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Azure_Horizon posted:I dunno about that at all. The fact that Squall takes a near-fatal wound and then is magically better with no holes in his clothes or any sign of the wound is bizarre enough. Any cohesiveness in FF8 is only felt in Disc 1. Afterward, everything just kind of falls apart. 
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May 22, 2012 22:58
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NikkolasKing posted:I feel the same way. XIII is a thoroughly perplexing game because I bitched about the extreme linearity but once we got to Pulse, I missed that linearity. At least poo poo was happening and characters were developing in the first 70% of the game. once everything opens up, the game seems to lose itself. To be fair, I didn't hate any of the main plot, it just did nothing to really endear itself. Like I said before, there were some nice scenes on Pulse and I actually really like Oerba, it's just they serve no practical purpose. Then Space Pope shows up and lets you know that if you won't break Cocoon, he will and it's off to the races, power of will, and Deus ex Machina. I didn't hate any of that, and the battles were still fun and the visuals were still great and I still liked the music, so there was no reason for me to feel like it invalidate the stuff I did like about the plot.
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May 22, 2012 23:09
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I still can't wrap my mind around the argument of: Squall takes a severe wound from a magical attack in a world where magic is a real thing and the only possible explanation for him suddenly magically being healed with no signs of a wound is, "HE'S REALLY SLOWLY BLEEDING OUT AND EVERYTHING FROM THAT POINT ON IS A HALLUCINATION HIS DYING MIND MAKES UP BECAUSE SQUARESOFT WAS TOTALLY REFERENCING SOME SHORT STORY I ONCE READ IN MIDDLE SCHOOL AND IT'S MORE SYMBOLIC AND DEEP AND MEANINGFUL THAN THE STUPID ORPHANAGE PLOT TWIST AAAAAAHHHHHHH"  No. Just no. He was injured, then healed magically offscreen. It wasn't ever shown in-game because the people making the game more than likely assumed the audience would be smart enough to remember, "Oh, right, healing magic," and move on from there.
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May 22, 2012 23:13
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Except nowhere is it shown where he was healed, when it was done, who it was by, nothing. It's as if it never happened, and if we're supposed to imply that someone casted Cure on him then that's just dumb. It's a plothole in a game that has enough plotholes to fill a meteorite crater.
Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 23:27 on May 22, 2012 |
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May 22, 2012 23:24
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W.T. Fits posted:No. Just no. He was injured, then healed magically offscreen. It wasn't ever shown in-game because the people making the game more than likely assumed the audience would be smart enough to remember, "Oh, right, healing magic," and move on from there. Oh yeah? Then how do you explain Aeris, smart guy? 
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May 22, 2012 23:26
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Krad posted:Oh yeah? Then how do you explain Aeris, smart guy? That was a weapon attack, not a magic attack. 
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May 22, 2012 23:29
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W.T. Fits posted:I still can't wrap my mind around the argument of: And that's why video games suck.
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May 22, 2012 23:32
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Azure_Horizon posted:Except nowhere is it shown where he was healed And it shouldn't have to be if you can be assed to remember that magic healing exists and logical enough to extrapolate that conclusion on your own. I would rather have the game developers assume I'm smart enough to draw a simple logical conclusion than have them assume I'm dumb enough to need every minor plot detail explained away because otherwise "OH MY GOD THIS MAKES NO SENSE". The game's pacing is already atrocious. Do you really need an extra five to ten minute scene of Edea monologuing as she or one of her goons casts Curaga on Squall before cuffing his unconscious rear end and dragging him off to prison?
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May 22, 2012 23:36
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W.T. Fits posted:And it shouldn't have to be if you can be assed to remember that magic healing exists and logical enough to extrapolate that conclusion on your own. I would rather have the game developers assume I'm smart enough to draw a simple logical conclusion than have them assume I'm dumb enough to need every minor plot detail explained away because otherwise "OH MY GOD THIS MAKES NO SENSE". It would take all of two seconds, which is how long it took for Selphie to heal a Moomba following the scene. It would have been better than Squall having a ridiculous dumb-sounding inner monologue about his wound... no wound... ?!!
