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You know, while I would definitely disagree that Brutal Doom wrecks the balance of Doom, I have to say that the hitscan enemy boost and the jumping imps definitely don't help anything adn the mod would be better off without them. Holding back and picking enemies off from far away was never fun in Doom. I always had more fun rushing up close, weaving through the enemies and generally being a total spaz. Brutal Doom only makes this more satisfying, with the improved gore, the new melee attacks and whatnot, but then it makes a total 180 turn and punishes you harshly for getting close to/facing the 3 most common enemies in the game. Hell the sergeants and imps probably make up for the brunt of my deaths in Brutal Doom and that just doesn't feel right.
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Jun 3, 2012 13:55
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Dominic White posted:You seem to be in this weird state of denial that any setting below UV exists. That seems to be the entire core of your problem here. Yes, for the longest time, UV was the only difficulty setting that anyone played. That has changed. Now there are actually five difficulty settings! You're in denial about games actually having thought put into them. I refuse to believe anyone who's playing a proper wad with this garbage on is doing anything other than IDDQDing when the going gets a bit tougher. So many fights in DV2 etc are reliant on the BFG and how it works, and the Brutal variant works in a completely different way and applies self-damage. If you can't see how this breaks stuff then you need to actually play some proper wads. Also it seems to drop the FPS down to 10 in Minas Morgul, using a days-old build of GZDoom.
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Jun 3, 2012 15:12
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Dude's right though, Brutal Doom just plain makes a lot of wads, especially older ones, less fun. There's plenty of wads its loving AMAZING FUN with of course, but not all! It's also kind of unavoidable that this would happen. WADs planned entirely around the idea that all your ammo and monsters you place will operate under the regular Doom rules tend to have issues when those are radically changed. Couldn't prevent that unless all Brutal Doom was was a texture and audio mod with no game mechanics changes! In summary: Brutal Doom can be great or it can be horrible. It depends on what you're playing with it.
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Jun 3, 2012 15:18
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Dominic White posted:You seem to be in this weird state of denial that any setting below UV exists. That seems to be the entire core of your problem here. Yes, for the longest time, UV was the only difficulty setting that anyone played. That has changed. Now there are actually five difficulty settings! A wad designed for vanilla monster and item behaviour on UV  with Brutal Doom  on I'm Too Young to Die 
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Jun 3, 2012 15:31
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Tiger Schwert posted:Also it seems to drop the FPS down to 10 in Minas Morgul, using a days-old build of GZDoom. The framerate drops hard even without Brutal Doom. Deus Vult 2 is an anomaly - it does some seriously weird things with the Doom engine that ZDoom-based source-ports just don't like. And of course it'd be lame if you tried running it with Brutal Doom - it's the biggest pile of monster-spam in the history of Doom!
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Jun 3, 2012 15:38
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Install Gentoo posted:Couldn't prevent that unless all Brutal Doom was was a texture and audio mod with no game mechanics changes! Would that be any worse than what its like right now? Sure some things like firing one barrel of the SSG at a time are nice touches, but I don't think I ever heard anyone crying out for imps to be able to jump and people only seem to like it for the gore/weapon effects, truth be told. And there's something for that, it's called Beautiful Doom. Last time I played it there were some slight gameplay changes, but to a smaller extent than Brutal Doom, and there's the added advantage of the developer not wanting to sample gore from real life pictures of shotgun suicides and car crashes. I'd posit that any wad worth playing is made worthless by Brutal Doom. But I guess the same people who love Brutal Doom also love stuff like KDIZD.
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Jun 3, 2012 15:38
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Dominic White posted:The framerate drops hard even without Brutal Doom. Deus Vult 2 is an anomaly - it does some seriously weird things with the Doom engine that ZDoom-based source-ports just don't like. And of course it'd be lame if you tried running it with Brutal Doom - it's the biggest pile of monster-spam in the history of Doom! I've cleared DVII multiple times using various builds of Skulltag, GZDoom etc and have never had framerate problems. The only wad that has ever given me trouble is sunder.wad on one or two maps.
