changed anything, as some of the foreign policy shifts and the radical changes to the police presence would have been unthinkable before all this. Additionally, they basically told the IMF to gently caress off the other week, which represents a major departure from Mubarak/Sadat-era economic policy. Of course, at the risk of sounding Friedmanesque, this is absolutely a marathon rather than a sprint and any meaningful success in political change is going to be a function of keeping the pressure on going forward, which is exactly what the sit-in is about.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:37
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- Burt Sexual
- Jan 26, 2006
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by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
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Switchblade Switcharoo
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So it's pretty clear there is a large potential of a humanitarian crisis in Tripoli when they run out of fuel/food/etc. What will be the UN's reaction? Give Tripoli food? Let them go hungry? Quite a paradox - let people rise up more when they have empty stomachs (but are starving) or prop up the regime longer.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:45
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- Slantedfloors
- Apr 29, 2008
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Wait, What?
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El Anansi posted:
Good lord that's an unfortunate abbreviation.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:45
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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They are Nafusa rebels, although there's reports that some Nafusa rebels have met with rebels from other cities further north. Fighting is still going on in the area,
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Jul 13, 2011 17:23
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- J33uk
- Oct 24, 2005
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Slantedfloors posted:
I'm glad someone else caught that. I skimmed the paragraph and prepared for the worst before finding out what it stood for.
Yeah seriously, that had me horrified for a moment.
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Jul 13, 2011 18:52
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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If you want updates on the situation in Nafusa I recommend @baysontheroad, the current AJE reported in the area. Seems like the rebels didn't have any heavy vehicles to defend themselves, and ran out of ammo. They apparently are gathering a large counterattack force, including heavy vehicles.
[edit]Another good one to follow is @cjchivers, he's just reported the following:
quote:Battle 4 Qawalish tday. Qad forces counterattacked late a.m., retook town. Rebs massed and by evening had most of Qawalish back. More on NYT Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jul 13, 2011
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Jul 13, 2011 19:00
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- Pistol_Pete
- Sep 15, 2007
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Oven Wrangler
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Another couple of articles indicating that various governments are starting to lean towards a ceasefire and the setting up of talks between the loyalists and rebels:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8635613/Libya-campaign-duration-cannot-be-predicted-Liam-Fox-warns.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/12/gaddafi-regime-transition-power-rebels
Not sure how Cameron'll spin this as a 'Victory', after he's demanded so loudly that Gadaffi must be removed from power, but I suppose that he's got bigger problems on his mind right now!
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Jul 13, 2011 22:32
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- Lascivious Sloth
- Apr 26, 2008
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by sebmojo
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quote:Libya's prosecutor general Mohammed Zikri al-Mahjoubi files charges against the secretary general of NATO Anders Fogh Rasmussen of war crimes against Libyans before a Libyan court in Tripoli July 13
quote:US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Wednesday that Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's "days are numbered" after signs of advances on the field by rebels.
Clinton, at a joint news conference with Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, pledged to work with Moscow which abstained from a UN resolution that opened the way for military intervention but has since offered mediation.
quote:The head of the Libyan executive office for the National Transitional Council, Mahmoud Jibril, has denied that there was any comprehensive political initiative on the table for resolving the conflict in Libya according to an Al Jazeera Arabic report.
Jibril was speaking at a press conference held in Brussels after concluding talks he had held with NATO officials. The meeting reviewed questions related to statements made by French prime minister François Fillon in which he said signs of a political solution in Libya were beginning to emerge.
quote:Russia turned down an invitation to join upcoming Libya discussions as part of the contact group of major powers and insisted that all decisions on the conflict be made by the UN.
Turkey had earlier invited China along with Russia to attend a meeting scheduled for Friday in Istanbul.
But the Russian foreign ministry said Moscow had received other such offers and had always turned them down in the past.
We are not a part of this group and do not take part in its activities. And the same holds true for the upcoming meeting in Istanbul - Russian foreign ministry
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Jul 13, 2011 23:49
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- Patter Song
- Mar 26, 2010
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Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.
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Fun Shoe
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Between the attacks on the American/French Embassies, the blood in the streets, the ignoring of condemnations by even friends like Turkey, is Syria's Assad regime going to survive only to find itself even more of a pariah? Driven even more completely into the arms of Iran, sanctions, need for a rabid military structure to keep even the vaguest hint of insurrection down?
