iceaim posted:Do you guys think there would be interest in a indie developed old school game in the same tradition of Doom or Duke where the first episode was released free, and then rest could be bought on gog / steam / iOS for say 5.99 so the project could at least break even? If , for example, you used the Build engine, wouldn't you have to pay the Build engine's owner royalties for using it in a game?
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Jun 9, 2012 16:49
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:If , for example, you used the Build engine, wouldn't you have to pay the Build engine's owner royalties for using it in a game? Depends on the engine license. Build specifically is free for noncommercial use, so for commercial use he'd have to negotiate something with the owner (which might involve royalties, but that's not a given). On the other hand, the Id engines (Doom and Quake 1-3) are GPL'd, as is the Marathon/A1 engine, so he could use those freely as long as he stayed GPL compliant. Of course, he hasn't said what engine he's going to use to begin with.
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Jun 9, 2012 17:39
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ToxicFrog posted:Of course, he hasn't said what engine he's going to use to begin with. I am leaning towards the Doom engine, though Duke is pretty tempting too. The Doom engine is going to be slightly less complicated from a licensing standpoint, but I don't imagine Build being a huge nightmare to negotiate either. If I move forward with using the Doom engine, we'd be using all the bells and whistles of Zdoom rather than shunning them. iceaim fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jun 9, 2012 |
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Jun 9, 2012 20:07
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it's worth noting that if you use Build you're looking at an insane mess of half assembly half C shitfuck that will make your head spin. or god forbid you use Ken Silverman's shader based engine.
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Jun 9, 2012 20:53
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Colon Semicolon posted:it's worth noting that if you use Build you're looking at an insane mess of half assembly half C shitfuck that will make your head spin. or god forbid you use Ken Silverman's shader based engine. Well I am pretty sure we would only have to worry about the Polymer renderer code. I need to check with my lawyer on this, but I am pretty sure the Build license won't apply to our work as long as we only use the code covered under GPL only. The thing is that we want our game to run really nicely even under Intel HD integrated graphics, and Polymer will choke on something like that. I'd need to hire an expert to optimize this. Plagman would be ideal if he is available. Honestly though, that type of problem is not ideal to have with your first indie game. The Doom engine is great and can also make some beautiful levels with the engine updates that purists refuse to use.
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Jun 9, 2012 21:27
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Yeah, Polymer is ambitious and grossly inefficient. If your goal is to get this game to run on pretty much anything, Polymer / Polymost will destroy any hopes of achieving it.
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Jun 9, 2012 21:41
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That is similar to the business model Binding of Issac and Dungeons of Dredmor use and both have been very successful. Free demo + cheap game + cheap expansions is definitely a good way to go.
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Jun 9, 2012 21:48
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I'd love to see how your project goes. An indie old-school FPS using an old engine appeals to me (same as WGRealms 2 Siege Breaker). If you get to start it make a thread and post it in here!
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Jun 9, 2012 22:03
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So, perhaps it slipped under the radar, but Brutal Doom v16 is out now. I highly recommend the Brutalized Doom WAD to go with it. It's the original Doom 1/2 episodes, expanded. New rooms, lots more enemies, more guns, ammo, traps and all that. Familiar for the most part, but with quite a few new surprises. Toughened up to bring it up to 'modern' standards of difficulty, for the most part. Edit: The GZDoom version STILL has that annoying torch sound bug. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jun 9, 2012 |
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Jun 9, 2012 22:22
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ToxicFrog posted:Depends on the engine license. Build specifically is free for noncommercial use, so for commercial use he'd have to negotiate something with the owner (which might involve royalties, but that's not a given). On the other hand, the Id engines (Doom and Quake 1-3) are GPL'd, as is the Marathon/A1 engine, so he could use those freely as long as he stayed GPL compliant. Having made a TC for Marathon/Aleph One, I have one bit of advice: Do not do anything with Aleph One.
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Jun 9, 2012 23:13
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I'm still pretty let down that Brutal Doom never did put its max health value back to 200.
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Jun 9, 2012 23:22
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iceaim posted:Well I am pretty sure we would only have to worry about the Polymer renderer code. I need to check with my lawyer on this, but I am pretty sure the Build license won't apply to our work as long as we only use the code covered under GPL only. This is not a goal compatible with using Polymer. quote:The Doom engine is great and can also make some beautiful levels with the engine updates that purists refuse to use. Given your design goals I'd say yeah, use (gz)Doom. It's relatively clean, it's seen a lot of polishing, it'll run buttery smooth on drat near anything, and you can still get a really nice, stylized look out of it. If you need something a bit more capable you could do the same thing the Retroblazer guys did and adapt one of the Quake engines, and RB shows that there is still a market for fast-paced FPSes with 2.5D aesthetics (and that those aesthetics can be updated for the modern era with detailed sprite, texture and lighting work). I'd play it; it's biggest problem, I think, is going to be getting people to see it as a game in its own right and not as just another Doom TC, but one that they have to pay for.
