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This was probably the easiest decision in the world, but I'd like some confirmation. .5/1 NL cash full ring home game Hero has Q  J in mid position and limps behind UTG+2. Button raises to 5 and is called by both UTG+2 and Hero.Button has been fairly tight and passive all night, but has twice shown some pretty wild bets with air (when he's bored? when he has a read?). UTG+2 is a regular who is generally solid tight aggressive if maybe a bit too tight preflop sometimes. Flop is A TQ and is checked through.Turn is J  . UTG+2 bets 30, Hero calls, Button shoves for 95 total, UTG+2 calls, Hero has 285 left, is covered by UTG+2 and ... ?I called, thinking I was behind but likely had a lot of equity and getting a really good price. Is there a reason to raise ever in this spot? Because I'm fairly sure calling was the right move, but I wanted to ask to make sure there wasn't a reason to raise that I'm not considering. Also, I realize I should have bet flop instead of trying for a check-raise on a generally passive player. odiv fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 03:36
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Mind_Taker posted:I want to know if I played this hand poorly, and if there is any way I could have not lost all of my money. Results are posted because IT'S A COOLER but since we were both so deep I was wondering if I was obligated to lose all of my money instead of just a large portion of my money after I called PF. You have to make a turn read before acting. You say that he might have 88 or 44 but you don't discuss AK/AQ or any other hands in his range that you beat, but then you add AK/AQ back in his range on the river. Also based on your preflop reads, you can safely take out 88 and 44. You can pretty much narrow it down to AK/AA on turn raise and ABC players sometimes bet flop with AK, also might just call with AK on turn, so you have to discount it some if you can't absolutely deduct it from his range using history of cbetting, etc. Depending on the player it is ok to fold in this spot. Just my 2c. WaWaWeeWoW fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 05:24
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odiv posted:Flop is A You don't fold out better so shoving doesn't accomplish anything. Even if you fold out some hands better than yours, other villain's range has you beat. Can't fold because of odds, so calling is correct.
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Apr 13, 2012 05:33
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AmnesiaLab posted:hand I'd weigh people giving speeches like that towards having monsters. I use to tell myself it could be either and that i shouldn't pay attention to it but time after time i see big hands shown down after poo poo like that.
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Apr 13, 2012 17:08
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AmnesiaLab posted:JTs hand Definitely fold or 3bet pre with JTs vs a guy who is raising over 10% of your stack. Turn is obviously a jam but you know that.
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Apr 13, 2012 18:10
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MAN OF MANY MOUTHS posted:I'd weigh people giving speeches like that towards having monsters. I use to tell myself it could be either and that i shouldn't pay attention to it but time after time i see big hands shown down after poo poo like that. Yeah, the speech is usually a monster, but I usually see that with undirected speeches. "I'm ready to go home," etc, or a guy who's been quiet all night suddenly talking. I hadn't been playing with that guy long enough to know whether that was the case, but I didn't really factor his talking into my decision much because I hadn't played with him enough to get a baseline read of his normal behavior to compare to what I was seeing. Basically, my rule of thumb is if a mouthy, aggressive type talks, he's gonna want a fold most of the time (depending on what he actually says; those guys will try to talk you into a call as well, but the approach is usually different). If a quiet guy talks, he's begging for a call. I didn't know enough about this guy to know which it was, so I didn't put too much into it. Regardless, I didn't have enough of an idea how the guy played to have good control here, and I was obviously playing like poo poo. This wasn't a strat post in the first place, but a cautionary tale. My thinking at the time was way off on so many levels. The lovely turn bet was an attempt to get my whole stack in by the river and get paid, but notice that with my (weak) read, he's never putting the rest of it in if I bet on the river unless I'm beat. If I'm going to get money out of a draw, it's gotta go in on the turn. This is basically a summary of the nefarious effects of tilt going undiagnosed.
