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Dr. Eat posted:He had T9x fwiw. Kinda figured this would be the result. Guess you done showed me, fella.
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Feb 7, 2012 09:32
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| # ? May 24, 2024 03:19 |
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Unamuno posted:Kinda figured this would be the result. Guess you done showed me, fella. No you see I'm right because I ptr'd him and the results went my way and also i didnt tell anyone that i had his PTR information
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Feb 7, 2012 09:42
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:No you see I'm right because I ptr'd him and the results went my way and also i didnt tell anyone that i had his PTR information Nope, he showed me how awful i am at poker and poker analysis, and how I'm a complete fraud at everything. I'm instructing my parents to send him my WSOP bracelet post-haste. DON'T TRY TO STOP ME OK.
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Feb 7, 2012 09:46
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I thought multi-table regs on stars that lose like 8k over 1.5 million hands actually make a poo poo ton of money from the vip program.
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Feb 7, 2012 18:09
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TheAbortionator posted:I thought multi-table regs on stars that lose like 8k over 1.5 million hands actually make a poo poo ton of money from the vip program.
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Feb 7, 2012 19:04
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From several pages back:TheAbortionator posted:This read means nothing in regards to the hand unless you have a time machine. Do you? I really wanna go see At-the-drive-in. Unrelated to poker, but ATDI is actually having a reunion, and they're playing Coachella this year. On to poker, here's a retarded hand: Live 1/2. Hero ($380 deep) raises to $8 (light for live 1/2, but it had been a small-raising table) in MP with K  Q, weak-tight HJ calls, loose chick with ~$600 calls in the SB, TAG BB with ~$250 calls.4-handed flop (pot ~$28 after rake) comes Q  JTBlinds check to hero who c-bets for $15. Weak-tight HJ folds, both limpers call. 3-handed turn (pot of ~$70) is K , naturally.Turn checks around. River comes K  .SB checks, BB bets $15. Hero: ???
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Feb 10, 2012 12:53
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I probably just call because I'm a huge nit and you're getting like 5:1 to call! I think we can assume SB wouldn't check twice with a full house or better. Do you think BB will call a raise with the eight of spades or lower? How about with an ace of not-spades? I guess it's possible you could make JJ/TT call off an extra $50 or so but I think that's unlikely since they didn't reraise preflop. edit: I think it goes without saying that if you raise and get reraised by either player it's an insta-fold. EngineerSean fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Feb 10, 2012 |
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Feb 10, 2012 14:09
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EngineerSean posted:I probably just call because I'm a huge nit and you're getting like 5:1 to call! For the hands that beat you, I really don't think the TAG over-calls the flop with the 9s drawing to two outs for the straight flush (and potentially drawing dead on the Ks), I think he raises flop with Asxs hands as he wouldn't want the fourth spade to kill any action so the only hands that conceivably beat you are off-suit As hands and how many of those does a TAG call pre with in a multi-way pot? Probably not too many.
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Feb 10, 2012 14:23
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If the BB really is a TAG then that cuts down a lot of the lower AsX combos he should have and weighs is hand towards boats for sure. I'd prob just jam for value expecting him to never find the fold button on a decent boat. Reasoning being that if he won't fold but won't raise again either you win the most from jamming.
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Feb 10, 2012 17:19
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Lord of the Llamas posted:If the BB really is a TAG then that cuts down a lot of the lower AsX combos he should have and weighs is hand towards boats for sure. I'd prob just jam for value expecting him to never find the fold button on a decent boat. Reasoning being that if he won't fold but won't raise again either you win the most from jamming. You know there's 4 to a straight flush on the board right? We should definitely just flat. The problem isn't so much as we think he has a straight flush it's that if we put in a raise here we are repping the straight flush kind of and we aren't getting called by worse.
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Feb 10, 2012 20:56
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:You know there's 4 to a straight flush on the board right? We should definitely just flat. The problem isn't so much as we think he has a straight flush it's that if we put in a raise here we are repping the straight flush kind of and we aren't getting called by worse. People folding boats isn't any 1/2 live game I've ever played in.
