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Corrosion posted:It's really not a good game even if you remove that connection. Its relationship to CT just exacerbates/muddles due criticism. Will have to elaborate later, but I've heard that statement before and it just puts a huge hole in the game's plot. Chrono Cross can only occur if Trigger does. You're right, it's not a good game. It's an awesome game.
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Nov 11, 2011 05:31
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Jesto posted:What didn't you like about Chrono Cross's leveling system? Basically after every boss you beat / boss star you acquired, for the next 5-10 battles or so your characters would gain stats. Then they wouldn't gain anything more at all until the next boss. I kind of liked there being little incentive for grinding. The problem with this is unless you use every character for 5-10 battles after every boss fight you lose out on the stat gains you could have gotten for them when you get the next star. So if you want to try out a lesser used character later on, their stats will be severely underwhelming compared to the stats of the characters you had been using all along. Luckily stats dont matter all that much and some characters are so much more inherently powerful than others that the whole thing just becomes meaningless in the end anyway. Other than that another egregious design decision I can think of that CC made was with the element system. It was a huge pain in the rear end setting up your element grid then having some random story event come along and replace all your hard work with random elements. That being said a lot of the techs and elements were really drat cool. Lynx especially had some of my favorite attacks from any game ever. Glidehook, Feral Cats, and ForeverZero are just awesome.
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Nov 11, 2011 06:03
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Paperhouse posted:yeah, essentially that. For most of the game it's not particularly obvious or apparent that CC and CT are related - the game even takes place in a location that doesn't exist in CT. There are few recurring characters as well. It could easily take place in an entirely different universe with the backstory changed a little bit and shown more to the player. I'm not saying it couldn't in theory. That idea itself acknowledging there's a flaw in CC anyway. The connection to CT isn't as subtle as you're implying. The last 5 minutes of Cross really smashes that. It's cherry picking at how things could be presented, something that's always flimsy about "CC doesn't need CT to be told. " The problem is that it does need CT from a plot perspective, just can't say it enough.
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Nov 11, 2011 06:11
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Corrosion posted:"CC doesn't need CT to be told. " This isn't what people are saying though. People are saying "Take Chrono Cross, rework the plot a little to remove any CT references and make it a stand alone game instead" So in that sense, it would no longer need CT because its plot would not rely on it.
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Nov 11, 2011 06:21
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The Black Stones posted:This isn't what people are saying though. People are saying "Take Chrono Cross, rework the plot a little to remove any CT references and make it a stand alone game instead" I know that's what they're doing, the problem is the implication is you don't need to make modifications, just remove these supposedly subtle CT references for the story to make sense. You can't remove the elements without modifying things, that's the problem. Because folks implied otherwise to start out, or at least that these changes could be minor. They wouldn't be minor at all in relation to pretending CT magically isn't why CC exists. Paperhouse posted:well then forget the plot for the most part, because you wouldn't have to change or remove much at all to have them be unrelated games. Because this isn't really true. Bromethius Chip. Shhala Adolescent Veal... Just, the story having to be modified is admitting there's one problem amongst a bunch of others I think would be interesting to discuss. Anyone want to explain why the pacing is good now? I have a problem with that when the game plot dumps you before the last boss fight amongst other things. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 07:08
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Corrosion is right, the current plot of Chrono Cross DOES need significant changes to make it work, but here is what I think is dividing people's opinions on whether the plot changes necessary to separate it from Chrono Trigger are large or small - the "real" plot of Chrono Cross, that is, the one involving Schala and the Time Devourer, really has no emotional impact on many players for the vast majority of the game. The whole thing with alternate dimensions and how people's lives can turn out differently based on one decision, Serge's childhood, the idea of fate controlling you to protect you from your own bad decisions, the whole thing about the Masamune being a sword capable of corrupting people, these are all really interesting plot ideas. The thing is, they don't need any of that Death Note-like counter-plan bullshit thrown at you at the end to work in the game. So yeah, the whole game revolves around Schala and Kid in retrospect, so taking that out is a huge change. But it's only a huge change to people