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rockin peanut posted:I learned a lot of general office-life habits that are worthwhile, but 1-3 years in accounting doesn't give you 'business' knowledge in the way recruiters might tell you. That comes after, when you start to specialize by industry/area of practice. And even then, most of what you're doing is still just debits and credits. I have a slightly different opinion on this. If you're in audit and you get to work on different clients across different industries and get exposure to more complex areas, I think you can learn a whole lot about business. Granted, you won't know enough to go and run a business or be a CFO somewhere in that time frame, but you can definitely get a solid understanding of how those businesses work, how to read financial statements and interpret financial information, understand the financial reporting and control process, cash flows, business trends, etc. If the opinion above was geared more towards being in industry, then I agree, as posting journal entries for a few years won't give you a ton of exposure to how businesses operate. As for learning a lot in training, in public accounting you'll basically just learn how the firm operates and some other basic skills in your initial training, but most of what you get out of this job is on the job learning. Having been through copious amounts of training since starting at my firm a few years ago, I think the usefulness of the training depends on what your role is - for some people it is new and useful, for others it is just review of things you've already been doing. Outside of a couple of trainings I've taken that were geared more towards managers/partners (I'm a senior), most of the ones I've attended have been fairly useless.
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Apr 18, 2012 02:22
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I've been curious about how easy it would be to move from big 4 tax with CPA/MST to the IRS. I really don't hear about people taking this path very often. Does it ever happen? The IRS seems like a solid exit opportunity, though maybe not as lucrative as other options.
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Apr 18, 2012 04:46
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Mush Mushi posted:I've been curious about how easy it would be to move from big 4 tax with CPA/MST to the IRS. I really don't hear about people taking this path very often. Does it ever happen? Yes, it happens. When I came on board at the IRS there were quite a few people from Big 4 or similar backgrounds. Most of them got tired of the hours. This is anecdotal, but I know a guy at my office who received a job offer from a Big 4 as a senior associate for 52K. He was already making 57K at the IRS working 40 hours a week so needless to say he didn't take the job. With a CPA, MST and experience you may be able to come in as a grade 11. I know some CPAs with non-big 4 experience who were hired as grade 12/13s off the bat but that's pretty rare and it would be in an area like Large Business and International versus Small Business/Self-Employed where most new hires seem to start.
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Apr 18, 2012 23:15
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Cyrezar posted:Yes, it happens. When I came on board at the IRS there were quite a few people from Big 4 or similar backgrounds. Most of them got tired of the hours. This is anecdotal, but I know a guy at my office who received a job offer from a Big 4 as a senior associate for 52K. He was already making 57K at the IRS working 40 hours a week so needless to say he didn't take the job. With a CPA, MST and experience you may be able to come in as a grade 11. I know some CPAs with non-big 4 experience who were hired as grade 12/13s off the bat but that's pretty rare and it would be in an area like Large Business and International versus Small Business/Self-Employed where most new hires seem to start. It obviously depends on your location, but $52k as an experienced hire at a Big 4 (especially at the senior level) seems extremely low, so I don't blame him for passing. But I'm curious about your thoughts on advancement and the salaries that advancement at a Big 4 would have. If you stay in the IRS for 7-8 years, what's the expected compensation? My general thought, and I may be wrong, is that while you're averaging 40-50 hours/week, there isn't a lot whole of room for advancement or compensation increases. Is the draw to an agency like the IRS more a function of decent pay with less hours and decent benefits than it is the potential for advancement? Also, this is a dumb question, but do any IRS agents get firearms and arrest powers as a federal agent?
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Apr 21, 2012 08:28
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My general impression was that it's either the easier hours + government benefits, or you work there for a little bit and then leave to become a tax consultant.
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Apr 21, 2012 14:13
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hellboundburrito posted:
We had a "what are the econ grads doing now?" lunch in college and one of speakers was a special agent for the IRS. She did get to carry a gun, but it sounded like the job mostly involved banging on doors of small-time drug dealers. If you are interested in a job like that, I would recommend doing it somewhere other than Oregon.