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Apr 13, 2012 21:44
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Hero BTN with A KUTG fold MP call CO call Hero(BTN) raises to 4x (100bb) SB folds BB calls (65bb) MP folds CO calls (180bb) FLOP (13bb) K 32BB checks CO bets 19bb Hero? Readless, my first button
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Apr 20, 2012 03:38
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Blinky2099 posted:Hero BTN with A This deep I am a pretty big fan of a fold. It just screams "I have a set and want to fold out all heart draws" OR "I have two low hearts and don't want the ace of hearts to outdraw me". I doubt he bets this much here with a lower king, even with something like KxQh (which you're only 53% against). I doubt he bets at all with a naked ace of hearts either. You haven't committed many dollars at this point and even another king on the turn will leave you unsure if he bets huge. EngineerSean fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Apr 20, 2012 |
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Apr 20, 2012 10:32
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Blinky2099 posted:Hero BTN with A What game you're in matters a whole lot since you're readless. I would call here, I doubt he has a strong made hand as his play just makes no sense.
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Apr 20, 2012 17:51
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I've seen people play baby flushes like this at 1/2, afraid that if they check, you'll check behind the scary flop and get a free card to beat their flush. I've also seen people just randomly fire with bullshit hoping the board scares everyone away, or with a big heart, figuring they've always got a good shot to catch up if they're behind. I prefer a fold because your reverse implied odds suck rear end, and even though we have position and how he plays the turn after overbetting the flop should give us a lot more information to work with, I don't like floating 19bb just for that. I generally give unknowns credit when I first sit down, so I would just fold here and wait for a better spot. When you tangle with him in the future, you'll have a better idea of how he plays. You could be drawing to runner runner as it is, and if a heart peels, what are you going to do? Bluff if checked to? What if he made that flop bet with the A ? You have no read whatsoever, and trying to mug a guy you know nothing about on a flop like this is dangerous. If you weren't flying blind here, the situation might be a bit different, but I'd prefer to just be patient.
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Apr 21, 2012 22:15
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Recent hand at $2/$5 Live NLHE. We're 7 handed and I had just raised the previous two hands, took one down preflop, and one with a c-bet on the flop. The table is relatively tight so far. This is my third consecutive hand raising preflop, and the villain is a younger seemingly competent and attentive player and the only other one who has been raising a decent amount preflop, but I've never been in a significant hand with him before this one. I'm about $800 deep to start, he has me covered. I'm UTG and pick up AKo and raise to $20. Villain is on the button and 3-bets me to $55. His 3-betting range here should be light because this is my third consecutive hand raising preflop, none of which I've shown down. I decide to 4-bet to $135 because I think he'd possibly call with hands that I have crushed like AQ or AJs given my "loose" image, and I think him folding here wouldn't be bad because I don't really want to whiff the flop and play OOP against a good opponent. He calls my 4-bet. Flop comes Q J4 (I don't have a club). Before the flop villain's range looks something like 77+ (maybe even like 22+ if he doesn't believe my 4-bet), and AJ+ (maybe AT, again, if he doesn't believe my 4-bet). Pot is about $270 and I c-bet for $150 hoping to get the medium pocket pairs to fold. He min-raises to $300.My first reaction to this min-raise was that it was complete garbage. Min-raises from live droolers mean the nuts most of the time but he isn't a bad player and this raise just seems weird. There's no need to scare me off my hand now. I can't fold here, can I? Pot is about $720 and I have about $515 left behind. What do I do? How should I have played this hand differently? Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Apr 27, 2012 |
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Apr 27, 2012 16:50
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Mind_Taker posted:Recent hand at $2/$5 Live NLHE. We're 7 handed and I had just raised the previous two hands, took one down preflop, and one with a c-bet on the flop. The table is relatively tight so far. I just can't find too many bluffs in his range except if he turns an underpair like TT into a bluff, and you still aren't ahead against the underpairs. At worst he has decided to 'go with it' on AQ, or bluff raise with his own A K, and at best he has JJ+ and slow played a big hand himself by flatting your 4bet.So his range is strong, and doesn't have too many bluffs, which you don't have great equity against anyway. So a pretty easy fold on the flop.