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Jul 14, 2011 01:07
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- Lascivious Sloth
- Apr 26, 2008
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by sebmojo
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It really comes down to three factors, I believe. One is the reaction of the people and if they can/will sustain revolt and make progress. The second is the reaction of the global community and if they up the pressure or maintain their current stance or even lose interest. Last of all is how the regime reacts to the global community and protesters in the future, whether with force, diplomacy or concessions. One thing for certain is that the political environment of the Middle East and North Africa will never again reflect its image from one year ago.
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Jul 14, 2011 01:31
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Live Blogs July 14th
AJE Libya
AJE Egypt
AJE Yemen
AJE Syria
Feb17.info
Guardian
NATO Report
quote:Sorties conducted 13 JULY: 130
Strike sorties conducted 13 JULY: 50
Key Hits 13 JULY:
In the vicinity of Brega: 1 Command and Control Node, 1 Tank, 4 Armed Vehicles.
In the vicinity of Misrata: 2 Command and Control Centers, 1 Armoured Fighting Vehicle, 1 Anti-Aircraft Gun, 1 Artillery Piece, 1 Armed Vehicle.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 6 Surface-to-Air-Missile Launchers.
In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Waha: 1 Command and Control Center
Big focus on attacks in Brega and Misrata, where I've not actually heard much from in the past few days, apart from the usual Twitter "rebels are awesome" stuff, which means nothing.
Judging by the amount they've bombed the military storage facility in Waddan they must either be doing it for a bet, or it's huge. It's been going on virtually non-stop for 2 weeks, and there's even an RAF report from the start of June on the bombing of military storage facilities in Waddan.[/url]
Brega
Nafusa
Video report from a BBC reporter with the rebels during the Wednesday morning attack by Gaddafi forces on Al-Qawalish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULbAZMagq8Y
Another BBC reported in Nafusa during the attack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjewin-ee7s
A CNN reporter also caught up in the Nafusa fighting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGVoYovmJE
quote:Rebel fighters said they had retaken the village of Al-Qawalish in western Libya from forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi on Wednesday.
The village fell to pro-Gaddafi forces earlier on Wednesday, but the rebels said they had staged a successful counter-attack to seize it back, rebel spokesman Abdurahman Alzintani told Reuters.
The village lies about 100 km (60 miles) south of Tripoli and is key to rebel plans to advance on Gaddafi’s stronghold in the capital.
After yesterdays confusion my understanding of the fighting in Nafusa yesterday is that the Gaddafi forces over ran a poorly defended Al Qawalish, then the rebels gathered a very large number of fighters and heavy weapons and counterattacked, recapturing Al Qawalish, and possibly even moving further forward then they were before.
@wheelertweets has spent several days in Nafusa with the wounded, reporting on their injuries and the quality of medical care they are receiving, it makes for a pretty grim, but interesting read.
quote:A senior minister in the Libyan rebel Transitional National Council opened an airfield on Tuesday linking the rebel capital Benghazi with a remote Western Mountain stronghold south of Tripoli, and promised a military breakthrough within days.
Ali Tarhouni, oil and finance minister in the council opposing Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, arrived and departed by air at the Rhebat air strip, a stretch of mountain highway, where a giant yellow arrow painted on the tarmac marks out the runway, next to a blue and white shack flying the rebel flag.
He told Reuters he was bringing aid to the mountains, a region where the rebels have made significant military gains in the last few weeks against Gaddafi’s forces and are preparing for another major advance.
“I am hoping you will hear very good news in the next 24-48 hours on all fronts, economic, military, all fronts.” Read full story here.
Dipolomacy
quote:Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi has a “suicidal plan” to blow up the capital Tripoli if it is taken by rebels, the Kremlin’s special envoy to Libya told a Russian newspaper Thursday.
“The Libyan premier told me: if the rebels seize the city, we will cover it with missiles and blow it up,” Kremlin envoy Mikhail Margelov said in an interview with the Izvestia daily.
Margelov met Libyan Prime Minister Baghdadi al-Mahmudi last month.
“I imagine that the Kadhafi regime does have such a suicidal plan,” he added, saying that Kadhafi still had plentiful supplies of missiles and ammunition.