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Jun 3, 2012 15:39
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Dominic White posted:The framerate drops hard even without Brutal Doom. Deus Vult 2 is an anomaly - it does some seriously weird things with the Doom engine that ZDoom-based source-ports just don't like. And of course it'd be lame if you tried running it with Brutal Doom - it's the biggest pile of monster-spam in the history of Doom! No it doesn't. I just ran map12 of dvii on the latest zdoom with and without brutal doom. Without brutal doom it ran flawlessly. With brutal doom it slowed down to 5fps when I approached the yellow keycard barrier. I did this in both opengl mode and software. Also please don't call dvii 'the biggest pile of monster-spam in the history of Doom', it has some of the most intelligently choreographed fights in any doom wad. It ain't nuts.wad.
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Jun 3, 2012 15:43
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You know I do loving hate the 'art' thing many games are trying for but I do feel like there is just a certain...purity? to Vanilla Doom gameplay that the weapon mods just do away with completely, Brutal Doom included. Don't get me wrong though, I have zero objection to playing with weapon mods or the like - authorial intent is one thing, but on the other hand if the player wants to add a dozen mods on top of a perfectly balanced SP wad he's got just as much right to do that as the author does to complain about it.quote:but to a smaller extent than Brutal Doom, and there's the added advantage of the developer not wanting to sample gore from real life pictures of shotgun suicides and car crashes.  I don't want to be too reactionary here but is that true?
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Jun 3, 2012 15:50
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Brutal Doom is too hard? What the gently caress? While, lately, I'm not a huge fan of some of the tweaks, I also can't really complain. It's just downright fun, and even better in multiplayer. It works with most wads, and if it doesn't there is Brutal Doom lite, which is compatible with other weaponmods and wads regular BD isn't.Tiger Schwert posted:I'd posit that any wad worth playing is made worthless by Brutal Doom. But I guess the same people who love Brutal Doom also love stuff like KDIZD.  No accounting for taste. Try playing with a friend or two if things get hard. In fact, I'm hosting a Brutal Doom server right now. What wads do you guys want?
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Jun 3, 2012 16:03
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Jblade posted:You know I do loving hate the 'art' thing many games are trying for but I do feel like there is just a certain...purity? to Vanilla Doom gameplay that the weapon mods just do away with completely, Brutal Doom included. Don't get me wrong though, I have zero objection to playing with weapon mods or the like - authorial intent is one thing, but on the other hand if the player wants to add a dozen mods on top of a perfectly balanced SP wad he's got just as much right to do that as the author does to complain about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGrVjGueSKI quote:Today I decided to take the gore of Brutal Doom to a whole new level!
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Jun 3, 2012 16:04
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Thank God that someone finally had the courage to step up and speak out about Brutal Doom so that others could come forward. I have it on good authority that SgtMark is not only the guy who runs rotten.com, but he is not even a sergeant in the U.S. military! While we're making sweeping passive aggressive insults like calling people KDIZD fans, Predator 2 blows and Danny Glover sucks! But Brutal Doom is awesome. For me. Personally. I mean, it's my opinion. EDIT for actual content: Has anyone tried Psychic with Heretic? I think Heretic's weapons and (to a lesser extent) enemies are suuuper boring, so I was wondering if Psychic helped on that front. We need a Brutal Heretic, more for pacing than gore. ExMortis fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jun 3, 2012 |
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Jun 3, 2012 16:12
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Jblade posted:You know I do loving hate the 'art' thing many games are trying for but I do feel like there is just a certain...purity? to Vanilla Doom gameplay that the weapon mods just do away with completely, Brutal Doom included. Don't get me wrong though, I have zero objection to playing with weapon mods or the like - authorial intent is one thing, but on the other hand if the player wants to add a dozen mods on top of a perfectly balanced SP wad he's got just as much right to do that as the author does to complain about it. This is basically my thought entirely, I really don't care that people are playing with "awesome" gameplay mods, but I'm absolutely opposed to the way it's completely dominated Doom discussion here lately, and the implications people have been making that it's like, a mandantory mod to make modern-day Dooming enjoyable.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:35
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Dominic White posted:You seem to be in this weird state of denial that any setting below UV exists. That seems to be the entire core of your problem here. Yes, for the longest time, UV was the only difficulty setting that anyone played. That has changed. Now there are actually five difficulty settings! This hasn't been true since like, Plutonia.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:48