like Masato Kato who apparently think grandiose world-destroying plans need to be in the story. But as many people here have already demonstrated, they really don't care about that. They care about the parts of the story that would have some kind of meaningful impact on the characters and the player - i.e. the many things that could remain. So yeah, in order for Chrono Cross to stand on its own, it needs to shed that whole CT plotline connection which is on paper a big part of the story, but in reality is not something many people really care about and thus feel is trivial. I hate to play the "Everyone is right!" card but in this case it's just a matter of definitions. For the record I think Chrono Cross is a very interesting game - not a good game, per say, but interesting! I love the fact that magic has a "field effect" and that it has a significant impact on damage. I like that summons are done through manipulating this field effect to kind of snowball yourself into a better offensive and defensive position and deliver a big attack. I like that bosses encourage use of this to protect yourself (I like traps, too!), and invite you to consider the risk vs reward of using opposite-element characters. Those are all great ideas, it's just that they're linked to the element system, which feels like a waste when it requires all this effort to manage the element grid and in the end do about as much damage as Serge with the Mastermune. In my opinion, to throw out Chrono Cross's entire magic system is to throw out the baby with the bath water. The core concept of elements is good, it's just that the application with regards to the part of the game actually referred to as "elements" is not. Then there's the plot, which I think has a great core idea. Playing with the idea of fate and different decisions kind of follows threads created in Chrono Trigger but not really explored as fully as they could be, because they weren't the focus of that game's story. That's great. What isn't great is expending the resources and time to take all these different characters who exemplify that idea and make them into playable party members. When I read that they excluded Magus (Other than as Guile of course) because of the large cast of characters I just about slapped my forehead. According to that interview the large cast is one of the first things they decided on, but they neglected to talk about why they did that from a game design or plot standpoint. As it is, Chrono Cross's cast, to me, is just a detriment to the game. It's not even supported by context as it is in, say, Suikoden. Anyway there's my two cents on Chrono Cross. Lots of cool design decisions married to really bad ones. Edit: What's really dumb is CT DS's new ending that even more heavily implies that Guile is Magus (Especially in combination with that letter you read late in CC). So they consider having Magus in the game, then decide to rewrite him into a different character to save themselves the trouble of integrating him into the story in a way that gives him enough attention. Then they go and drop a hint about Magus becoming Guile again. Come on. Nickoten fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 07:37
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To say nothing of "Oh poo poo, guys! Dalton is going to gently caress us over by throwing Porre at us! Let's watch him say this plan like a Scooby Doo villain on crack and then do nothing as he leaves!" I love the DS port with it's new script and stuff, but they really should have not bothered to link Cross to it, it just feels like Kato is going "Now this stuff almost everybody hates is really cannon now. Thanks for running through the EX dungeon, jackass! ha-haha-ha-haha-haha!"
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Nov 11, 2011 08:04
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I agree with that Nick save for the fact that the Masamune originated from CT as well. It'd seem like a worthless filler plot thread anyway. I actually liked the way Lynx is basically a manipulative parasite who ends up completely ruining the Acacia Dragoons just by meeting them. "If only I'd never met you" That thread is CC original and more interesting to me than Dario going insane with others as a collective plot device that has links to CT ending poorly, as well as something that could be better as Chrono Cross only material. The Masamune isn't interesting to me so much as the dramatic parallel between Lynx and a group of people. The ideas fascinate me, but gently caress it when its either bare or at the expense of CT. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 09:29
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Chrono Cross definitely fits into the "almost one of the greats but has a few too many flaws" box for me. The links to Trigger don't actually bother me that much, it's more the way that a lot of it is clunkily presented to you in a couple of exposition dumps. It just makes the game feel a bit confused with bits of plot tacked on and moved about. Apart from that and the ridiculous amount of pointless characters, it ticks most of the other boxes: Follows some interesting themes, fantastic art direction and the soundtrack particularly is up there with the best, great battle system, a good attempt at a levelling system which discourages grinding. I fancy replaying it again now, I don't think I've actually completed it since my original playthrough. I think last time I got to Miguel. That is one awesome fight, but it's hard anyway even without trying to concentrate through a cloud of this is awesomeness.
