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eSports Chaebol posted:The issue is that right now there is a prime opportunity to paint Qaddafi with a single stroke, including his economic legacy, in order to reverse the economy in the direction of providing less for the Libyan people, which would be a very bad thing. Yeah, thats the real danger, that the anger at Gaddafi used to reserve the legitimately good things he did. Privitization would make Libya become an even bigger kleptocracy than it already is, Gaddafi stole from his people but he isn't the only one in the world capable of that feat. Now that he is dead, the goal should be securing the economy rights of the people of Libya and making sure Gaddafi's and the states assets are held for the people.
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Oct 24, 2011 07:46
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eSports Chaebol posted:The issue is that right now there is a prime opportunity to paint Qaddafi with a single stroke, including his economic legacy, in order to reverse the economy in the direction of providing less for the Libyan people, which would be a very bad thing. That's exactly why the myth has to be put to rest. "Gaddafi was a bad man but he ran a good economy" is a lie. The kind of lie that can be debunked by anyone with five minutes and an internet connection. If it is used, it will be called out, and those using it discredited. "The future of Libya's economy must be transparent, and its wealth needs to go to its people rather than its rulers" is a truth that stands on its own, as is "don't break a safety net unless you have a better one."
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Oct 24, 2011 08:01
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A few of my friends on facebook are complaining about Libya now becoming a Islamic Republic that have already signed all their oil away to US-NATO. I've tried pointing out that western Oil companies where already heavily invested in Libya (oh hay BP), but by accepting help from NATO Libya have apparently given away their Oil to NATO for free. These people are really far to the left.
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Oct 24, 2011 08:26
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zalderach posted:A few of my friends on facebook are complaining about Libya now becoming a Islamic Republic that have already signed all their oil away to US-NATO. I've tried pointing out that western Oil companies where already heavily invested in Libya (oh hay BP), but by accepting help from NATO Libya have apparently given away their Oil to NATO for free. A country that has it's own revolution can do whatever the gently caress it wants. If Libya wants to be an Islamic Republic, then so be it.
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Oct 24, 2011 08:32
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zalderach posted:A few of my friends on facebook are complaining about Libya now becoming a Islamic Republic that have already signed all their oil away to US-NATO. I've tried pointing out that western Oil companies where already heavily invested in Libya (oh hay BP), but by accepting help from NATO Libya have apparently given away their Oil to NATO for free. The latter is more of a possibility than the former, Western companies are already in Libya but they can always press for better deals especially in a chaotic time such as now. It question of actual proof is different, and the NTC's near term economic plan is something that is I want to definitely see. I heard them mention an "alternative economy" expect for oil but no specifics.
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Oct 24, 2011 08:33
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I find it both depressing and darkly humorous that the left (not the American neo-liberal "left" but the actual, international socialist left) is still struggling with the legacy of Stalin. Now, I'm not attempting some witty slur here. I'm referring to the ideological ramifications of the Stalinist period, and how it has formed the left's view of economic and political rights. See, the communist revolution in Russia promised to usher in a new, more just and more prosperous era for all of humanity. Its accomplishments were going to make the capitalist system look as outdated and backwards as the feudal system which had preceded it. It made a whole lot of socialists pin their hopes on the Soviet Union, the first true workers' state. Well, that didn't happen. Whatever promise the Soviet Union had was drowned in the intervention, the civil war and the red terror, and then Stalin wormed his way to the top. From the still warm corpse of the workers' state he fashioned a paranoid, lawless empire where no-one was safe, where it was impossible to tell who was going to be the "enemy of the people" du jour, and where failure to properly worship the benevolent leader was punishable with 25 years of hard labour in the Siberian wastes. But hey, he built schools and industrialized the nation! And a whole lot of socialists were still, twenty or thirty years after the World Revolution failed to manifest, pinning their hopes on the Soviet Union. Since even the hardcore capitalist nations allowed their citizens many political rights, and only the revisionist social democracies were able to guarantee their citizens both political and economic rights, leftist radicals had to abandon political rights in favour of economic rights. Over the course of the Cold War and its incessant propaganda, this led to the abhorrent situation we find ourselves in today: As long as you call yourself an anti-imperialist and have a nationalized economy, it doesn't matter how corrupt your state is or how few political rights your citizens have, socialists will still defend you.