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May 22, 2012 23:37
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W.T. Fits posted:And it shouldn't have to be if you can be assed to remember that magic healing exists and logical enough to extrapolate that conclusion on your own. I would rather have the game developers assume I'm smart enough to draw a simple logical conclusion than have them assume I'm dumb enough to need every minor plot detail explained away because otherwise "OH MY GOD THIS MAKES NO SENSE". Don't have Squall point out his wound is gone for no reason then. If he can't even think of someone using Cure, we shouldn't have to either.
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May 22, 2012 23:37
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Yeah, I also think it's bullshit that people are constantly being killed by poisonous gas and death magic and big sharp claws and being crushed by boulders and every time they can just huff some phoenix feathers and come back, except for when you can't because the sword is just too long.
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May 22, 2012 23:44
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Azure_Horizon posted:It would take all of two seconds, which is how long it took for Selphie to heal a Moomba following the scene. It would have been better than Squall having a ridiculous dumb-sounding inner monologue about his wound... no wound... ?!! Or you could, you know, use your brain to figure out that someone must have healed him off camera. Maybe even use in-game evidence to support that it's possible for people to be healed by magic outside of combat. Like, say, by a two-second scene of Selphie using Cure to heal a Moomba.
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May 23, 2012 00:06
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http://squallsdead.com/ 
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May 23, 2012 00:10
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Squall is completely out during the whole thing. The player doesn't witness anything that happened between him getting pierced apart and him waking up healed. There's nothing incredibly obtuse about it; we were playing only on his point of view until then, and it made thematic sense to continue to do so at least until he woke up. It's not rocket science.
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May 23, 2012 00:11
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Krad posted:It is if you only end up with a bunch of side-quests instead of a continuous narrative. I enjoy the World of Ruin part but it really could have used a lot more unique dialogue for characters. Even a little bit could have gone a long way instead of having a lot of vague unlabeled "lead character dialogue".
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May 23, 2012 00:16
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W.T. Fits posted:Or you could, you know, use your brain to figure out that someone must have healed him off camera. Maybe even use in-game evidence to support that it's possible for people to be healed by magic outside of combat. Like, say, by a two-second scene of Selphie using Cure to heal a Moomba. Or, they could, you know, just have had a scene where Squall gets cured or not have him mention the wound at all with him just waking up to find himself imprisoned.
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May 23, 2012 00:59
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Yeah, if my last memory was of me being pierced by a magic icicle and bleed to death in front of Rinoa, when I would next wake up I wouldn't even wonder what the hell happened and why there is no longer a hole in my chest. Makes sense. But please, carry on your rant and ignore everyone making a point outright explaining why your argument is silly.
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May 23, 2012 01:02
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Saoshyant posted:Yeah, if my last memory was of me being pierced by a magic popcicle and bleed to death in front of Rinoa, when I would next wake up I wouldn't even wonder what the hell happened and why there is no longer a hole in my chest. Makes sense. It would fit well with everything else FF8 fails to explain about anything. The point is that it comes off as a dumb scene. Like someone else pointed out, if Squall can't even figure out how he got healed, then why should we infer anything? If Squall had said, "My wound... no wound... must have been a Cure spell..." then the whole scene would work. Instead, it just leaves a huge hole in what happened. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 01:06 on May 23, 2012 |
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May 23, 2012 01:03
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Azure_Horizon posted:Like someone else pointed out, if Squall can't even figure out how he got healed, then why should we infer anything? Because then your laziness just makes you come across as being stupider than Squall. He didn't think of it because it wasn't important. You're deliberately choosing not to think of it because he didn't.