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Feb 11, 2012 00:20
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I raised to $50, SB folds, and the TAG repopped it another $75 on top after asking what it would take to qualify for a BBJ. I folded, naturally. TAG shows down A5. Thinking over the hand, I've been leaning more towards what Moose is saying. The SB was kind of a tellbox, and it was obvious she had lost interest in the hand, so the TAG BB was my only real concern, and thinking about it, I don't even know if he'd call a raise there with a boat. He definitely calls when I'm beaten (obv), but while I've never seen it, I think this guy (who leans a bit toward the nitty side, but uses that to bluff on occasion; I've seen him three-barrel before) might be able to find a fold here, but I don't really know. I think if our places were reversed and he was facing a 3-bet raise, he could definitely kick in a boat. Considering it was a relatively small raise of a small bet and it wasn't a three-bet, I'm thinking I may get some crying calls from boats here, but the way he played the hand, I don't see him showing up with boats from how I've seen him play. With QQ, he reraises pre. With JJ, TT, or 9s9x, he MAY smoothcall (probably only with TT), but I would expect him to checkraise hard after my c-bet with a set on a monochrome broadway flop, and after the turn, he would shut down. 9s9x could play this way, with a bit of wariness of the ace, I suppose. With two callers in front, he could easily play KT/KJ/KQ, but he wouldn't necessarily call the flop with KJ/KT if he didn't have the king of spades (which he didn't since it hit the turn). I could see him making the small river bet with a boat, but I don't really see many ways for him to have one there. All in all, his three-bet turned it into a trivial fold of the third nut for me, but it really left me wondering whether a raise is even merited in that spot. Thanks a lot for the input.
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Feb 11, 2012 01:10
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Lord of the Llamas posted:People folding boats isn't any 1/2 live game I've ever played in. Obviously true in general, but if ever there's an exception to this rule, it's this exact spot. It's not just 4 to a straight flush, it's 4 to a OMG ROYAL FLUSH OMG with the ace (ie the card that gets played more than any other) being the card not on board. Maybe you can raise and get value with 76 on a 45677ssss board (though that might still be pushing it), but definitely not here.
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Feb 11, 2012 01:51
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Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. On this board, no one is calling with a vanilla flush, because the best card they could have to make it would be the 8. If I had Tx9x on a T T987 board, I could get a call from the nut flush with a naked A, or possibly even from less (depending on the player and such). On that board, though, I don't see anything weaker than a boat ever calling, and even then, it's not a sure thing.
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Feb 11, 2012 03:26
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Villain is a 20/19 Tag hasn't done anything note worthy (that I noticed) in 60 hands, BB is a huge fish. I look really strong double barreling into two players, especially if one is a huge fish who isn't doing much folding. King nine isn't in the tags range and KK/QQ is incredibly unlikely as he didn't 3 bet preflop and there is only one combo of each. I'm pretty sure his value range consists of J10s, 33, and KQ, and I'm drawing to 4 outs or a chop if this is a raise for value. I am somewhat deep with villain so is calling here and shoving our four outer if it gets there a decent plan? Also is this what people are talking about when they say relative hand strength? When villains value range has me crushed and my top two pair hand is essentially a bluff catcher/4 outer. PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 3 Hero (UTG): $51.10 CO: $25.00 BTN: $36.10 SB: $25.85 BB: $39.31 SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25 Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has K:diamond: Q:heart: Hero raises to $0.75, fold, BTN calls $0.75, fold, BB calls $0.50 Flop: ($2.35, 3 players) K:spade: Q:diamond: 3:heart: BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, fold Turn: ($5.35, 2 players) 9:spade: Hero bets $3.00[, BTN raises to $6.75, HERO?????? I'd also like to note that this hand happened during a sweat session, and am in no way taking credit for a big lay down. But it took me a day to see why it was right, and wanted to confirm the reasons for it. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 11, 2012 |
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Feb 11, 2012 19:58
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TheAbortionator posted:Villain is a 20/19 Tag hasn't done anything note worthy (that I noticed) in 60 hands, BB is a huge fish. With villain defending the button and having those stats, albeit over a small sample, his value range can occasionally include hands worse than ours as well as chops. I also think he should have more than a reasonable number of semibluffs, since the 9 can give him things like pr+sd, pr+fd, pr+sd+fd, sd+fd. I think he'd have fewer air hands that float since this flop should hit our UTG opening range pretty hard, especially with that sizing.I'm certainly not folding top two on the turn and I'm almost certainly ch/c most rivers because I think it's a spot where it's conceivable villain is in the process of value-cutting himself, and if he is semibluffing the turn, he might feel compelled to fire at whiffs when we check.
