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discstickers posted:Local casino 1/3. Effective stacks are $200. I'm in SB with QQ. You have to bet that flop. Turn bet is too small as well. You're betting 20 into a 48 pot. You look weak as all hell.
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Dec 19, 2011 20:46
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Mexal posted:You have to bet that flop. Turn bet is too small as well. You're betting 20 into a 48 pot. You look weak as all hell. Looking weak is not the issue here. We have top set we are trying to look weak.
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Dec 19, 2011 20:49
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:Looking weak is not the issue here. We have top set we are trying to look weak. Not on a 3 spade board without a spade.
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Dec 19, 2011 21:24
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Mexal posted:Not on a 3 spade board without a spade. ???? how does this affect anything? We gonna get bluffed off of top set on the turn??
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Dec 19, 2011 21:43
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:???? how does this affect anything? We gonna get bluffed off of top set on the turn?? No. But by looking weak on the turn, we can't bluff the river if we wanted (villain dependent as we have no information on them). As played, he lost pretty much the minimum, but I wouldn't have played that hand that way.
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Dec 19, 2011 21:57
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Is betting the flop here with a standard c bet ok? Something like 12 to 15 because the board looks fairly weak sans flush draw?
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Dec 19, 2011 22:04
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discstickers posted:Local casino 1/3. Effective stacks are $200. I'm in SB with QQ. Raise more preflop - I assume 1/3 plays like 1/2, so 5x should be your standard no limper open, then add 1bb per limper, so I'd go 21. People want to see flops, make them pay for it. Bet the flop - every single time, EVERY SINGLE TIME someone raises preflop, checks the flop J+ high flop, and then wants to put significant money in they always, always have flopped top set and decided to slowplay it like a retard. Bet the flop. Turn bet is probably too small but you know what? Bet the flop. BET THE FLOP. Crazy685 posted:Is betting the flop here with a standard c bet ok? Something like 12 to 15 because the board looks fairly weak sans flush draw?
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Dec 19, 2011 22:58
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I had no idea why I thought the pot was 25. I may be bad at reading comprehension or math. Maybe both. Thanks for the answer and explanation tho
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Dec 20, 2011 01:09
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Mexal posted:No. But by looking weak on the turn, we can't bluff the river if we wanted (villain dependent as we have no information on them). By looking weak on the turn, we can also value bet non-spade rivers, which occurs a lot more frequently. Maybe I'm missing something, but your logic seems poor and results-oriented. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 01:31
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Blinky2099 posted:By looking weak on the turn, we can also value bet non-spade rivers, which occurs a lot more frequently. Ok. So you're fine with his line? That's how you would play it? I understand why people slow play, I just don't agree with it, especially at that level where most players are passive. It's generally unnecessary and I feel you're either leaving value on the table or allowing the villain to catch up cheaply.
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Dec 20, 2011 01:48
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Mexal posted:You have to bet that flop. Turn bet is too small as well. You're betting 20 into a 48 pot. You look weak as all hell. In a 1/3 live game nobody is paying attention to the betsize, they aren't going to make any meaningful conclusions from it. So we shouldn't use things like that to dominate our strategy, you should just be trying to play maximally exploitable at all times. Betting small is wrong, but the reason is because most hands that call $20 are calling at least $35, and we just want to maximize value when we have a strong hand.
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Dec 20, 2011 01:48
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Mexal posted:Ok. So you're fine with his line? That's how you would play it? Mexal posted:I understand why people slow play, I just don't agree with it, especially at that level where most players are passive. It's generally unnecessary and I feel you're either leaving value on the table or allowing the villain to catch up cheaply. Also: Not only do we get called wider on non-spade rivers, but we can bet/call when he decides to bluff due to us "looking weak." Your turn logic seems to be entirely based on the fact that the river was a spade, which is obviously a horrendous way to review a hand. It's the equivalent to suggesting "fold KK!!" because they posted a hand where villain had pocket aces. Zerostar's post ^^^ is the reason why people (including me) suggested to bet more on the turn. NOT because of how your perceived hand range changes. However, if we assume villain is paying attention to our bet-sizing, your decision-making is still backwards for the above reasons. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 01:50
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Those 1/3 games are incredibly passive. Very little three-betting pre. Bet/raise on the flop is even more rare. They're also very trappy, especially with flopped sets (not just top set) and two pair. I think I should have bet flop (easy to say in retrospect I guess). I think it's one of those win a small pot vs. lose a bigger pot situations. I'm curious as to why to bet bigger on the turn. I'm giving him 3.25-1, less than his actual equity. He can't figure to have large implied odds, given my line. I likely either have higher spades (and/or a made flush already) or I'm not calling any bet on river spades. The villain seemed like an above-average player. And besides his non-raise pre, I don't hate his play.
