|
DFW is one of those authors I always give the benefit of the doubt. I'm not sure that's the Right Thing but every time I reflect over it it boils down to "but who am I to argue...".
|
#
?
May 29, 2012 08:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 21:18 |
|
|
Rogue Elephant posted:That chapter was pretty painful to read but it kind of fits; he developed an evolved form of English in the book, including new slang terms and idioms and so on. I may be reading into it a bit far, but in his American usage essay he discusses how in many ways Standard Black English is a more evolved dialect than Standard Written (white) English. The example he gives if I recall is that SBE 'normalizes' a lot of irregular verbs, so 'is' becomes 'be'. 'Wardine be cry' is like an exaggerated/evolved version where not only is the present tense made regular, but the past tense is too, and even verbs like 'cry' have been made... super-regular? I'm sure there was an idea behind it, I'm saying in this case it was a pretty bad idea that someone should have talked him out of leaving in the final version. He was a really smart dude but he wasn't infallible. IJ is still arguably my favorite novel of all time, so it's not liked it wrecked the book. It was just one relatively small part of it that didn't work on several levels. MourningView fucked around with this message at 14:00 on May 29, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2012 13:56
|
|
|
Started IJ today, I was debating reading Broom of the System first but I've had IJ for like...two years now, and man I'm already hooked 40 pages in. I do have to agree that Wallace's efforts at ebonics are....mediocre at best. It felt like a parody of a Southern Plantation story or something. How much more of that will I have to endure?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 01:30
|
|
|
Very little.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 01:43
|
|
|
Honestly, I completely forgot about that section until you all brought it up. It's a minor part of a very good book. What's the consensus on The Pale King? I've been thinking about picking it up, but I'm worried it's going to be disjointed and fragmentary.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 02:35
|
|
|
Slackerish posted:Started IJ today, I was debating reading Broom of the System first but I've had IJ for like...two years now, and man I'm already hooked 40 pages in. Unless I'm totally forgetting something, I don't think he ever returns to that voice. If he does it's extremely brief. It's painful, but it's thankfully a very small part of the book, which gets significantly better as you get further into it. barkingclam posted:What's the consensus on The Pale King? I've been thinking about picking it up, but I'm worried it's going to be disjointed and fragmentary. If you like DFW, I think it's worth checking out. It's pretty rough and obviously unfinished, but what's there is still pretty good, and it's just nice to have something else of his to read. MourningView fucked around with this message at 04:10 on May 30, 2012 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 04:05
|
|
|
barkingclam posted:Honestly, I completely forgot about that section until you all brought it up. It's a minor part of a very good book.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 04:47
|
|
|
escape artist posted:It's actually a memoir masquerading as a fictional novel. I'm about 1/4 of the way through it, and I love it! Is it really? I read about 1/2 of it so far and I'm not really sure if it's actually that or he just wants us to think that. Like some sort of weird meta-fiction-nonfiction something or other.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 05:23
|
|
|
The Wardine section gets a ton of hate, which I can understand as I didn't like it much on first read, but I had fun last I read it since it works out like a game of Mad Gab. Good God I have to finish this book. I think about it way too much to have only read a quarter of it  . Second shot at an infinite summer, wish me luck.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 13:56
|
|
|
PopZeus posted:Is it really? I read about 1/2 of it so far and I'm not really sure if it's actually that or he just wants us to think that. Like some sort of weird meta-fiction-nonfiction something or other. Well, I can't say for sure, but Section 9 was quite convincing, and the book definitely reads like a hybrid of his journalism and his fiction. I'm only 1/4 of the way through the book, so I honestly know less than you do in that regard, and I'm not about to Google it for fear of spoilers. I guess it's a discussion to be had once we both finish. Either way, I must say that I am enjoying it immensely at the moment. The man is obviously brilliant and gifted, and one of his gifts is revealing the depth in a subject that many might consider superficially dull. His philosophical and psychological analysis of "the dull" is just incredible, profound. He really is one of a kind.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2012 14:22
|
|
|
escape artist posted:It's actually a memoir masquerading as a fictional novel. I'm about 1/4 of the way through it, and I love it!
