Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Toast Museum: Dec 3, 2005; 30% Iron Chef

Jut posted:

No, I don't. You're not in a dictatorship or one party system like in Egypt, Libya, Syria or Tunisia, you're in a Western style democracy. The Israeli population has voted time and time again for parties that are willing to crack down hard on Palestinians instead of more moderate parties. As I said before it's not the government who are moving into houses built on the ashes of Palestinian homes, it's normal, every day Israeli people.
If you want sympathy then you need to put equality for Arab Israelis and I/P as part of this protest movement because at the moment you're just coming across as a bunch of whining cunts while people are living in Squalor right next door to you. You've even said you're trying to not mention I/P in this movement, so from my chair it does seem very much to be a "me me me" protest.

Let me ask you, who did you vote for in the last election? Hadash? Meretz? Did you do anything and everything not to take part in military service?

By that logic, nobody in the US should ever protest, right? I mean, they have it better than most of the rest of the world, and for any given protester I'm sure you can find issues on which their position is injurious to someone else.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:12

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# ? May 21, 2024 11:11

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

el samayo grande posted:

That's ridiculous - all of the protests have been about the country involved. You didn't see anything in Egypt and Syria about Palestine, and they border occupied territories as well.

Changing the current system of government in Israel can help I/P relations, but like Kane said, I/P's being used by Likud to divide the protesters. For a lot of Egyptians, using Islam as a basis for governance is incredibly important, but that wasn't necessary to make life a whole lot better in Egypt.

The difference is that the other protests were not crying foul while at the same time oppressing others. You don't see the hypocrisy involved on crying about expensive housing and food, while actively taking part in a society that's knocking down people's home and keeping them in poverty? Look at the top 4 political parties in Israel and their views on the I/P issue, then look at the % share of the vote held by parties that have anti-arab policies. Compare that to more progressive parties.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:16

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Toast Museum posted:

By that logic, nobody in the US should ever protest, right? I mean, they have it better than most of the rest of the world, and for any given protester I'm sure you can find issues on which their position is injurious to someone else.

The US is stuck in the rut of a two party political system. Israel has a gently caress load more choice, and it's pretty clear which way people are voting. Plus it has a small enough population that every vote really can make a difference. If those 300,000 protesters voted for one of the more liberal parties, then that would net them 10% of the seats available, the party with the highest share of votes only has 22% of the seats available. 300,000 votes across the entire US is a drop in the water.

Jut fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Aug 8, 2011

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:18

Mad Doctor Cthulhu: Mar 3, 2008

Toast Museum posted:

By that logic, nobody in the US should ever protest, right? I mean, they have it better than most of the rest of the world, and for any given protester I'm sure you can find issues on which their position is injurious to someone else.

But comfort is subjective, and that is really what is at stake here. We can talk about bridging differences ideologically all we want, but one thing that binds people together is the idea of financial and economic freedom to do those things we want. While most people would see it as a dire thing, it's actually a relief. We don't have to bridge differences in this case but just emphasize what we all want. And that is the freedom and the money to live life in a much better fashion.

Althusser was right: money is the base of how our world works, and without it nothing else really functions. The rest of the superstructure--arts, entertainment, business, et cetera--simply does not hold without that money. Perhaps we should be pushing that as a way to enact change as well?

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:20

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Something that's been going on and hasn't been widely reported is a court case in Egypt to take Libyan State TV channels off Nilesat, currently beaming those channels to most of Libya. After several weeks of legal wrangling and court cases it was decided on July 30th that Nilesat had to stop providing those chanels, and the Gaddafi regime lawyers appealed.

Today was the appeal hearing, where apparently the Gaddafi regime lawyers attempted to delay the appeal by failing to bring the correct documents. Instead the judge decided that the appeal would take place on October 3rd, but importantly that the original decision to shut down the channels made on July 30th still stood. On Wednesday lawyers and Egyptian police will be visiting the Nilesat offices to ensure it's shut down, and this will mean most of Libya will be unable to receive Libyan State TV.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:38

Toast Museum: Dec 3, 2005; 30% Iron Chef

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

But comfort is subjective, and that is really what is at stake here. We can talk about bridging differences ideologically all we want, but one thing that binds people together is the idea of financial and economic freedom to do those things we want. While most people would see it as a dire thing, it's actually a relief. We don't have to bridge differences in this case but just emphasize what we all want. And that is the freedom and the money to live life in a much better fashion.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to relate to what I was saying. Did you think I was earnestly suggesting that Americans should never protest? My point was that if you're going to dismiss protests in Israel for failing to put Palestine front-and-center, you should probably also be dismissive of any Americans protesting about issues related to their own well-being.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:42

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

el samayo grande posted:

That's ridiculous - all of the protests have been about the country involved. You didn't see anything in Egypt and Syria about Palestine, and they border occupied territories as well.

