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Great thread, can't believe I didnt see this sooner. Texas '11 in the weekend program in Houston with less than 10 days left til I finish. If anybody has any questions lmk.
crazeazn fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jul 7, 2011 |
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Jul 7, 2011 19:06
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So I seriously F'd up my first two years of college and graduated with about a 2.4ish GPA (Economics/Psychology major). I have a pretty good job right now and 4+ years of working experience in non-profit finance, but I'd like to get a Masters to move up the career ladder more easily. I'm taking graduate level finance/accounting courses at Harvard extension school, which isn't a "real school", but I figure I'd build a separate transcript to show that I've cleaned my act up. I'm not looking at high end MBA schools at all, but assuming I get a good GMAS score, is business school still out of my league (like BU/Northeastern level)?
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Jul 10, 2011 16:16
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Ingraman posted:So I seriously F'd up my first two years of college and graduated with about a 2.4ish GPA (Economics/Psychology major). I have a pretty good job right now and 4+ years of working experience in non-profit finance, but I'd like to get a Masters to move up the career ladder more easily. I'm taking graduate level finance/accounting courses at Harvard extension school, which isn't a "real school", but I figure I'd build a separate transcript to show that I've cleaned my act up. I'm not looking at high end MBA schools at all, but assuming I get a good GMAS score, is business school still out of my league (like BU/Northeastern level)? How's your GPA for the last two years?
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Jul 10, 2011 18:08
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It was a bit higher than 3.0, but much of it was due to the Psyc. portion of my major.
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Jul 11, 2011 01:24
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Hey guys, I used to follow this thread a year or two ago and thought I would chime in with my own MBA experience. I went to a rather mediocre part-time M.B.A institution from 2007-2009 (Saint Joseph’s University in Philadelphia, PA) after working for a year. I was driven to pursue higher education because I wanted to make more than $30,000 with my hideous Political Science and History double major degree. I, of course, joined the M.B.A. program with grand delusions of high paying offers and a choice of fancy beemers quickly after graduation. Unfortunately, the economy tanked, and every one in my class was left fending for themselves. I went against the grain for the most part and chose not to participate in networking events nor do heavy on-campus interviews. Instead I focused purely on studying in an attempt to graduate with the highest GPA possible with the intent of landing a job based purely on that. Did it work out? Eh. I really had to work my rear end off at temp/contractor and intern IT Business related gigs here and there—all fortune 500s mind you. I made peanuts at those positions, but I knew that I needed experience somewhere to get my foot in the door. Do NOT be afraid to take low paying temp or contract positions if that's the best you can do. Expecting crazy monies for such positions at a young age is simply not realistic. A little over 2 years later I landed a 6 fig job within my realm of experience. Did my degree help me out at all? Kind of. Ironically, it helped at the contractor positions (heavy financial modeling and business cases/justifications), but not so much at my current full time managerial position. My point of this post is to hopefully boost the spirits of the folks not attending Top 20 schools. I went into my program not knowing what the hell I wanted to do. I only really figured it out after those temp positions. Perhaps I’m in the minority, but don’t fret too much! It’ll hopefully work out in the end.