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Dec 20, 2011 08:01
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discstickers posted:Those 1/3 games are incredibly passive. Very little three-betting pre. Bet/raise on the flop is even more rare. They're also very trappy, especially with flopped sets (not just top set) and two pair. Just a simple EV calculation, you are ahead most of the time and betting bigger doesn't discourage calls really, so the EV of betting bigger is higher. There can be reasons to bet smaller, but I don't think they apply here. You just want to value bet, so you need to be trying to maximize your EV which means maximizing the product (call %)*(betsize), you have to take into account the river as well though.
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Dec 20, 2011 08:40
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discstickers posted:Local casino 1/3. Effective stacks are $200. I'm in SB with QQ. Cbet this flop. Usually somewhere around 1/2 pot. Bet turn a size that you can put vil all in on river for 2/3 to 3/4 pot. River is probably c/f.
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Dec 20, 2011 20:17
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MERGE_GAME #4558108300033: Holdem NL $0.05/$0.10 12/20/2011 12:50:30 Table Lima (45581083), Seats 6 Seat 1: RoofusLeakin ($9.13 in chips) Seat 2: iHeartDiamondz ($11.00 in chips) Seat 3: LastFlowers ($10.58 in chips) Seat 4: crick170 ($8.95 in chips) Seat 5: utlife ($10.17 in chips) Seat 6: jackjones76 ($9.65 in chips) DEALER RoofusLeakin: Post SB $0.05 iHeartDiamondz: Post BB $0.10 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to LastFlowers [Ac Tc] LastFlowers: Raise $0.30 crick170: Call $0.30 utlife: Raise $1.18 jackjones76: Call $1.18 RoofusLeakin: Call $1.13 iHeartDiamondz: Fold LastFlowers: Call $0.88 crick170: Call $0.88 *** FLOP *** [6h 8c 7c] RoofusLeakin: Check LastFlowers: Check crick170: Bet $1.50 utlife: Allin $8.99 jackjones76: Fold RoofusLeakin: Allin $7.95 LastFlowers: Allin $9.40 crick170: Fold *** TURN *** [4d] *** RIVER *** [5s] *** SUMMARY *** RoofusLeakin: Shows [9s As] LastFlowers: Shows [Ac Tc] utlife: Shows [9d 9h] LastFlowers: wins $0.41 utlife: wins $1.98 utlife: wins $14.89 RoofusLeakin: wins $14.89 I'm pretty much always folding A10 suited to a 3 bet from someone who isn't 3 betting all that much. BUT two massive fish call here, and I thought I suddenly have the implied odds I need to play the hand. Am I wrong for thinking this?. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MERGE_GAME #4553323901387: Holdem NL $0.05/$0.10 12/20/2011 13:10:37 Table Lima (45533239), Seats 6 Seat 1: SnapShooter ($15.23 in chips) Seat 2: lapince ($10.00 in chips) DEALER Seat 4: LastFlowers ($17.07 in chips) Seat 5: ProtectYourNuts ($14.75 in chips) Seat 6: Crimsontrace3 ($9.89 in chips) LastFlowers: Post SB $0.05 ProtectYourNuts: Post BB $0.10 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to LastFlowers [Td Tc] Crimsontrace3: Fold SnapShooter: Fold lapince: Raise $0.30 LastFlowers: Raise $1.10 ProtectYourNuts: Call $1.00 lapince: Fold *** FLOP *** [Js 2s Jd] LastFlowers: Bet $1.45 ProtectYourNuts: Call $1.45 *** TURN *** [Jc] LastFlowers: Check ProtectYourNuts: Bet $3.00 LastFlowers: Call $3.00 *** RIVER *** [2c] LastFlowers: Check ProtectYourNuts: Bet $8.50 LastFlowers: ????????????? Villain was 21/17. Is anyone really cold calling a 3 bet with AJ/KJ? I had been 3 betting a ton though. QQ was the hand that worried me the most, as was JJ before the 3rd jack fell. We were pretty deep here and I don't expect him to be bluffing for pot which had me leaning towards a fold. On the other hand its just sooooooo hard for him to have a hand here seeing how KK/AA and sometimes QQ 4-bet Preflop. Also I had a note that the villain called me down on dry boards with under pairs twice. He doesn't like to give up. But in those situations he was calling or checking behind and not turning his hands into bluffs. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 20:40
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After taking a shower I started thinking that if hes calling me down light I should probably be bet/folding turn, river. Unfortunately that would also have me folding jacks full getting huge odds. I'm finding myself in these spots with over pairs a lot and I really really don't know what to do.
TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 20, 2011 |
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Dec 20, 2011 20:59
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First hand is fine/standard/whatever Second hand bet turn, jam river. You have the nuts.
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Dec 20, 2011 23:56
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1-3 local casino, this is the 4th hand of a new game, so no reads. Effective stacks are $200. I'm dealt A  J on button.UTG+1 limps, CO raises to 16, I call, BB calls, UTG+1 folds. Flop A  K9, BB checks, CO bets 16, I call, BB folds.Turn J , CO bets 50, I call.River 10  , CO pushes. I ...
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Dec 21, 2011 08:15
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Thanks, I think I'm just being results oriented that he showed up with AJ of hearts. I think my line was terrible considering he calls me with a ton of poo poo that checks behind.
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Dec 21, 2011 08:16
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discstickers posted:1-3 local casino, this is the 4th hand of a new game, so no reads. Effective stacks are $200. - What is your reasoning for your turn play? - On the river, what kind of hands do you think he has? He's betting what, about 120 into a pot of ~170-180? It should be an easy decision that you can make based on what you think his range of hands is vs the odds you're getting. Try to work this out on your own. (What % chance you think you have of calling and winning vs pot odds) In my opinion, we should call turn like you did, fold every river if villain shoves, value shove blank rivers if checked to. Anyone else agree with this? As played, it's obviously a snap fold. He has you beat like 95% of the time here. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 08:18
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Fold, there is literally zero hands hes doing this with for value that you are beating. You have a very pretty bluff catcher. The more I think about this hand the more I'm starting to think that villain did show a bluff. And thats why you are wondering if folding is correct. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 08:22
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Edit: nothing to see here!
Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 08:24
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I haven't been drinking, I'm just saying if I had been AJ would still be about a 6/10. But you always give solid advice, so imma go ahead and follow it.
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Dec 21, 2011 08:28
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http://cakepoker.eu/en/HandHistory?Hand=xszFwsTFxcDGwsTExMLNxYjGwMPGw8LM My only read on him is that he's been raising the button 3 of the past 5 times he's had it. I just sat down to the table before that. Are my bets okay?
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Dec 21, 2011 09:49
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We can't see your hole cards.
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Dec 21, 2011 11:38
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Ugh whoops I'm sorry. It was pocket Tens. I'll start using the hand converter. Ive never played cake (started yesterday) and haven't figured out how to copy/paste into one of the converters.
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Dec 21, 2011 18:45
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Blinky2099 posted:In my opinion, we should call turn like you did, fold every river if villain shoves, value shove blank rivers if checked to. Anyone else agree with this? I'm fine with the turn call, by raising I don't see how AQ/KdTx/draw/anything we get value from can call. On the the river we are only beating like total bluffs so I'd just take a second to admire my hand and then fold. His betting on turn/river ship after betting really small on flop also makes me think he has a made hand...could just be overthinking though. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 19:11
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discstickers posted:1-3 local casino, this is the 4th hand of a new game, so no reads. Effective stacks are $200. I think we can fold turn. His CO raising/cbet/bet big on turn range 3way on this board is really strong like AA KK AK AQ 99 and the occasional diamonds, I can't really see enough worse hands in his range to call. The worst hand that we can hope he has here is like KJs and there's only 2 combos of that. so 1 combo of AA 3 of KK 6 of AK 8 of AQ and 3 of 99 makes 13 combos we lose horribly to and can make big mistakes on the river against and 8 combos (AQ) we beat now but has equity especially if he has the Qd. MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 19:26
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$1/$2 NL Cash at my local card room. I have about $550. Villain is in MP with about $500, so we're both super deep right now. He's young and seems relatively competent with bet sizing and aggression, and has actually shown two bluffs, one he showed after he won a decent sized pot with J4o, and he was caught bluffing once with QJ on an ace high board with no Q or J. I have A 10 on the button.2 limps. Villain opens for $11. One caller in the CO. I call from the button. One of the limpers folds, the other calls. Flop: 10 8 6 (Pot: ~$40 with rake and jackpot taken out).Limper checks. Villain checks. CO checks. I bet $20. Limper folds. Villain raises to $60. CO folds. I call. Turn: 5 (Pot: ~$160)Villain bets $110. Hero folds. After it gets checked to me on the flop and I am pretty sure I have the best hand so I lead out for half-pot, should this bet be bigger? Villain's flop check-raise is weird. I think most decent made hands other than the nuts is leading this flop. What does he have here that would do this? I decided to call and evaluate the turn because his line is really weird at this point. If this was a more passive player I would be turbo-mucking this hand because it would scream strength, but he has been aggressive. When he 2/3 pots it on the blank turn I am still confused, but since we are so deep I can't see continuing to the river because I am likely to have to play for pretty much my whole stack, so I decided to fold. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 19:44
