RPG Thread: SaGa Emeril Beyond

Fur20 · # ? Nov 6, 2011 08:08

TheOriginalEd posted:

I loved star ocean 2 too. (I even liked 3 and to a lesser extent 1 and 4) there just seems to be an ...anti star ocean sentiment on these boards at times.

See, the thing I really like about Star Ocean 2 is actually not how it is utterly breakable--though that's really fun--but because thanks to the translation. It's kind of sketchy, but thanks to this, it almost seems... sarcastic? It's almost like a parody of the "I take myself way too seriously" tone the later games got. The crappy translation makes the game better because it feels almost like the characters are self-aware of how ridiculous what they're doing is, and it's fun in an almost fourth wall kind of way.

Of course this was ruined in that remake when they played the game as straight and serious as they possibly could.

*Except any scene with Welch in it, where they played it as stupidly and embarassingly over-the-top hyperanime instead.

Fur20 fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Nov 6, 2011

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Vanilla Mint Ice · # ? Nov 6, 2011 10:03

StevenM posted:

The low party limitation of RPGs is probably a issue of game balance. As an exercise, try to imagine your favorite RPG with a higher party limit. And higher won't necessarily make it better or more modern; look at Xenoblade, a game that only allows you to have three party members. Having even an additional party member would completely throw the delicate balance out of whack.

StevenM · StevenM Nov 6, 2011

Vanilla Mint Ice posted:

The low party limitation of RPGs is probably a issue of game balance. As an exercise, try to imagine your favorite RPG with a higher party limit. And higher won't necessarily make it better or more modern; look at Xenoblade, a game that only allows you to have three party members. Having even an additional party member would completely throw the delicate balance out of whack.

All good points - the leveling, the setup of enemy encounters/types/levels, elemental matchups, all factor into the in-game fight between the player and the computer - too few or too many characters would drastically tip the scales (for better or worse, depending on your fondness of metagaming). I guess I'm just more annoyed when the developers give the player a small 'main' party but then throw extra factors into the equation that make said party a hindrance - whether that's things like deliberately overpowered enemies or even just fighting the environment or game system itself to progress.

Ultimately for me it boils down to (1) arbitrary roadblocks implemented by the devs to exacerbate the limited resources you have (forced fixed-slot subquests, useless useful characters being swapped in and out, forced solo-slot dungeons, hax enemies, etc) and (2) morbid curiosity at the thought of world maps being designed to be eroded by the marching feet of 25 men.

Latte Lottie · # ? Nov 6, 2011 10:51

Vanilla Mint Ice posted:

look at Xenoblade,

Everybody look at Xenoblade.

TheOriginalEd · # ? Nov 6, 2011 16:15

The White Dragon posted:

See, the thing I really like about Star Ocean 2 is actually not how it is utterly breakable--though that's really fun--but because thanks to the translation. It's kind of sketchy, but thanks to this, it almost seems... sarcastic? It's almost like a parody of the "I take myself way too seriously" tone the later games got. The crappy translation makes the game better because it feels almost like the characters are self-aware of how ridiculous what they're doing is, and it's fun in an almost fourth wall kind of way.

Ok, see that makes perfect sense. I had no idea they had actually changed that much in the remake and am glad I never bought into it.

dis astranagant · # ? Nov 6, 2011 16:21

TheOriginalEd posted:

Ok, see that makes perfect sense. I had no idea they had actually changed that much in the remake and am glad I never bought into it.

The remake also makes most killer moves pointless by giving everyone a 3 hit combo for mashing x.

The Unholy Ghost · # ? Nov 6, 2011 18:20

I'm having some kind of problem with Exit Fate. I downloaded it to my computer, but when I start it, nothing happens. Do I need to download an emulator or something...?

EDIT: Never mind...fixed it. I'm terrible with computers.