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Feb 11, 2012 20:20
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The pot is going to be 18.85 on the river, and I will probably have to stack off if I plan on check calling any blank river.
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Feb 11, 2012 20:39
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TheAbortionator posted:The pot is going to be 18.85 on the river, and I will probably have to stack off if I plan on check calling any blank river. I agree with Teppec and how are you going to have to stack off when he has $28 left and the pot is $19? If he shoves we can just fold, depending on the river maybe we can fold if he bets.
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Feb 11, 2012 20:48
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It would be spade rivers we fold correct? And what size bet should we be willing to call on the river?
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Feb 11, 2012 20:57
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TheAbortionator posted:It would be spade rivers we fold correct? And what size bet should we be willing to call on the river? Say the pot is an even $20 and he bets $10 then you're getting 3:1 so you need 33% equity against his range to break even. If you think he has enough bluffs or worse value hands more than 1/3 of the time then it's +EV to call. It really depends on what the river is and his bet-sizing that will prompt you to figure out whether you have enough equity against his range vs the pot odds you're getting. On a non-spade blank turn (e.g. 6d), I'm probably calling almost all bets. :EDIT: ...just adding that an ace on the river isn't going to be a problem unless he has exactly AsQs (it's less likely that he calls with AQo with a player behind him still to act). Interesting post below... I think this is where in-game decisions need to be scrutinized and Stoved during session reviews so that you can improve upon them. As I said, I would definitely have been inclined to call almost every river whilst playing but the range below looks pretty good so you're not doing as well as I initially thought. vampire fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Feb 11, 2012 |
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Feb 11, 2012 21:24
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TheAbortionator posted:It would be spade rivers we fold correct? And what size bet should we be willing to call on the river? I probably fold on all spades except Qs obviously, any J any T and thats probably it. I probably call basically any bet on river that isnt a shove and isnt one of those rivers I said. I'm not sure actually. I think it might be a fold on all rivers that don't boat us. On turn we can get semibluffed somewhat often just because he's going to get here with like QTss or QJss and be like welp I have outs I raise. But he raised so small that I'm not even sure he can have any semibluffs anymore? He's not floating with air the worst hand he probably flats flop is like AJ and I don't even know if he does that. The only time it raises turn is if it's AJss. But again his sizing is really inconsistent with a semibluff. He can still have 33 for a set and maybe 99. Q9/K9 for 2pair definitely not. KQ yes. He doesn't have to raise this really dry flop with any of his monsters. JT of course plays this way and is probably the most likely combinatorically and otherwise. So our range looks like this now: {33,KQs,JTs,JcTs,JdTs,JhTd,JhTs,JsTc,JsTd,JsTh} with some combos of JT taken out because I'm not sure if he flats JTo otb. He can. Obviously this range obliterates us, (we're 11.6%) so what happens if he can have all the semibluffs? Board: Ks Qd 3h 9s Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 72.841% 70.34% 02.50% 619 22.00 { 33, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, KQs, QsJs, QsTs, JTs, JcTs, JdTs, JhTd, JhTs, JsTc, JsTd, JsTh } Hand 1: 27.159% 24.66% 02.50% 217 22.00 { KdQh } We're doing badly but we're getting just about 4 to 1 to call turn so we only need 20%. But there's still a street to play. Are we going to make mistakes on blank rivers? Anytime a spade hits we are dead if we weren't already. On nonspades are we going to fold? Even if he bluffs 100% of the time when his semibluffs missed can we call? There's only 5 combos of semibluffs, and that's being very generous. Some quick mental math tells me that even if he's bluffing every time with all his semibluffs we just can't make a profitable call. What about when we boat up? We have 4 outs to the best boat. 8.7% of the time we bink and stack off (very likely). We've got 11.22 to 1 on his whole stack with this turn bet. That makes boating up very slightly profitable (8.1% [i think] we have to stack off). So basically it looks like we should call turn and fold all rivers because of how unlikely it is to be facing a semibluff or pure bluff (lol) here. We've got the equity when we river a boat, we've got some amount of equity from when he doesnt have it and checks behind river, and we're getting a pretty sick immediate price. I think if the turn was like a Ts or a Js I would be waaaay more inclined to do something besides this line. On those cards he can turn a lot more equity and worse hands that can raise turn.
