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HighClassSwankyTime posted:Is German pornography really as gross as people say or is that just an internet myth? If you want to know more about the german fascination with poo poo, read this: http://www.haustechnikdialog.de/Forum/t/19886/Grosse-Haufen
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Nov 24, 2011 12:46
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HighClassSwankyTime posted:Is German pornography really as gross as people say or is that just an internet myth? I can't comment on that, but I can say that German swearwords are curiously fixated on feces and such, opposed to the English obsession with sexual swears.
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Nov 24, 2011 12:58
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Former defense minister dodges prosecution with charitable donation If you're gonna condemn both zu Guttenberg and the public prosecutor's office so broadly, you might want to elaborate a little. Do you find the verdict to be unjust, do you understand the prosecutor's office to be biased towards zu Guttenberg, why do you feel that, in our lord's year 2011, them drat nobles still be gettin' off easy, etc. On an unrelated matter, "Döner-Morde" has been nominated as "Unwort des Jahres", so there's that.
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Nov 24, 2011 13:28
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Former defense minister dodges prosecution with charitable donation I thought German noble titles were abolished after 1918...?
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Nov 24, 2011 13:38
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HighClassSwankyTime posted:I thought German noble titles were abolished after 1918...? They are. However that doesn't change their names. Also most of them are still rich and even for those that aren't the 'von und zu' has the same standing as a Dr. . But in this case it's less of a nobility thing anyway and has more to do with the fact that he's a former federal minister and also quite rich
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Nov 24, 2011 13:46
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Stuhlmajor posted:If you're gonna condemn both zu Guttenberg and the public prosecutor's office so broadly, you might want to elaborate a little. Do you find the verdict to be unjust, do you understand the prosecutor's office to be biased towards zu Guttenberg, why do you feel that, in our lord's year 2011, them drat nobles still be gettin' off easy, etc. Of course they are biased and the verdict is unjust. They are probably all in the same party. This is Bavaria after all. And 20000€ is small change for a rich bastard like him. And being a noble also helps a ton. People still admire them and think they are morally superior to the common people. Edit: I just want to remind people: The public prosecutor's office was very hesitant to even start investigations. Without public pressure they wouldn't have acted at all. And his university tried to protect him for too long, too. The university of Bayreuth has been a joke in the Geman academic world since then. Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 14:10
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Of course they are biased and the verdict is unjust. They are probably all in the same party. This is Bavaria after all. And 20000€ is small change for a rich bastard like him. And being a noble also helps a ton. People still admire them and think they are morally superior to the common people. Wasn't it the university of Bayreuth that for the longest time had the reputation that students could buy their doctorate there? (or maybe it was Passau)
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Nov 24, 2011 15:25
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Sereri posted:They are. However that doesn't change their names. Also most of them are still rich and even for those that aren't the 'von und zu' has the same standing as a Dr. . But in this case it's less of a nobility thing anyway and has more to do with the fact that he's a former federal minister and also quite rich Well, getting an additional Dr. wouldn't hurt, Herr von und zu Gutenberg thought.
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Nov 24, 2011 15:35
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ZeitGeits posted:Wasn't it the university of Bayreuth that for the longest time had the reputation that students could buy their doctorate there? (or maybe it was Passau) There were rumors about Bayreuth, yes. But after Guttenberg it's on a totally different level now.
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Nov 24, 2011 15:42
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Hungry Gerbil posted:
Yeah this was the funniest thing about it. They knew he plagiarized, but tried to cover it up.
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Nov 24, 2011 16:05
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I have absolutely no trouble believing the panel at the university of bayreuth rubberstamped his thesis, but it's not because he was "noble". He was the loving up-and-coming political golden boy back then and to even doubt someone like him could not come up with a genuine, unplagiarized thesis was probably considered blasphemous. That said, penal ramifications for first-offenders that were charged with plagiarism are routinely minute at most and seeing legal diversion applied is by no means out of the ordinary. Ironically, the people that are claiming that nobility in this case is being treated as "more equal than others" are also demanding that zu Guttenberg's case should be treated with more prejudice than other cases. The only thing that I find unjust in this case is that he blatantly misappropriated funds allocated to the ministry of defense in the preparation of his thesis and noone is even mentioning this anymore whilst focusing on trivial bullshit.