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Apr 21, 2012 17:57
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hellboundburrito posted:Also, this is a dumb question, but do any IRS agents get firearms and arrest powers as a federal agent? IRS has a criminal investigative division. It's a huge bitch to get into so good luck. I applied, got rated whatever the top rating was, then got told "sorry you weren't in the first 200 to apply, maybe next time!" You basically need all the accounting or investigative background plus be able to pass all the fitness tests (including eye and ear exams... had a buddy get denied because his hearing wasn't perfect or something). They actually had a very specific bit about that in the job posting I applied to about a year ago. It said something along the lines of you need to be able to hear a whispered conversation from so many feet away. I thought it was really odd to read in a federal job posting so I guess that's why I can still recall it. hellboundburrito posted:But I'm curious about your thoughts on advancement and the salaries that advancement at a Big 4 would have. If you stay in the IRS for 7-8 years, what's the expected compensation? My general thought, and I may be wrong, is that while you're averaging 40-50 hours/week, there isn't a lot whole of room for advancement or compensation increases. Is the draw to an agency like the IRS more a function of decent pay with less hours and decent benefits than it is the potential for advancement? Your mileage may vary but typically you don't move up as fast in government agencies. That said, you don't have insane big4 hours and get amazing benefits. I would take IRS over Big4 any day of the week. I think a lot of people get sold hook line and sinker into "stay in big4 for x years and youll land this amazing job/make tons of $". The problem is you have to actually survive 5 years first. I have a lot of accounting friends that were losing their minds after just 2.
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Apr 21, 2012 22:31
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So, everyone loves talking about the hell that is busy season with public accounting. 60-80hr weeks, working Saturdays, blah blah. But what is non busy season like? Everyone harps on those months, while never really providing any clue as to what the summer or fall is like.
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Apr 21, 2012 23:04
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gmilo posted:I think a lot of people get sold hook line and sinker into "stay in big4 for x years and youll land this amazing job/make tons of $". The problem is you have to actually survive 5 years first. I have a lot of accounting friends that were losing their minds after just 2. I know that associates, senior associates and you could argue even managers at the big 4 work a lot for relatively lower pay. However, I've read a lot about other more "prestigious" career paths like banking and law, and the general consensus seems to be that accounting is the least demanding out of the three. Do people who say this have any idea what they are talking about? I know all about 80 hour weeks in busy times, but at least the traditional CPA gets a few good breaks in between the insanely busy hours (I say traditional because people working in b4 specialty groups often don't have a "busy season"). When people leave big 4, it seems like it is a combination of hours and pay, not just hours. Most people leave for a bump in salary. Would I be right if I said that if the market pay for accountants was higher, and starting pay at a big 4 was 80-90k (which will obviously never happen), not very many people would be in a hurry to leave? On the contrary, attorneys leave biglaw jobs starting at 160k because that lifestyle can be just too much to handle. As an accounting undergrad, I could just be talking out of my rear end here, though.
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Apr 21, 2012 23:20
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From what I've heard during my recruitment process, Big 4 busy season is crazy (less so for MIS/Internal Audit/RAS/ITRA) which is awesome during the internship due to overtime hours, but not when you get in and get paid salary for the same amount of work. Some people love it and stay in until manager/director/partner, some people jump out after 2-5 years to take a better middle market job with a better work/life balance. I've also heard that acct busy seasons are nothing compared to law and Investment banking seasons, which chew people up in 5 years max.
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Apr 22, 2012 03:55
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I'll be receiving my Bachelor of Commerce next year and I'm looking to pursue my CA designation (I live in Ontario). Though most of my networking and campus events have focused only on the Big 4, I'm really looking for any place (aforementioned, small accounting firms, government) to start work, and I'm curious whether it is true that the Big 4 are the best places to receive the necessarily training for the CA exams. So far most people I've talked to have flaunted these firms as the best experience in training and mentoring, but I'm a little intimidated by the hectic nature of starting work there. As an alternative, I've had my eyes on trying for the CRA or OLG.
Haeleus fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Apr 22, 2012 |
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Apr 22, 2012 05:20
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I just ended a tax internship while going to grad school part time. I'm pooped, but got a really nice offer from my firm. Super excited!!!