The Unholy Ghost fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 6, 2011

Paperhouse · # ? Nov 6, 2011 19:22

Vanilla Mint Ice posted:

The low party limitation of RPGs is probably a issue of game balance. As an exercise, try to imagine your favorite RPG with a higher party limit. And higher won't necessarily make it better or more modern; look at Xenoblade, a game that only allows you to have three party members. Having even an additional party member would completely throw the delicate balance out of whack.

The Suikoden games have 6 characters in battle, and while they're mostly pretty easy I don't think it would have been hard for the developers to increase the difficulty.

Vanilla Mint Ice · # ? Nov 6, 2011 19:34

4 is most definitely not the holy grail of party members, games like Baldur's Gate and NWN2's last expansion had 6 party members too. But the more party members you allow the player to have the challenge becomes making boss fights difficult and challenging without relying on aoe attacks or gimmick crap like 1 hit KO. Or you can do nothing of that sort and just have every fight be basically trivial like NWN2's last expansion.

There would also be a problem of micromanaging your party if it wasn't automated like in the above D&D games.

A well done party system (and game overall) imo was Last Remnant where you're allowed 24 party members but they were basically controlled as if they were 4 party members. This changed that illusion of 4 dudes and girls from humble beginnings managing to defeat an army and overthrow the god-king.

Conduit for Sale! · # ? Nov 6, 2011 19:41

The best part of BG's party system was being able to solo and get 6x the experience so you level up crazy fast.

Monk E · Monk E May 19, 2009

StevenM posted:

Another problem I could see with a big party would be keeping things moving swiftly. Every character added to the players party means another input and animation for the player so a game with a large number of PC�s in combat would run the risk of slowing to a crawl.

Conduit for Sale! · # ? Nov 6, 2011 20:02

Do you get any lightsabers before you build your original one in KOTOR 2? I'm playing a DS sentinel/future assassin on difficult, so my only options at the moment for weapons are using melee weapons that I can't hit with or use ranged weapons which suck.

Maybe I'll just set it to normal difficulty for now so I can hit with melee weapons. Difficult doesn't seem that difficult anyway, just more annoying.

Defiance Industries · # ? Nov 6, 2011 21:08

Conduit for Sale! posted:

Do you get any lightsabers before you build your original one in KOTOR 2? I'm playing a DS sentinel/future assassin on difficult, so my only options at the moment for weapons are using melee weapons that I can't hit with or use ranged weapons which suck.

Maybe I'll just set it to normal difficulty for now so I can hit with melee weapons. Difficult doesn't seem that difficult anyway, just more annoying.

No, you can't. There's a plot flag that gets tripped when you make your lightsaber that puts other sabers into the random loot tables. Before that they won't ever appear.

Space Bat · # ? Nov 6, 2011 22:02

StevenM posted:

StevenM · StevenM Nov 6, 2011

Space Bat posted:

It's no big surprise that I feel BroQuest will go the same way. If nothing else the shitstorm on 4chan will be intense, since that's apparently the project's birthplace/preferred advertising spot.

Vanilla Mint Ice · # ? Nov 6, 2011 23:15

I bet they're also using RPGMaker or something so there's also that for why they are limiting parties to four members.

StevenM · StevenM Nov 6, 2011

Vanilla Mint Ice posted:

I bet they're also using RPGMaker or something so there's also that for why they are limiting parties to four members.

I might be wrong but I believe they're building an engine from scratch for this project. I don't know if people are planning their own spinoffs though.

EDIT: Application page for coders. I'm not big on programming (I do most of my indie game work in MMF2 :v:

) but I'll assume that's a good few notches above RPGMaker. Can someone with actual expertise clarify on this?

EDITx2: Application page for spriters. Mmmmm, dig those template spritesheets.

zachol · # ? Nov 7, 2011 00:31

On the "only three party members" deal, how do people feel about the way later JRPGs typically handle it (where combat only involves 3 or 4 members, but there's an implication in cutscenes etc. that the rest of the team is still "sort of" there) versus what something like KOTOR or Mass Effect does (where you pick 2 other characters to come with you, and only those two can show up in cutscenes and interact with the PC)?