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Jul 12, 2011 05:10
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I wanted to get some feedback from people in this thread who have experience with consulting and Top 20 MBA programs. My long-term goal is a mix of Consulting, Venture Capital, and potentially a start-up. To give some context, I was an engineering undergraduate with a 2.75 GPA and graduated in 2007. After graduating I went into sales strategy & management consulting for a boutique consulting firm where I worked for 3 years and was promoted (from Analyst to Associate Consultant, a pre-MBA position). In the fall I took my GMAT and scored 740 and applied in Round 2 to Stanford, UCLA, & USC. I got rejected without interviews from Stanford & UCLA and wait-listed at USC (after an interview). Since then I was promoted to Consultant (at my same company) which is typically an MBA-hire position, the company had some attrition and my pay got bumped to low six-figures + bonus, and I'm now interviewing with one of the Big 4 consulting companies for a Senior Consultant position (MBA-level) within the same consulting practice area that I'm in today. Today, I received an e-mail from USC asking me if I still wanted to be considered on their wait-list because they start orientation July 25th. So I'm unsure of what to do next. It seems like I have a few options: 1) Confirm wait-list status and potentially get in to USC. Pitfall is it's two years of opportunity cost, USC doesn't have great placement into consulting or VC, I'm already in consulting, and I already make more than their average MBA graduate. 2) Potentially get job at Big 4. It's a job that new MBA hires go into, will look good to have a brand name consulting company on my resume, they'll pay for an MBA down the line, probably another pay-increase. Risk is I wait too long (would wait a minimum of 1.5 years) to get an MBA (unless I do a part-time or executive program but those don't usually fit well into consulting lifestyle) and the opportunity cost increases and I don't graduate until I'm about 31. 3) Don't get offered job at Big 4, stay in current role, apply again in the fall, potentially to a wider set of schools. Challenge is that other than the promotion there's not much else that's changed or I can change on my application. GPA is fixed. GMAT can't go higher. Only real variables are applying earlier, applying to more / other schools, and writing better essays. Community service is minimal but I can draw on a project (that I didn't have before) that involves a company which helps place seniors in the right type of care and changing the company to better serve that market. Thoughts? I'm not in a bad position but I'm having a difficult time weighing the trade-offs and there's no one I can really talk to that isn't biased (my friends with any relevant knowledge work at either my current company or the competitor I'm interviewing at). I guess a 4th option is to just ask USC to include me on the wait-list, and then make a decision but I don't know if I'll have an answer from the Big 4 company by their deadline. And I might be taking a slot from someone who really wants to go. Mövenpick fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 06:23
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Mövenpick posted:I wanted to get some feedback from people in this thread who have experience with consulting and Top 20 MBA programs. My long-term goal is a mix of Consulting, Venture Capital, and potentially a start-up. I don't work on the consulting side but I'm applying to B-school. Couple questions - 1) There's a big gulf between Stanford (harder to get into than HBS) and UCLA/USC. Have you thought of other schools e.g. Columbia? For the US, there's the big 8 for MBA schools and the rest. I'd be very careful about spending 6-figures to do an MBA at a lower tier school especially these days where you can see the huge difference in campus recruiting. 2) Why do you want to do an MBA? It's still not clear to me why you're doing it beyond the usual "work 2 years and go back for an MBA" that every banker and consultant does. It's very tough these days to get into a top-10 school if you're a middle-of-the-pack consultant/banker unless you have something to distinguish you. 3) Big 4 as in Deloitte, E&Y etc. or Big 4 as in Bain, BCG etc? Big difference in the schools you should be aiming for.
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Jul 13, 2011 12:33
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Mövenpick posted:Things Mövenpick – I apologize: I have neither experience in consulting nor in any of the Top 20 MBA programs. I am, however, about to begin my own MBA studies and have therefore been in a similar state of mind for some time now. To me, it seems obvious that pursuing an MBA at this point in your career should be moved way down your list of priorities—especially at a school other than one of the absolute best in the world. Why exactly do you want to get an MBA? You are apparently uninterested in a career change, and it appears as if your career has met or surpassed the level of most freshly minted MBAs already. You mention that, at your current company, you presently hold a position typically reserved for MBA-hires with equivalent pay and benefits. What’s more, you’re being considered by a large “Big 4” consultancy for a position that would be an improvement. What this means to me is that you’re comfortably established in a career path you enjoy and have immediate potential for growth. I would say your situation is better than most recent MBA graduates already. Anything you could squeeze out of an MBA would unlikely be worth the opportunity cost. If I were you, I would do some deep thinking about why exactly you would benefit from taking yourself out of the workforce at this moment. The negatives you mention are insubstantial. If, a year or two down the line, you decide that an MBA would be advantageous, go for it. The worst case scenario is that you’ll be in the exact same mid-level, six-figure-salaried-with-benefits position that you have today. What’s more is that in this situation, with the additional experience, you would likely be more attractive to top ranked programs. On the other hand, the next six months could see you promoted to senior-level and making even more, with your eye perhaps on an EMBA for that next career jump.
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Jul 13, 2011 13:06
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Movenpick, I don't think your the first rejection-story-with-a-good-GMAT-score in this thread. Of course, A LOT of people are applying to go back to school now due to the economy.Mövenpick posted:they'll pay for an MBA down the line shrike82 posted:1) There's a big gulf between Stanford (harder to get into than HBS) and UCLA/USC. Have you thought of other schools e.g. Columbia? For the US, there's the big 8 for MBA schools and the rest. I'd be very careful about spending 6-figures to do an MBA at a lower tier school especially these days where you can see the huge difference in campus recruiting.
