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Yes, this sucks and is a cooler, but I'd like some input on bet sizing. Live 1-2. I've been pretty aggressive, picking up pots. I haven't shown down any bluffs since I sat down. I've worked my $300 buy-in to $500. Villain has ~$650-$700. Table has been pretty passive in non-straddled hands, not much reraising, except when I cracked a short stack's AA with KK a few hands ago. I'm dealt JTo in MP. There's a limper in front of me, I limp behind. villain raises to $7. BB calls as does the limper, I call. Flop is 987, with the bottom two clubs (I have no clubs). Check, check. I bet $25. Villain raises to $60. Fold, fold. I re-raise another $200. Villain calls. Turn is a red K. I immediately push in my remaining $300. Villain instacalls and flips over KK. And of course a 9 fell on the river. a) Was the flop re-raise too much? b) Once he calls the flop, there's no reason not to instashove any non-club or board-pairing turn, right?
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Jan 4, 2012 04:23
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nah flop raise is fine 3x is standard. it's actually good to be shoveling money in/overbetting at a passive table. you have less than a pot size bet left on turn i don't see any sizing other than ollll-in. plus it's kinda gay if you bet like 150, he calls, and you have to bet like 1/5th pot on river and it may be some action killing card. i like the flop lead there are lots of random 2pair combos/dummy straights/sets that people can have 4 handed. wp lovely river.
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Jan 4, 2012 19:27
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That re-raise with the $200... let's play from the KK point of view. Can someone give me an idea of what a proper read there is? If I'm holding the KK, I have to be thinking "Flush draw" or "bottom set" right? Also did you have $600 or $500 to start the hand? It may not matter but it also may... again I'm reading this from the perspective of the other guy. You went from $25 -> $60 -> $260 (as I read it) and that just has to send some major flags if you're holding KK.
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Jan 4, 2012 22:33
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I'm assuming he made it 140 more so like 3x, which is pretty standard...if it was 260 total then yea that's too big. Also if you have an aggressive image and haven't shown down anything people will never give you credit. So from the KK guy's perspective you still have tons of draws in your range and a lot of times for live players/lowstakes online "overpair = nuts" though when someone leads and 3bets 987cc Crazy685 knows to dump their aces but most live donks don't. I mean, he did instantly call hero with 4th nuts so he's not thinking on to high a level. Also you wanna fastplay with the flushdraw out there cause if the turn is the king of clubs he may fold.
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Jan 5, 2012 00:25
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I suppose I didn't take his table image into account. My question is, if it's presented like this- 1/2 Live. Villain has been very aggressive, hasn't shown down. I have KK. I made it $7, and get two callers. Flop 7c 8c 9d I check, other guy checks, villain makes it $25. I re-raise $60. other guy folds. Villain makes it $200. Hero??? Even with that table image, we pretty much have to fold it, right? The preflop raise being so small was stupid (I mean, at least go 4x BB if you're a 3x + 1x for every limper model) Again this is all my opinion, I just have a lot of trouble with aggressive players on flops like this after I make it 4-5x BB holding KK and AA. I haven't run across this recently (or remembered it well enough to post a hand in this thread)
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Jan 5, 2012 00:42
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Well, first, I don't think we should ever be checkraising KK on 789tt multiway as the PFR from the sb. I don't like it at all. It just doesn't do anything for us good. Air/worse folds, better or something with a fuckton of equity calls or 3bets. If we're called, we've bloated the pot while out of position in a spot where we just hate a ton of turn cards where we can get bet off our hand anyway and have to check/give up. If we're 3bet we're at best up against probably a very strong draw at worst we're against the nuts and need runner runner, case in point. way behind slightly ahead spot or whatever. I think I'm ok with checking though, and depending on action we might even be able to check/fold this flop fairly comfortably since it is multiway, crazy wet, and we're in a spot where if money is going in, a lot is going in and we're facing a ton of pressure oop. Action as played I probably ch/c flop. His ch/r is just the worst. This flop is like setminer central with a ton of draws thrown in to boot.