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Oct 24, 2011 08:46
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Stalinists are retarded. Maoists are even more retarded. Retarded, deluded and blind. They are, in my opinion, as bad as Holocaust deniers. Absolutely refusing to admit that the people who's cult of personality you are subscribing to were insane mass murderers (And in Mao's case, a rampant pedophile) is a sign of pure delusion.
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Oct 24, 2011 08:49
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It's really hard for them to wrap their head around the fact that NATO was involved and something good actually came out of it. One of them also claimed that the grassroots support for Gaddafi is much larger than the NTC and all news reports he had seen supported this. I posted Videos and Images of massive NTC rallies, but apparently that was not proof enough. The reply was something along the line of "if this is a peoples revolution why are there no women in the street in the middle of the night" It's a predominately Islamic country just exiting a civil war, and it's the middle of the night. You do the math genius. They are approaching AJE building mock Syrian villages territory now.
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Oct 24, 2011 08:55
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MA-Horus posted:Stalinists are retarded. Oh, I quite agree. But my point was that the problem isn't Stalinist, it's the subconscious legacy of Stalin that seems to have made its way into post-WWI socialist reasoning. It's the idea, expressed again and again in this very thread, that economic rights trump political rights every time. Gaddafi had political dissidents killed? There was no freedom of expression or freedom of assembly? There were no democratic institutions within the state? Unimportant! Gaddafi built schools! He distributed the oil money! He called himself a socialist! E: It's like some sort of bizarro-world neo-liberals. "A brutal dictator, you say? But his economic policy looks so good on paper!" Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 08:57
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^^^^^ A million times this ^^^^ I'm going to call Gaddafi a monster and see if they defend him.
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Oct 24, 2011 09:02
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Pon de Bundy posted:A country that has it's own revolution can do whatever the gently caress it wants. If Libya wants to be an Islamic Republic, then so be it. It's certainly their right, and we really have no say whatsoever in their policy decisions, but at the same time theocracies are rather unfortunate things whenever they pop up.
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Oct 24, 2011 09:05
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You get a better insight to the problems of Gaddafi's social projects and Gaddafi's Libya in general if you recall the HIV trials decade ago. A Palestinian doctor and five Bulgarian nurses were prosecuted of spreading HIV to over 400 children in a Benghazi hospital and sentenced to death for that. It was publicised as a huge conspiracy. Except that it became very clear that they were just made scape goats:quote:Saif al-Islam Gaddafi later confirmed that Libyan investigators tortured the medics with electric shocks and threatened to target their families in order to extract the confessions, and confirmed that some of the children had been infected with HIV before the medics arrived in Libya. This, in essence, symbolizes Gaddafi's Libya: you have these foreign medical staff hired with oil money which is a good thing, but then the whole system is so corrupt that you get HIV infected blood given to hundreds of children. And then, rather than recognizing the problems and fixing them, you torture innocent people to confess made up crimes. And that was just the tip of the iceberg, we know about it so well only because most of them were Europeans. Had they been just some local chumps or maybe just the Palestinian doctor alone, they would have been executed and forgotten about. Some choice quotes: Snezhana Dimitrova "They tied my hands behind my back," she wrote. "Then they hung me from a door. It feels like they are stretching you from all sides. My torso was twisted and my shoulders were dislocated from their joints from time to time. The pain cannot be described. The translator was shouting, 'Confess or you will die here."' Valentina Siropulo "I confessed during torture with electricity. They put small wires on my toes and on my thumbs. Sometimes they put one on my thumb and another on my tongue, neck or ear. It had a hand crank to make it go. They had two kinds of machines, one with a crank and one with buttons." Ashraf al-Hajouj "They would strip us naked and torture us with electric shocks. They would attach the electrodes to my genitals. I saw some of the nurses being sexually assaulted. "I was kept in a cell with three police dogs and the officers would make them bite me repeatedly. I still have scars from the bites. We were beaten severely and subjected to deprivation of sleep." I just wonder how the 400+ kids are doing today, 12 years after the trials started?
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Oct 24, 2011 09:26
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Last I checked, the Bulgarian nurse(s) were... not displeased about Gaddafi meeting his end as he did.
