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Dr. Eat posted:if he does put me on a hand like tens-jacks (which calling flop and turn is fine with against described villain), and he has a worse queen than me, than yea he should be checking one street. Perry Bible Fellowship posted:
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Mar 1, 2012 17:48
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I'm not sure exactly what to do in this spot but i figured I would post my thoughts anyways. If someone more qualified could lend a hand that would be appreciated cause the spot does seem pretty gross. I think 4 betting/folding or just folding is best. If the guy is 3 betting as light as you think, hes probably going to fold down to premiums. Also 4-betting usually folds out the fish, protecting his stack for later. Also I noted your original reason for flatting was to keep the fish in, but keep in mind your skill advantage shrinks along side the STP ratios. Don't get me wrong your still going to have an edge over him, but is it enough that its going to be worth guessing for your stack against the reg? On the flop you gotta remember that not only is he c-betting, but hes c-betting into you and a fish oop. So I would call if hes shown to be a bad aggresive player, but against a competent aggressive player I would fold. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Mar 1, 2012 |
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Mar 1, 2012 19:41
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Just got back from a live session of 1/3, had a couple spots I was unsure of. Effective stacks $200, I'm in the BB with Ah Ad, 2 limpers and small blind calls, I make it 18 and get 2 limpers call, SB folds. Pot is $50 after rake. Flop comes something like 279 all diamonds. I bet out $25 and the first limper immediately shoves for his remaining stack of about $150 or so, other guys folds. Is this a spot I can ever fold? The guy pretty much just sat down and I have no reads on him.
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Mar 2, 2012 13:59
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Trivial call because you have Ad.
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Mar 2, 2012 14:24
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olin posted:Trivial call because you have Ad. This pretty much says it all. Never ever folding for another 50bb with nfd and toppest pair. Expect to also be far far ahead of villain a decent percentage of the time.
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Mar 2, 2012 14:59
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Dr. Eat posted:Another hand from my Cambodia live poker adventure! Depends heavily on how you've been playing, have you made any big calls? Been folding a lot post flop? Shown down any marginal hands? Your hand is pretty much at the top of your range and he should expect you to fold it, so if he is really good LAG and you have a straightforward TAG image then you should be calling because he really can't expect you to call with many 1 pair hands, nor to have many hands better than 1 pair. Really flow/villain/image dependent, if your default was to fold here you wouldn't be making mistakes too often. Don't show your hand, if you show then fold its just retarded cause he can abuse you so bad in this spot. Showing is just terrible. Dr. Eat posted:math was off whatever. and there is nothing wrong with folding turn when you know a guy is likely to shove river and make you play for >300bb with TPTK. i don't understand how calling flop with TPTK/backdoor NF draw is bad at all, but not thinking it's good enough to call down three streets with in a 3bet pot. especially when he knows that i know he's aggro. TheAbortionator posted:I'm not sure exactly what to do in this spot but i figured I would post my thoughts anyways. If someone more qualified could lend a hand that would be appreciated cause the spot does seem pretty gross.
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Mar 2, 2012 16:45
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TheAbortionator posted:
An important concept that Baluga Whale talked about is that fish have timers over their heads and will basically stack off to someone when the timer runs out (like they can't fold overpair to obvious straight or flush/they hit trips with J2 on T22 vs someone else's TT). Perserving the fish's stack shouldn't be anyone's goal. Try to play as many hands with them as you can so you're the one they blow off their stack to! quote:Also I noted your original reason for flatting was to keep the fish in, but keep in mind your skill advantage shrinks along side the STP ratios. Don't get me wrong your still going to have an edge over him, but is it enough that its going to be worth guessing for your stack against the reg? quote:On the flop you gotta remember that not only is he c-betting, but hes c-betting into you and a fish oop. So I would call if hes shown to be a bad aggresive player, but against a competent aggressive player I would fold. He should be c-betting like all of his 3betting range on this flop too. Ranma posted:Depends heavily on how you've been playing, have you made any big calls? Been folding a lot post flop? Shown down any marginal hands? Your hand is pretty much at the top of your range and he should expect you to fold it, so if he is really good LAG and you have a straightforward TAG image then you should be calling because he really can't expect you to call with many 1 pair hands, nor to have many hands better than 1 pair. Really flow/villain/image dependent, if your default was to fold here you wouldn't be making mistakes too often. quote:Don't show your hand, if you show then fold its just retarded cause he can abuse you so bad in this spot. Showing is just terrible. quote:It seems like every time you post a hand, your reasoning behind your actions is extremely flawed and you are pretty aggressive versus people who give you advice. Not sure how you go from "puts me on TT or JJ" -> "checks a worse Q". The "he can think I have" TT-JJ comment was like...he knows he has showdown value and I will call 2 streets with medium strength hands but I can fold bottom of my range and call with top when he goes for 3 streets...unless I believe he is triple barreling. If it was a dumb comment oh well. 3barrelling some of his preflop bluffs like KQ/QT is turning made hands into bluffs and unless he's a really good hand reader (which I wasn't sure of at the time) he probably won't do and just try to get to showdown. I think this is pretty standard leveling/hand valuation IDK how it violates fundamental therom of poker or whatever. It's pretty standard to go for 2 streets of value with TPTK/overpair vs. good opponents. quote:comments on abortionator's reply edit: results I folded, he told me later he had aces and there wasn't anything else he could have there and said it was a great turn card for him. oh well. going back in the fall probably. cheap beer and the internet was pretty good. plus live poker! really only need to make 2k/month there to live like huge king. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Mar 3, 2012 |