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Jan 5, 2012 02:03
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Since we're just talking about cheeseburger stakes yes always fold KK here to a 3-bet deep. Obvious exceptions. But if I was in this spot I would never raise KK here to a donkbet since it rarely hits the PFR's (our) range and hits a lot of the limpers' range. 3-betting on that flop seems to be burning money if we're going to slow down on a flush card or paired board on the turn. Essentially it means after putting in 40% of your chips, 1/3rd of the time on the turn you're just going to check and then have to decide whether the guy is bluffing or not if he bets.
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Jan 5, 2012 02:13
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Your play is good. Villains play is pretty bad, he needs to ditch the KK to the 3bet. But thats why we play 1/2, right?
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Jan 5, 2012 04:59
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I started with slightly more than 500, since my $200 raise (really a raise of about $140) and $300 bet were full stacks. I doubt the villain was even thinking about my hand, let alone my range. He only slows down if an A hits. It's a passive table, but this particular villain has shown interest by raising twice. Don't I want to get as much money in the pot with the nuts as possible? Given how deep we are, is there that big of a difference between raising to $120 vs $220? Strong Sauce: Are you advocating calling the flop then check calling down?
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Jan 5, 2012 07:28
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Ah...you donked the flop. The way I read the hand initially was that villain was in sb, not in late position and isolating. I thought he had checked the flop. After rereading I think he's in a pretty gross spot with KK because who wants to just call KK with two to act behind on a fairly wet board and I don't like raising either, and we obviously can't fold, so, I'm not sure what I do with KK now but I think a lot of it would depend on my view of you and the other two people in the hand. Once you choose to donk, which I think is probably pretty good here considering, and we're oop, and we get raised while holding the nuts, yeah, I keep funneling money in on the flop. 3b flop is good. Teppec fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 5, 2012 |
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Jan 5, 2012 15:50
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Is this line okay, should I have check/folded on any of the streets? Should I have just flatted and set-mined? I think the bet sizing could be wrong because his river call is too easy given stack sizes. $2/$5 Live NLHE. Villain is younger and pretty good regular, I have played with him some and we've never really tangled other than him raising all in his 8  9 and me calling with JJ on a 5 56 flop and him catching a turn straight. He's definitely capable of raising light when it's folded to him in the CO and I have seen him show down some pretty trashy hands, but he's also seen me 3-bet light when there is a single raiser on the button. I 3-bet a couple of days ago with T9s from the SB and flopped a straight and was able to get it in against another one of the better players at the table.Hero (SB) (~$550) Villain (CO) (~$1000) 8-handed, folds to Villain in the CO who raises to $20. I have 22 on the SB and I 3-bet to $70. He calls. Flop ($135 with rake taken out): J94 rainbow. I bet $90, he calls. Turn ($315): 3 (makes a rainbow board) I bet $140, he calls. River ($595): 8. I shove for my remaining ~$250. He calls and obviously wins the pot. I 3-bet because Villain's range I think is super weak here but I don't think a pair of deuces holds up well post-flop unless I flop a set which of course is unlikely. I'd rather be the aggressor against his weak range and either take it down preflop, or maybe take it down with a c-bet on the flop. When he calls my 3-bet I think absolutely trash like J3o is removed from his range, but I could see him continuing with weak aces, suited connectors, etc. The flop is somewhat dry so I expect a c-bet may take down the pot here a good percentage of the time. When he calls I think he either has a J, 9, straight draw, all sets, and any pocket pair, and MAYBE a 4. The turn doesn't change much. I thought a turn bet would get 9s, some straight draws, and low-medium pocket pairs to fold. River I guess I could check/fold but I thought I may have had enough behind me to get him to fold anything worse than a J. After thinking about it, he's getting better than 3:1 on a river call so I probably should have just given up. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 5, 2012 |
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Jan 5, 2012 17:15
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Your 3bet is fine preflop. On this flop a cbet can be called fairly wide, QT,KQ,JTs+,QJo+, that makes up a good amount of his 3bet call range I would suspect. So a double barrel seems decent here since he can have some weak draws and some pairs < J that I expect to fold. After you get called twice his range should be mostly made up of Jx that isn't folding, so I would give up at that point. Betsizing wise I would go smaller on flop, and bigger on turn. This is one of the worst hands (22) to be bluffing with here because your equity is real bad, so I also don't mind giving up on flop, although I know nothing of this guys 3bet call range and postflop tendencies.
