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Professor Shark posted:Speaking of which, does anyone have any serious theories as to how the series might end? Option 1: Daenerys somehow becomes stunningly competent, returns, and unites Westeros to defeat the encroaching Others. Reason why that won't happen: Daenerys is an idiot who is constantly moving further away, geographically and thematically, from that, and there's so much going that it will make no sense. What role do the Children of the Forest and tree-Bran play in this conflict? Is Jon Snow the rightful heir (which he can't be anyway, unless Lyanna and Rhaegar were secretly married and someone has proof of that and he was already married) Option 2: Martin was planning the whole "LOOK, I AM SOPHISTICATEDLY UNDERMINING FANTASY TROPES" thing from the beginning and the series is meant to end with the Others marching over the whole world and freezing the planet to death. Reason why that won't happen: Martin has become too attached to his characters. I think, originally, he planned to have Dany's plotline and the Westeros stuff come together much quicker, but the Westerosi plots spiraled wildly out of control because he really enjoys writing that stuff (and does it well) while he has this tacked on plotline in the East that's perpetually in a holding pattern because there's nothing for Daenerys to actually do over there, and every step she makes has to be followed by two steps backwards and perpetual movement away from Westeros proper, because Martin made important characters 11 and decided that he'd hinge the plot on the drat dragon growing to adult size. I really have no idea how he's going to end it. Personally, I think he's going to cooperate with the HBO people to put together an ending in television form and string people along with promises of books until he dies. He's basically retired/enjoying going to cons now. I hate to compare him to Robert Jordan, but you can see the difference- Jordan's series quintupled in its planned size but he had everything planned out, to a degree, from the beginning, particularly the ending. Martin has been making it all up as he goes along and he keeps throwing in unnecessary poo poo on top of all of the weird swerves and pointless twists and plot bunnies he's left unresolved. Essentially, he's writing something that equals or exceeds the other big fantasy series of his era in scope, but without the meticulous planning required to draw that to a conclusion. He'd have been better off not including Dany's plotline at all, or just straight up putting the Seven Kingdoms and the Essosian places on the same continent. As it stands, if you look at a map, Westeros/Essos is blatantly Europe with a narrow sea separating it from Asia to explain why the Dothraki aren't attacking the Seven Kingdoms all the time. Tighter plotting could have resolved all of these problems, though. Jorah influencing Daenerys to go the wrong way because he wanted to keep her in a space where he could more easily manipulate her into loving makes sense for the character but was done so at the expense of the greater plot. Now we've hit the point where the plot has become hopelessly snarled because the Seven Kingdoms are still mostly resolved. He has the Others right at the wall, Jon about to rise from the grave to either fulfill all the prophecies or become the new evil wight king (the mentions of Night's King make a nice bit of foreshadowing with that) while the Seven Kingdoms have mostly resolved the war of kings but remain economically and logistically devastated by the war. Dany is supposed to show up now and the major fantasy poo poo that's been in the background come to the foreground, but Martin didn't plot it correctly and she's still half a world a way. Now he has to come up with a way not to have the reverse of the last five books where Daenerys does a bunch of stuff and everyone else fucks around in a holding pattern waiting for her to arrive. I wish he'd decided to write about the Rheagar/Robert's Rebellion era instead, or structured the story so we could see that directly rather than in half-heard tales and coy flashbacks from POV characters who have somehow trained themselves to guard their thoughts in case they ever provide narration from a book. The Robert Rhaegar/Lyanna thing, the Mad King, Littlefinger and Catelyn and the duel with Brandon Stark are all more interesting than the stupid, faux-exotic bullshit in Mereen. Thulsa Doom fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 17:30
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Jon basically has to be the end point for anything that has happened to be at all relevant. He ties into almost every other major story idea through upbringing, blood, or Wall blood brothers. Except for Dorne I guess but who gives a gently caress about Dorne. He's obviously got the Stark and Targ thing, which takes him to Dany, Littlefinger, Braavos, and Bran, he's tied to the Baratheons with his association with Stannis, he's vaguely bros with Tyrion which is a Lannister in, he's got the wildlings, he's in with the maesters through Sam, which actually probably does tie him to Dorne through that backwards name person too. The only thing he needs is a Tyrell connection I guess but they are practical enough that it doesn't really matter with Dany on board. If that happens and the books had come out more quickly to get there I'd call it a pretty elegant tie-up. Instead we are here and who knows if he'll mess up the twist now that everyone is expecting it.
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Jun 4, 2012 17:53
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He saw Tyrion twice, years ago, and he's a member of the family that murdered his father, imprisoned his sisters and as far as he knows married one of them to a psychotic rapist who tortures her and forces her into bestiality. Getting them to be bros would be... odd. Martin made a mistake by pulling critical elements of his overall plot out and wrapping them up in a useless character on the other side of the map, logistically and narratively separate from everyone else. Even his attempts to integrate her into the actual plot amount to pulling people away from it so they can go to her instead of the other way around, and become boring and creepy in the process.