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Mar 3, 2012 06:06
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Before I say anything I'd just like to note, in no way do I think I know better then you or anyone here. I just like posting what I would do because it almost always gets torn to shreds and I am almost always better player for it. Albeit with slightly less self esteem, which is ok because I gave up any pride I had years ago when I started playing Magic the Gathering again. Also I posted that gif because I figured as long as we were just empty quoting appeals to authority without explaining how it relates to the subject at hand, why not go with the greatest authority of them all. Dr. Eat posted:An important concept that Baluga Whale talked about is that fish have timers over their heads and will basically stack off to someone when the timer runs out (like they can't fold overpair to obvious straight or flush/they hit trips with J2 on T22 vs someone else's TT). Perserving the fish's stack shouldn't be anyone's goal. My thinking on this was by four betting the fish folds, and we prevent him from getting stacked vrs the reg if the reg actually has a legit hand. (thus preserving the timer over his head). I still think this reasoning is solid, but now realize this is outweighed by our huge implied odds being so deep and all and one of the players being such a terrible player and all.
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Mar 3, 2012 07:15
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TheAbortionator posted:Also I posted that gif because I figured as long as we were just empty quoting appeals to authority without explaining how it relates to the subject at hand, why not go with the greatest authority of them all. quote:My thinking on this was by four betting the fish folds, and we prevent him from getting stacked vrs the reg if the reg actually has a legit hand. quote:I still think this reasoning is solid, but now realize this is outweighed by our huge implied odds being so deep and all and one of the players being such a terrible player and all. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Mar 3, 2012 |
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Mar 3, 2012 07:37
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Dr. Eat posted:you really want to spend 50-60bbs to do this? plus another 50+ bbs if we get flatted by either player and need to cbet? I don't think its nearly that costly. The only way its costing us 50bbs+ is if we get 5-bet and we fold every time. We do win a fair amount of the time with just the 4 bet. And just to be clear I'm not defending 4 betting in this spot I get that its wrong (now) given how deep we are and how good our hand is. But I still don't understand why folding out the fish vs the reg isn't something we should be trying to do. Dr. Eat posted:There is no reason to ever try and protect a fish. Dr. Eat posted:An important concept that Baluga Whale talked about is that fish have timers over their heads and will basically stack off to someone when the timer runs out TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Mar 3, 2012 |
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Mar 3, 2012 08:26
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It costs me 50bbs to 4bet (Villain 3bet me ~40, I would be 4betting to 130-160). So yea I would have to spend at least 50bbs to 4bet for something that doesn't easily make us money and could potentially cost us a ton. And it really is just a 4bet bluff with blockers, something you shouldn't be doing at live 1/2 especially considering I can get 5bet or even flatted(!) with the stack depths. Btw when I said cost, I just meant how much I had to use not that I would lose 50bbs every time I did it. It's really crazy to try and just to be spewing to prevent everyone from playing pots with a fish so that he doesn't lose money to them. When I talked about re-isoing it's so you get to play pots with the fish and to take away the reg's dead money since he is likely raising a fish light and will fold. The fish will lose his money no matter what, it is pretty much retarded to use 20% of my stack to slow down how fast he loses even assuming both he and the reg both fold often enough that the 4bet itself has a neutral expectation. Also you can't get the fish's stack if he folds pre.  edit: can you give me a hand history where you "protected" a fish pre or how it's ever profitable in the long-run? i'm just having trouble imagining how a game like that plays out....you want to play postflop with them where they play fit/fold or stack off to you in a retarded way. you're also misinterpretaing the baluga whale quote. he was talking about how you can put yourself in a marginal spot with them so you get their $$$, not that you should put yourself into poo poo spots with regs (3bet/4bet bluffing wars) and not play the waiting game with a fish (e.g. a fish does something like openshove their last 67bb in the SB and you call in BB with a marginal hand that is ahead of their range because they are a spazz and may leave the table soon/get called by someone else next time they shove so this is your best chance to get their stack). also fish are usually limping live and online, when a fish raises they at least have a hand, you shouldn't be bluffing against them preflop. our goal is to get to see a flop with them even if we have a marginal hands. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Mar 4, 2012 |
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Mar 3, 2012 08:44
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I saw it in a DC video and have been misapplying the concept. The way I understood it was one of two things usually happens. 1. I take the pot with the 4-bet. 2. Reg 5 bets, I fold, fish folds. Having the fish stay at the table rather then being in a spot where he might bust ads to the EV of the 4 bet bluff. I get why this is bad now when we have a hand with real showdown value.