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Apr 22, 2012 06:57
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Haeleus posted:I'll be receiving my Bachelor of Commerce next year and I'm looking to pursue my CA designation (I live in Ontario). Though most of my networking and campus events have focused only on the Big 4, I'm really looking for any place (aforementioned, small accounting firms, government) to start work, and I'm curious whether it is true that the Big 4 are the best places to receive the necessarily training for the CA exams. So far most people I've talked to have flaunted these firms as the best experience in training and mentoring, but I'm a little intimidated by the hectic nature of starting work there. As an alternative, I've had my eyes on trying for the CRA or OLG. I'm not sure if the big 4, or any firm for that matter, will provide you with enough on the job training to pass the exam--there is just too much material tested. In the US, pretty much all midsize to large firms will pay for a CPA review course to help you pass the exam. Working at a big 4 exposes you to the largest and most complex clients in the business world, and it is that experience, in addition to the brand name on your resume, that attracts people to these firms. I know people who have moved from smaller regional firms to the big 4 as experienced hires, and they did fine. One thing to consider is that public accounting will be hectic at times no matter where you are working. The big 4 are just in the spotlight more often.
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Apr 22, 2012 07:39
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Haeleus posted:I'll be receiving my Bachelor of Commerce next year and I'm looking to pursue my CA designation (I live in Ontario). Though most of my networking and campus events have focused only on the Big 4, I'm really looking for any place (aforementioned, small accounting firms, government) to start work, and I'm curious whether it is true that the Big 4 are the best places to receive the necessarily training for the CA exams. So far most people I've talked to have flaunted these firms as the best experience in training and mentoring, but I'm a little intimidated by the hectic nature of starting work there. As an alternative, I've had my eyes on trying for the CRA or OLG. In my experience (Australian CA) the big 4 are considered to offer good training. They do in-house training for the CA every 2 weeks and provide help with projects (suggestions about what issues to consider and discuss for each section, as well as a large pool of other CAs doing the same project as you) and exam preparation (lots of past exams, tips from people who recently took the exams). In my experience none of this was necessary, although it would have been helpful. They also look great on your resume. A number of commercial roles will be advertised specifically for a "big 4 first mover", so the brand definitely gives you something. A grad spot at a big 4 firm has the potential to open some doors for you. From my experience for a lot of people the big 4 is not a long term place of employment. A large portion leave directly after qualifying as a CA (plus 12 months so they don't have to pay back training expenses). I don't know whether this is because of the work life balance, or just the work (my experience is with people in audit, who say that they hate it). If you're thinking that you want to keep your options open after you graduate (don't know whether you want to stay in audit/business services etc vs a more commercial role), then I think the big 4 is a great way to get your CA designation without making a commitment and keeping as many doors open as possible. I don't really know anyone who has been in government jobs so I can't comment on those alternatives. Government roles generally seem to be attractive to people who are sick of the stress from working long hours. I wouldn't have taken a government role after getting by bcomm. Hope this helps!
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Apr 22, 2012 08:57
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Democratic Pirate posted:So I'm recruiting with all the Big 4 and have to choose which one I like best. Anybody have horror stories/advice? It's all about the people. And the clients, and how good your supervisors are, and how much traveling is involved, and what you end up being good at, and how large your office is, and if it suits you...
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Apr 23, 2012 02:01
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I just got into my school's Masters program, but my undergrad GPA is really low (under 2.5, but 700+ GMAT offset it). According to my program director, firms do the majority of their recruiting in August/September before any grades from the program are even valid. Am I screwed if my goal is to join a Big 4 firm? Is it better to start off in a large office or small? It seems a majority of the previous class are staying in state, with only a couple going to DC/NYC. The goal is to start off in audit, and then after a couple years transition into Advisory, specifically M&A. Also, for the CPA exam, what are considered enough classes to have enough information to start studying for it? Are intermediate accounting I and II sufficient? Since my UGPA was so low, I hope to have taken and passed as many of the CPA sections as possible before next August.