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Jan 5, 2012 20:28
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I give up on the flop or fire two barrels, usually giving up on the flop with a hand like this since we have so many more hands that actually have equity on this kind of board. I bet smaller on the flop and larger on the turn. Definitely not triple barreling here.
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Jan 5, 2012 23:24
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Meh i think folding is better pre than 3b against a good opponent who won't play super fit or fold on the flop or make huge pussie babbie laydowns on the turn/river. Even if he's opening really wide he has to fold a big portion of that range to show immediate profit. Then you're stuck blasting money in with like 20% equity, so he has to fold even more often etc etc. Maybe imprpve at having the flop come j92?
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Jan 6, 2012 01:02
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The 3bet pre is reallyyyyy bad in a vacuum IMO tho there is some metagame stuff going on here so I guess it could be OK considering it. Ummm if we're gonna barrel def just like bet way smaller on flop then we can fire a cheaper barrel on turn. Also If we've decided we're just gonna blow the villain off whatever he has then maybe just flat pre and donk the flop? Or c-raise flop as a bluff (play it like a set a la tony g)? Both of those are way cheaper then 3betting and having to play a really big pot OOP. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 6, 2012 |
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Jan 6, 2012 17:24
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Dr. Eat posted:The 3bet pre is reallyyyyy bad in a vacuum IMO tho there is some metagame stuff going on here so I guess it could be OK considering it. There is definitely some meta-game stuff. Like I said he is a regular and I have played with him a bunch, so the fact that he saw me 3-bet and triple barrel with 22 on that board may lead to some better situations for me later, but I agree I still didn't play this hand well. But I do think my 3-bet was okay given his actual raising range (and his 3-bet calling range given his actual hand he had at showdown which was 9  5).I think the best advice given so far was a smaller flop bet and bigger turn bet (or just giving up after the flop c-bet), and then giving up that river. When he flats two streets he probably has something better than a draw as I think he is perceptive enough to see that I don't have enough behind to continue with just a draw, and given my stack size I should have known he was calling any river.
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Jan 6, 2012 17:55
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Dr. Eat posted:The 3bet pre is reallyyyyy bad in a vacuum IMO tho there is some metagame stuff going on here so I guess it could be OK considering it. Flatting pre is worse than 3betting in this spot sooo.... (also we're not in a vacuum so it doesnt really matter how good it is in a vacuum even though it's still better than flatting) also you don't just "decided to blow villain off whatever he has" that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You're not even analyzing you're just like "I DONT KNOW TRY EVERYTHING ELSE." ch/r flop is probably terrible because people dont fold top pair and we're burning money trying to find out if he doesnt have top pair. 3betting pre and 2barrelling this board is pretty good and you dont give very good advice so... give less.