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2012 01:43
|
|
|
Sir John Feelgood posted:You have that backwards. Really? Well, you can imagine how confusing it was to figure out, after reading Section 9.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2012 03:22
|
|
|
escape artist posted:Tried to buy IJ today, but B&N was sold out-- actually, they had one in stock, some jackass just hid it somewhere. Picked up Pale King instead. Looking very forward to delving into it! I didn't finish Pale King, only got about halfway through and got distracted. But just know it's really unfinished and pales in comparison to IJ. So much so that I would almost recommend reading IJ first. I think you'll have more patience to both finish (not that it's extraordinarily long) and appreciate Pale King. Also if you like the other DFW you have read just wait. IJ is going to rock your world. It lives up the hype. It makes Broom of the System look like it was written by Dan Brown. I am almost jealous you haven't read it yet. EDIT: Missed some posts on this page, looks like you're enjoying PK regardless 
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2012 06:31
|
|
|
hobbez posted:I didn't finish Pale King, only got about halfway through and got distracted. But just know it's really unfinished and pales in comparison to IJ. So much so that I would almost recommend reading IJ first. I think you'll have more patience to both finish (not that it's extraordinarily long) and appreciate Pale King. Yeah I'm about 1/3 done with Pale King and its amazing. I went out to look for IJ, to several bookstores and libraries, and all I could find was Pale King, so I just picked that up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2012 16:32
|
|
|
Does anybody have a hardcover copy of Oblivion? I'm looking to discover what typeface it was published in. Many thanks in advance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2012 04:02
|
|
|
ProperCoochie posted:Does anybody have a hardcover copy of Oblivion? I'm looking to discover what typeface it was published in. Many thanks in advance. Amazon and Googlebooks allow you to preview a certain chunk of most books. Might that help? Try this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0316010766/ref=sib_dp_pop_ex?ie=UTF8&p=S00D#reader-link
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2012 04:25
|
|
|
Pete Zah posted:Good God I have to finish this book. I think about it way too much to have only read a quarter of it I'm almost finished with 1Q84, which I started in February. REALLY, almost phenomenally good, but again for some reason I have read a handful of books since then as well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2012 01:56
|
|
|
I decided to reread IJ out of the blue - about 10% in (this time I'm doing kindle so I don't have to cart that heavy fucker around). People were talking about hating the Wardine be cry poo poo - personally I HATED the first appearance of Marathe, and remember almost giving up the first time i got there. Then it gets good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2012 14:38
|
|
|
barkingclam posted:What's the consensus on The Pale King? I've been thinking about picking it up, but I'm worried it's going to be disjointed and fragmentary. About IJ, I don't know why the 'Wardine be cry' section gets so much poo poo, it's been awhile but I thought it's like a page and a half in a huge book.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2012 15:30
|
|
|
I finished the Pale King earlier this week and I think it is fantastic. I haven't read IJ yet (I know, I know...), but Pale King was immensely enjoyable. It will leave you wanting more, because there are lots of "false starts" and "dead ends" as one reviewer put it. It is very disjointed, with "subsections" (not chapters) sometimes 2 pages long, sometimes 100 pages long, and they are never linear. But I don't have anything but good things to say about it, except the occasional suicide jokes (given the IRS setting and DFW's suicide) are bittersweet. Mostly bitter. It's hard to detach the author from these jokes, especially when he is inserted as a character in the novel. Anyway, just read it. For the amazing characters, the hilarious commentary on boring day-to-day situations, the occasional bizarre laugh, the tragedy, the philosophy, the psychoanalyses.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2012 22:58
|
|
|