But Margelov, who has had rare access to senior Libyan officials, questioned reports that Kadhafi could be running out of arms in the drawn-out conflict.
Kadhafi had still not used a single surface-to-surface missile, he argued.
“Tripoli theoretically could lack ammunition for tanks, cartridges for rifles. But the colonel has got plenty of missiles and explosives.” Read full story here.
quote:President Barack Obama told Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Wednesday he supports Moscow’s efforts to mediate a political solution in Libya and is ready to support talks toward a democratic transition as long as Muammar Gaddafi steps aside, the White House said.
Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney, said in a statement that the president made clear his position on the matter in a White House meeting with Lavrov.
quote:A European Union executive offered Libyan rebels help with democratic reforms on Wednesday once their war with Muammar Gaddafi’s government was over and said their Benghazi-based council was gaining credibility.
Speaking after meeting a rebel representative, Mahmoud Jebril, in Brussels, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said the EU was ready to assist with organising elections and setting up state institutions in Libya.
“I think this visit is a sign of the growing authority and credibility of the Transitional National Council (TNC) on the international scene,” Barroso told reporters.
“It is also a sign of the EU’s engagement in supporting the TNC as a key political interlocutor.” Read full story here.
quote:The campaign was originally mandated for 90 days but it is now approaching four months with little sign of Col Muammar Gaddafi’s regime collapsing.
Although the Nato mission has been extended to continue until September the Defence Secretary suggested there was no guarantee that the Libyan government would have been toppled by then.
“We can, and have, planned for operations such as those we are undertaking but no one can predict how long a complex intervention will take,” Dr Fox told an assembly of top ranking RAF officers during an Air Power conference at the Royal United Services Institute. Read full storyhere.
quote:Clinton departs Washington on Thursday for Turkey, where she will attend a meeting in Istanbul of senior officials from the more than 40 nations supporting NATO’s operation to protect Libyan civilians.
The fourth meeting of foreign ministers from the so-called Contact Group on Libya will be looking not only at stepping up pressure on Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to leave power, but also boosting support to the cash-starved opposition Transitional National Council. Read full story here.
I'm also still seeing reports of fighting between rebels and Gadaffi forces in Tarhuna, which as this map shows is in a pretty strategic location, especially if Ghayran is captured. The rumour was that special forces that had arrived from Benghazi in Misrata has managed to reach there, and were supporting the local rebels fighting Gaddafi forces. Last I saw they had captured several key locations, but of course, none of this can be verified.
Egypt
quote:• Egypt's first democratic parliamentary elections look set to be postponed until November, amid a growing standoff between the ruling military council and protesters, Jack Shenker in Cairo reports.
quote:The military's policy shift came as a public occupation of Cairo's Tahrir Square entered its sixth day and other protests continued to erupt across the country. On Wednesday, the Mogamma building, Egypt's administrative nerve centre, finally reopened after having been shut for days due to the ongoing sit-in. However roads around Tahrir are still closed off and under the control of protesters, while security forces remain nowhere to be seen.
• The Arabist blog has a useful "cheat sheet" on the concessions so far promised including the sacking of 600 police officer, the delay in the elections, a cabinet reshuffle, and the appointed of judges to try former regime officials in televised court proceedings. He points out that the concessions only addresses some of the protesters concerns, but it certainly shows that protests are still paying off".
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Jul 14, 2011 09:50
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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CJ Chivers has a good article on what happened yesterday:
quote:Rebels Briefly Lose Control of Western Libyan Town
Military forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi counterattacked and briefly recaptured this front-line town from opposition forces on Wednesday, but they were beaten back by a large rebel force late in the day.
Though the battle was fluid and its outcome perhaps not final, by evening the fighting appeared to be confined to exchanges of rocket and mortar fire from a mile away or more and some skirmishing beyond the town’s eastern edge. Armed rebels roamed the abandoned town once again — but only after suffering many casualties.
The hospital in Zintan, where the rebels’ regional military command is located, said that it had treated 27 men and received eight dead fighters by nightfall, and that other wounded fighters might have been taken to one or two other hospitals in the region.
The renewed battle for Qawalish, set on a high plateau in mountainous western Libya, underscored the sense of slow progress or stalemate that has settled over what has become a midsummer desert war.