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Fag Boy Jim posted:This is basically my thought entirely, I really don't care that people are playing with "awesome" gameplay mods, but I'm absolutely opposed to the way it's completely dominated Doom discussion here lately, and the implications people have been making that it's like, a mandantory mod to make modern-day Dooming enjoyable. So discuss something else. It dominates the discussion because people like it, I'm so sorry that you don't and thus feel put out.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:48
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I really disagree with idea of people playing wads like Scythe or AV for the first time with brutal doom enabled. Since brutal doom changes the core behaviour of several weapons and monsters - barons shooting a 3 fireball burst, enhanced hitscanners and the aforementioned BFG changes and so on - it breaks the choreography of many of the fights. Good wad design relies very heavily on balancing what weapons the player has and the monsters you then throw at them. Do megawads justice they deserve and play through them with vanilla doom 2 first.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:50
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Fag Boy Jim posted:This is basically my thought entirely, I really don't care that people are playing with "awesome" gameplay mods, but I'm absolutely opposed to the way it's completely dominated Doom discussion here lately, and the implications people have been making that it's like, a mandantory mod to make modern-day Dooming enjoyable. I don't think it's really a big deal, or the only wad to play. It's just a whole lot of fun and one of the only Doom things being updated on any sort of regular schedule. That's why we only really talk about 2-3 wads here, anymore. I still love to play vanilla, or class wads, or any wads. I just play BD when I want to slaughter the poo poo out of things with friends. God drat, I want Brutal Heretic so bad. Also, I found a Doom64 WAD for Skulltag, and I'm putting it up with Brutal Doom. It's slightly buggy, as in, the new and old skins clash sometimes, but it's also extremely entertaining. If you need the cdoom64.wad file, go here: http://thepit.no-ip.org/wads/ GoonDoom - 71.88.44.16:36108 - Doom64 with Brutal Doom.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:50
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ExMortis posted:EDIT for actual content: Has anyone tried Psychic with Heretic? I think Heretic's weapons and (to a lesser extent) enemies are suuuper boring, so I was wondering if Psychic helped on that front. We need a Brutal Heretic, more for pacing than gore. I hadn't tried Psychic before so I gave it a spin with Heretic. Seems good to me! I really don't like having to run after the coins constantly though, they really should vacuum in when you get close, or just have a much larger collection radius. But otherwise, it's pretty fun and it actually fits pretty well with Heretic. But what the heck is the deal with the Needle Gun? It's supposed to be for underwater? Can you even go underwater in any game on this engine?
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Jun 3, 2012 21:23
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Cowabunga, friends. Just made a quick video of the hot new way to play wads. Let's get brutal, man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ouKUubJpk
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Jun 3, 2012 22:02
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The needlegun does a lot of damage, specifically to low health enemies like gargoyles and golems, but the range on it is pretty poor and the constant reloading only makes it marginally and situationally useful. Upgrading it increases range, but I don't know if it does anything about the reloading.
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Jun 3, 2012 22:07
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Russian Overkill update is out and boy are the weapon changes very much welcome! most of the weapons that had very little use before have been given some serious improvements. In particular: the Stachanov's (charging laser thing) alternate fire lays down a temporary beam turret on any surface it hits against. the Pushkin (rapid fire rocket launcher) no longer has zoom and now lays down a swarm of barrels for it's alt fire. all the characters have upgraded melee capability, so you can play as more than marty and have a grand ol' time. I've yet to try everything though, so there could be much more.
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Jun 3, 2012 22:10
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Tiger Schwert posted:I refuse to believe anyone who's playing a proper wad with this garbage on is doing anything other than IDDQDing when the going gets a bit tougher. So many fights in DV2 etc are reliant on the BFG and how it works, and the Brutal variant works in a completely different way and applies self-damage. If you can't see how this breaks stuff then you need to actually play some proper wads. I've read through everything you've said and can conclude that you sound like a pretty arrogant nerd who confuses opinions with facts. I play "proper" WADs with BD on UV. I get frustrated, but I never cheat. When EPIC 2 plopped me down in front of an arch-vile and 4 Cyberdemons, I figured that poo poo out. I have legitimately beat WADS like Plutonia, Scythe 1, 2, and X (episodes 1 + 2), and EPIC 2. On the aggregate, I enjoyed doing these things, as well. You seem to have this delusion that there is a secret "correct" way to do things, and anybody who deviates from this is a moron who shouldn't be playing Doom in the first place. Surprisingly, people like things that you do not like, and instead of accepting that difference in opinion, you're trying to tell them that they are flat out wrong.