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Apr 23, 2012 13:05
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Don Markstein posted:Also, for the CPA exam, what are considered enough classes to have enough information to start studying for it? Are intermediate accounting I and II sufficient? Since my UGPA was so low, I hope to have taken and passed as many of the CPA sections as possible before next August. I'll answer this part of the question, as I have only industry experience under my belt and really everyone is going to want something different from their public experience anyway. Do you already have a degree in accounting? You said you were admitted to the master's program and (if I read it correctly) that intermediate I and II are already done. I think with a good review course like Becker, no classes are necessary for studying for the CPA. What will be necessary is having the requirements for sitting for the exam done so that you can actually test. Check out the requirements for your state's application to test and then build your study schedule around when/if you qualify for the exam.
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Apr 23, 2012 18:38
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So, are accountants still in high demand in most places? Is it still possible to find entry-level work? I'm in the Raleigh, NC area if that matters. EDIT: I'm in the same boat as the OP, coming out of law school, and accounting seems like a decent enough backup plan if I can't find a job in law by the time I have to start repaying my student loans. I was fortunate enough to come out of school with under $45,000 in debt, so I can afford to take another year if it means having a job. Mons Hubris fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Apr 24, 2012 |
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Apr 24, 2012 03:57
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Mons Hubris posted:So, are accountants still in high demand in most places? Is it still possible to find entry-level work? I'm in the Raleigh, NC area if that matters. Do you have an undergraduate degree in accounting? A JD specialization in Tax Law? If you have specialization in Tax Law, you can probably get a pretty good job in one of the Big 4 in their tax area (or maybe even without the specialization by hyping up your case law/Internal Revenue Code research skills)... Horseshoe theory fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Apr 24, 2012 |
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Apr 24, 2012 04:28
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ThirdPartyView posted:Do you have an undergraduate degree in accounting? A JD specialization in Tax Law? If you have specialization in Tax Law, you can probably get a pretty good job in one of the Big 4 in their tax area (or maybe even without the specialization by hyping up your case law/Internal Revenue Code research skills)... I don't, I was a Chemical Engineering undergrad and no J.D. specialization. I always heard banks and accounting firms liked hiring engineers, but I don't really know anything about GAAP, JD Edwards, Oracle, or any of those other specialized things they want you to know. Mons Hubris fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Apr 24, 2012 |
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Apr 24, 2012 04:45
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Mons Hubris posted:I don't, I was a Chemical Engineering undergrad and no J.D. specialization. I always heard banks and accounting firms liked hiring engineers, but I don't really know anything about GAAP or any of those other specialized things they want you to know. They may be interested in your undergrad knowledge for in-house specialist (although you may also be able to do some sort of legal stuff, possibly even pick up Tax Law and get them to fund an LLM if you end up being good at it). If you try to do a bookkeeping job (which, honestly, given your education level probably would be a step down), you'd need to pick up at least the basics of GAAP (double entry accounting, etc.) and it would be wise to get a Introductory Financial Accounting or Intermediate Accounting textbook to flip through (also maybe a book on QuickBooks). Horseshoe theory fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 24, 2012 |
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Apr 24, 2012 04:50
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ThirdPartyView posted:If you try to do a bookkeeping job (which, honestly, given your education level probably would be a step down).  the economy.....But yeah. I'm prepared for a step down if necessary, I guess. I worked in the Office of General Counsel at the NC Department of Agriculture for a couple years during law school and enjoyed it, so I studied food and ag law to try and get back into that role. Of course the legislature then slashed all the agency budgets, and I don't know that I have the stomach (or private sector experience) to start my own practice. I think I kinda hosed up by not really using my engineering degree for a few years, so I'm afraid I'm kinda looking at a career change if I can't find someone to take me on. That seems like it doesn't take too long if you already have a bunch of credits racked up (I have like 186 I think). I was hoping for something I could do within like 3 semesters if possible, and a CPA license seems like a reasonable option given the overlap with law and only requiring 30-odd hours of accounting to sit for it. I may need to explore this a little more if it would be possible to do CS or Stats or something in the same time frame.