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Jun 9, 2012 23:39
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Sergeant_Mark_IV posted:At the 0.16 development, I have planned to replace some gib sprites to be made of real pictures of actual dead people. I think this guy needs a holiday.
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Jun 9, 2012 23:55
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Dominic White posted:Brutalized Doom Like the changes/voices, good poo poo Chinese Tony Danza. What's this in the changelog about adding Juggernaut and nerfing Belphegor?? Do these show up in the Brutalized maps? The Brutalized maps seem pretty cool so far. The lighting effect in the E1M2 dark maze bit was nice . Do you have a link to the hi-res textures you're supposed to be using? I generally don't like hi-res but since there's some built in anyway it'd be nice if they at least didn't clash. (EDIT: Built into Brutal Doom now? really? ugh) Speaking of clash, I'm not crazy about the realistic gibs. The eye reminds me of ROTT though which is nice. ExMortis fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jun 10, 2012 |
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Jun 10, 2012 00:26
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ToxicFrog posted:I'd play it; it's biggest problem, I think, is going to be getting people to see it as a game in its own right and not as just another Doom TC, but one that they have to pay for. Indeed. Which is why I am hoping a low enough price point + shareware style demo will be able to attract some of these people. I mean it seemed to have worked with The Binding of Issac and that was essentially a flash game.
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Jun 10, 2012 00:36
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There appears to be some kind of bug in the new Brutal Doom: taking an enemy hostage gets you infinite ammo thanks to the way the rifles/shotguns work. Since they don't deduct ammo until you reload and you can't ever reload while taking a hostage, wha-bam 
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Jun 10, 2012 01:33
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Convex posted:I think this guy needs a holiday. There was a big argument over it on the ZDoom Project forums. It's certainly strange that the resources are directly pulled from actual photos, but it wouldn't be the first time a game did it (Doom 3 and Dead Space come to mind.) Wildweasel and I kept arguing that the biggest issue was how badly the new resources clashed with the older, hand-drawn ones. Of course, nobody grasped this argument, and insisted that people just couldn't handle the bleeding edge concept of tracing over pictures of dead people.
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Jun 10, 2012 02:20
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I think this is the first Brutal Doom version that I don't like for various reasons: -Monster sounds are really weird now. They feel like they don't belong to this game at all. -Aiming down the sights with the shotgun. Wasn't needed but when you use it is slow, buggy (sometimes just sticks to it and refuses to let you hipfire). -Gore is way too much (not because of the violence but because its too much and you waste ammo trying to shoot something behind the body). I didn't bother with the "improved" gore. Seems that I'll just stick to 0.15 because this version is not only putting Danny Glover's voice back in 
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Jun 10, 2012 03:08
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ToxicFrog posted:This is not a goal compatible with using Polymer. Polymer wouldn't even run properly on my 4 GHz quad core with an NVidia GTX 460. It's really a mess right now, and there's only one dude working on it.
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Jun 10, 2012 03:20
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Guillermus posted:I think this is the first Brutal Doom version that I don't like for various reasons: Also the new Zombie sounds in particular are incredibly loving loud. Their chatter drowns out everything else. It's ridiculous.
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Jun 10, 2012 03:22
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RyokoTK posted:Also the new Zombie sounds in particular are incredibly loving loud. Their chatter drowns out everything else. It's ridiculous. If we're talking about Brutal Doom peeves, my biggest one is the new sound for firing both barrels on the Super Shotgun (it's the sound for the AWP from Counter-Strike.) It's a sharp, loud snap that doesn't sound at all appropriate for a shotgun. 
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Jun 10, 2012 03:53
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MasterSlowPoke posted:That is similar to the business model Binding of Issac and Dungeons of Dredmor use and both have been very successful. Free demo + cheap game + cheap expansions is definitely a good way to go. Yeah uh, that's basically just plain old shareware, not a new business model.
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Jun 10, 2012 04:02
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Install Gentoo posted:Yeah uh, that's basically just plain old shareware, not a new business model. It's also not really what DoD or Isaac are doing, which is (as he says) "demo + cheap base game + cheap expansions" - shareware is (at least in games) traditionally "episodic game + first episode is free" (and, at least if it's Apogee making it, is anything but cheap). Which is actually the business model described for his game, it's just not the same one that (say) DoD uses.
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Jun 10, 2012 04:13
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ToxicFrog posted:It's also not really what DoD or Isaac are doing, which is (as he says) "demo + cheap base game + cheap expansions" - shareware is (at least in games) traditionally "episodic game + first episode is free" (and, at least if it's Apogee making it, is anything but cheap). No, that's a completely standard shareware model. It kinda sounds like you forgot how shareware worked back at its peak.