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Blinky2099 posted:Try answering these questions before reviewing what other people say they would do. In my experience at these stakes, AA or KK will very rarely bet that flop, especially with someone behind and a potential caller - the games are just way too trappy. AK will be more often, but also rare. 99 will probably bet because it hits so much of our range. AQ/AT/A9 bet that flop. KQ will bet with diamonds. Connected diamonds will bet. Underpairs will most likely check. I don't think QQ bets. In retrospect think the turn call is marginal. I have four outs to a likely winner (excepting AA or KK), so I'm really calling 50 to win 250 (16*5 + 50 + 120 behind). He could also be bluffing. A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river. The river is a clear fold as played in my opinion, way too many hands beat us with the T. The villain was very LAG. Next hand he stacks two players with KQ vs QT vs a ace-high flush draw on a Qxx board. He proceeded to bluff off $500 over the next hour.
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Dec 21, 2011 19:45
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discstickers posted:In my experience at these stakes, AA or KK will very rarely bet that flop, especially with someone behind and a potential caller - the games are just way too trappy. AK will be more often, but also rare. 99 will probably bet because it hits so much of our range. AQ/AT/A9 bet that flop. KQ will bet with diamonds. Connected diamonds will bet. Underpairs will most likely check. I don't think QQ bets. This board is pretty scary, villain would have to be an idiot to check AA and KK 100% of the time. quote:In retrospect think the turn call is marginal. I have four outs to a likely winner (excepting AA or KK), so I'm really calling 50 to win 250 (16*5 + 50 + 120 behind). He could also be bluffing. A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river. Woahhhhh what? You are not calling 50 to win 250 and you have 2 clean outs and those might not even be good. What's he bluffing with? And are you advocating a shove to avoid making a river decision? Btw I think flatting turn is a mistake and if we are continuing we should just jam. But back to calling 50 to win 250 how can you think this? If we want the rest of his stack he has to either jam river (and that means calling 120 to win his 120 + whatever is in the pot) or we jam river (and he has to call every time). quote:The villain was very LAG. Next hand he stacks two players with KQ vs QT vs a ace-high flush draw on a Qxx board. He proceeded to bluff off $500 over the next hour. this is nice and all but it doesn't really help us with this hand.
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Dec 21, 2011 20:06
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Dr. Eat posted:Yeah 100%, not sure why you spoiler-tagged it heh. discstickers posted:A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river. I originally said I thought it was close between calling and raising but now I definitely think raising is horrendous and the worst option here. discstickers posted:In my experience at these stakes, AA or KK will very rarely bet that flop, especially with someone behind and a potential caller - the games are just way too trappy. AK will be more often, but also rare. 99 will probably bet because it hits so much of our range. AQ/AT/A9 bet that flop. KQ will bet with diamonds. Connected diamonds will bet. Underpairs will most likely check. I don't think QQ bets. discstickers posted:In retrospect think the turn call is marginal. I have four outs to a likely winner (excepting AA or KK), so I'm really calling 50 to win 250 (16*5 + 50 + 120 behind). He could also be bluffing. A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river. discstickers posted:The villain was very LAG. Next hand he stacks two players with KQ vs QT vs a ace-high flush draw on a Qxx board. He proceeded to bluff off $500 over the next hour. Also the stuff that spasticmoose mentioned about you making too many large assumptions about the pot odds you're getting. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 20:08
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Mind_Taker posted:$1/$2 NL Cash at my local card room. I have about $550. Villain is in MP with about $500, so we're both super deep right now. He's young and seems relatively competent with bet sizing and aggression, and has actually shown two bluffs, one he showed after he won a decent sized pot with J4o, and he was caught bluffing once with QJ on an ace high board with no Q or J. You probably should have realized you are going to face a bet on most turns and that most turns are pretty bad for us. I most likely call though since we're not playing for our whole stack yet and it's hard for villain to jam river as a bluff but his flop ch/r range is a looot of semibluffs. Your logic basically boils down to "we were deep and i got scared so i folded and i thought i was going to reevaluate turn but it was blank and i didnt". Also i do bet bigger.