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Feb 11, 2012 21:27
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I was thinking during the hand that a semibluff is unlikely just because of the fish. I know if I had AJ/A10 spades in that spot I would be calling on implied odds alone because of the fish coming along and drawing to the second best hand. I would also be worried about the fish having already got there with all the J10s happily in his range, or me having already got there as J10s is definitely in mine. But I was thinking today that I might be giving the guy way to much credit. (sixty hands and he hadn't done anything that I noticed as overly exploitable, but most of my attention was garnered towards the BB) TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Feb 11, 2012 |
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Feb 11, 2012 21:54
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TheAbortionator posted:I was thinking during the hand that a semibluff is unlikely just because of the fish. I know if I had AJ/A10 spades in that spot I would be calling on implied odds alone because of the fish coming along and drawing to the second best hand. I would also be worried about the fish having already got there with all the J10s happily in his range, or me having already got there as J10s is definitely in mine. Didn't the fish fold on the flop?
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Feb 11, 2012 22:04
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nope
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Feb 11, 2012 22:04
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TheAbortionator posted:nope BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, fold
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Feb 11, 2012 22:15
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well, I'm an idiot
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Feb 11, 2012 22:17
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I was thinking about that moose, if the turn had been Js or Ts, do you lean towards 3betting and getting it in? I would think he'll have enough value hands and combo draws that he can and should stack with worse pretty frequently.
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Feb 12, 2012 15:07
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Teppec posted:I was thinking about that moose, if the turn had been Js or Ts, do you lean towards 3betting and getting it in? I would think he'll have enough value hands and combo draws that he can and should stack with worse pretty frequently. Most likely yes and probably for mostly this reason. We're not super thrilled about it but we have enough of an edge. Board: Ks Qd 3h Js Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 55.925% 48.78% 07.14% 601 88.00 { KdQh } Hand 1: 44.075% 36.93% 07.14% 455 88.00 { JJ, 33, AsQs, ATs, KJs+, QJs, QsTs, KJo+, QJo }
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Feb 12, 2012 20:01
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I don't think you can remove JT from his range either. J or T is definitely a better card than the 9.
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Feb 14, 2012 00:30
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EngineerSean posted:I don't think you can remove JT from his range either. J or T is definitely a better card than the 9. That range is if turn had been a Js/Ts, villain raises us, and we bet/3bet/get it in. That's why it doesn't include JT. There's no reason, unless we know villain to be a spaz and/or VERY bad, to give him a raise/4bet stack range that includes JT on the turn when the turn is either the J or T of
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Feb 14, 2012 17:20
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Merge, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. BTN: $65.01 (130 bb)<------unknown 32/32 has 3bet last 3 btns but only 23 hands. Hero (SB): $50.00 (100 bb) BB: $12.89 (25.8 bb) MP: $40 (80 bb)<------fish CO: $64.92 (129.8 bb)<------bad reg Hero is SB with 9 9MP posts BB OOP, MP checks, CO raises to $2.25, BTN raises to $7, Hero raises to $17.12 I think folding in this situation can't be right giving that they are both full of poo poo so often. Didn't want to call and play a guessing game. Probably c/fold incorrectly on turn so often. Just wondering if people agree 4b/c is best? e:Also I have not 3bet since btn has been at the table. AARO fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 16, 2012 |
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Feb 16, 2012 21:08
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I think 4b/c is definitely better than shoving because it lets you get away from the hand sometimes like if CO shoves and then BTN shoves. I don't like calling preflop. This play should be fine, but we're not thrilled when we get it in.