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Apr 27, 2012 17:05
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Mind_Taker posted:Recent hand at $2/$5 Live NLHE. We're 7 handed and I had just raised the previous two hands, took one down preflop, and one with a c-bet on the flop. The table is relatively tight so far. Seems alright I would probably 4bet slightly larger just because I don't want to be in exactly this situation and you guys are slightly deep. Flop smacks both your ranges, I think his minraise is pretty polarizing so you can maybe jam if he is loving TERRIBLE but if he's competent you probably just have to fold. I am also happier check/folding this flop then betting it just cause it hits his range and you're OOP and will probably have to fire two at least to win the pot, but betting $100 on the flop and $250 on the turn isn't a bad option.
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Apr 28, 2012 00:05
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You've raised the last two hands, but what about before that? You said you haven't been in any significant tangles with the villain before, but how long have you been at the table together? You've raised a lot recently, but have you done anything earlier on that would make you seem hyper-aggressive? If he's an attentive, thinking player, what you did the last couple of hands isn't all that matters; he's going to be thinking about how you've been playing since he sat down with you. Have you 4-bet before? Have you been 3-betting a lot? Raising a lot is one thing, but reraising a lot is another thing entirely, and he probably recognizes the difference here. If you haven't been crazy aggro, and he's a strong, attentive player, then his range after calling your 4-bet is pretty goddamn strong, and this flop hits it right in the mouth. I don't think it's a good spot to get cute here. I check the flop, hoping he thinks we might be trapping and checks behind, because I'm not excited about putting any more money in the pot against this guy out of position unless we improve, preferably with a ten. My general feeling in situations like this is simple: I'm not sitting at the table to get that guy's money; he's actually good. You can go to war with him and ship chips back and forth, but your time and effort are better spent going after the weaker players. I don't want to tangle with a good player who has position on me when I have a marginal hand. I'm sure some people will think it nitty or weak or whatever, but I just don't see the point when there are plenty of bad players to abuse. I'm not sitting here for the thrill of competition with good opponents; I'm sitting here for the money. At the very least, you're third to his left, so you'll have plenty of chances to play against him in position. I'm fine with the 4-bet pre as a "hey buddy, I'm serious" kind of bet, but with his call and this flop, I feel like betting here loses money in the long run.
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Apr 28, 2012 00:55
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I would start post flop by staring off into space, pretending to think for a few seconds. Then I would gaze at his stack but nott make it too obvious, although making sure he notices. Then I would return my attention to my own stack, and check very slowly and deliberately. Then I would check fold.
HKS fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Apr 28, 2012 |
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Apr 28, 2012 08:12
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Mind_Taker posted:My first reaction to this min-raise was that it was complete garbage. Min-raises from live droolers mean the nuts most of the time but he isn't a bad player and this raise just seems weird. There's no need to scare me off my hand now. I can't fold here, can I? Pot is about $720 and I have about $515 left behind. What do I do? How should I have played this hand differently? My first reaction to this minraise is "he wants to get value from you AA-KK with his QQ-JJ before some lovely turn comes and makes you the best hand or kills his action." Is he really 3b/flatting button against a utg open with TT-? Agreed with c/f flop I guess.
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Apr 28, 2012 10:10
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Why would I check fold the flop? Why is bet fold not a good option? That flop smacks my range too and a bet will likely get all underpairs to fold. To answer an earlier question, I had been the most aggressive at the table and repeatedly did poo poo like steal from the button, but I don't think I 3-bet before this point. We had been playing for about an hour. I did end up folding to the minraise but his raise felt so weak at the time.
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Apr 28, 2012 17:06
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Mind_Taker posted:Why would I check fold the flop? Why is bet fold not a good option? That flop smacks my range too and a bet will likely get all underpairs to fold. Yeah, but how often does he 3bet TT-22 on the button vs a utg open? Seems like most regs would flat those hands?