TheOriginalEd · # ? Nov 7, 2011 00:49

Id love to see them handle it that way in Chrono Cross. Fighting with 3 people, fine. Every cutscene has 50 people standing around.

To be fair more modern RPGS have the pcs you bring along have unique interactions to the events you bring them along for which you wouldnt get if you homogenized your party and brought every one.

I thought Wild Arms 2 handled it pretty well. 3 people were fighting, but the other three were in the back line chilling out. You could switch them in at any time. and when they werent actively fighting they were ACTUALLY resting up and healing. Not only that but a back attack from an enemy would hit your backline characters instead of the main crew.

Morpheus · # ? Nov 7, 2011 01:12

So far I've only seen the Dragon Quest series pull the fact that extra party members may not be able to all fight at once, but if the main party goes down, they can jump in and fight. Saved my rear end on the final boss fight in DQ5.

Oh, and Final Fantasy XII.

Conduit for Sale! · # ? Nov 7, 2011 02:43

Another KOTOR 2 question: do you have to stay full light/dark side to keep the mastery once you get it or can you suck up a few points of the opposite side without losing it?

Fun Times! · # ? Nov 7, 2011 03:31

Guys I just started playing Final Fantasy X, and it's the first Final Fantasy game I've ever played on console. Do I need to know anything?

Fur20 · # ? Nov 7, 2011 03:49

I know this is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but it's what I've seen for myself.

SMT Devil Survivor and, I assume, every related game in its series, truth told, is the worst writing I've ever seen in a game. Worse than FF13.

Not sure what folks see in it, to be honest. I mean, just to disclaim, I'm not offended or anything by its portrayal of religions because for one I'm not religious and two yes I do think if there was a god that he would be an enormous rear end in a top hat (bigger than goatse); it's just that it cannot shut the gently caress up about its retarded obsession. I know, I know, the game is "a game about summoning demons." But all it ever talked about--ALL IT EVER SAID--was BLAH BLAH BLAH GOD GOD GOD DEMONS DEMONS DEMONS GOD GOOD GOD BAD DEMONS GOOD DEMONS BAD HUMANITY THE GOVERNMENT OH LAWD THE GUBBMENT

I think the ultimate dealbreaker that really pissed me off toward the end of the game was this loving gem right here:
"BEL MEANS MASTER IT IS FROM ANCIENT AKKADIAN
AKKAD WAS BABYLONIA
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THE ETYMOLOGY OF THIS WORD BECAUSE WE ARE SUPER SERIOUS ABOUT HOW HISTORICALLY ACCURATE OUR GAME IS"
and right there, right there, I knew. I said, "Yeah no" and slugged my way through its final battles so I could say that I gave it the old college try and just so no one could say, "OH BUT THE ENDING!!!! :downs:

".

And now it is laid to rest forever because it's a piece of poo poo game and everyone who thinks it's "SMART" or "DEEP" or "INTELLECTUAL" or "CLEVER" probably hasn't read a book in the past decade. I've read picture books with better stories and more subtext and nuance than this piece of silicon poo poo. The series seems like the goddamn Ender's Game of video games: it's an enormous clusterfuck written by a batshit cockbeast who knows gently caress all about what he's writing about, but everyone loves it to pieces because they either ignore or misremember how uttterly idiotic it actually is.

It caters to teenagers who like to read Ayn Rand because it's "highly intellectual" and that line I paraphrased is the real indicator there, because any storyteller worth their salt wouldn't spout ridiculous lines like that. It caters to manchildren who still need this kind of story with piss-poor narration to make them feel smarter and more mature because it has "brilliant" and "edgy" themes and writing.

Why did I get it? Because, why else? I wanted a good, fun story. And that's what I was promised by absolutely everyone who has played an SMT/Persona game. It was neither good, nor fun. It was horrible, and it was loving darker than a juggalo funeral the entire way through. It played its cards straight as a fuckin' priest in a poker parlor. There was nothing entertaining, nothing reedeming whatsoever about this miserable thing. What people see in this series is far, far beyond me.