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Jun 3, 2012 22:12
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For what it's worth, I enjoy Brutal Doom a lot more than vanilla Doom, but then, I don't play on Ultraviolent, nor do I play Deus Vult - I've only tried it with vanilla on Hurt Me Plenty. Also, I like the regeneration, but the screen cracks can gently caress right off and the overdone effects can make it hard to tell what's going on at times. Gwyrgyn Blood posted:I hadn't tried Psychic before so I gave it a spin with Heretic. Seems good to me! I really don't like having to run after the coins constantly though, they really should vacuum in when you get close, or just have a much larger collection radius. But otherwise, it's pretty fun and it actually fits pretty well with Heretic. It would be nice if you could buy an upgrade to suck the coins in from further away; I like that it encourages you to get up close and personal, but there are a few places where that's a real problem and I could see it being aggravating a lot more often in Heretic, which I remember having long-range firefights a lot more frequently than Doom. In general I feel that the upgrades in Psychic are pretty lacklustre, though - the mod starts out strong but has no staying power. quote:But what the heck is the deal with the Needle Gun? It's supposed to be for underwater? Can you even go underwater in any game on this engine? The bit about it being an underwater is flavour and has no impact on gameplay (since, as you noted, you can't even go underwater). Upgrade it once and the range increases dramatically, making it a decent weapon between the high accuracy and high damage. It doesn't do anything about the reloading, though.
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Jun 3, 2012 22:23
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Russian Overkill for Heretic? WHAAAAA?!
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Jun 3, 2012 23:27
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I don't like the new zombiemen voices, screen cracks suck, and the shotgunners could do with a nerf! Whoa, BDoom isn't perfect, holy poo poo. Who cares, play what you want. I spend more time playing Skulltag online anyway. BDoom is hilarious with friends.
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Jun 3, 2012 23:39
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I really don't like Brutal Doom, either, so as a result, I just don't use it. Problem solved! Playing all of those superhard wads on hardcore mode is enough challenge for me forever, thanks, and I'm not all that interested in the gameplay "improvements". If other people crave jumping imps and lots of gibs and blood, great for them, go for it!
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Jun 3, 2012 23:41
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:I've read through everything you've said and can conclude that you sound like a pretty arrogant nerd who confuses opinions with facts. Did it occur to you when you were swearing at Scythe map 24's author that you were messing up the wad with Brutal Doom and making it unfair instead of challenging?
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Jun 4, 2012 00:05
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Manboy No 5 posted:Did it occur to you when you were swearing at Scythe map 24's author that you were messing up the wad with Brutal Doom and making it unfair instead of challenging? I felt similar when I played it without Brutal Doom. Did that occur to you?
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Jun 4, 2012 00:10
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I don't really like where this Brutal Doom discussion is going (aka a lot of poo poo slinging), so I have a question: What are some of the best HL1 mods out there (not counting "official" Valve sanctioned mods)? I've already tried Scientist Slaughterhouse (not very good actually), and have Sven Coop installed.
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Jun 4, 2012 00:15
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misterdoo01 posted:I don't really like where this Brutal Doom discussion is going (aka a lot of poo poo slinging), so I have a question: What are some of the best HL1 mods out there (not counting "official" Valve sanctioned mods)? I've already tried Scientist Slaughterhouse (not very good actually), and have Sven Coop installed. USS Darkstar is great. It's not a mod in the sense that it's changing the original game, but it's a completely new singleplayer campaign.