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Mar 3, 2012 09:31
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See this thread does have value. Yeah, rewatch the hands where he talks about it. Of course winning money pre is good but the best possible outcome is you getting the stack of the fish cause 100bb or whatever retarded amount they buyin for > always greater than the amount that you'll win pre. And most of your profits will come from fish who are going to play until they bust and they'll often only have 2-3 buyins on the site, not regs 3/4/5betting to grind out their 2bb/100 + RB while practicing strict BRM.
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Mar 3, 2012 09:49
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Dr. Eat posted:It costs me 50bbs to 4bet (Villain 3bet me ~40, I would be 4betting to 130-160). So yea I would have to spend at least 50bbs to 4bet for something that doesn't easily make us money and could potentially cost us a ton. And it really is just a 4bet bluff with blockers, something you shouldn't be doing at live 1/2 especially considering I can get 5bet or even flatted(!) with the stack depths. Btw when I said cost, I just meant how much I had to use not that I would lose 50bbs every time I did it. Your 4bet sizing is off - you are in position. Anything over 120 is probably a mistake, and I would go around 100. If he wants to call your 4bet light and play out of position versus a nutted range with an SPR of 3, well poo poo let him but you're gonna do nasty things to him.
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Mar 4, 2012 18:41
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Yeah I screwed up the math by assuming the fish had already called the 3bet. Though if a 4bet gets flatted OOP live by a good player not deep enough to setmine I think my eardrums explode from how loud alarm bells go off. I did see some really absurd poo poo when me and another reg fought over this fish who never folded, ever (the guy I bet 3 streets with 66 for value): Villain (a Scandinavian reg who is very aggro and plays this game for a living) opens UTG to 10, fish calls, I raise to 35 from SB, he 4bets too 100, fish calls, I ship 400, he folds (later said he had Q8s) fish calls board runs out ten high I show an ace and the fish mucks before I can show my other card. Another story: back in Seoul also saw a guy lose his first 1k buyin in 20minutes, then rebuy. He limps UTG, guy calls, old guy raises 15, btn 3bets to 50, whale calls, 2nd limper back-raise ships 200, original raiser calls, btn 4bets to 400, whale calls, old guy jams either flop or turn, whale calls. 63x > AA > QQ > JJ so the whale gets his buyin back plus a little more. Double floated then called with just a gut shot...was insanely sick. Later in the night played the biggest pot of my life at the time against him...800bbs would've quit poker had I lost it (posted it earlier in thread). Sorry for the BBV kinda delirious from 14 hour Sunday Session. Some other hands from today where me and another reg played like maniacs to fight over a whale. Playing like every hand where he was in blinds or had limped. I think we each had >40 VPIPs as long as the guy was at the table cause of the 'timer principle': http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1667310 - on skype J9s guy told me later "whale was in COLD CALL 3bet mode" http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1667313 - also vs. J9s guy (30/22 3 AF 4AF on river over 400 hands) thoughts on this hand? I should have bet more on each street (at least making it like 2.25 or 2.5 after whale open limped the CO) but on river he's aggro enough to just be forcing me off a chop when he bets the river right? Though the whale eventually got up to $400 from the 50 he started with and the 200 he had in the 2nd hand he of course managed to spew it all off...it is hard to keep your stack playing 85/20 in 6max. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Mar 5, 2012 |
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Mar 5, 2012 06:15
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So been a while since I've played poker and found myself at a home game at the home of a friend of a friend. Just nine players at the table. This is pretty early in the game and blinds are 200/400. My stack size is about 12000. I wasn't realy paying attention that closely, since blinds relative to stack were so high. I have six people limp into my blind. I've already established that everyone follows a relative strategy of limping preflop with any one face card and calling to the river with middle pair. I have 3  5 spades in the big blind and I call.The flop is 2 9q and I throw out a 2800 chip bet into the pot, doubling the pot. I get two callers.Turn is q  and I push. I'm called by Q9. (He limped Q9 from UTG + 1) Game over.Basically, looking back at this, I think I should've just pushed the flop. He probably calls with two pairs. He said he would have, but at least this way I put all my money in with the best hand. Just curious about thoughts on this. Is my analysis right. Everyone at the table was terrible, so I figure the times I am ahead are far more than the ones I am behind on that flop.