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Jun 10, 2012 04:35
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I can't speak for the recent Brutal Doom updates, but Brutal Doom Lite + Russian Overkill are a perfect synergy.
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Jun 10, 2012 04:39
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Install Gentoo posted:Yeah uh, that's basically just plain old shareware, not a new business model. Didn't mean to imply it was new, but those are examples of current games that work the same way.
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Jun 10, 2012 04:39
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Anybody know where I could find older versions of Brutal Doom? I used to scalp them off of the skulltag rave.fm file host, but ever since somebody decided to rename Skulltag to "Rendordodrum" or whatever dumbass name it now has, I can't find the host.
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Jun 10, 2012 05:03
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:There was a big argument over it on the ZDoom Project forums. It's certainly strange that the resources are directly pulled from actual photos, but it wouldn't be the first time a game did it (Doom 3 and Dead Space come to mind.) Wildweasel and I kept arguing that the biggest issue was how badly the new resources clashed with the older, hand-drawn ones. Of course, nobody grasped this argument, and insisted that people just couldn't handle the bleeding edge concept of tracing over pictures of dead people.
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Jun 10, 2012 05:28
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Install Gentoo posted:No, that's a completely standard shareware model. It kinda sounds like you forgot how shareware worked back at its peak. This is entirely possible, as my main exposure to shareware back in the day was the Apogee and Id games (both following a "3-episode game, episode 1 is free, 2 & 3 are pay" model). What games are you thinking of?
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Jun 10, 2012 05:45
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iceaim posted:I am leaning towards the Doom engine, though Duke is pretty tempting too. The Doom engine is going to be slightly less complicated from a licensing standpoint, but I don't imagine Build being a huge nightmare to negotiate either. Alternatively, you could use one of the open source / free to dev commercial pre-made engines like Unity, which already has a pretty decent workflow for it. I've also heard ok things about Panda3D, which is super-easy/fast to develop for because it's all in python (though obviously there's limitations due to this).
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Jun 10, 2012 06:26
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ToxicFrog posted:This is entirely possible, as my main exposure to shareware back in the day was the Apogee and Id games (both following a "3-episode game, episode 1 is free, 2 & 3 are pay" model). What games are you thinking of? None of them were any good that i remember. There were tons of shitball noname companies putting them out on BBSes and such back in the day though.
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Jun 10, 2012 06:41
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Dominic White posted:So, perhaps it slipped under the radar, but Brutal Doom v16 is out now. I love Brutal Doom but I had to kind of  at this:Brutal Doom Dev posted:Real Gore: Uh... right, buddy. That's just a little... right. No.
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Jun 10, 2012 07:12
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What the gently caress? 
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Jun 10, 2012 07:35
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After seeing v0.16's weird and unecessary sound changes, along with SgtMarkIV's classy as hell gore mod, I think he needs to take a break. He's becoming less "genuinely good modder" and more "mediocre modder that got lucky". The new Doomguys voices are cool tho. closeted republican fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jun 10, 2012 |
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Jun 10, 2012 08:10
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While the gore density is becoming a bit much, the new "voice acting" and bloop tube make up for the minor faults. Now that the lovely gore sprites are a separate module, I'm completely okay with this release.
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Jun 10, 2012 09:13
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A FUCKIN CANARY!! posted:While the gore density is becoming a bit much, the new "voice acting" and bloop tube make up for the minor faults. Now that the lovely gore sprites are a separate module, I'm completely okay with this release. If by "Bloop Tube" you're referring to the grenade launcher, do you feel like the sprite could use some touching up? It feels really blurry to me.
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Jun 10, 2012 09:15
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Wait, there's a grenade launcher now? Where the hell is it?
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Jun 10, 2012 10:03
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Install Gentoo posted:Yeah uh, that's basically just plain old shareware, not a new business model. How is that shareware? Shareware simply meant that instead of selling the games retail, you had a free, limited version which was supposed to be freely distributed among people and which had contact info so you could obtain/ unlock the unlimited version. It has pretty much no place in the internet world.
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Jun 10, 2012 10:35
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I dunno it seems like the internet's the perfect place for shareware. It relies on being distributed among people, and how easy is it to distribute stuff nowadays thanks to the internet.
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Jun 10, 2012 10:43
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Thompsons posted:Wait, there's a grenade launcher now? Where the hell is it? It appears as a random drop from dead Mancubuses in wads that don't normally spawn it, but the chance for it is really low. With a larger blast radius than the rocket launcher, it makes rooms full of low-health monsters very entertaining. So far I'm enjoying the new release, but I won't touch the new gib sprites no matter how high-resolution they turn out to be. So far I'm still a fan of the new doomguy and zombie sounds; they're more-or-less the same voices used by the old Doom 3 Alpha.
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