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Apr 24, 2012 05:09
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Mons Hubris posted:I think I kinda hosed up by not really using my engineering degree for a few years, so I'm afraid I'm kinda looking at a career change if I can't find someone to take me on. That seems like it doesn't take too long if you already have a bunch of credits racked up (I have like 186 I think). I was hoping for something I could do within like 3 semesters if possible, and a CPA license seems like a reasonable option given the overlap with law and only requiring 30-odd hours of accounting to sit for it. I may need to explore this a little more if it would be possible to do CS or Stats or something in the same time frame. If you can get a CPA, that would be a very good combination, particularly since you'd be able to angle yourself towards Tax Law/Accounting (which is a lucrative field if you know what the hell you're doing). I know guys that have a CPA, J.D. and LLM and do quite well for themselves as Tax Attorneys. ^  ^
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Apr 24, 2012 05:16
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Speaking of tax, is anybody in here actually worried about corporate or individual tax simplification? Seems like the politicized nature of our tax code makes this highly unlikely, and we are operating under the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which did such a great job at simplification.
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Apr 24, 2012 16:16
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Mush Mushi posted:Speaking of tax, is anybody in here actually worried about corporate or individual tax simplification? Seems like the politicized nature of our tax code makes this highly unlikely, and we are operating under the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which did such a great job at simplification. So long as the people who make the tax law are career politicians with little to no practical accounting and tax education/work under their belt? I would be gleefully surprised if the tax code became simple enough to render the field irrelevant.
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Apr 24, 2012 18:04
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Gleefully surprised sounds about right. If it happens that just means more time to focus on actual business issues. Maybe accountants who only do tax are worried, but they still have a strong skill set for business, so I would imagine them being able to move into another position without too much issue.
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Apr 24, 2012 21:42
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Mush Mushi posted:Speaking of tax, is anybody in here actually worried about corporate or individual tax simplification? Seems like the politicized nature of our tax code makes this highly unlikely, and we are operating under the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which did such a great job at simplification. So long as there is lobbying (there always will be), tax credits/deductions will always exist, dispute the lip service given by politicians.
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Apr 25, 2012 00:46
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19 o'clock posted:Do you already have a degree in accounting? You said you were admitted to the master's program and (if I read it correctly) that intermediate I and II are already done. Nope, my undergraduate degree was in economics, but I'll have intermediate I done in a couple weeks, and will be taking intermediate II during summer session II. If Becker is all I need, then I guess I'll be fine. Just wish it wasn't so drat expensive; guess that's where most of my GA money will go since I don't have any firms willing to bankroll me. Mons Hubris posted:So, are accountants still in high demand in most places? Is it still possible to find entry-level work? I'm in the Raleigh, NC area if that matters. Seeing as you're sort of in the same boat as me (undergrad major where you didn't take any accounting courses), if your UGPA is not terrible and you do well enough on the GMAT, you can get into at least 2 Master of Accountancy programs. Also, the GMAT is like a much easier LSAT, so you'll probably be fine on that front. I'll be at UNCW in the fall and I think ECU has even lower standards for admission. UNCW has a system that you can take most of your prerequisites for the program in the summer before you start, and any left over will be added to your fall semester as an overload, which is what I'm doing. I don't know what State's requirements are, but the Master's program would count as your 30 hours accounting needed to sit for the CPA exam , which would be helpful seeing as you're over the 150 hours. It's also only a year long program. (Official UNCW MSA classes start for us in August and go til mid summer).
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Apr 25, 2012 06:12
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Anyone know if big 4 would typically pay or help pay for a full time, one year master's degree (tax or accounting) after completing a summer internship after senior year. I am guessing they only pay if you are also working full time.
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Apr 26, 2012 03:20
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Mush Mushi posted:Anyone know if big 4 would typically pay or help pay for a full time, one year master's degree (tax or accounting) after completing a summer internship after senior year. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the Big 4 still help you pay for an MSA/MST. Up until a few years ago, most campus recruits would start in the fall after graduation, work through a busy season, and then get a summer sabbatical to finish their masters program at a percentage of their pay, plus the firms would pay for a loan for part of the schooling. Now, most (if not all) of the Big 4 require you to have 150 credits before starting full time, whether those credits are from a masters program or undergrad.