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Mar 8, 2012 01:17
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In a game like you describe your play is probably fine and any queen probably calls turn and you beat most of them
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Mar 8, 2012 01:27
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Stefan Prodan posted:In a game like you describe your play is probably fine and any queen probably calls turn and you beat most of them Yeah, I got invited back. It is a pretty cheap buy in, but I feel like this can end up being beer money for me. I mean, only one other guy ever raised preflop besides me. And people calling flops and turns, then folding rivers. I suck at poker, but even I can beat that game.  Let me ask though, would pushing the flop have been bad there? I felt like the flop I am ahead most of the time, and the turn is always going to be worse for me. And honestly, I was just hoping to push everyone out on the flop so I could get a nice pot. It seems to me that the real edge in these games is getting past the lower levels, where blinds relative to chip size become significant, since people don't really how to calculate play there. I don't know why I care, this is the extent of my poker play nowadays, and the prize isn't that significant, but it is always nice to learn.
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Mar 8, 2012 02:11
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Sataere posted:Yeah, I got invited back. It is a pretty cheap buy in, but I feel like this can end up being beer money for me. I mean, only one other guy ever raised preflop besides me. And people calling flops and turns, then folding rivers. I suck at poker, but even I can beat that game. It's hard for it to be "bad" exactly because we have a flush and we win most of the time but "not the best play" definitely describes it. We want them to call on flop with a pretty wide range so that we can shove turn and get them to like sighhh-call it off with a fd + gutter or something. We win the pot enough if we just shove but we're not trying to win the pot we're trying to win the tournament.
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Mar 8, 2012 04:28
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:It's hard for it to be "bad" exactly because we have a flush and we win most of the time but "not the best play" definitely describes it. We want them to call on flop with a pretty wide range so that we can shove turn and get them to like sighhh-call it off with a fd + gutter or something. That makes sense. At the time, I thought how I was playing the hand was correct, but the way the tournament was playing, I started second guessing myself. Now considering how deep the stacks are there, and how many people are already in the hand, should I consider a bigger raise on that flop before shoving the turn?
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Mar 8, 2012 15:16
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Sataere posted:That makes sense. At the time, I thought how I was playing the hand was correct, but the way the tournament was playing, I started second guessing myself. Now considering how deep the stacks are there, and how many people are already in the hand, should I consider a bigger raise on that flop before shoving the turn? Nah, we already made it pot sized and I don't think an overbet does much good for us. Plus stack sizes are perfectly suited to betting flop and shoving turn so I think you played it best.
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Mar 8, 2012 18:42
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:Nah, we already made it pot sized and I don't think an overbet does much good for us. Plus stack sizes are perfectly suited to betting flop and shoving turn so I think you played it best. I like it. Pot the flop shove any non diamond turn as the number of hands with a high diamond or non full house queens vastly outnumber the queen containing two pairs. Sucks that he had a full house.
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Mar 9, 2012 02:54
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com CO ($3.41) Button ($10) SB ($10.20) Hero (BB) ($9.90) UTG ($18.08) UTG+1 ($5.57) MP1 ($10.10) MP2 ($19.47) Preflop: Hero is BB with 5  , J1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.20 Flop: ($0.95) 8 , 4, 9 (3 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70, 1 fold Turn: ($2.35) 7 (2 players)Hero bets $1.68, 1 fold Total pot: $2.35 | Rake: $0.11 Lot of things going on in this hand that I would like help with, please! Preflop: Does that preflop call make any sense at all? I feel like I should be able to do some math here to figure out whether paying 2BB to be in a three-way flop with a 9BB pot is a good idea here, but I have no idea where to start. It feels like it's a mistake overall and not a worthwhile move, but how can I actually figure this out, definitively? Flop: I think my flop play is actually okay: I want to see more cards, and IIRC I have about a 1/3 chance of hitting a flush draw on the turn or river, so $0.70 feels doable here. Again, can you guys help quantify this? What would MP1 have to bet here to make you fold? Turn: Yeah I don't think I could have been more obvious about my flush if I tried. If I had Ac or Kc I definitely would have checked here, but I was terrified that he had a higher club, and I didn't want him to see the river with just Ac. In hindsight, this doesn't seem like a very reasonable fear, compared to what would have almost certainly been a much fatter pot if I had just checked. What's the right play here? Ashenai fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Mar 12, 2012 |
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Mar 12, 2012 09:31
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Nevermind, I'll just wait for better advice too.