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Apr 28, 2012 22:59
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I agree, although 99 and TT are probably gonna be 3-bet by a lot of regs on the button with how active you've been. The big thing that makes it check/fold for me is the fact that he flatted the 4-bet. Yes, the flop theoretically hits your range, but it didn't actually hit you, and this flop is so strongly in his wheelhouse right now that I just don't think there's enough left in his range that will actually fold this flop to merit a c-bet. If you've been reraising a lot preflop or you have some reason to believe this guy will call on the light side and play fit-or-fold, then I'd say bet/fold might be good here, but he'd have to show a pretty serious lack of respect for your reraises.
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Apr 29, 2012 07:15
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^^agree 100% with amnesialab. Definitely 4bet bigger (like 180-200), just makes the hand way easier to play. If we 4bet bigger and he flats makes it much easier to go with the hand on Axx or Kxx since the stack-to-pot-ratio is lower and if we're wrong it's less of a mistake. I don't think I've ever seen someone flat a 4bet in live poker (even like 500bb deep) and he probably just has a monster with our hand at the bottom of his range. Just check-folding the flop he has a flopped set here or overpairs probably 99% of the time. Can justify a cbet if we have FD to go with our gutshot. Unless the guy is a maniac he's not 3betting TT-22 live. He's probably not even 3betting AQ and never flatting a 4bet with it. Regardless he isn't folding if we jam (if that's what you were thinking about) given the size of the pot/how much we have left unless he has exactly TT/same hand as us. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 11:56 on May 5, 2012 |
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May 5, 2012 11:51
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http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1758666 I'm a bit confused by this one. Hold 'em Manager 2 is saying this was a cEV -3218.10 play. Maybe I'm misunderstanding cEV (I ended up winning this tournament) but I don't see how this is a bad play. HEM always brutalises my AA play, but this was a couple away from the bubble so I'm not really following the logic? I'm a bit concerned about my play with big hands though - QQ is my biggest losing hand in terms of BBs apparently... Edit: He mucked 6c 2s on showdown Blobbo fucked around with this message at 23:38 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 23:17
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Blobbo posted:http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1758666 I don't know much about tournament play, but it seems like you should be jamming any hand you play preflop? Not sure why you min3bet.
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May 9, 2012 23:22
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Ranma posted:I don't know much about tournament play, but it seems like you should be jamming any hand you play preflop? Not sure why you min3bet. I suppose with everyone that low in terms of BBs I probably should have. Probably guilty of trying to extract too much value from aces, particularly with a PFR.
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May 9, 2012 23:25
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Yeah, easy ship preflop.
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May 10, 2012 02:38
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Ship that what the hell are you doing
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May 10, 2012 06:57
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Mr.Showtime posted:Ship that what the hell are you doing That's probably what I needed to hear. Trying to play tourneys like cash games I guess. 
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May 11, 2012 06:45
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Not only that, but why pot cbet 4950 leaving 984 behind? As was said, just jam pre with pretty much 100% of your 3b range and probably a bit of the rest too. As played to the flop, though, it's just another jam spot. If you are going to do something other than jam pre, I'd rather call and then jam over any cbet.
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May 11, 2012 14:57
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any advice on how to deal with a "rock" in play? $1/$2 live homegame. $20 taped together. Whoever has it has to Mississippi straddle their next btn with it. Its worth the $20 but you can't use it for regular bets. Whoever has it when game breaks gets the $20, but obviously the more important reason to have it is the free straddle with people limping $20 left and right. If you get allin it counts as a normal $20.
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May 14, 2012 04:39
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Blinky2099 posted:any advice on how to deal with a "rock" in play? I imagine it would just make the game play like a 10-20 game with super short stacks. Does the game play deep?
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May 14, 2012 04:51
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Yeah, pretty deep. Also apparently you can cash out with it any time you want and they throw it back in the next hand. Edit: and they literally just changed it. Can't cash it out unless its end of the night. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 06:12 on May 14, 2012 |
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May 14, 2012 06:08
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1$/2$ live NLHE. I've been at this table for about 10-15 hands. The villain has gotten into a few hands. He's gotten to showdown once with AJ that he played pretty aggressively after pairing the ace on the flop. He seems to be a reg since the dealers know him by name. I'm BB with about $200 with 3 2. UTG, UTG+1, MP (villain), button and SB limp, and I check. The flop comes 564. SB checks. I bet $10. UTG and UTG+1 both call. Villain raises to $75 total. The button and SB fold. I...?I'm thinking that I probably didn't bet enough considering how many people were in the hand. I don't really want to call with two people behind me. Should I shove here?