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Apr 26, 2012 03:37
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Yup. Our firm at this point is extremely picky about campus hire candidates since supply far exceeds demand - it'll really count against you if you try to apply for a position without a plan for the 150 credits, or are not already enrolled in one of the graduate programs. The main exception I can think of is if you're applying for an internship and get a full-time offer upon completion; if firms still offer tuition assistance it's a maximum of $5,250 a year (limit before additional assistance becomes taxable compensation). I think they got rid of signing bonuses for new campus hires, too (according to the first-years).  hellboundburrito: Hope you enjoyed the mad rush of completing all your staffs' PFFs today... Sukashi fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 06:46
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Yeah...I live in California and we are just now switching over to the 150 unit rule. It used to be the case, especially in the tax area, that you could start work at 120 units and still be CPA eligible, and get your MST part time which the firm would reimburse. Now that the 150 unit rule will be in place, the big 4 want to see a 150 unit plan or you don't have a chance. I am a junior, so I'm doing leadership programs this summer, and hopefully that will set me up for an internship after my senior year. I will only have 120 units coming out of undergrad, so I am going for a full time MST to take care of the extra 30. I wasn't really expecting any firm to pay for my full time MST--just wishful thinking I guess.
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Apr 26, 2012 07:14
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I spent an extra semester studying classical voice, guitar, jazz, and rock in my college's music department. Hit the 150 mark then did a contract playing music for Carnival Cruise Lines. Then I decided that...this would be better? 
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Apr 26, 2012 15:38
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CA is going to require the extra 30 to be accounting/ethics related, because if someone is not an ethical person, 10 units of ethics study will surely fix that little problem!
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Apr 26, 2012 19:53
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Mush Mushi posted:CA is going to require the extra 30 to be accounting/ethics related, because if someone is not an ethical person, 10 units of ethics study will surely fix that little problem! I enjoy that my CO ethics exam is a take-home one. I suppose a take-home test really is the ultimate ethical dilemma, eh?
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Apr 26, 2012 21:40
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Mush Mushi posted:CA is going to require the extra 30 to be accounting/ethics related, because if someone is not an ethical person, 10 units of ethics study will surely fix that little problem! Surely you only can take 3 hours of ethics right? 10 credit hours is like 3 ethics classes which seems like a ton. Although honestly the one 3 hour ethics class required where I live was probably the most interesting and fun accounting class I have ever taken. It was just case studies of major corporate meltdowns, the book was like a text version of that show American Greed that continually one-upped itself. Each chapter owned. "Well the last one had companies hiring guerrillas to kill people in South America how the gently caress are we going to top that?. ***reads on***Oh this dude embezzled $2 billion over 10 years to throw million dollar birthday parties for his wife with ice sculptures that piss vodka. ***reads more*** These guys thought it would be a good idea to cut costs on their brake pads by just making them out of compressed grass & mud and worry about them bursting into flames later".
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Apr 27, 2012 01:28
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Sukashi posted:Yup. Our firm at this point is extremely picky about campus hire candidates since supply far exceeds demand - it'll really count against you if you try to apply for a position without a plan for the 150 credits, or are not already enrolled in one of the graduate programs. Man did I ever. In the last week of busy season too, so terrible timing. And of course I had to sit by my computer until midnight last night waiting for someone to release one of mine to me so I could sign off...
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Apr 27, 2012 05:12
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Captain Beans posted:Surely you only can take 3 hours of ethics right? 10 credit hours is like 3 ethics classes which seems like a ton. The way the law is currently written, it is 10 credit hours of "ethics study." Granted, a broad range of classes meet the definition for "ethics study" right now, from business law to philosophy. This will probably change once schools have enough time to adjust their curriculum though.
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Apr 27, 2012 05:58
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N.N. Ashe posted:Gleefully surprised sounds about right. If it happens that just means more time to focus on actual business issues. Maybe accountants who only do tax are worried, but they still have a strong skill set for business, so I would imagine them being able to move into another position without too much issue. I agree. I do a lot of tax, and it would be great if our system were even just left alone for several years in a row. But it just does not happen.
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May 1, 2012 01:44
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seymore posted:I agree. I do a lot of tax, and it would be great if our system were even just left alone for several years in a row. But it just does not happen. If you do a lot of tax, doesn't your career depend on the complexity and ever changing nature of the tax system? Understanding a complex system that not many people are knowledgeable about only makes your skills more valuable.
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May 6, 2012 00:28
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