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Nov 24, 2011 17:16
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It's separate issues: 1) More equal than others refers to his party membership and political office, which have both helped him massively. (See: the unconditional and uncritical support of chancellor Merkel, the support by Union sympathizing media) 2) Being noble helped and still helps him to keep his positive public image. He is morally and genetically superior after all. (See: Despite being lying, criminal scum without doubt, he was still the most popular German politician 10 days after his resignation from his political offices.) 3) He was a politician with a political office and used his title in this position, of course he should punished more harshly for that. (See: The proportion of 'academics' in the German political class is pretty high, and thus being a 'Dr.' is quite a helpful factor for determining political success. You could call it a must have.) 4) Having to pay only 20,000 € is highly unjust, too. The amount you have to pay is usually adjusted according to your wealth and what you earn. I don't think this is the case here. It's disgusting, especially because he is likely to be one of our future chancellors. And you are right, embezzlement of tax money should be focused on more. But people don't care about this, they'll still vote for crooks, scammers and liars like him. Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 17:27
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^^^ While he might try I doubt he has any real chance to become chancellor in the next 20 years, the general public I hope he is burned for the rest of his political career even if he somehow manages to turn public opinion, I'm sure it's going to get rather ugly if he ever speaks in the Bundestag again. That they dropped the charges is not that unusual and the 20000€ while not much is at least something. What actually bothers me is the claim of the prosecution that there is no public interest in charging him (yeah, who ever heard of that guy?) and that the people he plagiarized from haven't had an monetary loss (which is a bullshit reasoning on so many levels I can't even begin to describe it). Using him to make a statement for the importance of copyright law isn't something we should do, so apart from the public reasoning (which they couldn't have worded any other way) I can live with it. Note that there is no verdict and the message of them dropping the charges is "We are not 100% sure we can prove it or we don't care enough but it's not unlikely that you are guilty", having another disgusting media poo poo storm like we had in the Kachelman trial isn't really something that helps anybody. Additional charges like embezzlement are pretty unlikely to come to any fruition (they don't really apply) so don't hold your breath on that one. tl;dr: gently caress that guy, while he might be a disgrace to the academic and political world he wasn't stupid enough to actually get himself in serious legal trouble but hopefully he provided enough ammunition to be shot down should he ever pursue any meaningful position in german politics. hankor fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 19:43
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The entire university board should be fired.
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Nov 24, 2011 19:47
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Perjury is a crime. Usually you have to vow that your thesis is your own work and usually Guttenberg would have committed not only a copyright violation but also perjury. But not at this university. You don't need to make an oath there. Nope. Edit: Perjury is at least one year of prison! Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 20:17
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Perjury is a crime. Usually you have to vow that your thesis is your own work and usually Guttenberg would have committed not only a copyright violation but also perjury. But not at this university. You don't need to make an oath there. Nope. It doesn't apply here, you could make a very creative case of false declarations on oath which isn't a crime.