After seizing and looting Qawalish last week, the rebels maintained only a small force in the town. Their checkpoints and positions were barely dug in; their equipment was minimal, and it often appeared that few people were alert to the dangers from the Qaddafi forces just down the road.
When those forces struck back, late in the morning on Wednesday, they routed the rebels’ holding force.
Rebel radios throughout the region crackled with traffic saying that several of their fighters and perhaps two of their trucks had been captured. The Qaddafi forces, meanwhile, proceeded a few miles farther west down the road into rebel territory, moving all but unchecked.
Several towns back, however, the rebels were mobilizing. Their forces swarmed the road in the midafternoon, driving toward the fighting in pickup trucks and cars. Some men hitchhiked with rifles to get to the new front lines, where the rebels’ makeshift ground-to-ground rocket launchers had settled into a duel with the Qaddafi forces. Truckloads of men with rifles and machine guns pressed forward.
One group of men jogged off the highway and up a hill just outside of town as rockets and mortar rounds exploded intermittently in the fields and hills nearby. “Welcome to my free country,” one of the men said. He gave the name Isam, but he shielded his face and asked that his last name not be published because he feared reprisals against his family in Tripoli, the capital.
The group stayed on the hill briefly but backed off as incoming rockets struck the side facing Qawalish. They were a few dozen in number, and as the rockets exploded and the men ducked to the ground, they shouted “God is Great!” repeatedly to steel one another’s nerves.
Some of the men, including one who gave the name Yusef, had no weapons. “I am from Tripoli,” he said a few minutes later, crouching as rockets flew overhead from behind the rebel lines, returning fire into Qawalish.
“I left my wife and children there to come here and fight,” Yusef added. “It is dangerous, because I have no gun. But I can help — I can bring food, I can bring water. And maybe I will find a rifle today from one of Qaddafi’s soldiers.”
A short while later, the group climbed down the hill, returned to the trucks and drove into Qawalish, where the Qaddafi forces were pulling back as rebel strength grew. The town was back, at least for the moment, in rebel hands.
The losses to the Qaddafi soldiers were impossible to determine, as was the rationale for the counterattack.
Though the attacking loyalists had entered the town with enough troops to scatter the few rebels there, they were not bolstered with enough forces to hold what they had won.
Many more men were wounded. Several were dead. And the lines at the end of the day were almost exactly where they had been at dawn.
[edit]My life is complete
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jul 14, 2011
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Jul 14, 2011 10:13
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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"Dear Editor--I am eight years old.
Some of my little friends say there is no Brown Moses, he's CIA.
Papa says, 'If you see it in The Guardian, it's so.'
Please tell me the truth, is there a Brown Moses?"
Congrats on your most worthwhile accomplishment to date.
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Jul 14, 2011 10:43
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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My CIA bonus is going to be huge this month.
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Jul 14, 2011 10:46
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- AllanGordon
- Jan 26, 2010
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by Shine
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Brown Moses posted:
My life is complete
That's pretty cool. I always thought it was kind of funny that people were getting paid to do a worse job than you at making a good overview of all the poo poo that's been happening in the middle east.
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Jul 14, 2011 10:59
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Brega
quote:Libya rebels poised for Brega attack
Libya's rebels are set to launch an offensive on the oil town of Brega in the coming hours, hoping to dislodge long-dug-in loyalist troops, rebel military sources told AFP on Thursday.
The attack could come later on Thursday or early on Friday after rebels had set their positions, according to the sources, who asked not to be named.
"We are preparing to enter Brega. The attack will come soon" said one rebel official, adding that the offensive had been slated for Wednesday night but was delayed.
"We will move in the coming hours and we shall soon be in Brega, God willing," said another official.
Brega, nestled at the southeastern tip of the Gulf of Sirte, has changed hands multiple times during Libya's civil war, which soon enters its fifth month.
The town's vast oil refinery and storage facilities are just one reason for its strategic value.
Beyond the city are hundreds of kilometres (miles) of largely open desert before Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi's home town of Sirte -- which lies just 360 kilometres (225 miles) from Tripoli and about 200 kilometres (125 miles) from the besieged rebel enclave of Misrata.
But while fighting has raged in the west in the Nafusa Mountains and around Misrata, there has been relative calm on the eastern front except for skirmishes and rockets occasionally slamming into civilian areas of Ajdabiya.