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Jun 4, 2012 18:07
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I spoiled that Dany is utterly useless from the first book onwards to my family, and they were really disappointed. GRRM made a huge mistake bringing her further West without good reason to in the name of "realism."
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Jun 4, 2012 18:10
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Frankly, I always thought the sudden "I AM THEIR MOTHER THESE ARE MY CHILDREN" bullshit followed by two volumes of sheer nothing (like, moreso) was an out of character swerve, forced on her by Martin's part. I'd rather the time spent while the dragons grow to dangerous size be spent traveling to Asshai or something. It's a pity will never actually find out what goes on there or what the "Shadow" is. She was sort of clever and ruthless before that, and he turned her into a really stereotypical teenage girl for some reason.
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Jun 4, 2012 18:13
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I actually think it makes sense that without a pseudo daddy figure like Khal Drogo to anchor her she ends up being much more stupid and teenage, but even so the fact that she "realistically" ends up in Qarth and at the mercy of some rich rear end in a top hat was a detour that needed to be curtailed for her to have any point whatsoever.
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Jun 4, 2012 18:20
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Realism doesn't translate to an interesting story. If the story was realistic, the dragons would just eat her and large swathes of the cast would be dying of dysentery. I don't think realism is Martin's concern so much as flip flopping about who is supposed to be the prophesied savior and what Dany is supposed to actually do. She brought the dragons back, and after that she's superfluous. Martin set himself up with a real problem here- they're the size of cats in the second book, yet we keep hearing about Balerion being big enough to cast his shadow over entire towns. How long does that even take?
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Jun 4, 2012 18:27
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Every time a question like that gets asked I immediately think back to that New Yorker article where GRRM talks about some couple asking him to translate their vows into High Valyrian and he says "I've only written about six words in High Valyrian."
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Jun 4, 2012 18:28
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It's a legitimate question, though. How long will it be before they have a role to play in the story? Also I want giant dragons enshadowing entire armies and raining fire on them because that's cool as poo poo. Besides, dragons being the ultimate holy gently caress commeuppance to the game of thrones and schemers has been a theme throughout the series, hence the stories King Harren and Harrenhall.
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Jun 4, 2012 18:30
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Ambiguatron posted:Realism doesn't translate to an interesting story. If the story was realistic, the dragons would just eat her and large swathes of the cast would be dying of dysentery. I don't think realism is Martin's concern so much as flip flopping about who is supposed to be the prophesied savior and what Dany is supposed to actually do. She brought the dragons back, and after that she's superfluous. Maybe Smurfs exist in the ASOIF world and GRRM is talking about Smurf towns?
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Jun 4, 2012 18:31
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Ambiguatron posted:It's a legitimate question, though. How long will it be before they have a role to play in the story? Also I want giant dragons enshadowing entire armies and raining fire on them because that's cool as poo poo. Oh I agree, I was just illustrating that GRRM clearly doesn't plan that poo poo out at all and if he didn't get a sweet HBO deal it would have utterly crippled his reputation.
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Jun 4, 2012 18:32
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Writing six words in High Valyrian is fine, but he should have thought out stuff like how Dany was supposed to control the loving things. Putting them in a big hole and chaining them in desperation is fine, but that should have been in the third book, and resolved by now. Having this magic dragon horn come along now is blatant and idiotic, and it rests on a retcon. (Dany is obviously going to blow it because she's immune to fire) The horn thing is doubly stupid since a mechanic has already been introduced for characters to bond with and control dangerous beasts. When I re-read a while ago I thought Dany was actually warging into her silver the way Arya apparently did with that cat, but I'm not sure Martin had actually made up warging at that point yet. I've started compiling all of these issues with the plot and pacing into one long mega-rant. I wish I could do a RLM-style Youtube video explaining it all but I lack the technical acumen for that, and so it would turn into a chance to expose my tragic facial hair and embarrassing anime decor to the internet. Thulsa Doom fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 18:34
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I have no idea how he's supposed to unite Dany and the dragons with all the assholes who came to meet her at Mereen, and then wrap up Essos and get her to Westros in one book without it feeling like a horrible rushed mess that doesn't make any sense. And then he has to somehow resolve all the plot threads at once, even though some of them should take years of development to make sense. Arya, Sansa, Bran and Cannibal King Rickon all need a few years to be trained in their various paths, so I don't know how you reintroduce them into the world either. ^^^ I look forward to the doom rant you have brewing.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:00
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Ambiguatron posted:Option 2: Martin was planning the whole "LOOK, I AM SOPHISTICATEDLY UNDERMINING FANTASY TROPES" thing from the beginning and the series is meant to end with the Others marching over the whole world and freezing the planet to death. I actually thought it would be kind of cool, if unlikely, if the Others were to actually push past the Wall and dominate Westoros, causing a continent-wide diaspora into Essos that would vaguely parallel the Targs arrival in the West.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:05
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Goddamn it, Rickon, using the Cannibal! perk gives you negative karma and, if witnessed, is a crime against humanity. Should have just taken Rad Child or Solar Powered.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:06
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Professor Shark posted:I actually thought it would be kind of cool, if unlikely, if the Others were to actually push past the Wall and dominate Westoros, causing a continent-wide diaspora into Essos that would vaguely parallel the Targs arrival in the West. That would resolve the whole how-is-Dany-getting-to-Westeros issue but it would also unceremoniously end about five dozen plotlines,many of which are more interesting than Dany's bullshit. Also, if all of those plots are to be rendered pointless, they've dragged on too long to make whatever point Martin wanted to make.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:08
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I think I must have missed the whole Rickon cannibal thing, was that just cos Shaggydog ate some humans?