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Jan 6, 2012 17:59
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Mind_Taker posted:There is definitely some meta-game stuff. Like I said he is a regular and I have played with him a bunch, so the fact that he saw me 3-bet and triple barrel with 22 on that board may lead to some better situations for me later, but I agree I still didn't play this hand well. But I do think my 3-bet was okay given his actual raising range (and his 3-bet calling range given his actual hand he had at showdown which was 9 Isn't the whole point of 3betting preflop here to win the $27 in the pot right now, maybe win $50 more a decent percentage of the time if he plays flops fit-or-fold, and then avoid having to play OOP against a good player with a hand that has lovely equity when he doesn't fold flop? So wouldn't having 95hh in his raise-calling makes the 3bet even worse compared to folding, especially when he doesn't fold to 3 barrels on a J9438 board? Unamuno fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 6, 2012 |
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Jan 6, 2012 21:40
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Also given that he didn't fold there and based on what sounds like his skill level, it smells strongly to me of an "I put you on AK mentality on his part", so I would keep that in mind in the future. Then again he may also just put you on whatever hand he can beat and call (the dolce theorem)
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Jan 6, 2012 22:00
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:Flatting pre is worse than 3betting in this spot sooo.... I really agree with this. Wondering though, do you have a calling range in sb in this spot? I mean a against a co steal from a reg who you have very little history with and who doesn't think you're full of poo poo. AARO fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jan 7, 2012 |
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Jan 7, 2012 00:14
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olin posted:I really agree with this. Wondering though, do you have a calling range in sb in this spot? Until the dynamic changes there's not a lot I'm going to flat. Mostly marginal suited face cards like KJs and AJs/AJo, something like 99. Stuff I'm not going to know what to do if we get 4bet and still plays well oop. Depending on how he reacts my range is going to change though.
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Jan 7, 2012 01:31
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Live .10/.25 cent. Having trouble with a villain. Can't get a read on him. He's been very aggressive but at the same time has no thumbs. Whenever I raise preflop he just stares at me for like 20-30 seconds. He also has terrible choice in beers. Advice?
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Jan 8, 2012 21:41
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Throw a beggin strip or piece of rawhide in with any value bets and he'll try to steal the pot with 100% of his range.
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Jan 8, 2012 22:05
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Tongue out/panting is a huge tell, he's holding onto a monster. If he check-raises you, yell "BAD DOG!" and insta-shove.
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Jan 9, 2012 00:53
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Is my river play ok here? Should I be shipping? Villain seems like a standard TAG, though I haven't seen many showdowns. http://cakepoker.eu/en/HandHistory?Hand=xszHwcTFxsPFxcTExMPMxIjGxsfCw8fE
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Jan 9, 2012 22:06
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seniorservice posted:Is my river play ok here? Should I be shipping? Villain seems like a standard TAG, though I haven't seen many showdowns. This deep and him apparently opening super wide (seriously, K7s in MP isn't TAG and you should be abusing his opens cause he's doing it way too light), there is a good argument for 3betting J9s pre, unless he 4bets/folds versus 3bets oop. Flop is fine, turn seems fine not sure of exact pot size, but if you get called I would be planning on barrelling a lot of rivers. River I would definitely raise but I think stacks are too deep to just jam. I would go like 2.5x - I want to do bigger but I don't think he has a T here very often at all.
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Jan 9, 2012 23:19
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Ranma posted:This deep and him apparently opening super wide (seriously, K7s in MP isn't TAG and you should be abusing his opens cause he's doing it way too light), there is a good argument for 3betting J9s pre, unless he 4bets/folds versus 3bets oop. Flop is fine, turn seems fine not sure of exact pot size, but if you get called I would be planning on barrelling a lot of rivers. River I would definitely raise but I think stacks are too deep to just jam. I would go like 2.5x - I want to do bigger but I don't think he has a T here very often at all. He only had like 2.7 on the river, any raise would have been a jam. And before that K7s he hadn't been raising like crazy (though it's cake and I don't have my HUD so these things are hard to judge) so that's why I just flatted J9s pre. edit- I agree he never has Ts here, I'm just trying to think of what check calls that turn and leads out on the river thats calling a jam. Obv with his exact hand he is, but he isn't c/c with AK on that turn, and he's barreling a flush draw a lot. I just thought he either had a boat or a weird 89 that he decided to bluff the river, and i dont think hes calling with 89 there (or maybe he is after convincing himself hes pot committed). I probably should just shove because lol micros. seniorservice fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jan 9, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 23:32
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Hey guys, I have two spots I want to go through on this hand here. Even though it is NL2 I just want to make sure my thinking is okay: PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com MP ($1.05) Hero (Button) ($2.29) SB ($2) BB ($2.03) UTG ($1.74) Preflop: Hero is Button with Q , KUTG bets $0.06, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.16, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.10 Flop: ($0.35) 9 , 5 , 10 (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.18, UTG calls $0.18 Turn: ($0.71) 10 (2 players)UTG bets $0.18, So I was really confused by his turn donk. One because well he donked and two because of the sizing. I don't think he could have a 9 or T based on this but couldn't decide whether to call or just raise. At the end I decided to call and reevaluate pending on the river card and what he does on the river. Hero calls $0.18 River: ($1.07) 4 (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.52 So now that the river is a blank and he checks, I bet half pot to fold out hands (mostly ace-highs, maybe low pocket pairs?)