"We have been focused on the west of the country, but now we will move," said a third rebel military source who also asked not to be named.
There are thought to be only a handful of civilians left in Brega and on its outskirts, but it is home to between 2,000 and 3,000 troops loyal to Kadhafi.
Rebels in recent weeks have been holed up at a forward position 40 kilometres between Brega and Ajdabiya, inching forward and clearing mines so their handful of T-72 tanks and infantry fighting vehicles can have a freer rein.
Meanwhile NATO has been hitting whatever heavy pieces Kadhafi's troops have out in the open.
In rebel-held Ajdabiya on Wednesday there was some evidence of a military buildup, with heavier traffic heading toward the front than in recent weeks and guards furtively checking papers.
Most of the weapons being carried to the front were the familiar array of "technicals" -- pickup trucks fixed with anti-aircraft guns, machine guns and rocket launchers.
Meanwhile in the past 24 hours, NATO said it hit six targets in Brega: one command and control node, one tank and four armed vehicles.
Journalists have rarely been allowed to pass the checkpoint at the western gate of Ajdabiya in recent months as rumours of an imminent offensive have swirled.
Nafusa
quote:Libyan rebels pulled most of their fighters back from an assault on a gateway to Tripoli on Thursday to regroup, as Muammar Gaddafi's regime accused NATO of killing more than 1,100 civilians.
And as the insurgent campaign on the capital from mountains to the southwest continues apace, Russia's special envoy to Libya was quoted as saying he believes Gaddafi has a "suicide plan" to blow up Tripoli if it falls.
"Yesterday, we got to within six kilometres of Asabah, but most of our forces have returned" to Gualish, where rebels repulsed a bid by Gaddafi forces on Wednesday to recapture the desert hamlet, said local commander Abdel Majid Salem.
Asabah is strategically located 80 km south of the capital, serving as the last barrier between the rebels and the garrison town of Gharyan.
quote:The Libyan rebels are reinforcing the Qawalish in Libya's Nufusa mountains, al-Jazeera reports.
quote:Scores of fighters manned defensive positions throughout Qawalish on Thursday, supported by trucks with heavy machine guns mounted on the back.
That was in contrast to the light defences in place on Wednesday morning when forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi quickly overran the village.
"We came yesterday and we stayed here and we said we are not moving until the place is secure," said one rebel fighter who was manning a machine gun and gave his name as Tommy. "This mistake is not going to happen again. We're not going home."
Control of Qawalish is strategically important because it allows the rebels to come down from their mountain stronghold and move towards the town of Garyan, which controls access to the main highway leading north to Tripoli.
quote:China said on Thursday that it would skip a meeting in Turkey this week between Western powers, Arab governments and leaders of Libya’s opposition National Transitional Council, saying that the way the group worked needed “further study”
Istanbul is set to host the contact group meeting on July 15 as part of an international effort to bring stability to a post-Gaddafi Libya.
“China has already received the relevant invitation,” Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei told a regular news briefing.
“But because the function and method of operation of this contact group need further study, China will not be attending this meeting,” he added, without elaborating.
quote:Turkey says it will propose a “road map” to help end the Libyan crisis when nations backing NATO’s military mission gather in Istanbul.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and some 40 other members of the so-called Contact Group on Libya will hold their fourth meeting on Friday to support a post-Gadhafi era, boost support to the Libyan main opposition group and plot steps for a political transition.
A Turkish Foreign Ministry official said Thursday participants will take up a plan outlining options to end the Libyan crisis and set the stage for a democratic transition in “line with the just expectations of the Libyan people.”
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity in line with ministry rules, would not provide further details.
quote: US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton insisted on the eve of the talks that Gaddafi’s days were numbered, with the colonel hanging on in Tripoli despite four months of NATO-led bombings backing up rebels battling his four-decade regime.
quote:The International Contact Group on Libya will ponder the chances of negotiating a political settlement to the conflict with representatives of the regime — excluding Gaddafi and his inner circle — and the rebels, officials said. The UN envoy for Libya, Abdul Ilah al-Khatib, will brief participants on his recent talks with both Tripoli and the rebels at their stronghold of Benghazi, a Turkish diplomat said.