Maha fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Mar 12, 2012 |
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Mar 12, 2012 11:48
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Question about a line I had from a live session on Saturday. Was playing 5-10 at the Borgata. V1 (2500) - directly to my left, old guy who I've seen show down Ax loads, donk bet 2nd pair loads and call off an 1100 shove on the flop with KQo after a three bet pre-flop. It was obvious the guy had AA. I have never seen him re-raise. V2 (2500) - seems to have a very wide calling range and chases a lot of draws. Have only seen him 3bet pre-flop with QQ+, haven't seen him re-raise post flop Hero (1600): I haven't shown down many hands and have played a relatively tight game. Hero on button with 4 5V1 in SB V2 in BB Guy in middle position raises to 35. I call on button. V1 calls in SB. V2 calls in BB. Pot: 140 - Flop: Q J 5V1 raises to 75, V2 calls 75, Original raiser folds, Hero raises to 240 V1 calls, V2 calls. Pot: 860 - Turn: 8 V1 checks, V2 checks, Hero bets (fixed!) to 500 Now here's my question. Was I right to raise to 500 there? Should I have shoved to protect against any other draws and not give anyone implied odds? Mexal fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Mar 12, 2012 |
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Mar 12, 2012 17:22
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Ashenai posted:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Calling preflop is terribad. You can forget about the immediate odds when you consider your hand has terrible reverse implied odds. First of all you are out of position so its going to be really really hard to win the pot without making the best hand. You will probably be good on most jack high boards but when you are not its going to cost you a ton to find out. So really your trying to flop a flush or two pair or trips then get paid with them. And even then you are gonna have the second best flush, second best two pair (or counterfeited), second best trip jacks some of the time when you get it in. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 12, 2012 |
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Mar 12, 2012 17:33
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Mexal posted:Question about a line I had from a live session on Saturday. Given your description of the villains in this equation, I would really rather just take a free card here. V1 will cling to any piece and likely has at least a jack, while V2 could have your club draw dominated and likes to call a lot. Either way, you need to improve to win the hand. In a multiway pot against people who like to call, I just don't think juicing the pot with a draw is a good idea, because you can easily find better spots where they'll call while you're way ahead. If your two pair and trip outs are good and your flush outs are clean, you've got up to 33% equity here. If your draw is dominated and someone has a bigger pair, though, you've got more like 12% equity. And it could be worse than that. Aggressive play is all well and good, but you have one villain who likes to chase and one who can't fold to an obvious monster. I feel like as played, you could turn your hand into a bluff and knock V2 off his hand at the river if he didn't hit something serious, but V1 is going to call like a retard regardless. These aren't the kind of villains you want to target for aggressive stealing with weak hands. These are the guys you want in the pot when you have a monster, because they're going to pay you off. Don't get me wrong, I like the flop raise, but you got (fairly predictably) called twice. These guys are probably gonna keep calling if you keep betting, and your equity just isn't all that huge. Checking behind will mean you win less most of the time when you hit, but most of the time, you're not going to hit. I don't like shoving the turn because these are both great guys for action when you have something bigger, and you should be able to find a better spot to take their money. Juice it when you have a big edge, not a small one; they'll come along anyway. Here, I'd rather take the free card. There's still plenty of value to be had at the river, because if you check this turn, V1 is gonna be able to convince himself you were making a play, and he'll call any reasonable bet on the river to play the sheriff. That's what it sounds like to me, anyway. Sure, you can juice it, and you might get there. If you really want to gamboooooooool with this hand, I don't think you have any real fold equity at the turn unless you jam, so just stick it in and hope for the best. I don't like it, though. I'd rather put the money in when I'm more likely to be winning, especially against these villains. You should get plenty of better shots to take a piece of their stacks.
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Mar 12, 2012 19:08
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If you're going to raise the flop, you need to do it much, much bigger. You want this pot heads up. As is, you have a decent chance of being against a bigger pair and a bigger flush draw, and your equity is just terrible. Oh and you don't raise to 500 on the turn, you bet 500.
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Mar 12, 2012 19:54
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Honest question from a newbie: is there any merit to actually raising this flop against the described villains? Your raise is a semi-bluff and the reason a raise like this would be made is: (a) Fold equity. Given V1's description, do you ever think he will lead flop and fold to a raise? If he calls, you are probably behind. Maybe he led the flop with a draw too, but if so is he going to fold to your raise? He'll fold on the river if he misses, but it's going to cost you a large bet or two to find out. (b) If called, you still have decent equity and a chance to hit the best hand. With V1 leading flop, and V2 calling, even if you hit your flush there's a good chance it isn't best. I just don't know if you have enough equity to build the pot here given these two villains. Yeah you could also hit two pair or trips, but it doesn't seem like enough to warrant a raise. Am I wrong for just wanting to call the flop with these two villains and playing in position for the remainder of the hand?