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Jul 13, 2011 14:05
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Small White Dragon posted:When I looked, it appeared that UCLA and USC had highly ranked MBA programs (although not as highly as Stanford). Is this wrong? "Highly ranked" is a pretty meaningless metric for MBA programs. Post-MBA career placement/salary is the single most important factor. There is a huge disparity as such between Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Kellog, Columbia, MIT (LBS and INSEAD for overseas) and all other MBA schools which you don't see reflected in Top 20/Top 50 lists. You'd be surprised at how good schools like NYU-Stern and Haas have suffered in terms of campus recruiting with the recession. You don't have that worry with the tier-1 schools.
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Jul 13, 2011 14:19
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Mövenpick posted:stuff Chances of getting into VC with just a consulting background are really slim, especially if you don't have the Stanford/HBS/Wharton MBA. If you really want to do tech stuff then I would probably lean towards going with the Big4 consulting then transitioning to either MBA/startup/F500 tech and see what happens from there. Or go switch to one of those 2 jobs now if you are sick of consulting. If you are already at a post-MBA consulting job level then I wouldn't take the MBA unless it's one of the top 8 or whatever. You probably should have applied to Haas too, especially if you are interested in tech.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:56
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Mövenpick posted:I wanted to get some feedback from people in this thread who have experience with consulting and Top 20 MBA programs. My long-term goal is a mix of Consulting, Venture Capital, and potentially a start-up. I'm a consultant, although I haven't been one for as long as you. To my understanding, an MBA will only help you if you want to switch companies, since you are already at a post-MBA position. Since you have the talent to gain interviews to lateral into the second tier Big Four-type consultancies (not an insult, that is where I am), you can essentially make that move without the help of an MBA, even if it isn't immediately. Also, keep in mind that Big Four may be a downgrade from where you are now, depending on what you want to do (hard to say without knowing where you work). If you would like to move to a top firm (MBB or the highly respected boutiques), you will want to make sure to go to a target school for their recruiting. I don't think the UCs are the best in that regard, although of course, they are still good schools. Essentially, for you, an MBA only offers value in a specific situation: if you get into a top program (Stanford, INSEAD, HBS, Wharton, Kellog, Booth, etc.), and then if you want to make a move to the highest tier of consulting companies. I personally plan to pursue business school as a means of reaching the specific area of consulting that I am looking for, which my current firm is not known for. Using it as a "reset" button, essentially. This will only be necessary if I am not able to make a lateral move on my own. If you want to chat, feel free to PM me. Edit: To throw in a question of my own, would this be the thread to post information and ask those of you who are already in business schools what my chances would be at getting in? 
Pissingintowind fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 16:21
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Mövenpick posted:... If you only had 3 years work experience it's easy to see why these schools were not interested. Also, USC will be a huge waste of money for you, don't go there. Option 2 sounds like the best choice by quite a wide margin.
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Jul 14, 2011 02:01
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Thanks for the input. The interview is at Deloitte, not McKinsey/Bain/BCG. I think I'll let USC go, focus on continuing to do well at either my current job or the next one, and then apply at a later time.
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Jul 14, 2011 03:39
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So I've been working in HR in the public sector for some time now. I've done a lot of training in areas like project management, performance evaluation, strategic compensation, all stuff that you'd think would translate well to the private sector. I also spent a year and a half strictly developing training media for new hires. Long story short: I'm really not confident I'll keep my job through the end of next year barring a miracle due to budget realities. Hell, I could be gone by August for all we know right now. I want to move over to the private sector. Would an MBA focused in HR be a good way to make me even that much more attractive, especially if my experience is all in the public sector? There's hella jobs with private tech contractors around here.
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Jul 14, 2011 23:09
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De Nomolos posted:So I've been working in HR in the public sector for some time now. I've done a lot of training in areas like project management, performance evaluation, strategic compensation, all stuff that you'd think would translate well to the private sector. I also spent a year and a half strictly developing training media for new hires. I can't really speak whether to an MBA will be beneficial or not, but as an alternative I think Cornell and a few other schools have masters in HR (or labor relations) that are supposed to be decent.