This is completely wrong, Palestine was a big point of discussion during the revolution. In fact during Nakba day there was a huge protest and riot in front of the Israeli embassy calling for Israeli withdrawal etc.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 14:52

Kane: Aug 20, 2000; Do you see the problem?

Conscious of pain, you're distracted by pain.
You're fixated on it. Obsessed by one threat, you miss the other.

So much more aware, so much less perceptive. An automaton could do better.

Are you in there?

Are you listening? Can you see?

Jut posted:

The US is stuck in the rut of a two party political system. Israel has a gently caress load more choice, and it's pretty clear which way people are voting. Plus it has a small enough population that every vote really can make a difference. If those 300,000 protesters voted for one of the more liberal parties, then that would net them 10% of the seats available, the party with the highest share of votes only has 22% of the seats available. 300,000 votes across the entire US is a drop in the water.

The political system in the US is arguably in a better shape than the one in Israel. At least your politicians change every few years. Ours are stuck there forever, free to treat the country and its wealth as their own. The democracy here is bullshit. Democracy doesn't function when the populace votes almost solely based on fear of a perceived existential threat.

Also, give me a break - the US is responsible for MUCH more suffering in the world than Israel ever was and ever will be, but that didn't stop me from voicing my solidarity with the Wisconsin workers's protest or any other agenda I identify with. Likewise, when the Egyptians revolted, my solidarity with them didn't stop because of their gross mistreatment of Sudanese refugees. You are being hypocritical.

I have been voting for Meretz for my entire life and even when it was bigger than the magical number you suggested it could do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to fix the I/P situation.

Finally, the problem with settlers is that a vast number of them are not "normal individuals". They are hardcore fanatics.

You have to understand that we suffer from the occupation just as well (if not hardly as much) as the Palestinians do and we don't have much more power to change the situation. This is the only possible start, the only possible change for now. You can be idealistic and stick your fingers in your ears until all your demands are met or join us here in reality.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 15:12

pantslesswithwolves: Oct 28, 2008

Kane, thanks for putting yourself out there and answering questions.

I'd like to know this: have the settlers joined the demonstrations in any meaningful way? I've seen a few tweets from 972 magazine writer @IbnReza about there being some minor clashes between protesters and settlers who tried to set up tents. What's your feelings on the extreme right/settlers joining the protest movement?

Also, I recall reading an article saying that a whole bunch of MKs said, "Housing problems? I know a place where we can build cheaply and freely :smug:

" with regard to more West Bank settlement expansion. If the government announced building tens of thousands of new housing units in the Occupied Territories, what portion of the protesters do you think would be placated by that?

# ? Aug 8, 2011 15:24

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Jut posted:

Let me ask you, who did you vote for in the last election? Hadash? Meretz? Did you do anything and everything not to take part in military service?

Jut, how the gently caress do you want them to address the Israeli-Palestine conflict with the extreme-right fucks at Likud using the conflict to divide the protesters?

# ? Aug 8, 2011 15:24

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

suboptimal posted:

I'd like to know this: have the settlers joined the demonstrations in any meaningful way? I've seen a few tweets from 972 magazine writer @IbnReza about there being some minor clashes between protesters and settlers who tried to set up tents. What's your feelings on the extreme right/settlers joining the protest movement?

I'm not the poster that you addressed this to, but the settlers who've joined the protest have flat-out admitted that they just joined up in order to cause the protests to turn violent and fail to achieve anything.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 16:32

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Kane posted:

You have to understand that we suffer from the occupation just as well (if not hardly as much) as the Palestinians do and we don't have much more power to change the situation.

Then put this at the forefront. If the occupation is the source of your suffering then tell the world. It would be nice to show the rest of the world that there are divides in Israel instead of the "evil ZIONIST imperialists" image that is currently painted.
If they are using fear tactics, call them out on their bullshit.