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Nov 11, 2011 10:41
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Is this the part where I say Chrono Cross was amazing and a top 5 JRPG for the PSX? Because Chrono Cross was amazing and a top 5 JRPG for the PSX.
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Nov 11, 2011 13:40
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Phew, now that I don't have to type on a mobile: Yeah, I really feel that Chrono Cross' underlying fault is that there's a lot of great moments in the game, but it all gets hammered by some design blunder made by the team. I have a hard time empathizing with many of the characters because they simply don't matter. Many of them are just there to be there, the original intent of Masato Kato's team being that you could just recruit anyone you talked to and that eventually turned into just recruiting 40+ party members. Many of those party members having little to do with many of the events in the game. Many of the scenarios can sometimes be great in spite of this blunder, like the Dead Sea for instance. I just have a hard time actually caring about much of the game as I play it. I want characters to anchor on to, but instead the game sort of treats them like some horrible game of Pokemon. My admitted affinity for Chrono Trigger only makes these issues even worse, as I get to understand and then ask "Why" on a lot of the background motivations. I'm definitely not of the camp that if we just "remove the CT" from the game that things will be all better because, outside of bias, that's just loving stupid to me. The whole game's reason for being was to address one lingering plot thread from Chrono Trigger. The ho hum way that Kato never goes whole hog in linking both games just adds insult to injury. Instead of some lovely Scooby Doo explanation and alternate ending in the DS version of Chrono Trigger, something other posters have pointed out, I really would rather him either revisit Chrono Cross and possibly remedy the flaws in that game... or just see him finally give his spin on Chrono Trigger in a style not akin to a lovely rom hack. While I would say now that I'm apt to believe that I'd still like Yuji Hori and the Dream Project's vision of CT, I'm still curious as to what Kato's vision of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross is beyond the paper theory. Beyond my personal bias, I just have memories of wanting certain parts of Chrono Cross to be over while being fairly entertained by others. The Dead Sea was great, but I remember falling asleep playing the game during Marbule. I also absolutely loathe the SS Zelbess and haunted ship. Fargo and his family's particular plot arc were such a huge waste of time, and I hated their character design and motivations in relation to the main plot arc. I didn't give a poo poo about them, and overall the romp into their little lives was a device to get a boat or some poo poo. I think the flaw pointed out about the level up system really made me hate not being able to recruit the characters I did want and the stupid dialogue swap system made me hate that many characters were just place holders in the overall story. I don't think the element system is that great, but Nickoten already did a great job of stating why. I think Chrono Cross is up there in the top games that could have been great, for sure. It's just not a good game. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 16:58
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You could always just make your party up of characters who were more immediately relevant to the plot (Serge, Kid, Glenn, Karsh, Fargo). I never felt like characterization was a problem because there was still a fairly strong core (and more than anything else, it was Serge and Kid's story and theirs alone) and all of the other million other recruitable characters were just extra fluff you didn't actually have to bother with if you didn't want to. For my part I don't think I ever had anyone else besides Serge, Kid, Lynx, Harle, Norris, Glenn, Fargo, Karsh, or Guile unless the plot demanded I take someone else.
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Nov 11, 2011 17:15
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Exactly. And if you want to use someone weird and silly, you can do that too! Welcome aboard, Starky! I think Chrono Cross is pretty good, but not great. There's a lot of stuff that makes it seem like they cheaped out, such as Nikki's extremely lacklustre concert. Everyone talking about how it was reviled at the time of its launch must be living in another universe though, the hype was incredible and the praise universal. Noted (at the time) RPG guy Andrew Vestal gave it a 10 out of 10!