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Nov 24, 2011 20:44
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hankor posted:It doesn't apply here, you could make a very creative case of false declarations on oath which isn't a crime. Wikipedia 'Dissertation' posted:Die Dissertationsschrift muss oft eine eidesstattliche Erklärung darüber enthalten, dass sie auf selbständiger Arbeit beruht.[4] Es ist dennoch vorgekommen, dass die Leistung gegen Erbringung eines Honorars ganz oder teilweise von einem „Ghostwriter“ erbracht wurde. Neben dem Zurückweisen der Arbeit oder dem nachträglichen Aberkennen der Doktorwürde sind bei Bekanntwerden solchen Vorgehens auch zivil- oder strafrechtliche Konsequenzen möglich. Wikipedia 'Versicherung an Eides statt' posted:Die Versicherung an Eides statt oder eidesstattliche Versicherung (kurz „E.V.“ oder „EV“) ist im deutschen Recht eine besondere Beteuerung, mit der derjenige, der diese Versicherung abgibt, bekräftigt, dass eine bestimmte Erklärung der Wahrheit entspricht. Besondere Rechtsbedeutung erlangt die Versicherung an Eides statt dadurch, dass nach § 156 Strafgesetzbuch (StGB) die Abgabe einer unwahren eidesstattlichen Versicherung eine Straftat darstellt. Gibt jemand also eine eidesstattliche Versicherung ab und lügt dabei, macht er sich strafbar. This is not the case in Bayreuth, but you pretty often have to sign an affidavit in most other universities. Why is this not the case in Bayreuth? Protection of their customers of course. Edit: An example from the university of Magdeburg http://diglib.uni-magdeburg.de/abgabe/Formbl.htm quote:Ich erkläre hiermit an Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 20:53
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Hungry Gerbil posted:This is not the case in Bayreuth, but you pretty often have to sign an affidavit in most other universities. Why is this not the case in Bayreuth? Protection of their customers of course. I'm aware of that and it's a lovely practice to not demand it. Have a look at 154 StGB which is Perjury, it carries a minimum sentence of 1 year which makes it a crime. 156 StGB which could have applied but carries no minimum sentence is a misdemeanor. This is relevant because the former would go on his criminal record.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:04
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Ah, ok. I see. gently caress Guttenberg and gently caress the university of Bayreuth nonetheless.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:13
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Certainly Guttenberg wasn't the first person to be caught with a plagiarized thesis? What kind of sentence do people usually recieve for something like that? Also, I can't really imagine why the guy would ever want to make a comeback. It's probably only barely possible to feel any more shame than he must have felt during this whole ordeal, and had I been in his position that would have turned me off politics for good. Shrugging off the nation of Germany and loving off to America seems like a far more comprehensible course of action to me, is all. Ententod fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 21:16
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Fallen German conservative star ready for comeback http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/24/germany-conservatives-guttenberg-idUSL5E7MO26620111124 quote:A call-in poll by all-news network N-TV said 71 percent would welcome a Guttenberg to return to German politics. Every country has the government it deserves. - Joseph Marie de Maistre
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Nov 24, 2011 21:24
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Fallen German conservative star ready for comeback I think Die Linke once polled at 60% at Kabel 1 Teletext.  Edit: Oh, but there he does actually say he wants to come back. What a tool. Ententod fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 21:28
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Who the hell still uses videotext?
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Nov 24, 2011 21:30
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elwood posted:Who the hell still uses videotext? Bored people?
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Nov 24, 2011 21:31
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^^^ The sex-adds are hilarious  Ententod posted:Certainly Guttenberg wasn't the first person to be caught with a plagiarized thesis? What kind of sentence do people usually recieve for something like that? Usually the charges are dropped and some money is paid to a charity , a plagiarized thesis (as well as pirating stuff in general) is seen as a "Kavaliersdelikt" in the eye of the general public so nobody sees the need to enforce it. A couple of years back nobody cared about corruption or tax evasion so that wasn't harshly enforced either. Ententod posted:Shrugging off the nation of Germany and loving off to America seems like a far more comprehensible course of action to me, is all. I'd rather take cases like this than deal with poo poo like if politicians have the right sexuality, religion or if they are unfaithful to their spouse or not.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:35
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Well, alright. n-tv is not exactly the biggest TV station in Germany. I'm sure there will be more polls in the next couple days. We'll see.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:36
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hankor posted:I'd rather take cases like this than deal with poo poo like if politicians have the right sexuality, religion or if they are unfaithful to their spouse or not. I wasn't suggesting he should go into politics over there, I just thought, you know, I'd rather live somewhere I'm not publicly known as a liar.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:56
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I bet he is already regretting his explanation for why he All any opposing candidate has to ask is if he thinks being a minister/chancellor would be less stressful than writing a thesis, or if he wants to divorce his wife  ?