Fur20 fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Nov 7, 2011

DeathBySpoon · # ? Nov 7, 2011 04:10

I'm so glad to see someone who agrees- I picked it up for the same reason and man was I disappointed. I honestly just started laughing during Amane's last route when she shouts out :byodood:

HIS MEMORIES ARE FROM GENESIS! It was a sub-par SRPG with interesting gameplay ideas but awful atmosphere and inadequate execution. I really hope other SMT games are better, because this one (my first) seriously tainted my impressions of what I thought would be a pretty cool series.

Fun Times! posted:

Guys I just started playing Final Fantasy X, and it's the first Final Fantasy game I've ever played on console. Do I need to know anything?

Not that I can think of- FFX is a pretty good entry point. Just enjoy the ride!

DeathBySpoon fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Nov 7, 2011

Viash · Viash Mar 17, 2003

Nobody plays SMT games for the story. Well, nobody sane anyways. The gameplay is what makes them awesome. Granted, Devil Survivor is one of the weakest in that regard.

DOUBLE CLICK HERE · # ? Nov 7, 2011 04:19

Viash posted:

Nobody plays SMT games for the story. Well, nobody sane anyways. The gameplay is what makes them awesome. Granted, Devil Survivor is one of the weakest in that regard.

Are most of those games really long? I haven't played any of them, but I did buy the P3P for PSP, and a couple for the DS. (I'm really bad at playing my handheld games) But I know there's a good number for PS1/2. My only experience has been watching the Giant Bomb Endurance Run.

Fun Times! posted:

Guys I just started playing Final Fantasy X, and it's the first Final Fantasy game I've ever played on console. Do I need to know anything?

Hmm, I think it's pretty hard to screw yourself on this game. You can make the game more frustrating for yourself doing the obscure stuff like dodging 100(200?) lightning bolts and it's been reported people had trouble with the chocobo racing. But that's all pain you have to ask for.

Also I'm 20 hours deep into each FFXII and Suikoden 5. Now that I'm running around trying to get characters, I'm finding it a little frustrating leveling new guys up and then have them switched out; but it's still a pretty good game with very, very basic dungeons that still annoy me. Also Belcoot should have totally been the main character; I really want to replace the main cast with the guys I'm encountering.

FFXII there's not much to say, but I like everything it's doing. Changing up the levels with the weather, I'm encountering decent gear that aint swords, and the story is neat and very clear about when I can/want to engage it. Until then I'm still exploring and doing hunts, etc.

Kinda funny both these games deal with a Dawn shard/rune in the first half.

Progress will slow down now, though. I've managed to snag BF3 for nothing and it's so drat good.

DOUBLE CLICK HERE fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Nov 7, 2011

Genpei Turtle · # ? Nov 7, 2011 04:34

Viash posted:

Nobody plays SMT games for the story. Well, nobody sane anyways. The gameplay is what makes them awesome. Granted, Devil Survivor is one of the weakest in that regard.

Pretty much this. Hell, the series started out as a love letter to Go Nagai's horror manga--in other words lots of pointless pulpy, brutal violence and gore. It's not meant to be a pinnacle of story and never has been. They're great because running around killing gods with a party of other gods is both absurd and awesome at the same time.

Some hardcore fans of the series will debate this but by and large they are not sane. (Seriously, check out the cesspits that are the SMT LPs here if you want to gaze into that abyss)

Conduit for Sale! · # ? Nov 7, 2011 04:42

DOUBLE CLICK HERE posted:

Are most of those games really long? I haven't played any of them, but I did buy the P3P for PSP, and a couple for the DS. (I'm really bad at playing my handheld games) But I know there's a good number for PS1/2. My only experience has been watching the Giant Bomb Endurance Run.

P3/4 are ~80 hour games. I can't think of any other SMT games that are that long except Strange Journey. I'm playing through Persona 2 at the moment, and I'm little over halfway through at 15 hours in.