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Jan 11, 2012 00:42
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His turn lead looks like a blocking bet, which makes sense for a weak pair like 98s, 77, etc. It also makes sense for him to have a draw like QJ or KQ, he wants to see the river for cheap, doesn't want to check and let you bet .50 or something. Once he checks the river it seems very unlikely he has Tx. I don't see 9x folding to your river bet, but that might not fold to a shove either. We definitely need to bet river at some size because its really easy for him to show up with AJ+ here which makes up a big portion of his range for opening UTG then calling a 3bet. You are thinking along the right lines on the river, the portion of his range that beats us and that we can possibly get him to fold is basically 66-88 and AJ+. Without a lot of information I think it's worth betting big (~full pot) on the river because his range looks really weak. Most of the time he is going to be faced with a hero call decision so I would like to persuade him to fold those, because I can easily see a 2nl player calling half pot with AK or 88 here.
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Jan 11, 2012 01:51
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What do you think about this hand? Could it be viable strategy in games? I was thinking he did a check bet on the flop so I raised 3 times his bet to look legit. Was the amount sufficient too? Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 1 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (7 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com MP1 (t1750) UTG (t4135) Button (t3965) Hero (BB) (t2180) SB (t1190) MP2 (t2510) CO (t4270) Hero's M: 7.27 Preflop: Hero is BB with 9 , 32 folds, MP2 calls t200, 3 folds, Hero checks Flop: (t500) Q , 10, 4 (2 players)Hero checks, MP2 bets t250, Hero raises t625, 1 fold Total pot: t1375
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Jan 19, 2012 23:01
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It isn't a situation you're going to get into too much (people usually don't limp too much as they get better), and it is villain dependent - against an aggressive player who is firing 100%, yeah its alright. Against a passive player you are lighting money on fire. Its a pretty connected flop too, and you aren't going to have many strong raising hands in your range, so from that standpoint its kinda meh too.
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Jan 19, 2012 23:33
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Every decision's "viability" is based on the villain and what he has seen you do. If you want to get better it's very important to give us your reads on the villain when you ask if a hand was played well. If the villain is new to your table or whatever say so.