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Mar 12, 2012 20:26
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Mind_Taker posted:Honest question from a newbie: is there any merit to actually raising this flop against the described villains? Your raise is a semi-bluff and the reason a raise like this would be made is: I need to clarify something. V1 isn't a calling station. He likes to donk bet 2nd pair then he reevaluates if someone shows strength. Probably should have put that in the read. It's one of the reasons I raised so that I could take control of the pot. I did think about checking behind but decided not to. Second, V2 is probably only in because of V1. If V1 folds, V2 no longer has the odds to continue to chase his draw. It's definitely not the ideal line which is why I wanted to check it.
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Mar 12, 2012 20:30
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Ashenai posted:Preflop: Does that preflop call make any sense at all? I feel like I should be able to do some math here to figure out whether paying 2BB to be in a three-way flop with a 9BB pot is a good idea here, but I have no idea where to start. It feels like it's a mistake overall and not a worthwhile move, but how can I actually figure this out, definitively? Look up Mathematics of no limit hold'em on deuces cracked. It tells you how to calculate stuff like this directly. It's important to keep in mind that the math for particular opens gets really fuzzy because there are two opponent hand ranges here, and there are a million and different flops and actions that could be taken. The easiest way to see how profitable these types of hands are is to filter your hold em manager down to you calling a raiser and a caller from the BB. Look at the ranges and where the end up profitable (you will need a super huge sample size to accomplish this.) This hand isn't strong enough for you to play OOP without the lead, the bigger your post flop edge the weaker your starting hand range can be. For the flop: General rule of thumb. Multiply your outs by 2 for a single card and 4 for two cards. With 9 outs you would have an 18% chance of getting there by the turn and 36%. So he bets and you are looking at calling .70 to win 1.65. Directly you need 5:1 and you are not there. Keep in mind, he gets to bet again, so calling once doesn't let you see two cards. Calling here purely for your flush equity is not good. If you think you can take the hand away then calling can be profitable, but you have to assess how likely it is that you can move him off his hand without hitting a flush.
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Mar 12, 2012 22:34
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Mexal posted:I need to clarify something. V1 isn't a calling station. He likes to donk bet 2nd pair then he reevaluates if someone shows strength. Probably should have put that in the read. It's one of the reasons I raised so that I could take control of the pot. I did think about checking behind but decided not to. For what it's worth, I'm fine with the bet sizing of the flop raise if you're just trying to take the lead in the pot and you intend to check for a free card if called twice, as just happened. With your revised read on V1, though... well, if you think V2 goes away if V1 does and that's what you're hoping to do with a raise, then like Ranma said, you need to be raising more on the flop. Different raise sizes accomplish different things. I like the raise to 240 for free card purposes because a flatcall on the flop would put 365 in the pot. You're likely to see bets in the 200+ range on the turn if you flat, but raising to take control of the action in position lets you pay 240 for two streets now (assuming it works) rather than 75 now and, say, 200-250 on the turn. You save a bit of money, and if you hit one of your outs on the turn, you just fire again. It gets some money into the pot for when you do hit your draw, but also gives you the ability to manage the pot size yourself. Raising bigger may take the pot now, which isn't a bad result, considering. If V1 can donk a middling piece and then reevaluate, it's all your read on him. If you don't raise enough to knock him out, V2 is almost certainly coming along. You probably need to pop it into the 400 range to have a solid chance at taking it down, I would guess. If it doesn't work, you can go back to the free card plan.
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Mar 13, 2012 03:30
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AmnesiaLab posted:For what it's worth, I'm fine with the bet sizing of the flop raise if you're just trying to take the lead in the pot and you intend to check for a free card if called twice, as just happened. With your revised read on V1, though... well, if you think V2 goes away if V1 does and that's what you're hoping to do with a raise, then like Ranma said, you need to be raising more on the flop. Makes sense. I thought about taking a free card but I thought with my raise, I was repping two pair or a set and thought checking behind would make me look like I was on a draw and that's not really what I wanted. When thinking it over, betting 2/3rd pot might not have been enough to protect against the draws though I was only really worried about V2 having a draw and I figured he would never call unless V1 did to give him the odds. Anyway, result was V1 and V2 folded to the turn bet and I took down the pot there but I was trying not to be result oriented and I wanted to check the line to see if there was anything I could do to improve it. Thanks for the comments.