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May 23, 2012 01:18
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W.T. Fits posted:Because then your laziness just makes you come across as being stupider than Squall. He didn't think of it because it wasn't important. You're deliberately choosing not to think of it because he didn't. Because a character in-game should be able to recognize some semblance of the universe's logic, ESPECIALLY when another character proceeds to Cure someone else five minutes later. It's outright non-explanation, much like most of the rest of FF8. It's the point where the game just has things happening and refuses to actually explain any of it, besides "oh poo poo that was cool!"
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May 23, 2012 01:21
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Azure_Horizon posted:Because a character in-game should be able to recognize some semblance of the universe's logic, ESPECIALLY when another character proceeds to Cure someone else five minutes later. It's not important for Squall to recognize it, as long as the player understands it. They choose to convey the information by having Selphie heal the Moomba because it gives her something to do in the next scene while Quistis and Zell are talking about other poo poo. That way, the player gets both an explanation for why Squall's not dead at the same they get exposition about other stuff that's happening. In other words, they used a storytelling technique ("show, don't tell") to fill in the plot hole you think is there, but you're just too hellbent on hating on the game to recognize it. Did they do a poor job of utilizing this particular technique? Of course they did, they utilized poor storytelling techniques throughout the game. That doesn't invalidate the fact that they conveyed the loving information required for you to figure out how Squall survived, and if you continue to choose not to recognize that, then you're just being willfully obtuse out of spite for the game.
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May 23, 2012 01:59
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Even if it's just a dumb theory, the fact is that FF8's story is such poo poo that "Squall is dead" actually makes it better.
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May 23, 2012 04:56
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Evil Fluffy posted:Even if it's just a dumb theory, the fact is that FF8's story is such poo poo that "Squall is dead" actually makes it better. Discussion over.
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May 23, 2012 06:30
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In all these years I never knew that "Squall is dead" and "Why is there no wound!!!" was a thing people in all seriousness discussed. I wish I had gone longer, not knowing.
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May 23, 2012 08:46
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Valigarmanda posted:Discussion over. In other news: I think I preferred Tritoch over Valigarmanda for the name of that Esper. What the hell is a Valigarmanda anyway? However, I do like that he was subtly hinted at existing in FFXIII-2.
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May 23, 2012 09:03
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Azure_Horizon posted:In other news: I think I preferred Tritoch over Valigarmanda for the name of that Esper. What the hell is a Valigarmanda anyway? However, I do like that he was subtly hinted at existing in FFXIII-2. It's a weird mangling of like "vary-garuda-salamander" or something. Which makes sense because it looks like a garuda with salamander bits.
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May 23, 2012 11:04
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Yeah, it's basically supposed to be three elemental-themed beasts in one. Kind of a chimera but goofier.
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 23, 2012 |
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May 23, 2012 18:11
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Azure_Horizon posted:In other news: I think I preferred Tritoch over Valigarmanda for the name of that Esper. What the hell is a Valigarmanda anyway? However, I do like that he was subtly hinted at existing in FFXIII-2. Did you pronounce it Try-toch or Tri-tock or tree-tock? I've heard so many different ways!
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May 23, 2012 18:58
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Valigarmanda posted:Did you pronounce it Try-toch or Tri-tock or tree-tock? I've heard so many different ways! Try-toch and tri-tock have the same pronunciation.  But that one.
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May 23, 2012 22:28
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So is there any word on if the "Heroes of Light and Darkness" game is actually going to come out in english? Because I need a new Job System Final Fantasy like I need food and water.
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May 24, 2012 02:54
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Dr Pepper posted:So is there any word on if the "Heroes of Light and Darkness" game is actually going to come out in english? Because I need a new Job System Final Fantasy like I need food and water. None, and no word on Bravery Default either. Cross your fingers for E3, I guess.
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May 24, 2012 03:11
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Dr Pepper posted:So is there any word on if the "Heroes of Light and Darkness" game is actually going to come out in english? Because I need a new Job System Final Fantasy like I need food and water. There's been no news in any language since the iOS port was announced at TGS.