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Nov 11, 2011 17:21
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Wendell posted:Everyone talking about how it was reviled at the time of its launch must be living in another universe though, the hype was incredible and the praise universal. Noted (at the time) RPG guy Andrew Vestal gave it a 10 out of 10! The hate I remember for the game was not from the internet or magazines or whatnot, it was from friends and acquaintances that played the game and were incredibly disappointed it wasn't CT2. The hype was actually the problem - they went into it expecting something awesome and the reality let them down. After the game had been out a year or so, I remember the (admittedly anecdotal) consensus being "Fun at times but overall a missed opportunity."
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Nov 11, 2011 18:18
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Wendell posted:Noted (at the time) RPG guy Andrew Vestal  RIP GIA
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Nov 11, 2011 18:20
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Conduit for Sale! posted:
Better days.
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Nov 11, 2011 18:58
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Nate RFB posted:You could always just make your party up of characters who were more immediately relevant to the plot (Serge, Kid, Glenn, Karsh, Fargo). I never felt like characterization was a problem because there was still a fairly strong core (and more than anything else, it was Serge and Kid's story and theirs alone) and all of the other million other recruitable characters were just extra fluff you didn't actually have to bother with if you didn't want to. For my part I don't think I ever had anyone else besides Serge, Kid, Lynx, Harle, Norris, Glenn, Fargo, Karsh, or Guile unless the plot demanded I take someone else. It's kind of a problem when the majority of the cast is fluff. Why spend the time making those characters when those resources can go towards, I dunno, making Magus a character again, for example? The problem is we have a very obvious example of the cast hindering the game in other ways, and there's no real logic to why you'd want to take a lot of them with you. I have no problem with silly or joke characters, but I do have a problem with having such a large cast of characters that are really just not interesting or relevant. quote:
That was like one guy. Most of us remember the praise and were potentially misled by it. Hell I remember EGM giving it almost straight 10s.
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Nov 11, 2011 19:15
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I think FFX is becoming one of my favorite games. It's been a long time since there's been a game that I think about in the middle of the day and can't wait to get home and play.
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Nov 11, 2011 19:45
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Nickoten posted:That was like one guy. Most of us remember the praise and were potentially misled by it. Hell I remember EGM giving it almost straight 10s. The standards for what makes a game a 10 were fairly different in the days of PS1 RPGs, and on top of that, reviewers don't usually get to finish a game, and it's not for a while that the game starts falling apart. Anyway, if I were to redo the cast, I'd probably pare it down to twelve (thirteen, counting Lynx) with Harle as the secret character you have to do that NG+ thing to get. Two for each innate. White, Green, Black and Yellow are easy, but hell if I can think of a single red or blue character besides Kid and Fargo. That way maybe the cast could actually get some unique dialogue and scenes and stuff?