As I said beforehand, refusing to bring up I/P give the image of looking like complete assholes...some "all is not actually fine in sunny Israel" would do wonders for PR.

Oh and try some grassroots campaigning for the more moderate parties.

If this is true though...

quote:

I'm not the poster that you addressed this to, but the settlers who've joined the protest have flat-out admitted that they just joined up in order to cause the protests to turn violent and fail to achieve anything.

...it does seem that the views of the protesters are very much in the minority.

Remember this is the image which is pretty much crippling your goals

quote:

On the topic of the events in israel, *edit* woop scratch that, morning papers are out and reporting this*edit*, but generally the perspective on the arab internet-twittersphere is "Racist Terrorist colonizers are complaining about prices of land and housing they stole."

On Twitter, arab youth (especially Egyptians) have hashtagged the news about the israeli protests as #thawretweladelkalb wich means "The revolution of the sons of Dogs" and includes comments such as " Come on People, this hashtag is extremely racist, think of how dogs feel!" and "these People are making a revolution, But in someone else's Country!" and " Oh please netanyahu! killing and murdering arabs has become really expensive!" and "Who do these loving racists think they are pretending to fight for freedom?!" and a retweet storm for the following twitter "Hey israeli's, when the police teargas you, put pepperspray in your eyes to remove the effects!" and another one " Hey israelis, prepare some black paintspray when police wearing visors come close to you to hit you, spray your own face with it so no-one has to see your ugly loving face"

The general view is that The protest in israels attempt to somehow paint itself as part of an 'arab spring' is a joke as bad as when israelis tried to steal hummus and proclaim it as their national dish. Since most Arab youth know with all their heart that the vast majority of those israeli youth wouldn't think twice about bombing and invading another arab country or people when the chance comes.

You need a huge PR campaign.

Jut fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Aug 8, 2011

# ? Aug 8, 2011 16:58

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

And this last page is why I think Kane et al are wise to keep the I/P issue out of their protests. It just generates heat and noise. And there are a lot of people with vested interests in using it to do so, both in and outside Israel. For example, everyone remembers the recent Syrian assault on the border wall, and the resulting deaths, which was pretty blatantly planned as a way to distract people from what was going on inside Syria.

The I/P issue will be dealt when when the current people are out of power. Work on that, because people can do that. What they can't do is change Likud's minds.

Work with what you can change. Remember what you can't. Stay practical, but never let practicality destroy the path built by your ideals.

Build a future, Kane. Do your best. One day, there will be peace in the middle east. It is not impossible.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 17:02

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Ace Oliveira posted:

Jut, how the gently caress do you want them to address the Israeli-Palestine conflict with the extreme-right fucks at Likud using the conflict to divide the protesters?

Seems to be pretty consistent with Jut's opinions so far. Rational actors and 'just vote for the other guys' mentality.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 17:20

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Keep in mind that the paper is owned by the Saudis, but al-Sharq al-Awsat says the US has convinced Saleh to not return to Yemen.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/08/uk-yemen-president-usa-idUKTRE7771UL20110808 posted:

U.S. officials have convinced Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh, convalescing in Saudi Arabia from an assassination attempt, not to return to his country, the pan-Arab newspaper Asharq al-Awsat reported on Monday.

The report came a day after the veteran Arab leader left hospital in Riyadh and was moved to a government residence for further recuperation, as mass protests against his 33-year rule wore into their seventh month.

Yemeni officials denied the report and said the president would return to Sanaa, where fighting between troops loyal to Saleh and pro-opposition tribesmen has been increasing.

Officials at the U.S. embassy in Sanaa were unavailable for comment.

Since the June bomb blast at Saleh's presidential compound, a period of relative calm has been broken by a rise in regional clashes -- including a bloody battle with Islamist militants linked to al Qaeda in the south.

Citing U.S. sources, the London-based Asharq al-Awsat said Washington had managed to pressure Saleh, 69, into retreating from his promise to return and lead a dialogue in Yemen.

They told Asharq al-Awsat that Saleh had been greatly influenced by the spectacle of toppled Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak, who faced charges from within a black cage in a Cairo court last week.

The sources told the paper the U.S. ambassador to Yemen, Gerald Feierstein, had told the State Department to refrain from publicising pressure on the Yemeni president because he is "a stubborn person and cannot be put in a corner."