Does anybody else think despite the idea that suicide victims don't deserve respect (which seems really common and contentious and not something I could ever come to believe, I think) that it was pretty poor form for the editor, and the wife and so on to publish the unfinished work of a deceased perfectionist, especially a piece of writing that had no real point or otherwise real world allusions (besides if you can get a handle on boredom you can probably get a handle on anything and some great little fictional back storying of colleagues)? Although, I guess you get what you personally get out of anything, so maybe someone can find some life affirmation out of The Pale King but I look at it more like Da Vinci (as a go to artist) died painting his last picture and The Church as his benefactor (possibly historically inaccurate) sort of hummed and hawed and then said gently caress it, and hung it anyway and it's like the Mona Lisa without her eyes. This is the conclusion I've come to after a week of thinking post finishing the book. I don't like it. EDIT: I mean to say the writing is mostly amazing except in parts where it doesn't feel amazing or even like David Foster Wallace, but I don't like it as an existing book. As a thing. I finished it and just pushed it away from myself. Then went back later and it was still there and I swapped it for Birdsong by Sebastian Faulk which I'm not exactly loving but do not regret as a swap. Helmacron fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jun 9, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 05:33
|
|
|
Helmacron posted:Does anybody else think despite the idea that suicide victims don't deserve respect (which seems really common and contentious and not something I could ever come to believe, I think) that it was pretty poor form for the editor, and the wife and so on to publish the unfinished work of a deceased perfectionist, especially a piece of writing that had no real point or otherwise real world allusions (besides if you can get a handle on boredom you can probably get a handle on anything and some great little fictional back storying of colleagues)? His editor and his wife knew him better than anyone in this thread. This wasn't Courntey Love making her husband's corpse do a tapdance for money, and being that he left a manuscript along with his suicide note I feel like that's what he would have wanted.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 05:58
|
|
|
If I recall correctly, Wallace deliberately set out his manuscripts for his wife to find in one big neat pile. It's a contentious issue, but I dunno, the world with more DFW is better than it would be otherwise. I picked up his essay books recently. I was gonna dive in with Infinite Jest, but I'm already in the middle of Against the Day and have a handful of other pretty weighty novels lined up, so I figured his nonfic would be a change of pace and a good introduction. Jesus, I can't believe I never read any of his stuff until now. He's so funny and genuine and self-deprecating and insightful and just insanely loving smart in general.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 06:00
|
|
|
Criminal Minded posted:If I recall correctly, Wallace deliberately set out his manuscripts for his wife to find in one big neat pile. This. He wanted them to be published, and made it quite clear with his actions before his suicide. This is hardly a case of new 2pac songs every year for 18 years. Criminal Minded posted:Jesus, I can't believe I never read any of his stuff until now. He's so funny and genuine and self-deprecating and insightful and just insanely loving smart in general. That's how I felt when I finally picked up his essays, which got me into all of his other work. Lobster festivals, tennis, cruises, porn award shows, the IRS... the man can wax philosophical on any issue, at the same time making it interesting, relevant and downright funny. He is one of a kind. Helmacron posted:Does anybody else think despite the idea that suicide victims don't deserve respect (which seems really common and contentious and not something I could ever come to believe, I think) that it was pretty poor form for the editor, and the wife and so on to publish the unfinished work of a deceased perfectionist, especially a piece of writing that had no real point or otherwise real world allusions (besides if you can get a handle on boredom you can probably get a handle on anything and some great little fictional back storying of colleagues)? I don't understand the animosity toward people who have attempted or committed suicide. Most people don't know what it is like to have crippling depression. It's like a person who has never smoked or drank in their life telling a drug addict to "stop being an idiot!", or as a friend of mine put it, a skinny person telling [her] to "just stop eating!" I mean, first of all, people like to brand those who commit suicide as cowards. Really? Not that I endorse the idea but, ending your own life takes a hell of a lot of balls, for lack of a better word. I had been (note the past tense) suicidal for a few years following a diagnosis of a chronic physical illness and the disjunction of life expectations that followed, as I struggled to walk, while all my friends finished school, got married, had kids, et cetera. I tried suicide twice. I only ever had one person (out of a dozen or so) give me any sort of respect. He invited me out for drinks and we talked at length, and he concluded with "I hope it does not come down to that, but if you do decide to check out, I'll say a good word about you." It was such a stark contrast to the general bullshit you hear: "coward!" "idiot!" "selfish!" Really, I find it idiotic and selfish and cowardly that