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Nov 11, 2011 19:53
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Yeah, that sliding scale about standards now to standards then is pretty much garbage. If the game is flawed for reasons now, it was flawed for those same reasons back then. That's why reviewers created such a misleading perception about Chrono Cross in the first place. Unless you were pointing that out more to illustrate why, I don't think "standards were different back then" makes it any less of a case of those reviewers being wrong about some stuff.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:37
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Chrono Cross had (at the time) beautiful graphics and a still-fantastic soundtrack. If you need more reason than that for why it got good reviews I donno what to say.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:48
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ImpAtom posted:Chrono Cross had (at the time) beautiful graphics and a still-fantastic soundtrack. If you need more reason than that for why it got good reviews I donno what to say. I'm not pointing out that I don't get why the game got good reviews, I'm pointing out that those reviews aren't suddenly okay or excused from being misleading. It's a caveat off Nickoten's reply. Those reviews were misleading. I'm not confused as to why, I'm saying "reviewers were ignorant" doesn't cease to make their reviews misleading.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:52
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Fun Times! posted:I think FFX is becoming one of my favorite games. It's been a long time since there's been a game that I think about in the middle of the day and can't wait to get home and play. I put 30 hours into that game within a 48 hour period. That's how much I loved that game.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:55
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Defiance Industries posted:The standards for what makes a game a 10 were fairly different in the days of PS1 RPGs, and on top of that, reviewers don't usually get to finish a game, and it's not for a while that the game starts falling apart. It's not that standards were any different. It's that everything put out by Square back then received excellent reviews, regardless if the game was great or a piece of poo poo. Even Final Fantasy 8 got great reviews. It has a 89% at gamerankings. Which is unbelievable considering from what I've seen over the past 13 years, only 1 out of about every 50 RPG fans seem to like it.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:59
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Super Ninja Fish posted:It's not that standards were any different. It's that everything put out by Square back then received excellent reviews, regardless if the game was great or a piece of poo poo. Even Final Fantasy 8 got great reviews. It has a 89% at gamerankings. Which is unbelievable considering from what I've seen over the past 13 years, only 1 out of about every 50 RPG fans seem to like it. I dunno, I seem to remember Final Fantasy 8 being fairly well received by gamers at the time; I seemed to be the only one that didn't like it amongst the people I knew. Most people online seemed to like it too; I think standards might have been lower, but there was a stupid amount of Square-worship back then that could have been coloring things. Interestingly enough, the same thing with review inflation of Square games happened in Japan too during the PS1 era. Heinous pieces of poo poo too terrible to even think of bringing overseas like Cyber Org and Another Mind still did pretty well in the reviews.
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Nov 12, 2011 06:01
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Genpei Turtle posted:I dunno, I seem to remember Final Fantasy 8 being fairly well received by gamers at the time; I seemed to be the only one that didn't like it amongst the people I knew. Most people online seemed to like it too; I think standards might have been lower, but there was a stupid amount of Square-worship back then that could have been coloring things. Well I remember the forums on AOL when the game came out. Threads about the game would get hundreds of responses, all of them with 1 or 2 people defending the game against the entire forum. It seemed to be the same way on every forum I visited. With Chrono Cross, I don't remember many people at all ever coming to it's support. It's genuinely sad to go back and look at threads right when the game came out. I did that a few years ago when I was replaying it for the sake of curiosity. I felt bad for them all over again. Everyone was so hyped, so convinced it was going to be the best thing ever. At first, no one even wanted to admit there was anything wrong with it. Then slowly within a few days, everyone begrudgingly started to come to the realization that Chrono Cross was a bad game. The disappointment was immense. I wonder what Japanese gamers thought about Chrono Cross getting a near perfect score in Famitsu. There's no love for CC in Japan. http://gonintendo.com/?p=1241 Here's the top 100 games of all time by Famitsu readers. 90% of them are RPGs but Chrono Cross is no where to be found. some bust on that guy fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 06:39
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I posted a lot on RPGamer back then, and from what I remember, most people on there liked CC. Jeremy Parish posted there and he loved it. I could be wrong though, my memory sucks. I still find it strange that anybody would call Chrono Cross a bad game. It has flaws, sure, but anybody who thinks it's a bad game is seeing the game in a much different light than I am. But I hadn't beaten Chrono Trigger when I first played CC. I'm not sure I had even played more than a few hours. e: wow, FFX is #1 on that list of Famitsu readers' favorite games, above FFVII. That's pretty cool; I think FFX is my favorite FF game as well. Also, FFVI is the lowest ranked FF game of FFIII-FFX. I wonder why it's so much more beloved here in the US. Conduit for Sale! fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 06:47
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In terms of mechanics, I actually like Final Fantasy 8. I think it's a decent RPG. As far as reviews go, while RPGs in general were the flavor of the moment back then, I still think a lot of problems illustrated with how some reviewed Chrono Cross still carry over to this day. At the beginning of the game (CC), there's clearly more structure to the game before issues later in the game arise that would require some form of critical insight. I rarely ever pay attention to reviews of RPGs where the rule of thumb is that a fraction of the game be experienced, but really that's just a weakness of reviews when approaching the genre. I'd just as soon they get more time on any game than put out something incredibly misleading. As an aside, before the Dalton subplot was really unveiled, I actually rationalized in a gag post that Porre razed Guardia because you gave the Mayor's wife some jerky. Having played CT before Cross definitely had me looking for reasons as to what went down in the background.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:12
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Chrono Cross has an average user rating of 8.5, and a user review average of 7.5, so it's not as hated by the fans as you guys seem to think it is. Anyway, does anyone know what Machi is? It's the Famitsu readers' #5 favorite game of all time, and I've never heard of it. e: I like FF8 as well, if only forLionheart. Lionheart owned. Also I kinda like that Square attempted to make an RPG that's essentially a love story, even if it wasn't the most believable love story.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:22
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I'd like FF8 but Christ is everyone and everything in that game ether insufferable or Laguna.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:59
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FFVIII would've been the best RPG of all time if Laguna et al were the main cast I did like Quistis and Selphie though. Actually, I liked everyone except Squall and Rinoa.