The United States and neighbouring oil giant Saudi Arabia, both targets of attacks by al Qaeda's Yemen-based wing, have tried to stave off rising turmoil in the Arabian Peninsula state by pursuing a power transition plan brokered by Gulf countries.

Saleh, a shrewd political survivor, backed out of inking the deal three times despite saying he accepted the plan. Yemeni officials have said the president took issue with the initiative's time frame, which required him to step down in 30 days and hold an election 60 days later.

"Saleh not returning to Yemen is an American desire but the president is determined to return," Abdulhafeedh al-Nihari, a member of Saleh's ruling party at his media office, told Asharq al-Awsat. "The solution however will not be far from the spirit of the Gulf initiative, except without the restrictions to specific time periods."

But U.S. sources were quoted by Asharq al-Awsat as saying that Saleh had been convinced he should stay in Saudi Arabia, which has told the president he must sign the Gulf deal before he can remain permanently.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 17:20

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Warcabbit posted:

The I/P issue will be dealt when when the current people are out of power. Work on that, because people can do that. What they can't do is change Likud's minds.

That's the problem though. The current people will remain in power as long as they are able to use I/P as a means to scare people into voting for their hard-line policies. The only way to get them out of power is to convince people that there is an alternative to this hard-line approach.
You don't need to change the minds of Likud et al, but the people who vote for them.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 17:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The TNC just ordered Mahmoud Jebril, Chairman of the Executive Board, to fire and replace the executive board, which is pretty much the TNC cabinet.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 19:19

J33uk: Oct 24, 2005

Well that's not the most reassuring thing I've seen all day.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 20:00

Prostheticfoot: Mar 27, 2002

Jut posted:

That's the problem though. The current people will remain in power as long as they are able to use I/P as a means to scare people into voting for their hard-line policies. The only way to get them out of power is to convince people that there is an alternative to this hard-line approach.
You don't need to change the minds of Likud et al, but the people who vote for them.

Goddamn Jut. Your finger on the pulse of the ENTIRE PLANET is just amazing. What is it like to know the answers to every question better than everybody with first hand knowledge? Do you think there's some way we could just skip the rest of the arab spring and annoint you forums poster Jut as Ruler of All the Light Touches, so you could make these benevolent and wonderful roadmaps to peace a reality while you're blowing CQ and getting fanned by virgins with palm fronds?

Sorry to interrupt,I think you were busy lecturing an iraeli protestor on the legitimacy of his movement when you left off last?

Thanks for posting Kane. Keep it up.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 8, 2011 20:02

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Brown Moses posted:

The TNC just ordered Mahmoud Jebril, Chairman of the Executive Board, to fire and replace the executive board, which is pretty much the TNC cabinet.

Any reason why? That sounds pretty drastic.

prostheticfoot posted:

bullshit sarcasm

Care to deal with the point I made or can all you do is throw your toys out of the pram.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 20:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I've not seen any more details, and my Twitter is full of reports from London at the moment.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 20:45

Nuclear Spoon: Aug 18, 2010; I want to cry out
but I don’t scream and I don’t shout
And I feel so proud
to be alive

Ken is the first person on the BBC to actually to say something more than "this is terrible and we should lock them all away".

# ? Aug 8, 2011 20:47

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Brown Moses posted:

I've not seen any more details, and my Twitter is full of reports from London at the moment.

Speaking of the UK, the BBC are reporting violence in Birmingham...no explanation why though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14452468

also

quote:

2047: He says senior police officers have been warning the government that there was a danger of violence like this for a while.
2046: Former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone says the government has failed to realise the level of discontent among young people who are facing a "bleak" future.

Any chance this could lead into something bigger? I myself left the UK due to lack of a future there...would love to see things change.

Edit: hilarious Irish guy on the BBC live feed right now.

Jut fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 8, 2011

# ? Aug 8, 2011 20:50

thiswayliesmadness: Dec 3, 2009; I hope to see you next time, and take care all

Jut posted:

Speaking of the UK, the BBC are reporting violence in Birmingham...no explanation why though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14452468

also

Any chance this could lead into something bigger? I myself left the UK due to lack of a future there...would love to see things change.

Edit: hilarious Irish guy on the BBC live feed right now.