you want me to stick around and suffer in physical and mental anguish for whatever reasons you've failed to adequately express. Anyway, I'm getting off topic here. It hurts me that DFW is gone. I cried when I heard the news, and I wish he was still alive, writing beautiful essays and prose (that is selfish), but it has done nothing to alter the respect I have for him as a writer and as a person. When he committed suicide, he was on MAOIs, which are the most dangerous type of anti-depressants, and are considered "last resorts" in the psychiatric world. It's not like he up and said "gently caress everything" one day, he had been valiantly battling depression for 30+ years. escape artist fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Jun 9, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 06:10
|
|
|
Criminal Minded posted:If I recall correctly, Wallace deliberately set out his manuscripts for his wife to find in one big neat pile. It's a contentious issue, but I dunno, the world with more DFW is better than it would be otherwise. You have to read a loooot closer with Pynchon than you do with Infinite Jest. I'm cruising through IJ was surprisingly little difficulty (though I'm still not far due to my habit of reading multiple books at once, and I'm also reading Falling Man and I just started The Satanic Verses). I would recommend keeping a jounral so you can keep track of the characters but other than that it's not as dense as a novel as everyone told me it would be. Absolutely check out Brief Interviews With Hideous Men too. I know I'm echoing that but it's so true.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 11:47
|
|
|
Slackerish posted:You have to read a loooot closer with Pynchon than you do with Infinite Jest. I'm cruising through IJ was surprisingly little difficulty (though I'm still not far due to my habit of reading multiple books at once, and I'm also reading Falling Man and I just started The Satanic Verses). I would recommend keeping a jounral so you can keep track of the characters but other than that it's not as dense as a novel as everyone told me it would be. Have you read House of Leaves? Because that book is giving me a loving headache and I've got like 4 Pynchon novels* in my queue, but I want something light, not something I have to pay too much attention to, to balance out the insanity and head-ache inducing House of Leaves. Inherent Vice seems like a pretty straightforward story... *Gravity's Rainbow *Inherent Vice *Crying of Lot 49 *V.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 17:02
|
|
|
Helmacron posted:Does anybody else think despite the idea that suicide victims don't deserve respect (which seems really common and contentious and not something I could ever come to believe, I think) that it was pretty poor form for the editor, and the wife and so on to publish the unfinished work of a deceased perfectionist, especially a piece of writing that had no real point or otherwise real world allusions (besides if you can get a handle on boredom you can probably get a handle on anything and some great little fictional back storying of colleagues)? Aside from DFW's final wishes about his manuscripts, remember that plenty of good books have come out only after their author's death. Pale King is one example, but others include A Confederacy of Dunces, the poetry of Emily Dickinson and Kafka's The Trial. Kafka's a pretty good example actually: I'm pretty sure he asked for his unpublished stuff to be destroyed after his death but Max Brod went ahead and published them anyway. I completely agree with his editor's choice to publish The Pale King.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 17:21
|
|
|
escape artist posted:Have you read House of Leaves? Because that book is giving me a loving headache and I've got like 4 Pynchon novels* in my queue, but I want something light, not something I have to pay too much attention to, to balance out the insanity and head-ache inducing House of Leaves. Inherent Vice seems like a pretty straightforward story... Of those two I've only read GR and Lot 49. Nothing needs to be said about the complexity of GR, but Lot 49 isn't very tricky. I'm honestly not a terribly big fan of it (I liked Vineland, usually considered Pynchon's weakest, much much more), but for all its zany antics, it's linear, and the cast of characters, by Pynchon's insane standards, is modestly sized. There's still plenty of uncertainty and paranoia and conspiracy running throughout, but that's what Pynchon's all about so it's to be expected. Plus it's short enough to read in a day if you get hooked - I may have to revisit it soon just on general principles. Surprisingly, Against the Day is...well, I'll put it this way. It's as straightforward as I ever could have expected a 1,100 page novel spanning three decades and every continent written by Thomas Pynchon to be. I'm just about to start the fourth section and I'm pretty clear on who's done what and who knows who etc. There's still a number of gaps in my memory, and an unfortunate lack of chapter guides handy online, but still. Not that I'd recognize diving in with this; I suspect that I find it easier only in comparison to GR, which is just...  (But totally amazing. That's key!)Anyway, back on topic. I finally got around to reading DFW's Kenyon commencement speech last night before I went to bed. I'd seen it passed around the internet plenty, but never took the time to read it because, pffft, a commencement speech? Those things suck. So of course DFW pretty much acknowledges that in the first 30 seconds and proceeds to completely own me. I think that speech made it clearer than ever how utterly sympathetic I am to DFW; his thoughts are pretty much my thoughts, though obviously filtered through a much more brilliant, analytical and insightful mind. His compassion for others, his acknowledgment of the human tendency to be totally self-centered, his deliberations to break free of that self-centeredness and give other people the benefit of the doubt...it's like he's reading my mind. (If it sounds like I'm bragging about how compassionate I am, that's not what I intend to do at all - I'm more referring to the whole benefit-of-the-doubt thing.) Now I'm just sad I didn't take the time to read and appreciate him while he was alive.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 17:34
|
|
|
escape artist posted:Have you read House of Leaves? Because that book is giving me a loving headache and I've got like 4 Pynchon novels* in my queue, but I want something light, not something I have to pay too much attention to, to balance out the insanity and head-ache inducing House of Leaves. Inherent Vice seems like a pretty straightforward story... I read House of Leaves a looong time ago actually, I was only 14. It went way over my head but I throughly enjoyed it and still come back to it from time to time. That said the writing isn't even aeons close to the quality of Pynchon or DFW. As far as Pynchon goes, Crying of Lot 49 is a fairly easy read. V. is as well. I haven't read Inherent Vice but that's reputed as his most accesible novel. Gravity's Rainbow and Against the Day are both total mindfucks. I don't know much about Vineland or Mason & Dixon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2012 18:20
|
|
|
escape artist posted:Have you read House of Leaves? Because that book is giving me a loving headache and I've got like 4 Pynchon novels* in my queue, but I want something light, not something I have to pay too much attention to, to balance out the insanity and head-ache inducing House of Leaves. Inherent Vice seems like a pretty straightforward story... Inherent Vice is incredibly accessible, while I had more trouble with Gravity's Rainbow than either House of Leaves or Infinite Jest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjWKPdDk0_U is a promo video for Inherent Vice, and if you seem at all interested after the video I'd give it a go.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 03:31
|
|
|
Kaizoku posted:Inherent Vice is incredibly accessible, while I had more trouble with Gravity's Rainbow than either House of Leaves or Infinite Jest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjWKPdDk0_U is a promo video for Inherent Vice, and if you seem at all interested after the video I'd give it a go. Inherent Vice is just a great book. I liked it more than any other Pynchon (probably because I didn't feel like I needed to be taking a college course to understand it). I'd say it's closest to DFW in style too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 03:44
|
|
|
Slackerish posted:As far as Pynchon goes, Crying of Lot 49 is a fairly easy read. V. is as well. I haven't read Inherent Vice but that's reputed as his most accesible novel. Gravity's Rainbow and Against the Day are both total mindfucks. I don't know much about Vineland or Mason & Dixon. Mason & Dixon is by far the least accessible of his books that I've tried to read. gregarious Ted posted:I decided to reread IJ out of the blue - about 10% in (this time I'm doing kindle so I don't have to cart that heavy fucker around). People were talking about hating the Wardine be cry poo poo - personally I HATED the first appearance of Marathe, and remember almost giving up the first time i got there. Then it gets good. Yeah first couple of those annoyed the poo poo out of me because I didn't know what the the point was and they were taking me away from stuff that I was far more interested in, but I got into them pretty quickly. MourningView fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Jun 11, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 05:43
|
|
|
MourningView posted:Mason & Dixon is by far the least accessible of his books that I've tried to read. I'm deliberately saving that one for last. It looks...intimidating.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 06:17
|
|
|
MourningView posted:Yeah first couple of those annoyed the poo poo out of me because I didn't know what the the point was and they were taking me away from stuff that I was far more interested in, but I got into them pretty quickly. Have you read the Pale King?