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Mar 13, 2012 03:43
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Alright here are some hands I played today at Bellagio 5-10 full ring NLHE. Some are more interesting than others, some I feel like I'm sure I played ok and some I feel like I'm sure I botched. Separating the interesting hands from the boring ones is just an extra fun bonus of this massive missive. Feel like if I maybe make an effort to articulate a thought process, a coherent thought process might emerge, maybe foster some discussion or something. The power of language amirite? We'll see how many of these I can do before I fall asleep. Every time I think of a hand I think of hands preceding it that might be worth sharing, so this could end up a big wall of text. Oh, also, before people mention it yes I think I do need to increase my bet sizing in cash games in general. Stack sizes estimated. Sorry I already shared some of these on IRC: For context, I started out at a newly formed 5-10 must move table. I recognize one very good TAG reg and nobody else. Hand 1: At this point, I've shown down one hand in an orbit and a half, where I got 3 streets with AQ on some Axxxx board against some stationy dude. I've also 3b twice pre: once getting folds and once getting flatted then b/f a JTx flop. MP (old nitty white lady)(1500): calls 10; CO (1600) (middle age white guy who seems like he plays a decent amount but might be kinda loose): calls 10; Hero (BTN) (1100): raises to 50 with 9  7, folds around to CO who calls.Flop (125): A J3CO checks, I bet 70 and he calls pretty quickly. Turn (265): 2 CO checks. I debate giving up vs firing here planning to fire a lot of rivers. I settle on firing because I thought he seemed like the kind of person who would call 1 or 2 barrels with some random Ax and then not call the 3rd, especially if the 4th spade peels off. Or hell, even if it doesn't. Same goes for Jx, of which there are certainly a decent number of combos. f he's loose he has a wide range and he'll let me know if he has dat flush. Anyway, I bet 150 and he calls pretty quickly again. River (565): 2 CO checks. Even though this is kind of a lovely barrel card, I stick with the plan and bet 330. Hand 2: Takes place couple orbits after hand 1. MP (old nitty lady from last hand)(1500): calls 10; HJ (guy from last hand; since then he has shown that he is stupidly loose pre and reluctant to fold flops, getting to SD with 84o when he c/cs bottom pair and turn and river check thru) (2000): calls 10; Hero (CO): raises to 50 with 8 6BB (young asian guy, looks reggy)(1500): calls 40; MP calls 40; HJ calls 40; Flop (205): 8 55Checked to me, I bet 110. Seems standard. BB and woman fold, HJ calls pretty quickly. Turn (425): A HJ checks. If there's someone I suspect capable of calling me with A-hi on that flop, it's this guy. But still, there's so much stuff he should fold on this turn that betting seems mandatory, and checking tantamount to abandoning the pot. If he calls on the turn I can reconsider things (like whether i think he could be slowplaying one of the many 5s in his range. I bet 230. He calls fairly quickly. River (865): K Checks to me. Bombs away? Hand 3: A lil' while later, my image is probably pretty active and aggro, but I've made some folds in biggish pots postflop. Definitely appear loose because I've been isolating the loosey goosies to my right a bunch. Hero (1300) (MP) raises to 30 with A Q;CO (2000) (looks like a good TAG reg, youngish scowly guy with headphones, etc; he had earlier flatted a SB 3bet, raised my cbet on a JTx boad and i folded) calls 30; BB (700) (stationy dude) calls 20. Flop (95): A J7Checks to me, I bet 70. CO calls, BB folds. Turn (235): K I debate betting vs. checking here for a good 30 seconds. I convinced myself I might get value from some pair+gutters, the occasional AT, the occasional Kxss (really only KTss or maybe K9ss). I might also get value from something like T9ss, 98ss, or T8ss. Also, he can't really have a set except 77, and that he probably raises on the wet flop. In retrospect, I think c/c could be better here because it seems more likely that a regular will fire at least one of turn/river with non-showdownable hand. Also, sometimes he checks back and leaves us with a somewhat easier river decision (though sometimes he checks back and hits a 3 outer or whatever). Anyway, I bet 150 and he makes it 450 pretty quickly. I...? Hand 4: People might think I'm steaming, because I am stuck. But my demeanor is obv fine. Hero (1600) (UTG) I raise to 40 with K K ;HJ (2400) (Middle-aged dude, looks like he's played before but not a reg and not a pro, prob straightforwardish. Stationy post, seemed limpy pre): 3bets to 80. BB (2000) (Stupidly-loose guy from previous hands): calls 70 I was considering just flatting the initial 3bettor because, lol live poker middle aged guys who 3bet tiny after being super passive pre for 2 hours have AA a lot here right? But then clownbox mcgee gets in the pot and I feel obligated to try to play a giant pot in position against him so I raise to 270. HJ asks how many bills I'm playing, thinks for about 20 seconds and makes it 670 to go. I...? Hand 5: MP (nitty lady)(1500): raises to 40. First time I've seen her raise...ever? CO (loose clown from before)(2000): calls 40. Hero (BTN)(1400): calls 40. BB (tag reg)(3100): calls 40. Flop (165): 8 86Checks to MP who bets 150 pretty quickly. CO folds. I call. BB folds. Not sure calling this near-PSB is good compared to folding (raising seems pretty bad, not sure I can ever get her to fold an overpair here), but I figure I'll get some value out of overpairs if I hit