I take it you haven't seen this thread?
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3429742&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

# ? Aug 8, 2011 21:09

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Jut posted:

Speaking of the UK, the BBC are reporting violence in Birmingham...no explanation why though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14452468

also

Any chance this could lead into something bigger? I myself left the UK due to lack of a future there...would love to see things change.

Edit: hilarious Irish guy on the BBC live feed right now.

Brown Moses posted:

The TNC just ordered Mahmoud Jebril, Chairman of the Executive Board, to fire and replace the executive board, which is pretty much the TNC cabinet.

Could be related to Younes and investigations that the TNC promised would be carried out.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 23:33

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Walid Jumblatt was in Turkey yesterday meeting Erdogan and is said to be meeting with Sa'ad Hariri. Looks like Syria is beginning to lose its Lebanese allies.

# ? Aug 8, 2011 23:55

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Walid Jumblatt is a total tool. Also it's pretty unsurprising that he's anti-Syria, since they killed his dad.

Nobody actually takes Jumblatt too seriously as far as I can tell, although is true that the Druze tend to sort of be a wild card in Lebanese politics.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 01:00

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

It's not that Jumblatt himself should be taken seriously, it's that he tends to be a good bellwether for Lebanese and regional politics because he'll switch back and forth based on who he thinks will protect him/the Druze better. So he was pro-Syria during most of their occupation, anti-Syria in 2005 when it became clear they were going to be forced out, but made nice with them recently and has now basically (officially?) joined March 8th, but it seems like he's going to be moving away from Syria based on meeting with Turkey.

This guy met with Hafez al-Assad weeks after they killed his father, so his true feelings are almost irrelevant, he just tends to have very good political sense.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 01:08

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Yeah that's true. I wonder if Hezbollah's gonna stop blindly supporting the Assad regime any time soon. They've been pretty lovely during this whole thing.

edit: Also, I really hope the trend of naming political movements after calendar dates is going to end soon.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 01:38

Sneakums: Nov 27, 2007; MAXIMUM.SNEAK.

^^^ oops, didnt see that Kenning. I'd agree too.

Hey guys, just thought I'd drop this in:

AJE Liveblog posted:

According to Syrian State TV, Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, has appointed General Dawoud Rajha as the new defence minister replacing Ali Habib.

Source

The official story is that the ex-minister was replaced due to some health concerns. As you can imagine, there are rumors that say it was another reason. I'd be really interested in knowing why the change in ministers (the defence one, at this time? wtf) happened when it did.

I don't to start another long argument, but Kane and Jut, you guys seem to be furiously agreeing that the current government in Israel has some bad policies and that it needs a change.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 01:39

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Kenning posted:

Yeah that's true. I wonder if Hezbollah's gonna stop blindly supporting the Assad regime any time soon. They've been pretty lovely during this whole thing.

edit: Also, I really hope the trend of naming political movements after calendar dates is going to end soon.

I hope so, it's getting hard to keep track.

Hezbollah has been very silent about Syria the last few months, it didn't come up the last time Nasrallah spoke. It will certainly damage their standing in Syria if al-Assad goes, but it will take a lot for them to publicly come out against him.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 01:46

Scaramouche: Mar 26, 2001; SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

I don't want to re-open the can of worms, but I think the Israel protests are actually a pretty good sign because they indicate some sign of engagement in the political process. Everyone's saying that Israel is a western style democracy, but really it isn't. It's basically as oligarchic as Russia, without a consistent strong man propping it up. If people start registering an opinion other than 'blind faith in the state', and start formulating an economic policy other than 'let the same 20 people own every drat thing', then I bet you'll see some diversity of opinion and movement on the I/P issue. I'm being hyperbolic for humourous effect of course, but the very fact that Israelis are questioning something about their government has to lead somewhere.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 02:47

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Reuters video reporting on landmines in Nafusa
Libya rebels dissolve cabinet after commander's death
Libya seeks court injunction to halt handover of embassy properties
Canada, siding with rebels, shuts Libyan embassy
Amid a Berber Reawakening in Libya, Fears of Revenge - Good read
Libyan rebels set up force to protect oil fields
Mugabe labels Nato a 'terrorist group' over Libya
NATO Report

quote:

Sorties conducted 8 AUGUST: 121
Strike sorties conducted 8 AUGUST: 54
Key Hits 8 AUGUST:
In the vicinity of Brega: 3 Military Vehicles, 2 Multiple Rocket Launchers.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 1 Weapons Storage, 1 Ship, 1 Surface to Air Missile System.
In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Ammunition Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Zlitan: 1 Military Facility, 1 Communications System.
In the vicinity of Zintan: 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher; 2 Military Vehicles.