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Jun 4, 2012 00:21
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misterdoo01 posted:I don't really like where this Brutal Doom discussion is going (aka a lot of poo poo slinging), so I have a question: What are some of the best HL1 mods out there (not counting "official" Valve sanctioned mods)? I've already tried Scientist Slaughterhouse (not very good actually), and have Sven Coop installed. Rocket Crowbar, if you can find it, is a fantastically over the top deathmatch mod (the crowbar fires drunken rockets, the pistol shoots antimatter, the hivehand is a freeze ray, the grenades create black holes, etc) that also works in singleplayer (and any SP campaign that works with the base game). Sven Co-Op is generally excellent, although a lot depends on how good the maps you're playing through are - there are a lot of poo poo maps for it. Manke's mods - the They Hunger trilogy and the USS Darkstar campaign - are generally considered some of the best available. If you're looking for more multiplayer stuff, I enjoyed the poo poo out of Natural Selection back in the day, but I have no idea if anyone plays it anymore.
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Jun 4, 2012 00:21
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misterdoo01 posted:I don't really like where this Brutal Doom discussion is going (aka a lot of poo poo slinging), so I have a question: What are some of the best HL1 mods out there (not counting "official" Valve sanctioned mods)? I've already tried Scientist Slaughterhouse (not very good actually), and have Sven Coop installed. Natural Selection, The Specialists, Earth Special Forces, BrainBread, Vampire Slayer, Action HL, RocketCrowbar, Firearms, Half-Life Paintball, Jailbreak, and I'm sure more I can't remember.
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Jun 4, 2012 00:24
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I'm very fond of the Xeno Project.
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Jun 4, 2012 00:54
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misterdoo01 posted:I don't really like where this Brutal Doom discussion is going (aka a lot of poo poo slinging), so I have a question: What are some of the best HL1 mods out there (not counting "official" Valve sanctioned mods)? I've already tried Scientist Slaughterhouse (not very good actually), and have Sven Coop installed. Poke646 is the greatest singleplayer HL mod with the worst name ever, ever.
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Jun 4, 2012 01:09
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:I felt similar when I played it without Brutal Doom. Did that occur to you? It's good you played it UV first. It'd be a pity if a lot of people were playing carefully crafted maps with BD the first time through, as they'd be missing out on the effort put in by the author's hundred playthroughs and adjustments. The sentiment that BD "drags Doom into the year 2011" may lead people to miss out enjoying maps leagues ahead of the originals by id.
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Jun 4, 2012 01:11
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Manboy No 5 posted:It's good you played it UV first. It'd be a pity if a lot of people were playing carefully crafted maps with BD the first time through, as they'd be missing out on the effort put in by the author's hundred playthroughs and adjustments. The sentiment that BD "drags Doom into the year 2011" may lead people to miss out enjoying maps leagues ahead of the originals by id. No, I would agree with that. I say the same thing about, say, Fallout: New Vegas or Skyrim. It's definitely better to play most games and WADs as their creators intended. In that sense, I understand where people criticize Brutal Doom as the "New Doom." I just don't agree with the "Brutal Doom is wrong" sentiment.
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Jun 4, 2012 01:14
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Point of View is absolutely brilliant.
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Jun 4, 2012 01:29
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Manboy No 5 posted:It's good you played it UV first. It'd be a pity if a lot of people were playing carefully crafted maps with BD the first time through, as they'd be missing out on the effort put in by the author's hundred playthroughs and adjustments. The sentiment that BD "drags Doom into the year 2011" may lead people to miss out enjoying maps leagues ahead of the originals by id. It's singleplayer, bub, stop being insufferable about how people play their singleplayer games. If someone wants to use a WAD that changes all the imps into health pickups and makes every gun fire Homestuck characters, that's their decision and it doesn't affect you. If they find it fun, they find it fun. It's not going to detract from your vanilla run.
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Jun 4, 2012 02:12
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Stuntman posted:~^*my pure doom gaming experience*^~ I really don't care if you enjoy Doom II: My Little Pony - Friendship Is Magic edition in your own spare time, whatever makes you have fun is fine. What I have a problem with is the "Brutal Doom is Real Doom" narrative that's been going on the last several months in this thread (seriously, I can find like, one post about Doom for every page of Brutal Doom discussion), and the implication that Brutal Doom is a necessary gameplay mod to make Doom acceptable for modern play, ignoring that it plays badly with most .wads more difficult than Memento Mori.
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Jun 4, 2012 02:32
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On the plus side, it's not as bad as people recommending KDIZD.
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Jun 4, 2012 02:40
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