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Jul 15, 2011 16:15
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Boss finally convinced me, I'm applying for the part-time MBA program at NYU Stern, to start in Spring 2012; fully reimbursed, of course. I'm currently a Vice President of Technology at one of the largest investment banks, no direct reports but manage a relatively visible project within the Compliance Division. They'd prefer me to go on the weekends, keeping my schedule free to travel during the weeks, or just generally be available during weeknights (for those crazy Tokyo market opening hours). Anybody currently in the program, advice on getting in? I had a 3.0 GPA in Computer Science (pretty low, but this was many years ago) and scored a 750 on the GMAT. Not much to speak of in the way of community activities, I'd think my essays would focus solely on work experience, job growth, etc.
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Jul 16, 2011 18:31
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Don Wrigley posted:Boss finally convinced me, I'm applying for the part-time MBA program at NYU Stern, to start in Spring 2012; fully reimbursed, of course. I'm currently a Vice President of Technology at one of the largest investment banks, no direct reports but manage a relatively visible project within the Compliance Division. They'd prefer me to go on the weekends, keeping my schedule free to travel during the weeks, or just generally be available during weeknights (for those crazy Tokyo market opening hours). Barcap (ex-Lehman) employee? I know a lot of ex-Lehman employees that are doing funded part-time MBAs at Stern and it seems pretty easy to get in at least judging by the backgrounds of those doing it. You can't do anything about your GPA but your GMAT's fine. I'd focus on really polished essays. Just be aware that there's a difference in treatment of part-time vs. full-time MBAs even within the same school in terms of campus recruiting, course work, and general prestige. shrike82 fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jul 16, 2011 |
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Jul 16, 2011 20:32
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shrike82 posted:Just be aware that there's a difference in treatment of part-time vs. full-time MBAs even within the same school in terms of campus recruiting, course work, and general prestige.
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Jul 17, 2011 02:35
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Small White Dragon posted:Can you elaborate on this? I don't think it is deliberate in most places, but it is just easier to get on campus students involved in recruiting/networking activities and whatnot. If you're doing your degree for a job you already have it should be relatively transparent, it isn't like your diploma is going to say "WAS A PART TIME MBA" or something.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:43
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bewbies posted:I don't think it is deliberate in most places, but it is just easier to get on campus students involved in recruiting/networking activities and whatnot. It's simpler than that. Part-time MBA students at Stern (and many other schools) aren't allowed to go for the on-campus recruiting events for full-time students.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:50
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I've been considering applying for the Master of Science in Global Management at Thunderbird. The MBA program at Thunderbird has been the #1 International MBA for several years running, but I haven't been able to find too much about their MS. Despite this, they have a program where people who graduate their Master's programs can, upon obtaining work experience, have credits transferred to the MBA. With that boost, three years of school gets you both a Master's and a separate MBA. I don't qualify for an MBA right now, but I think the MS by itself might help propel me into the business world. As it stands, I don't have the credentials to break into it on my own. I graduate with a BA in International Relations from a crappy (but fully accredited) online college with about a 3.5 GPA next month, and my work experience is 4 years military (enlisted, not officer, big difference), I'm fluent in Arabic, and I have a TS security clearance (Edit: And I don't have a penis. Apparently that's helpful?). I've been doing school for the past year full-time since leaving the military, but with the BA nearly over I'm now a $14/hr desk guard. . . whoopee. The MS is supposed to be a program for people with no business experience; is it a good option to take, then get a few years of work experience, and then finish up the last year of MBA credits? Secondly, do I stand a chance of getting in, providing a decent GMAT? I started studying to take it in October-ish, maybe. Thunderbird has a good reputation, but it's hard to find information on admissions. Since it's a less-known and specialized school, here's the program I'm looking at: http://www.thunderbird.edu/graduate_degrees/master_of_science/index.htm In order to get into this: http://www.thunderbird.edu/graduate_degrees/full_time_mba/_index2.htm VVV Edit: But it sounds so cool! 
The Pretty Zombie fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 18:49
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I know that Thunderbird is a respectable program, but I still giggle a little every time I hear it.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:52
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I don't really know anything about Thunderbird, but I did my undergrad in international business. As a concentration, it seems overrated. I know it sounds thrilling with class names like "Cross-cultural Negotiation" and "Globalization in the 21st Century" but classes like that don't really help you get a job.