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Jan 20, 2012 01:05
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Thanks! Will do. I wasn't paying enough attention to that aspect. But what about this one? The villain is a loose aggressive player whom I think would call any bet at any time. Goes in with any suited connectors and any figure (JQKA)+rags. Probably I should've waited until someone else would have taken care of him but this seemed to me like a premium hand. I interpreted his turn bet as a c-bet (which it was) and I reraised him with thinking that I had high card at that moment. Probably I should've placed a bet on the flop seeing that I raised preflop. What do you think? Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 1 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com MP3 (t1115) SB (t1900) UTG (t2620) Button (t2685) MP1 (t2130) Hero (UTG+1) (t2070) MP2 (t1770) CO (t1890) BB (t3820) Hero's M: 13.80 Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A1 fold, Hero bets t400, 3 folds, CO calls t400, 3 folds Flop: (t950) 10 , 7, 6 (2 players)Hero checks, CO checks Turn: (t950) 3 (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets t475, Hero raises t950, CO calls t475 River: (t2850) 9 (2 players)Hero checks, CO checks Total pot: t2850 Results: Hero had K , A (high card, Ace).CO had 9 , J (one pair, nines).Outcome: CO won t2850
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Jan 20, 2012 15:08
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I think you're right not to c-bet that flop as it hits his CO calling range way more than your UTG opening range and, even though you may have the best hand, he'll most likely have a lot of equity if he calls and may even check/raise you off the best hand with a draw if he's aggressive like you say). If you bet the flop and he calls, you're only going to end up check/folding most turns unless you make a pair but even then you're going to find yourself in a nasty spot if the As or Ks peels off. His turn bet wasn't a c-bet though. A c-bet is a continuation bet as the preflop aggressor (which was you). Min-raising his turn bet isn't going to achieve anything though as you're offering him 5:1 pot odds. If he has a pair, he's not folding to a min-raise. If he has a draw, he's not folding to a min-raise. I don't get your logic that you decide to raise him (not re-raise) because you had a high card. I think you mean that you're raising as a bluff because you only have a high card - if so, it doesn't make sense because you have him pegged as a player who will call any bet at any time so it's unlikely he's going to fold regardless of the raise size (within reason). I would personally check/fold flop and if it was checked through I would check/fold turn as over half the deck is going to make life tough for you if you decide to call his turn bet (any club, any spade, any nine, any eight etc.). Just my thoughts.
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Jan 20, 2012 16:03
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Opposite posted:and I reraised him with thinking that I had high card at that moment Why did you feel this? You need to try to assign a range of possible hands that he could have. He's not going to just have any random 2 cards in the deck when he calls preflop, checks flop, and then bets turn when checked to. There are hands that he is much more likely to have than others. You then also have to consider what your bet does against that range. - Does it actually get draws to fold? No. - Does it actually get pairs to fold? Almost definitely not. - Since you think you're ahead of his range of possible hands (you're probably not), will you be extracting value out of worse hands (worse "high cards")? Almost definitely not. So all you're doing with this bet is donating him money when he has a hand, and then getting him to fold his worse hands that you'd beat anyways (except for his small equity of hitting a pair on the river.) This is a very poor play. You should try to have all of this decision-making process in your head when playing, or at least while reviewing. It's important to make a range to see if you're ahead or behind, but you also need to think about how he reacts to your bet in each type of hand he could have. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jan 20, 2012 |
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Jan 20, 2012 17:34
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Live 1/2. I'm sure I played them right, just want to make sure my reasoning is ok. UTG: $100 Hero (SB): $240 Hero has A K in the SBUTG, MP and CO limp, Hero raises to $15, UTG raises to $35, 2 folds. UTG is representing something really strong with a limp-reraise which pretty much commits him. But AKs is over 40% against a range of QQ+ AK and I think I have implied odds postflop (if I spike my ace or king he'll probably stack off, if I miss easy fold). I call. Pot - $70 Flop: T 92Didn't hit, but at worst I've got the nut flush draw, at best I've got two overs and the nut flush draw. I shove because... I'm not sure why. I'm ok with getting it all in since I have more than 33% equity but I don't think there's any chance he folds to a bet or lets me see a turn for free.
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Jan 22, 2012 04:30
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Crovie posted:Live 1/2. I'm sure I played them right, just want to make sure my reasoning is ok. If he does have AK or worse in his range when he limp/reraises, you should not be shipping this flop. Your ship just folds everything you're beating and gets called by everything you're behind. If he's never letting you see the turn for free check so he can bluff with the part of his range you're ahead of.
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Jan 22, 2012 05:31
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Crovie posted:Live 1/2. I'm sure I played them right, just want to make sure my reasoning is ok. But the huge, HUGE mistake you are making is flatting pre.
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Jan 22, 2012 19:40
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Hmm, I didn't think about that (jamming pre). At least, not it being a huge mistake. What do you suppose his range is then? Or is this the right play even supposing his range is something like AK, KK+?
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Jan 25, 2012 07:08
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bleh.
Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Jan 25, 2012 |
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Jan 25, 2012 08:02
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