the flush. Turn (465): J MP bets 240. I begin to wonder whether I can raise and rep huge here, but then just got the feeling that she'd shrug-call ovepairs almost always here. And factoring in the unlikely event she was firing 2 barrels with TT or AKcc, I decided to peel. Calling and folding have to be pretty close here, but I think she'll c/c an overpair if hit the flush or boat up. River (945): 2 Woman checks quickly. I...? Hand 6: MP (Nitty Lady)(1400): calls 10; Loose clowny guy (MP) (1900): calls 10; Hero (HJ) (1300): Raises to 50 with T 8BB (5bettor from previous hand)(2800): calls 40; MP limpers call. Flop (205): K J6BB quickly glances at his chips, kinda glances away, seems kinda reminiscent of how he looked when he 5bet, then checks. Checked to me and I check back. I feel like this kinda mashes at least one of their ranges, but if I'm not cbetting this flop with this hand what non-value hands am I really doing it with? Does that kind of balanced range thinking even matter in situations like these where nobody else is really balanced and you're just trying to nakedly exploit those imbalances? Meh, I can def see arguments for betting (it looks strong, can get a lot of folds later on, can build a pot in position, can get there) being robust enough to make betting here better. Turn (205): 5 So I make the flush. BB quickly bets 100. Folds to me and I make the pretty big mistake of just calling. I think this is just nut-fear, runbad, and trying to read too much into live tells clouding my judgment. But this guy is stationy: he's not going to 3bet turn without Axdd or maybe Q9dd. He's almost certainly peeling one off with the naked Ad and any pair, and probably not finding a way to fold 2p+ or QT (with or without the Qd) on the turn either. So, yeah, pretty obv value raise I missed here. River (405): 3 BB checks. I bet 250. Hand 7: I've won some decent pots recently by getting to the river with the goods and getting paid off. It's also becoming more apparent that I'm just isoing the players to my right a ton. MP (nitty old lady)(2000): calls 10; CO (grotesquely loose guy from previous hands) (1600): raises to 50; Hero (BTN)(2600): 3bets to 150 with A ASB (1700) (very good young tag reg he and I have some history of being aggro): cold 4bets to 360. Both fold, I decide to flat. I think he's 4betting pretty wide here, because he has certainly picked up on my isolating the loose limpers/raisers. If he has a value hand he's getting it in on most flops, and he might flop a pair or draw with his hand and not fold. Flop (795): J 84SB leads for 280. I...? OK, I'm too tired but I'll try to to post other hands (or try better to separate the interesting from the mundane before I start spewing words onto the internet), such as... -AA vs tag reg AGAIN -AA vs some other guy -Other guy takes weird line in sidepot -Flopping top pair and getting raised by a passive fucker on a wet flop -I turn top pair but get raised by a morbidly obese middle age guy. -Bluffraise turn instead of bluffraising flop, why god why -Calling down a Euro fucker with an overpair -Getting it in with a set vs. Euro fucker's overpair and losing (not really going to talk about this )Dunno why suit smileys stopped working.
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Mar 17, 2012 13:09
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What do you have hand 5? Whenever in spots like Hands 1 and 2, I always get called down no matter how sexy the board. I guess I need to tighten up. Hand 6 I'm pretty sure he has a set because that's a classic tell for super strength. It also depends on how quickly it happens because it needs to be immediate. Hand 7 due to the history and both of your aggression, I would just keep betting preflop.
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Mar 17, 2012 17:37
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Hand 5 I have QJ my mistake.
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Mar 17, 2012 18:41
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Unamuno posted:Hand 5 I have Q Whatever you do don't bet because she has an overpair and is checking river as though you'll check back better hands and shove all your money in with worse hands. Because unless she has shown a propensity for making huge folds, she is going to make the calling station hero call here when you decide to shove your remaining ~1100. She will hee and she will haw and then she will call with KK, worried that you had AA.
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Mar 17, 2012 18:53
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Unamuno posted:Dunno why suit smileys stopped working. They always stop just shy of 3 full hands, so break it up into 3's and triple post as necessary. I wish I could help with poker too!
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Mar 17, 2012 22:58
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Hand 2... why is that not a check behind on the river? He's definitely not calling with worse. Is he folding with better? Maybe two nines?
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Mar 21, 2012 04:06
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| # ? May 27, 2024 09:53 |
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discstickers posted:Hand 2... why is that not a check behind on the river? He's definitely not calling with worse. Is he folding with better? Maybe two nines? Happily bombing assuming we didn't get looked up in hand 1. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Mar 21, 2012 |
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Mar 21, 2012 07:07
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