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Jul 20, 2011 03:08
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Ganon suggested I stop back in the thread and see how things are going... For those who don't remember, I started my MBA back in 2009 at Wake Forest University Schools of Business. I wasn't exactly sure where I wanted to end up (Finance and earn MILLIONS as a venture capitalist! Marketing and revolutionize things at P&G! Consulting and solve the world's problems, one Comfort Inn at a time!) and remained open to all possibilities. I ended up interning for Pepsi in Chicago. A summer earning good money in Chicago? FUN! Interning outside of the internship program, for a dude who had one foot in the grave and another in retirement? Not good. I could tell from day one that no offer could come from this. My end project was...an Excel spreadsheet of phone numbers. Seriously. After it was all said and done, I got a pretty sweet job at FedEx as a product manager. I like what I do, I like the team...but I'm not sold on Memphis just yet. I really wanted either Chicago or DC, and I probably should have fought harder for a location I really wanted. One of the worst feelings you can have after signing your offer letter and depositing your signing bonus is to immediately wonder if you made the wrong choice. Be certain! So that's my story. I can answer any questions about recruiting, clubs, Wake Forest, whatever.
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Jul 21, 2011 03:24
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Omne posted:Wake Forest -> Chicago -> Memphis How old were you when you started the program? Can you give a brief overview of your resume/work exp. prior to starting? If you're comfortable with the disclosure, what kind of salary increase did you see after graduation (percentage is great)? Thanks!
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Jul 21, 2011 09:06
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shrike82 posted:It's simpler than that. Part-time MBA students at Stern (and many other schools) aren't allowed to go for the on-campus recruiting events for full-time students. Yes, I'm well aware of this. It makes some sense; if I was my company, I wouldn't want to be paying $100K for this employee's education while he's being recruited by other investment banks...let me at least get some value for a couple years afterward if he's going to jump ship. What doesn't make sense to me is why someone would go to a part time program and pay for it themselves. Alas, I am a bit older than your average full-time MBA student, with a wife, kids, mortgage, etc., and feel I'm past the point of quitting my comfortable software developer lifestyle to become a 100-hour a week investment banker and/or travelling consultant. I would, however, like to make Managing Director (partner?) one day within my current organization, and the skills of an MBA can certainly help in that cause, if my manager is to be believed.
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Jul 22, 2011 02:01
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Sits on Pilster posted:How old were you when you started the program? I was 27 when I started my program. I had spent just over four years doing direct marketing for a regional bank in Ohio. Had decent progress and good recs, with a crappy undergrad GPA and pretty good GMAT for not really studying as much as I should have. After all was said and done, I doubled my salary (well, technically it increased 86%), not counting any signing bonuses, future yearly bonuses or relocation assistance
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Jul 22, 2011 03:14
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Question for the masses: I have a 3.0 GPA and I've yet to take the GMAT (getting work experience first) but I did write a business thesis in undergrad that earned an honors distinction. How much do you think something like that can offset my mediocre GPA? Looking to crack the top 40 for an MBA program; not looking at top 8.
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Jul 22, 2011 08:17
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LARGE THE HEAD posted:Question for the masses: Probably about the same as my few semesters on the Dean's List did: not much. Whether you get into top 40 or not won't be because of your undergrad business thesis.
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Jul 23, 2011 00:01
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The Pretty Zombie posted:I've been considering applying for the Master of Science in Global Management at Thunderbird. The MBA program at Thunderbird has been the #1 International MBA for several years running, but I haven't been able to find too much about their MS. Despite this, they have a program where people who graduate their Master's programs can, upon obtaining work experience, have credits transferred to the MBA. With that boost, three years of school gets you both a Master's and a separate MBA. I don't qualify for an MBA right now, but I think the MS by itself might help propel me into the business world. Honestly I would strongly suggest looking at what kind of money and job placement you get from the MS and MBA at that school vs the cost. A lot of these non-top Masters/MBA programs are just huge ripoffs relative to the benefits you get. And generally it seems when people get a 1 year masters right out of undergrad, they still end up in entry level positions at basically the same pay.