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May 21, 2012 06:36
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Your flop betsize is fine and I would just jam now but not be too happy about it.
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May 21, 2012 08:30
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Only 37 and 78 beat you right now (37 less likely of course), but there are tons of hands that you beat that he could be raising with. Sets, two-pairs, combo-draws, etc. you are all ahead of at this point. It's possible that UTG or UTG+1 have you beat, but there are two clubs on the board and they didn't raise your initial bet so they probably don't have you beat. If you have a sick read that this guy only raises the nuts maybe you can fold, but you already described a hand where villain played a non-nut hand aggressively so I'd say you shove here too, expecting most of the time to be called but you to be ahead most of the time.
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May 21, 2012 15:01
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Thanks for the replies. That's about what I thought I should do, but I tanked and got scared of sets and the two people behind me and folded it. I think that I fold, especially when I'm newer to the table, more than I really should. I wasn't too happy with myself about doing it at the time. results: UTG and UTG+1 fold, and the villain shows that he had 56 for two pair and said something like, 'See I raise with actual hands.' Oh well, hopefully I learn from this.
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May 21, 2012 23:32
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DrGarbagetree posted:I tanked and got scared of sets Wait, what?
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May 21, 2012 23:48
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Ashenai posted:Wait, what? I convinced myself that the villian had a set. Under that logic I should have called. I don't know. I'm an idiot.
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May 22, 2012 00:30
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DrGarbagetree posted:I convinced myself that the villian had a set. Under that logic I should have called. I don't know. I'm an idiot. Also, if you're confused about whether you're ahead or behind even if villain does have a set when you flopped a straight, you probably shouldn't be playing for money until you get more of an understanding of the rules and basic odds.
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May 22, 2012 06:57
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My local $1/$2 homegame has 10% rake $6 max. I stay for the entire night which is usually about 7-8 hours, in which they rake about $800-$900 for the first $5. The extra 6th dollar in rake is supposed to go to some bullshit freerolls, but they don't run them often enough + they don't pay out anywhere near all of the money they get from it. The 6th dollar rake is roughly $150 a night. I think it's safe to say they rake about $140/hour at $200 avg stack $1/2 game, and run about 7, maybe 8 handed on average. So over the course of 7 hours, 7-handed average, the average player is paying $140 in rake, or 70 big blinds. Assuming ~30? hands per hour (not sure if that number is accurate), it equals out to around 210 hands per night. So I'd have to be beating the game at around 33bb/100 or 16.5BB/100 in a rakeless format. I have no idea how 16.5BB/100 rakeless compares to what a winrate under normal rake settings looks like, but it seems pretty ridiculously high. Is it even possible for me to be beating this game, let alone making ANY reasonable hourly rate? In order for me to be making $10/hr I'd need 5bb per 30 hands or 16.6bb/100 on top of the rake, or 24.8BB/100 or 49.6bb/100 total (in a rakeless setting). Edit: That's not even counting tips. I probably wouldn't even be invited to the game if I didn't tip $1 per any reasonable hand ($30 or $40+). I'm playing tight, so I guess I should be paying way less rake than other players... I really don't know any better way to estimate what my winrate needs to look like though, so any input would be appreciated. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 08:04 on May 22, 2012 |
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May 22, 2012 07:15
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If your estimates are right (30h/h and $140/h rake) the average pot size would be about $50 so I'd say that's a pretty lively game. Probably beatable but as it's $1/2 live not for not any reasonable hourly. Go and have some fun if it's a good and friendly atmosphere but don't expect to be able to turn a huge profit.
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May 22, 2012 10:56
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I'm gonna start running a home game and make bank.
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May 22, 2012 18:03
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