1 ship near Tripoli?

# ? Aug 9, 2011 08:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Here's a handy map:

# ? Aug 9, 2011 10:45

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Anyone fancy a bit of detective work? Over on the Guardian live blog someone posted this link, basically making claims that the Zawiyah uprising was a planned event by terrorist types. It mentions two organisations I'd like to look into a bit:

quote:

The French CIRET-AVT / CF2R report of May was based on a month-long fact-finding mission, by six terrorism and intelligence experts, to both sides of Libya.

This is the CIRET-AVT site, which is a bit Geocities, so I'm wondering if anyone knows anything more about who they actually are?

# ? Aug 9, 2011 13:03

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

The CIREt-AVT association itself is a sort of NPO, they claim to have been founded in 2003, and were organizing meetings back in 04, but their official, legal existence only dates back to 05/16/2009. No idea why.

Sayda Ben Habyl�s, over here, is quoted saying that Bernard Henri Levy is one of the leaders of the rebels and that NATO forces kill civilians, children, woman, shoot everything that moves and have bombed hospitals.

Roumiana Ougartchinska is more of a KGB/Eastern Europe specialist and wrote a book accusing the CIA of being the ones behind Jean Paul II's assassination attempt.

Yves Bonnet was director of the DST from 1982 to 1985. Since then he's become a specialist on terrorism and writes books; both investigative pieces and spy fiction.

Dirk Borgers, the independent belgian expert, was scammed in 1998 by D�sir� Vodonou who claimed to have a briefcase containing $20million belonging to Mobutu. Him and a partner lost 3.6 million francs.

Eric Den�c� claims to have been an intelligence officer; more exactly, he worked as an intern at the SGDN.

Andr� Le Meignen is an adviser to multiple African head of states, and a diplomat / ambassador. For what country ? He won't say. He does blame the French administration of despoiling him because he was an entrepreneur, and the French justice system of the homicide of his wife.

Now I'm not saying the report is unreliable, and finding dirt on people isn't really all that hard.

(Little bonus: CIREt-AVT founder and journalist Jean-Paul Ney is a nutcase, sentenced twice for death threats against a webmaster; also indicted by a counter-terrorist judge for stealing a network access card at the Foreign Affairs Ministry, and arrested by french secret service in Ivory Coast in a suspected plot against Gbagbo. He didn't participate in this trip though, so kind of irrelevant)

-edit- I didn't keep track of my sources because it was taking up too many tabs, but I'm willing to google them if you need them.

pylb fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Aug 9, 2011

# ? Aug 9, 2011 14:59

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

Well, Saida Benhabiles, one of the supposed founders, is a shill for the Algerian Bouteflika regime from what I can tell.
She was also the only Arabic speaker of the delegation of "experts" in Libya...

But there is little reason to question the source if the report itself is so terrible. Nothing at all is sourced, I haven't read it all yet but so far there are a lot of bold claims without anything backing them up.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 14:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I've been reading through the report too, and it's a bit obsessed about the LFIG, and repeats the pretty weak claims about Abdul Hakimm Al-Hasidi being a major player in the rebels, based off that Telegraph article, even though he only commands 25 people.

Thanks for the research pylb, obviously everything is in French so it's hard to find anything interesting as the only time it's mentioned in English sites is the report they did on Libya.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Aug 9, 2011

# ? Aug 9, 2011 15:04

AtomikKrab: Jul 17, 2010; Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.

So the rebel leadership uhm... fired itself? OR at least was forced to step down after apparently loving up? If so that is kind of reassuring that maybe they aren't just as bad as the regime they are opposing.

# ? Aug 9, 2011 17:28

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# ? May 21, 2024 11:11

Sneakums: Nov 27, 2007; MAXIMUM.SNEAK.

Sneakums posted:

Source

The official story is that the ex-minister was replaced due to some health concerns. As you can imagine, there are rumors that say it was another reason. I'd be really interested in knowing why the change in ministers (the defence one, at this time? wtf) happened when it did.

That same ex-minister of defense in Syria was found dead today, according to non-government sources. Source.

Voices of dissent?

# ? Aug 9, 2011 17:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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