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Jun 4, 2012 19:08
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Captain Mediocre posted:I think I must have missed the whole Rickon cannibal thing, was that just cos Shaggydog ate some humans? He's apparently on Skagos? Skagos is an island with shaggy rhinos and people who eat people (who are the happiest people, in the world). Personally, I'm most disappointed that there will be no exposition on the isle of faces and these "green men".
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Jun 4, 2012 19:12
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ASOIAF is a Shaggydog story  Ambiguatron posted:Martin set himself up with a real problem here- they're the size of cats in the second book, yet we keep hearing about Balerion being big enough to cast his shadow over entire towns. How long does that even take? By ADWD they were big enough to eat sheep and by the end one was big enough to ride on and two of them were enough to trash the hell out of the palaces of the wealthiest families.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:16
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Professor Shark posted:Speaking of which, does anyone have any serious theories as to how the series might end? With a heart attack and burned notes.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:16
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neongrey posted:With a heart attack and burned notes. I'm certain he only wants those notes burned because there's about ten thousand pages of Arya/Sansa/Dany gently caress scenes there.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:18
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Ambiguatron posted:Realism doesn't translate to an interesting story. If the story was realistic, the dragons would just eat her and large swathes of the cast would be dying of dysentery. I don't think realism is Martin's concern so much as flip flopping about who is supposed to be the prophesied savior and what Dany is supposed to actually do. She brought the dragons back, and after that she's superfluous. This, actually all the problems people are mentioning, are because Gurm had a time skip planned (I for real believe he did have that planned) to bridge some gaps but then decided to not do that. So you have different characters killing time for various purposes but others really just needed time to pass so Gurm doesn't actually know what to do with them. Not doing the time skip was a really stupid thing to do but now he's written himself into a corner.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:25
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He didn't plan for the time skip, though. He really coudln't have. I can't remember off the top of my head but there was something during that time skip that would have seemed weird if he'd gone through it. I think he ended up jamming things he meant to come after the time skip so you have the dragons growing oddly fast all of a sudden and a thirteen year old superninja who's about to be trained to be a courtier, apparently.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:28
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Yeah, sometimes I think about how different (and better) of a place we'd be in story wise if he'd taken the end of SoS and done a 5 year future time skip. How much would really be that different? He could still be having the iron islanders stories and Dorne and all of that, and Tommen could have had 5 years of kittens.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:30
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Ambiguatron posted:He didn't plan for the time skip, though. He really coudln't have. I can't remember off the top of my head but there was something during that time skip that would have seemed weird if he'd gone through it. According to the interviews I read, he wanted to show all of the immediate aftermath of Tywin's death and the Red Viper's death, and there would have been way too much flashback to do that.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:32
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Sophia posted:Yeah, sometimes I think about how different (and better) of a place we'd be in story wise if he'd taken the end of SoS and done a 5 year future time skip. How much would really be that different? He could still be having the iron islanders stories and Dorne and all of that, and Tommen could have had 5 years of kittens. Dragons grow up, the kids grow up, Arya is a faceless man or just about there, Sansa is now a scheming master, Jon has some cred as lord commander, Rickon exists, Dany has learned how to govern a city and is ready to head for Westeros, oh yeah and Tyrion made his way to her somehow, not really important how. I forget the timeline on King's Landing poo poo but I don't think there's much that needed to happen immediately. 5 year gap solves a lot of problems and only creates some minor issues (eg Brienne wandered around for 5 years, I dunno, who cares about that really?).