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May 24, 2012 03:43
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Jesus Christ, I looked at my subscriptions and noticed, hey! Over 100+ posts! Maybe there's some news on a new FF game, because after all, E3 is in a few weeks! And then I clicked the read latest posts button. Haha. In short, I agree with WTFits. FF8 is a game that repeatedly uses a specific storytelling technique where they don't explain basic poo poo because they expect the player to be on the ball. It's painfully obvious that is how Squall is alive. He was needed for interrogation, what does Edea gain from his death? Nothing. Maybe they could have added a "Maybe they healed me? But for what?" after the "no wound?" line, maybe not. But the logic is already there and merits zero questioning beyond petty fan discussion. I find it interesting how a lot of FF8's detractors complain about the story and storytelling but then end up being mad that certain things aren't specifically said, but are heavily implied and need the game to guide them to understand what's going on , like in any every other Final Fantasy. Isn't it ironic that their favorite entry to hate on for its story is also the one Final Fantasy - besides 12, of course  - that does gives its audience enough credit to figure out what's going on without explaining and hand holding them through each and every detail?
Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 08:45 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 08:43
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Himuro posted:Jesus Christ, I looked at my subscriptions and noticed, hey! Over 100+ posts! Maybe there's some news on a new FF game, because after all, E3 is in a few weeks!
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May 24, 2012 09:28
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Azure_Horizon posted:This definitely explains why nothing past Disc 1 makes any sense, of course. Again, I call bullshit, the game makes fine sense up until Ultimecia comes out of nowhere and you're like "Wait what? Edea's not the main villain??" I think that's on the third disc, but maybe its on the second. Yeah the story falls apart like every Final Fantasy game, but you gotta be pretty thick to not be able to follow the game immediately after Disc 1.
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May 24, 2012 16:27
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Thing is with Ultimecia, you've got the scrapings of a good backstory there, what with the whole trying to prevent a pre-ordained fate, persecuted and feared as a sorceress thing, but no. There was a good suggestion in the FFVIII thread, about her intercepting the party at different times, which from her point of view would be in a non-linear fashion or something along those lines. Really hammer in that time travel stuff. But of course, the game designers really wanted that love story didn't they. 
Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 17:13 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 17:11
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It shouldn't be a surprise that FF8's story is a bit of a mess; it was constructed from a bunch of ideas that didn't make it into FF7. Edea was originally supposed to be in FF7, for example; so was the whole sorceress-and-her-knight thing.
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May 24, 2012 18:22
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As opposed to FF13-2 literally being made of up bits that they couldn't fit into the first game.
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May 24, 2012 19:05
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That loving Sned posted:As opposed to FF13-2 literally being made of up bits that they couldn't fit into the first game.  "Oh, but they didn't do that!" quote:"I think those comments have been really badly misinterpreted. The fact is that when making any game you need to come up with lots of different ideas and designs that you weigh up against each other before picking the best one. Obviously in that process a lot of ideas and designs have to be discarded," he explained.
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May 24, 2012 19:14
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Fungah! posted:You what? The World of Ruin was awesome. Wander the world and see what it looks like post-apocalypse, doing cool quests and getting the band back together! Or don't, go right to the final dungeon! Whatever man! There was a ton of great stuff and just because the overarching plot was more or less wrapped up until it was time to kill Kefka doesn't mean there weren't a bunch of cool plotlines to follow up on. The problem I had was theres this weird synchronization with what's going on. Because of the non-linearity the character's personal quests are all so self contained, and once they're over the characters become mute (outside of the generic dialouge thats assigned based on party slots). It just makes everything feel so disconnected from the actual events going on in the world, and in a way makes their quests feel meaningless because they will never again come up until the ending credits. FF6 suffered a bit from having too many characters. The early characters get like Terra, Locke, Celes, Edgar and Sabin are really deep and great. Characters like Mog and Cyan...eh.
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