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Oct 24, 2011 09:28
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MA-Horus posted:Stalinists are retarded. Most of the effectively 'pro-Gadaffi,' hard left that I've met round and about here in England are actually Trotskyists. They're wrapped in a complete conundrum because they find themselves opposing a popular revolution simply because NATO intervened (at the request of the Libyans, mind you. Remember the Yemenis have asked NATO to stay away). So they've found themselves co-opting the language of the far right (in particular the American right) and are talking about terrorists and Al-Quaida and so on. It must be hard being a complete ideologue, living with all those contradictions in their head. Regarding Gadaffi's death, I would rather he had been brought to trial, but I'm not going to shed a tear about him being gone.
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Oct 24, 2011 09:35
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Re the video on Gadhaffi's end... I suppose it's heartening that most people can't figure out what is going on, but the source of the blood/holes are people ripping chunks of his hair out. You can hear it, too. Gonna drink myself to sleep now.
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Oct 24, 2011 09:41
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zalderach posted:It's really hard for them to wrap their head around the fact that NATO was involved and something good actually came out of it.
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Oct 24, 2011 09:58
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schadenfraud posted:Most of the effectively 'pro-Gadaffi,' hard left that I've met round and about here in England are actually Trotskyists. Y'know, I actually respect the man himself for what he did and tried to accomplish, but this insistence on "loyalty above all" he had (and left as a legacy) is loving infuriating.  "Gotta be loyal to the party. Gotta be loyal to the workers' state." "But the party is actively having your supporters killed! And the workers' state is turning into an imperialist monster!" "Gotta be loyal to the party. Gotta be loyal to the workers' state." "For gently caress's sake..."(15 years of lies, persecution and outright murder pass) "Maybe, just maybe, we should revise our stance on the party. Still gotta be loyal to the workers' state, though."
Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 10:00
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So, what will be the role of women in the new Libya? Headlines like this are just fear-mongering and stupid, but if that really is the statement of the NTC leadership, what exactly does this entail for the women of Libya?
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Oct 24, 2011 10:17
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'Sharia law' has a wide ranging array of interpretations and manifestations. That statement doesn't really mean much.
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Oct 24, 2011 11:11
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Ali Tarhouni has just replaced Jibril as PM, starting the formation of a new government.
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Oct 24, 2011 12:21
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Brown Moses posted:Ali Tarhouni has just replaced Jibril as PM, starting the formation of a new government. That name sounds familiar. What positions has he been in before?
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Oct 24, 2011 12:22
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Brown Moses posted:Ali Tarhouni has just replaced Jibril as PM, starting the formation of a new government. So he stepped down as he promised? Good, very good.
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Oct 24, 2011 12:24
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OwlBot 2000 posted:So, what will be the role of women in the new Libya? Headlines like this are just fear-mongering and stupid, but if that really is the statement of the NTC leadership, what exactly does this entail for the women of Libya? Short term...a lot of lip service to a certain view of Islam Medium term...less lip service, more Westernization Long term...forget Sharia. My business, social, relationships 20 odd years experience in and out of Muslim countries always tells me the same thing, as an old muslim friend of mine explained... A muslim society is based on honour. It's what you are perceived to be and seen to do rather than what you are and what you actually do. Everybody shouts alla's gone to the bar yet everyone, everyone wants a slice of western freedom. Muslims are defensive about their "fragile" (personal opinion) religion but I assure you that the vast, vast majority of them are rather decent people longing for modernization. The Arab Spring (I hope...) is the beginning that modernization. You'll see a lot of Allah this and that in the near future, be patient, don't let that theatre fool you. Religious conservativism is on its way out. I really wish I knew how to load videos I have done in Morocco, I would have a better shot at conveying my thoughts.