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Nov 12, 2011 08:13
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Has anyone else picked up Fate/Extra for the PSP? I'm liking it so far.
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Nov 12, 2011 08:51
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The Black Stones posted:Has anyone else picked up Fate/Extra for the PSP? I'm liking it so far. I finished it a few days ago. I thought it was really awesome. The combat system was really neat and at least for me never got old. I'm hoping it sells well enough that the sequel gets a release here. I'd get the JP version but then I wouldn't be able to transfer my clear data  e: The artbook that came with the limited edition sure was...Something though. I usually keep things like that out but I think I'll be keeping that one tucked into the box. Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 08:58
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I didn't mind Seifer or much of the cast outside of the two lovebirds, Zell, and Selphie. Really though, I just liked how the game lets you break it while still maintaining a decent structure and challenge. I think it's very technically strong, which makes up for an otherwise weak plot. At least there were characters to analyze and form slightly more complex opinions about than "I'm a Voodoo Doll." Plus the game had Gilgamesh, a good plus.
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Nov 12, 2011 09:05
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Were there any good RPGs for the Gamecube besides Tales of Symphonia, Baten Kaitos, Skies of Arcadia and Paper Mario?
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Nov 12, 2011 11:10
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Conduit for Sale! posted:Were there any good RPGs for the Gamecube besides Tales of Symphonia, Baten Kaitos, Skies of Arcadia and Paper Mario? Not unless you had one to three good buddies with GBAs, no. Phantasy Star Online, maybe?
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Nov 12, 2011 11:50
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Baten Kaitos Origins. Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (I heard it was good, never played). Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles (What the white dragon is referring to). LotR: The Third Age (A FFX knockoff). Some people like the pokemon games (Colosseum and XD: Gale of Darkness), but I wouldn't recommend them unless you're a fan. And that's pretty much it. Really, the whole list is shamefully short.
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Nov 12, 2011 12:29
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Conduit for Sale! posted:Were there any good RPGs for the Gamecube besides Tales of Symphonia, Baten Kaitos, Skies of Arcadia and Paper Mario? I tried and tried. Nothing. Sorry! At least all of those are great games.
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Nov 12, 2011 12:56
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Conduit for Sale! posted:FFVIII would've been the best RPG of all time if Laguna et al were the main cast I hated FF8 but would play a spinoff with Laguna & co. in a heartbeat.
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Nov 12, 2011 13:44
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Conduit for Sale! posted:Were there any good RPGs for the Gamecube besides Tales of Symphonia, Baten Kaitos, Skies of Arcadia and Paper Mario? Summoner: Goddess Reborn was pretty overlooked and not a short game, but it really came off as one that you needed a buddy to help with in co-op mode as the AI to manage your party was tricky as best. Pretty much nothing like it on the system though, so I say give it a whirl/look into it if you find it at a good price.
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Nov 12, 2011 14:41
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