“Ideas are maturing on how to launch a political track through the mediating role of the United Nations,” Italy’s foreign ministry spokesman Maurizio Massari said. ”The fundamental point is that Gaddafi is not part of this political process. A dialogue with members of the regime who are not Gaddafi’s family or officials on the sanctions list could be the basis for this process,” he said.
NATO and allies
quote: Britain is running short of military targets in Libya as the forces of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi are increasingly using civilian infrastructure and vehicles, a defence ministry source said on Thursday. ”We’ve had credible intelligence that Gaddafi is using civilian warehouses. He’s definitely changing his tactics,” said the source, who also echoed NATO claims that Gaddafi’s forces were using civilian vehicles to deter air strikes.
quote:US officials said cite intelligence estimates that fuel shortages could occur within as little as a month. Gaddafi is also facing a cash crisis after Turkey cut off his access, on July 4, to hundreds of millions in Libyan funds held in a Turkish-Libyan bank. While Gaddafi could not access actual cash, he had been issuing letters of credit to pay his debtors, including fuel importers.
Gaddafi
quote:Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi is ordering his withdrawing forces to destroy oil refineries and other strategic facilities as NATO nations suggest the end of his four-decade rule is nearing.
NATO commander Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard, speaking to reporters from his headquarters in Naples, Italy, said he had no information to back up reports of a Gadhafi “suicide plan” to raze the capital, Tripoli, before he is forced from power.
“I can report that the Gadhafi regime has given direction to its forces to destroy certain facilities as they withdraw, such as fuel refineries,” he said.
Libya’s oil reserves are the ninth largest in the world and a key export to southern Europe, providing much of the country’s wealth.
“This is a government, this is a leader that will not hesitate to kill his own population to achieve his personal goals. He has lost all legitimacy to lead his people,” Bouchard said.
The air force general wouldn’t give any more details or reveal how he has come about this information, but said the orders are in some cases being flouted by troops loyal to the regime who have been surrendering to rebel forces or abandoning their posts.
The word comes as NATO foreign ministers prepare to meet Friday in Istanbul to discuss a mission that is now in its fifth month. In the lead up to the gathering, France, which just this week voted to extend its participation in the bombing mission, suggested that a negotiated resolution to the conflict could be on the horizon. That is based on discussions with emissaries for the embattled Gadhafi.
The Associated Press also reports that host country Turkey will present other nations with a plan Friday to bring an end the hostilities, though no details were provided. Foreign Minister John Baird will be representing Canada at the meeting.
It’s not clear whether talk by western nations of a ceasefire and an end to the conflict are based on realism or optimism, and Gadhafi has proved time and again to be a fickle and an unpredictable foe.
But it is certain that the clock is ticking for NATO countries, some of whom have doubted the wisdom or efficacy of attempting to bomb the Libyan regime into submission. Most countries, including Canada, only have approval for the mission to continue through to the end of September. Their critics will only grow louder and their publics wary if a solution cannot be reached by that time.
The Conservative majority in Ottawa would have a free hand to further extend the mission into the fall, but Defence Minister Peter MacKay hinted at the already-heightened sensitivities in a conference call with reporters Thursday morning.
“You always hope that every conflict is going to end before a shot is fired. This conflict I think it’s fair to say has proven to be a very complex and involved affair,” he said.
MacKay said that, like in Afghanistan, there are tribal ties and rivalries to be factored into the calculations.
After mentioning the decade-long Afghan conflict, which MacKay has handled as both defence and foreign minister, he quickly added: “There’s no suggestion that this conflict is going to nearly approach the length that we have encountered there.”
There is also the difficulty of relying on a land force almost entirely made up of untrained or poorly trained rebels. Several reports this week have also surfaced revealing the use of young children and underage teens either as fighters or workers in the rebel supply lines, raising questions about the factions with which NATO nations have allied themselves. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jul 14, 2011
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Jul 14, 2011 14:20
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- Adbot
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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Jun 8, 2024 22:42
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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@libyanproud has been freaking out for the past hour, trying to get various journalists in Nafusa to direct message him, James Bay just tweeted the reason why:
quote:Claims of atrocities committed by Gaddafi troops around Qwaleesh and road to Kikla. I am told there are photos. Haven't found them yet.
Claims of executions and one fighter beheaded with eyes gouged out. Cannot confirm independently.
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Jul 14, 2011 15:35
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Jul 12, 2011 16:50