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Jul 23, 2011 04:08
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Don Wrigley posted:Yes, I'm well aware of this. It makes some sense; if I was my company, I wouldn't want to be paying $100K for this employee's education while he's being recruited by other investment banks...let me at least get some value for a couple years afterward if he's going to jump ship. What doesn't make sense to me is why someone would go to a part time program and pay for it themselves. The company can easily demand that prior to disbursement, that the employee sign a promissory note or contract to repay the money if he/she voluntarily resigns ahead of 24 months or whatever the time frame may be.
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Jul 25, 2011 19:45
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xdimitrix posted:Honestly I would strongly suggest looking at what kind of money and job placement you get from the MS and MBA at that school vs the cost. A lot of these non-top Masters/MBA programs are just huge ripoffs relative to the benefits you get. And generally it seems when people get a 1 year masters right out of undergrad, they still end up in entry level positions at basically the same pay. I wouldn't mind an entry-level position with lovely pay if it was in the business field with room to grow. My degree in IR has gotten me nowhere in my search for a "real" job.
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Jul 26, 2011 18:32
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Thoguh posted:Are you looking at a part time MBA while you work, or going full time? Sorry for the delay in response but I pretty much figured out what I wanted to do. I think I want to lean towards part time MBA outside of my engineering job. I've currently applied for a promotion (the process from application to job offer is glacier slow) so here are my choices: University of Iowa (preferred) Drake University Iowa State Universities None of these schools except for Iowa seems to really be worth much but they seem to be sticking to their 3.0 GPA minimum, which concerns me a bit. As I said in the original post, my GPA was a 2.7. While Iowa says that they're willing to look at the total package, I'm just wondering if they're really willing to throw out an applicant with high scores, good recommendation letters, a good job, etc. due a low GPA three years ago. If that promotion doesn't pan out, then there are a couple of options here: University of Nebraska at Omaha Creighton University They don't seem to have as stringent of requirements (probably because they are lesser schools) so it seems like these are easier but nothing seems guaranteed for these either. I guess the lesson is to study hard at school the first time but I'm curious if what I have is still good enough to go to these schools.
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Jul 30, 2011 21:11
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Part time MBAs are cash cows for universities. Do well on your GMAT and you're almost assured of getting in. At worst they might let you in conditionally based on how you do in your first semester.
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Jul 30, 2011 23:45
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Thoguh posted:Part time MBAs are cash cows for universities. Do well on your GMAT and you're almost assured of getting in. At worst they might let you in conditionally based on how you do in your first semester. That said, a lot of them still seem really selective even in this economy. 
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Jul 31, 2011 01:58
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Small White Dragon posted:I've been told they can charge out the wazoo (and they know it) for part-time/executive MBAs, since generally some company is picking up the tab. At my school the full tuition for part time MBA's is around $30k for the program, and for executive MBAs it is like double. But the actual cost to the university is a fraction of that. Since around half the people of any given class are from my company, the place I work is basically paying $30K-$100K per class just by itself.
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Jul 31, 2011 06:13
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So I just finished my first year of b-school at a part-time/executive program. Yay 
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Aug 6, 2011 00:43
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Was looking for a little advice. I've been working in a public finance banking group for about a year, doing stuff like financing development projects through revenue bonds and traditional municipality general obligation issuances. I had a 3.5 in economics at UCLA, and was a college athlete. So I guess my questions are 1. What do I need on the GMAT to get into Harvard/MIT/Wharton/Kellogg/Tuck/Columbia/Stern/Yale (looking to come back to east coast) 2. Could I consider studying this year and applying in Fall 2012 with a little less than 2 years of experience or do I need to wait another year? 3. Are the admission counselors worth it?
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Aug 7, 2011 00:24
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Its Miller Time posted:Was looking for a little advice. I've been working in a public finance banking group for about a year, doing stuff like financing development projects through revenue bonds and traditional municipality general obligation issuances. I had a 3.5 in economics at UCLA, and was a college athlete. So I guess my questions are The GMAT is a filter - getting above a certain number won't help you with your app. Harvard and Wharton are hard to get into especially since you seem to have a vanilla finance background. The fact that you're considering Yale makes me wonder if you've done any research into MBA programs? The biggest factor beyond your CV is going to be your essays. Why an MBA and what're your long term goals? shrike82 fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Aug 7, 2011 |
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Aug 7, 2011 00:31
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