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Oct 24, 2011 12:36
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Oh, I quite agree. But my point was that the problem isn't Stalinist, it's the subconscious legacy of Stalin that seems to have made its way into post-WWI socialist reasoning. It's the idea, expressed again and again in this very thread, that economic rights trump political rights every time. Gaddafi had political dissidents killed? There was no freedom of expression or freedom of assembly? There were no democratic institutions within the state? Unimportant! Gaddafi built schools! He distributed the oil money! He called himself a socialist! I'm not denying that there are idiot Stalinists out there who defend this, but I dont think the majority of the International Left has suffered under the shadow of Stalin, just the idiot first year students with a one book understanding of Marx, they dont see the intrinsic failures of the Stalinist system, and by expansion USSR as a whole, rather they ascribe to socialism with the same dogma they may have ascribed to any other belief in their life, they'd be idiots regardless of what they'd believed. The majority of the international left has not really struggled to seperate stalinism from socialism, for example the Fourth International has existed since 1938, so even back then alot of the International Left was well aware of the failures of the comintern and thought it had been lost to stalinism. I'd argue that under Gramsci's ideas of cultural hegemony, Stalinism is some form of psuedo passive revolution, in which the party uses revolutionary rhetoric to support its own existence. Tl;dr Stalinist supporters ARE idiots, but alot of the International Left have managed to move past Stalinism, and have been for a long time, (Hell look at the Secret Speach straight after Stalins death) Stalinism did create good things for russia, but most of them were structural applications rather than being caused by Stalin himself.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:05
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The LA Times had a decent profile of him:quote:Libyan professor rises to role of rebels' prime minister Seems the Misratans decided to finish off the battle of Sirte with a war crime quote:Libya: Apparent Execution of 53 Gaddafi Supporters
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Oct 24, 2011 13:26
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schadenfraud posted:Most of the effectively 'pro-Gadaffi,' hard left that I've met round and about here in England are actually Trotskyists. They're wrapped in a complete conundrum because they find themselves opposing a popular revolution simply because NATO intervened (at the request of the Libyans, mind you. Remember the Yemenis have asked NATO to stay away). So they've found themselves co-opting the language of the far right (in particular the American right) and are talking about terrorists and Al-Quaida and so on. It must be hard being a complete ideologue, living with all those contradictions in their head.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:36
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From twitter, accordiing to AJA early results in Tunisia show that Annahda (Islamist) is leading with 35 pc of vote; CPR (Liberal) with 15 pc ; DFLL (Socialist) with 12 pc.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:37
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Just heard this on NPR: banned crazy person Caro interviewed by NPR's Libya correspondent.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:38
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Grazing Occultation posted:Just heard this on NPR: banned crazy person Caro interviewed by NPR's Libya correspondent. HOLY gently caress ME RUNNING.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:45
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Ten years marksman experience! People think he might be a CIA agent!
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Oct 24, 2011 13:50
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Brown Moses posted:From twitter, accordiing to AJA early results in Tunisia show that Annahda (Islamist) is leading with 35 pc of vote; CPR (Liberal) with 15 pc ; DFLL (Socialist) with 12 pc. I am really glad that Moncef Marzouki might be getting second place, I have always had a very high opinion of him and his struggles for human rights so it's great to see that he's gonna have a big say in tunisia's future. also encouraging is that Ettakatol is third as well.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:53
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Brown Moses posted:Ten years marksman experience! People think he might be a CIA agent!  He's living his dream. His crazy, crazy, conspiracy-fueled dream. Now the CIA really is after him.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:55
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I see he's changed his story to being an aid worker, rather than a photojournalist. Did anyone catch the name of the journalist who interviewed him? Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 13:56
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Brown Moses posted:From twitter, accordiing to AJA early results in Tunisia show that Annahda (Islamist) is leading with 35 pc of vote; CPR (Liberal) with 15 pc ; DFLL (Socialist) with 12 pc. And of course, most of the western media is reporting 35% of the vote as "OMG MUSLIM EXTREMIST TAKEOVER"
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Oct 24, 2011 14:07
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el samayo grande posted:And of course, most of the western media is reporting 35% of the vote as "OMG MUSLIM EXTREMIST TAKEOVER" Democracy's all fun and games until a country elects a muslim conservative/socialist/ non-libertarian.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:09
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Brown Moses posted:I see he's changed his story to being an aid worker, rather than a photojournalist. It's right at the end of the report but if I tried to write it down I'd be wrong... way wrong.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:12
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You have to hand it to Caro, he might be literally crazy, but at least he had a (schizophrenic) dream and he loving did it.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:13
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Didnt he end up boxing someone from SA, I know he was outright crazy but its mental that a crazy person such as him was able to hide it to the extent he could get A. medical training B. Guns and equipment.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:17
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He doesn't have any training beyond self-taught or improvised field surgery.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:20
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d3c0y2 posted:Didnt he end up boxing someone from SA, I know he was outright crazy but its mental that a crazy person such as him was able to hide it to the extent he could get A. medical training B. Guns and equipment. No he got a ban for that mod challenge. It's on his SAclopedia entry.
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Oct 24, 2011 14:21
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