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Feb 16, 2012 21:20
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It's probably not the worst spot to get it in if co or btn ships it though, since it's a great spot for CO to attack the poster and btn to attack co's iso. I agree we aren't thrilled, but I don't hate getting it in either. Only really sucks if they both end up shipping like zero said, but we can easily throw it away in that spot.
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Feb 17, 2012 14:53
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Non-standard hand discussion here. This one is about table talk. Effective stacks $300. UTG limps. MP limps. Hero limps behind with K 9.Villain limps on the button. Villain is one of the better regs at the card room. Has multiple gears, very slippery, but generally gives me credit and doesn't get too far out of line with me. SB folds. BB checks. ~$10 pot, post-rake. Flop comes 5 43.Checks to hero, who bets $10. Villain calls, all others fold. ~$30 pot, turn card is the 2 .Hero bets $20, button calls. River is 8 . Brick!Now, at this point, I know he has either the straight or a flush draw. In this kind of situation, there's just nothing else in his range. The problem is betting this river with nothing is loving retarded, but if I check, he is likely to bet his busted flush draws at me. To simplify the situation and preserve any equity I may have, I sigh, say, "Well, I guess we're chopping," and check to him to prevent him from bluffing his busted flush draws. Unless he has a 4, 2, or 8 with a flush draw, I'll take the pot when he checks behind. Most of the time, though, it's moot, because I'm losing to a straight. Anyway, he checks behind and shows A7o for the wheel, and I muck, while receiving a lot of strange looks. So, my question is this: Would you classify this as simple creative table talk, or angle-shooting? I don't think there's anything angle-shooty about it, personally, but at least one person I talked to felt differently. Another jokingly called me an angle shooter, but quickly told me he was just loving with me and he didn't see anything wrong with it. Therefore, I come to PITR to seek the opinion of the biggest degenerates I know: Am I an angle-shooting douchenozzle? It is up to you to decide.
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Feb 19, 2012 05:17
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AmnesiaLab posted:Non-standard hand discussion here. This one is about table talk. It's not angle shooting. There is nothing against table talk. It's perfectly fine to do what you did and honestly, I don't blame you.
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Feb 19, 2012 06:52
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If you're in the US: no, not angleshooting If you're in Europe: possibly, also possibly not allowed. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Feb 19, 2012 |
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Feb 19, 2012 06:55
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Strong Sauce posted:If you're in the US: no, not angleshooting What!? I thought it was really pretty clean. In fact, if the guy got a read off of him saying that, he'd have even more reason to bet. The guy was kind of dumb for not betting there with the second (I guess technically third) nuts even with the rake and it's in no way an angle shoot.
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Feb 19, 2012 14:01
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Strong Sauce posted:If you're in the US: no, not angleshooting It would have been fine in the UK.
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Feb 19, 2012 15:36
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Any table talk works both ways. It's just a matter of figuring out what the purpose is and how to disappoint your opponent. That sort of comment with chopping happens all the time at the local card room, though, and I've never seen another instance where the person making the comment wasn't being honest, so I figured it was relatively safe. If I had been somewhere that I wasn't known, I would have shot for retard points by claiming I mucked because I only had the six and he had the ace, and then I'd congratulate him on his ace-high straight. 
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Feb 19, 2012 16:35
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| # ? May 24, 2024 03:19 |
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EngineerSean posted:What!? I thought it was really pretty clean. In fact, if the guy got a read off of him saying that, he'd have even more reason to bet. The guy was kind of dumb for not betting there with the second (I guess technically third) nuts even with the rake and it's in no way an angle shoot. While I don't believe what he's done is in anyway an angleshoot, several places, mostly in Europe, have house rules against "coffeehousing" so if he had said that in a place where this rule is in effect it is probably illegal and his hand can be declared dead. Mexal posted:It would have been fine in the UK.
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Feb 20, 2012 02:48
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