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 10:53
|
|
|
Criminal Minded posted:I'm deliberately saving that one for last. It looks...intimidating. I'm reading it currently and it's not quite as inaccesible as it first appears. Plus, it's actually a straightforward linear narrative unlike most of Pynchon's work. That said, it's not terribly uncommon for me to have absolutely no idea what an entire paragraph was trying to say. In contrast to DFW, where I can often (though not always...) puzzle out the meaning of words I don't know, Pynchon has no such desire to give you any context. And on the topic of DFW - Pynchon comparisons, does anyone else find there is really little to them aside from surface similiarities? Like, they were/are both brilliant men who wrote/write some huge books, but I don't find their writing very comparable at all. Closest thing I can see to DFW is DeLillo, and that's more thematic than anything.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 14:20
|
|
|
Criminal Minded posted:I'm deliberately saving that one for last. It looks...intimidating. I'm going to re-read Mason & Dixon, because I kind of had to muddle through most of the book, but then the end was absolutely beautiful. Like made-me-almost-cry beautiful.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 16:47
|
|
|
ultrachrist posted:And on the topic of DFW - Pynchon comparisons, does anyone else find there is really little to them aside from surface similiarities? Like, they were/are both brilliant men who wrote/write some huge books, but I don't find their writing very comparable at all. Closest thing I can see to DFW is DeLillo, and that's more thematic than anything. I haven't read enough Pynchon (or Wallace, really) to give an accurate statement but from what I HAVE read I agree completely. Like someone said in the Pynchon thread, I haven't found anyone who even writes kind of like Pynchon. Has anyone read "The Instructions?" It was written by Adam Levin, who went to school with one of my best friends. It's 1,000 pages long and drew a lot of DFW comparisons. I picked up his short story collection that he recently released called "Hot Pink" because it seemed to be getting positive reviews so I'll report back once I get to it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2012 23:18
|
|
|
escape artist posted:Have you read the Pale King? Yeah, I mostly liked it. Or at least I think I did. It's sort of hard to separate the actual work from being sad that he's dead and clinging to the last little bit of his writing available. It's rough and very obviously unfinished, but there's good stuff in there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2012 00:15
|
|
|
Slackerish posted:Has anyone read "The Instructions?" It was written by Adam Levin, who went to school with one of my best friends. It's 1,000 pages long and drew a lot of DFW comparisons. I picked up his short story collection that he recently released called "Hot Pink" because it seemed to be getting positive reviews so I'll report back once I get to it. I adore Levin's Instructions and I'm a huge DFW/Pynchon fan, for what any of that is worth. Seems as encyclopedic in scope, culturally, as the major novels of those two others. Excellent, excellent book. Gurion is a tremendously-realized character.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2012 00:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 21:18 |
|
|
mdemone posted:I adore Levin's Instructions and I'm a huge DFW/Pynchon fan, for what any of that is worth. Seems as encyclopedic in scope, culturally, as the major novels of those two others. Excellent, excellent book. Gurion is a tremendously-realized character. How dense of a read is it? I'd love to check it out but I'm already reading IJ for the summer and I want to get to Underworld by Delillo too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2012 00:57
|
|