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Dec 21, 2011 20:10
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Mind_Taker posted:$1/$2 NL Cash at my local card room. I have about $550. Villain is in MP with about $500, so we're both super deep right now. He's young and seems relatively competent with bet sizing and aggression, and has actually shown two bluffs, one he showed after he won a decent sized pot with J4o, and he was caught bluffing once with QJ on an ace high board with no Q or J. He's semi-bluffing at worst and his range has a lot of equity vs our hand. We have to fold a ton of turns, and even when it bricks and we can call, the best we're hoping for on the river is chk/chk if he gives up on a missed draw. As played, if we're calling his raise flop we can't fold this turn IMO (anyone disagree?) The 5 is not a complete blank but it's close to best-case.
Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 20:37
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discstickers posted:The villain was very LAG. Next hand he stacks two players with KQ vs QT vs a ace-high flush draw on a Qxx board. He proceeded to bluff off $500 over the next hour. This read means nothing in regards to the hand unless you have a time machine. Do you? I really wanna go see At-the-drive-in. This happens a lot in poker where you sit down at a table, have a pretty good hand, and get raised off it by an unknown. A few orbits later you see it happen a few more times or he gets to showdown with something that makes no sense what so ever and you say "Oh hes just a really bad aggressive, I guess I made a bad fold, and should probably quit playing this game because I'm clearly no good at it AT ALL!" But the thing is, you didn't have that read when you made your original fold. You have to make assumptions about other players you know nothing about when you first play with them, and a pretty good assumption to make is "This guy isn't going to bluff off his entire stack to me 4 hands into a session on a board wetter then my sexually unsatisfied fiance's vagina. There really is nothing at all you can do about this, and figuring out how to play against a player you have zero history with is a problem that everyone has and everyone always will have, don't sweat it at all. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 21:09
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Crazy685 posted:http://cakepoker.eu/en/HandHistory?Hand=xszFwsTFxcDGwsTExMLNxYjGwMPGw8LM The 3bet and flop cbet are fine, you should be 3betting bigger though since he made it 3.5x, I would make it 2.20 at least. After that you could argue for a different turn line. The turn bet doesn't get called by a lot of worse hands, so it's mostly to make sure he doesn't get a chance to bluff you. I don't like that plan too much, it seems like his range should have JJ, QJ+ in it very often, and is never folding turn. So depending on how wide his 3bet calling range is, and flop calling range (he might have KJ, AT, AJ, T9s), I would rather check and decide I think. It also seems like we're in a pretty bad spot by cbetting, so although it seems like a standard play I think checking flop might be best here.
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Dec 22, 2011 00:23
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Mind_Taker posted:I have A I think betting here into 3 other people with no club in our hand is lighting money on fire. If you are betting definitely betting big on flop...folding to check-raise even his bluffs have good equity against us. But yeah, when we bet even if we just get 1-2 callers the pot becomes really bloated and we have to bet blank turns to protect our hand. Probably checking back flop and betting brick turns is best. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Dec 22, 2011 |
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Dec 22, 2011 00:58
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Dr. Eat posted:Uhh I really hate villains line... The bottom line of this train of thought is "im scared to play larger pots." Checking behind flop is a pretty big mistake and something I definitely don't do I think ever? There's a ton of draws and worse pairs and things that want to see the turn and will pay us to see it and being forced to bet blank turns isn't a problem at all because we almost always have the best hand? I really don't know why we would check behind toppest pair. As far as his semibluffs having good equity vs us we're only seeing one card and we're IP so we can basically decide how much more we are going to put into the pot. I have no problems with bet/calling flop and calling a lot of blank turns, the only reason I wouldn't is if I thought villain had very strong hands only and very few semibluffs.
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Dec 22, 2011 01:45
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Dr. Eat posted:Uhh I really hate villains line... Live 1/2 one of the biggest leaks people have is calling too much, this board is a perfect example where people will be happy to call flop and turn with lots of mediocre hands, and the hands that beat you will likely let you know early. The flop bet should be bigger. You are value betting and this is a good example of a board where most hands that call $20 call $40, these players are never folding a pair + draw, FD, top pair, 87s, etc. In general you need to be betting bigger for value, and smaller with bluffs because people won't catch on.
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Dec 22, 2011 02:18
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