Genpei Turtle posted:

Pretty much this. Hell, the series started out as a love letter to Go Nagai's horror manga--in other words lots of pointless pulpy, brutal violence and gore. It's not meant to be a pinnacle of story and never has been. They're great because running around killing gods with a party of other gods is both absurd and awesome at the same time.

Some hardcore fans of the series will debate this but by and large they are not sane. (Seriously, check out the cesspits that are the SMT LPs here if you want to gaze into that abyss)

I dunno, I think Persona 2-4 had pretty good stories, and DDS1/2 seemed pretty decent from what little I played of them (a few hours of the former and ~10 of the latter), but I didn't enjoy them as much as the aforementioned Persona games. The mainline SMT games are definitely not about the story though.

I was underwhelmed by Devil Survivor almost instantly. I never made it past the first mission, I don't think.

e: by "pretty good stories", I don't mean they give A la recherche du temps perdu a run for its money, just that they were about as enjoyable and interesting as video games not called Planescape: Torment get.

Conduit for Sale! fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Nov 7, 2011

ImpAtom · ImpAtom May 24, 2007

Genpei Turtle posted:

Pretty much this. Hell, the series started out as a love letter to Go Nagai's horror manga--in other words lots of pointless pulpy, brutal violence and gore. It's not meant to be a pinnacle of story and never has been. They're great because running around killing gods with a party of other gods is both absurd and awesome at the same time.

Some hardcore fans of the series will debate this but by and large they are not sane. (Seriously, check out the cesspits that are the SMT LPs here if you want to gaze into that abyss)

Yeah, I play the SMT games for the gameplay and occasionally for some fun characters. Rarely for the story. Sometimes the story has interesting ideas but like most video game stories they're at best pulp. I think P2/P3 are the closest to being "good" but even then they're pulp.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Nov 7, 2011

iastudent · # ? Nov 7, 2011 04:56

I've been curious about something for awhile. Why hasn't Square-Enix (or any other long-standing JRPG dev, for that matter) tossed a bunch of their older titles or remakes like those of the older Final Fantasy games, which have been ported to pretty much anything you can think of at this point, onto PC?

I know portable systems have been the aim of RPG devs for awhile now but I'd have to imagine bringing some stuff onto PC, either in some kind of emulator or taking a portable/console remake and adjusting things to make it run on PC, and tossing it upon a digital distribution service like Steam would get people interested in them.

ImpAtom · ImpAtom May 24, 2007

iastudent posted:

I've been curious about something for awhile. Why hasn't Square-Enix (or any other long-standing JRPG dev, for that matter) tossed a bunch of their older titles or remakes like those of the older Final Fantasy games, which have been ported to pretty much anything you can think of at this point, onto PC?

I know portable systems have been the aim of RPG devs for awhile now but I'd have to imagine bringing some stuff onto PC, either in some kind of emulator or taking a portable/console remake and adjusting things to make it run on PC, and tossing it upon a digital distribution service like Steam would get people interested in them.

PCs are not a big thing in Japan. I imagine it isn't usually considered because of that.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Nov 7, 2011

Rockstar Massacre · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:00

The White Dragon posted:

Ridiculous hyperbole

I'm pretty sure you can dismiss any plot ever if you throw a few key words around in all caps.

More relevantly though, I think DS's appeal was entirely in the premise, which is pretty awesome. I'll agree that it disappointed the further in it got, though, when it became all about mythology and less about 'survival', but it's not nearly as bad as you're pretending. It's silly and uninspired at worst.

If you want some comfort about SMT though, the two recent Persona games have unique themes (explored in as anime a way as possible) despite the similar premise, and the 'main' series (SMT, SMT2, Nocturne/Lucifer's Call and Strange Journey) are extremely different games, writing wise, despite the fact that they all go through the same motions as far as plot goes. Same goes for Digital Devil Saga.

But to be honest, if you had such a strong reaction to DS I don't any of them will break that barrier for you. I get the impression you're looking for something very specific, and so venturing into SMT you should keep in mind that there's very little like it for it's fans out there so it gets venerated a lot.

iastudent · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:00

ImpAtom posted:

PCs are not a big thing in Japan.