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Jun 4, 2012 19:36
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jeffersonlives posted:According to the interviews I read, he wanted to show all of the immediate aftermath of Tywin's death and the Red Viper's death, and there would have been way too much flashback to do that. That's dumb, he's dumb. It would be more consistent with the tone he's set if Tywin's death wasn't particularly noteworthy in the long run and the game continued to be played without him. Fitting for the character, too. IRQ posted:Dragons grow up, the kids grow up, Arya is a faceless man or just about there, Sansa is now a scheming master, Jon has some cred as lord commander, Rickon exists, Dany has learned how to govern a city and is ready to head for Westeros, oh yeah and Tyrion made his way to her somehow, not really important how. I forget the timeline on King's Landing poo poo but I don't think there's much that needed to happen immediately. Arya has been faceless manning the poo poo out of it but has Sansa actually schemed? Unless she was scheming to not do anything and get groped by Baelish, I mean.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:38
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On the other hand, the Cersei bits were really good, and Iunno how they'd have handled the Sand Snakes.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:38
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Sophia posted:Yeah, sometimes I think about how different (and better) of a place we'd be in story wise if he'd taken the end of SoS and done a 5 year future time skip. How much would really be that different? He could still be having the iron islanders stories and Dorne and all of that, and Tommen could have had 5 years of kittens. And characters could have advanced without him having to write any of it, just fix everyone in appropriate ways off-camera, resolve certain knotty plot points with a terse explanation, then use "what really happened in those five years" as a bit of intrigue for the book.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:39
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There's two strains of terrible writing that come up a lot in fantasy fiction- authorial fiat and a dedication to making it "real". One the one hand you get bizarre nonsense, random illogical plot points and cardboard characters lecturing whores on the author's political views whether they fit into a Tolikienesque medieval milieu or not. On the other hand, you get "realism" so intense that it crawls up its own rear end and forgets to obey the basic rules of fiction and accept the conceits of novel writing. People will ignore that characters never take a poo poo the way they'll ignore the "said" tag. The middle path is the best. It's most present in the first book, which is the only volume of the series to have a real story with a beginning, middle, and end that fits into a larger arc yet somewhat stands alone.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:42
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He's really not in a corner at all. The plotlines can always move forward, he just has to ask himself which outcome is believable or probable. Dany's a problem? Let the Dothraki just kill her while Drogon watches. Disappointed Victarion goes home (or manages to get dragons anyway). No more Essos crap.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:46
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Including the Dothraki in the plot was dumb after Drogo died. She should have left them behind completely. Ultimately Jorah was right and having an army of Dothraki and weird eunuchs and untrained fuckslaves just ends up burdening her when the Targaryens actually do have supporters in Westeros, and potentially very powerful ones.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:49
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Ambiguatron posted:Arya has been faceless manning the poo poo out of it but has Sansa actually schemed? Unless she was scheming to not do anything and get groped by Baelish, I mean. She's hanging out with Petyr. Unless her character progression is just going to be more getting groped it stands to reason she's going to learn from him, same as we knew what Arya was doing when she got on that boat at the end of storm.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:49
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I think it's fairly obvious that she's going to get groped but use Petry for her own ends and/or have a "I AM WOMAN HERE ME ROAR" moment. Which is another big problem. GRRM is too afraid to be obvious about his plots now unless we don't necessarily see them coming like the Theon-Reek thread. He almost seems to feel typecast as "the guy who subverts expectations" thanks to Ned, Dany/Jon (initially), Tyrion, Sansa, Jamie, and Robb/Catelyn and is afraid to just let his perfectly good plot threads play themselves out to a conclusion.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:57
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I bet Stannis does the whole choking, yelling, "Where is your god now?" thing every time he finds out nobody refilled the coffee-maker. Or that you didn't make the bed that morning. He just seems like the kind of guy that if you leave a fork out, you're hearing about it.
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Jun 4, 2012 20:34
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Did he choke her out in the books? I don't remember.
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Jun 4, 2012 20:36
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IRQ posted:Did he choke her out in the books? I don't remember. No. Nor did he have sex with her IIRC Also I just want to mention how awkward it is to watch Downton Abbey and Game of Thrones back-to-back
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Jun 4, 2012 21:10
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Birthing the shadows drained Stannis' essence, and Melisandre said to do so again might kill him, and then explicitly offered to let Davos come up out of the dungeon and gently caress her. If she didn't have sex with Stannis she sure wanted Davos to think she did.
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Jun 4, 2012 21:14
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My biggest problem with Dany is that, while she has incredible potential, I have zero interest in what she's actually embroiled in. GRRM is so bad at making me care about Dany that he even managed to make me stop caring about Tyrion while he was on his way to her.
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Jun 4, 2012 21:50
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I care about Meereen more than I care about Dany at this point. Please don't screw up the global economy and further hurt the people you screwed it up for  Really, though, I'm digging GRRM's commitment to making choices have consequences, even in Essos. Dany doesn't get to be the civilized white woman saving the brown people from themselves like she would in almost any other fantasy, she has to deal with the aftermath. whowhatwhere fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 21:58
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