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Nov 25, 2011 02:11
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Someone who lies so easily and for such vain reasons cannot be trusted
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Nov 25, 2011 02:18
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Every country has the government it deserves. (Unless it's the Greek or all the other people that the majority here is sympathetic to. Then those countries are suddenly not democracies anymore and the population could have never seen things coming.) I actually agree with this saying, but I don't see where this guy did anything that warrants the death penalty or similar. One thing that's necessary to explain to non-Germans reading this thread is that Germans don't believe in huge prison terms for anything. Somebody like Bernie Madoff wouldn't have gotten 15000000000000000 years in prison in Germany, but maybe 15, if that, and gotten out after 10 or so. And this applies to all cases and all perpetrators, not just noble ones. One recent case that I seem to remember is about some non-noble young guy assaulting people in Berlin subway stations and hardly getting punished for that. Also, if his nobility is supposedly worth that much, then why did he feel he needed to plagiarize?
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Nov 25, 2011 04:01
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flavor posted:Also, if his nobility is supposedly worth that much, then why did he feel he needed to plagiarize? Are you asking why he asked someone else to write his thesis, or are you asking why he even wanted the title? My own answer to the former: Because Guttenberg was a rich politician with a golden future, and to me it seems like the University of Bayreuth hands those people doctorates together with a fruit basket. Before Guttenberg nobody really cared whether some rich guy actually wrote his own thesis, so Guttenberg didn't have any reason to believe he had to put any effort into not being "caught", because he thought nobody was looking. Hungry Gerbil kind of already answered the latter question: One can never have too many titles, especially not academic titles in politics. A Dr. in front of your name is a must-have.
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Nov 25, 2011 14:22
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Grendels Dad posted:Hungry Gerbil kind of already answered the latter question: One can never have too many titles, especially not academic titles in politics. A Dr. in front of your name is a must-have.
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Nov 25, 2011 17:25
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Previously on GBS posted:...if you're a member of the CDU/CSU or FDP. I'm not sure Doctor Gerhard Schröder agrees.
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Nov 25, 2011 17:31
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One of the highlights of this legislative period is how the FDP got utterly destroyed by their own actions. I really hope they don't recover from their loss of popularity and won't get into the Bundestag in 2013.Grendels Dad posted:I'm not sure Doctor Gerhard Schröder agrees. gently caress Putin's BFF Schröder. The whole Gazprom afair was/is so horribly corrupt I want to punch him. Hungry Gerbil fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Nov 25, 2011 |
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Nov 25, 2011 17:32
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lol Every university student and pretty much everyone else voted for FDP in 2009 elections.
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Nov 25, 2011 19:22
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Fallen German conservative star ready for comeback No wonder, no one really gives a poo poo if he cheated on his dissertation except for those people that have to write their own and are envious that the minister post and the "von" doesn't come with it for free. What difference makes it for his qualification as a politician that his dissertation did not entirely consist of his own work? He would very probably have made the same career without the title. His charisma and appearance are what qualifies him as a potential future chancellor, not his ability to manage family, political career and scientific work at the same time. He lied, but so what, that's part of the job and he didn't do it in office or about anything Otto Normalbuerger would give a poo poo about.
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Nov 25, 2011 21:12
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goethe42 posted:He lied, but so what, that's part of the job and he didn't do it in office or about anything Otto Normalbuerger would give a poo poo about. What the gently caress is wrong with you? You are ok with liars being in power. gently caress you.
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Nov 25, 2011 21:17
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goethe42 posted:No wonder, no one really gives a poo poo if he cheated on his dissertation except for those people that have to write their own and are envious that the minister post and the "von" doesn't come with it for free. What's wrong? He's a fraud. So what? Nothing to see here.
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Nov 25, 2011 21:37
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Interrupting Guttenberg chat to say that you shan't read the spiegel online or otherwise. Bad journalism is bad.
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Nov 25, 2011 21:44
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Hungry Gerbil posted:gently caress Putin's BFF Schröder. The whole Gazprom afair was/is so horribly corrupt I want to punch him. Yeah, how much coverage did this get in the german media? From what I know, he shaped policies in favour of some Gazprom deal while still in office, and afterwards joined them. I don't get the impression he's being shunned for all of that. Concerning politicians and careers in the private sector, Joschka Fischer as Ecology spokesman for BMW still makes me lol.
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