Yeah I guess that makes sense. I was thinking of something like the Genesis games that have been ported to Steam but those were done through another studio and not Sega themselves. It'd probably have to be arranged in some fashion like that and I'd doubt Square or whoever would consider that being viable.

I think it's more akin to wishful thinking on my part to see more console RPGs get PC releases but I think that ship sailed along ago.

iastudent fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Nov 7, 2011

Conduit for Sale! · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:01

I don't know why anyone would play Persona 2 if not for the story/characters/setting. The battle system is by far the most boring of all the SMT games I've played.

Cityinthesea · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:01

the thing about Atlus, I suppose, is that they make good characters, not necessarily good stories (although I thought the story in DDS1 and 2 are pretty fantastic, looking at it now), I enjoyed Devil Survivor because I felt worried about doing the wrong thing and having, like, Gin dying or something. and it's definitely not as bad as you're suggesting, just some endings that are better than others.

Fur20 · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:42

Utgardaloki posted:

I'm pretty sure you can dismiss any plot ever if you throw a few key words around in all caps.

Except the words I put in allcaps were basically paraphrased straight from the script. The script literally says "Bel means master in Akkadian. Akkad is Babylon. Don't you realize how important this is?"

And it's like, no, I don't, because it's not. You're just being pretentious.

And as far as the characters who joined me, I never gave a poo poo about any of 'em. I got whiny "OH MY GOD I WAS TEASED IN HIGH SCHOOL" Keisuke and Super Anime Princess. The only character I might've liked who joined my party was Mari, and she joined on the last day. It was always "HEY DON'T CALL ME YOOHOO" and "HEY YOOHOO YOU LIKE ME CALLIN YOU THIS YET" and "I'M A PROGRAMMER I KNOW THE INTERNET" and "YOU'RE MAKING MY HEAD HURT WITH YOUR TECHNOBABBLE" and ugh the loving banter between those incompetents. Fun!

I'll give you that Gin was okay and I do wish that the businessman guy who wanted to see his son joined me, but everyone else in that game was a fuckin' self-absorbed nutjob, and not in the "there is an understandable compassionate angle you can consder them from, but the game shows that they are flawed in realistic ways" kind of way, either; their insanity is all played really straight and entirely forgivable as though they were well-adjusted people.

Fur20 fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Nov 7, 2011

The Black Stones · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:55

Yeah, Devil Survivors story isn't the best, but you're making it out to be the most lovely thing on the planet when it's not nearly as bad as poo poo like FFXIII or Star Ocean IV.

Rockstar Massacre · # ? Nov 7, 2011 05:55

The White Dragon posted:

Except the words I put in allcaps were basically paraphrased straight from the script. The script literally says "Bel means master in Akkadian. Akkad is Babylon. Don't you realize how important this is?"

And it's like, no, I don't, because it's not. You're just being pretentious.

The rest of your post is either correct or subjective, but the Babylon-Bel thing is important to the backstory, Babylon somewhat mythically being considered the cradle of civilization and whatever.

Jowy · # ? Nov 7, 2011 06:03

The White Dragon posted:

Except the words I put in allcaps were basically paraphrased straight from the script. The script literally says "Bel means master in Akkadian. Akkad is Babylon. Don't you realize how important this is?"

And it's like, no, I don't, because it's not. You're just being pretentious.

Actually, it literally doesn't say that at all, or at least, not in the needlessly hyperbolic way you're phrasing it.

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Nate RFB · # ? Nov 7, 2011 12:43

Devil Survivor had really, really good gameplay. poo poo was loving addictive as hell. It still has the best fusion system ever implemented by a SMT title and it's sad none have repeated it.

In terms of story most of the SMT games are OK (especially Persona 2 which owns owns owns), but if I had to say DS had one of the weaker ones. Didn't stop me from playing through it 7 times to get all the endings and skills, though.

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Nov 7, 2011