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Flagrant Abuse posted:I haven't seen Ep2 in a couple years, but don't they say a million more units well on the way, not a million more troops? They don't specify how many a unit is. It could be an individual trooper, or a squad, or a platoon. Yeah, this is right. I also believe that some sourcebook that came out around the time of AOTC also implied the unit =/= trooper idea. Plus there's a lot of anecdotal stuff that Lucasfilm put out around the time of AOTC which would imply more than 3 million clones, like the Republic ordering enough troop ships to carry several billion troopers. However, more than the 3 million number itself is the way in which she handled it. Even before Travis was hired by Lucasfilm, the 3 million clones thing came up in Stover's Shatterpoint. When fans asked him about it, he said something to the effect of, "It's dumb but it comes from Lucasfilm so there's nothing I can do about it." And fans were fine with it. Traviss however did stuff like make "Noble Three Million" the official clone trooper marching song and compared anti-3 million fans to Nazis and the Taliban and talked about how she had fantasies of garotting them. I think the 3 million issue is so associated with her not because she's the only one to do it but because her rear end in a top hat personality exacerbated the issue so much.
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Jun 10, 2012 01:35
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Traviss aside, 3 million clone troopers makes far more sense in the context of the Sith's grand strategy, there's no loving way one planet of cloners made THAT many clones mass-production or not, and the Star Wars universe has never been about big raw numbers--there's never been any sizable fleet/military action over/on any planet in the entirety of the OT that would imply those numbers were needed. Quadrillions? Really? gently caress that. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jun 10, 2012 |
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Jun 10, 2012 02:14
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Not trying to turn this into PYF but does anyone have a unfinished or cut Star Warrs book they'd like to haven seen? The Alien Exodus would've been an amazing trainwreck and the fallout from them being accepted as canon would've been amazing. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alien_Exodus quote:The Alien Exodus storyline is divided into two parts. The main storyline followed a Human slave named Cosmo Hender, and his struggle to free his people from their Varlian overlords. The second storyline consisted of excerpts from The Human Exodus, a chronicle of the origins of the first Humans to find their way to the Star Wars galaxy.[1] I'm unsure if the Dark Horse:Invasion comcis would've been better then the NJO or not. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Horse_invasion_storyline
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Jun 10, 2012 02:20
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For cut/unfinished stories: Well, it's hard to beat a full KOTOR II, and I also would have much preferred KOTOR III to The Old Republic. Similarly, I was really upset when the TOTJ-era novel Mandorla was canceled. Other than that...I believe there were a few X-wing comics stories planned that were never made, including Baron Fel's return to the Empire and service with Thrawn. Would have liked to read those. Nckdictator posted:I'm unsure if the Dark Horse:Invasion comcis would've been better then the NJO or not. I think the invaders being non-humanoid would have been interesting. But at the same time I don't really know how it could have been all that different to the general gist of the NJO, as claimed. I mean, a storyline about an extra-galactic invasion has to have at least some broad plot elements. I'm guessing the Nom Anor infiltration stuff would have been played up. At the same time, I'm really not a huge fan of the current Invasion comic, though that's mainly due to the characterization issues with the author, who didn't work for Dark Horse before then, so it probably wouldn't have been an issue.
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Jun 10, 2012 02:37
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arioch posted:Traviss aside, 3 million clone troopers makes far more sense in the context of the Sith's grand strategy, there's no loving way one planet of cloners made THAT many clones mass-production or not, and the Star Wars universe has never been about big raw numbers--there's never been any sizable fleet/military action over/on any planet in the entirety of the OT that would imply those numbers were needed. What the hell are you talking about? Both the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War are portrayed as galaxy-spanning conflicts. There are millions of stars in a galaxy, and the Stars Wars galaxy is typically portrayed as having a high ratio of planets that are inhabited. The big wars of the 20th century (even the small ones) have involved hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of troops committed to a single front or conflict area. Multiply that over hundreds (or thousands) of planets that are being contested and even if you factor in future militaries being more efficient than the ones of today, it's clear that 3 million is woefully insufficient for the purpose of fighting a galactic war.
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Jun 10, 2012 07:59
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SirPhoebos posted:What the hell are you talking about? Both the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War are portrayed as galaxy-spanning conflicts. There are millions of stars in a galaxy, and the Stars Wars galaxy is typically portrayed as having a high ratio of planets that are inhabited. The big wars of the 20th century (even the small ones) have involved hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of troops committed to a single front or conflict area. Multiply that over hundreds (or thousands) of planets that are being contested and even if you factor in future militaries being more efficient than the ones of today, it's clear that 3 million is woefully insufficient for the purpose of fighting a galactic war. You're forgetting that what is shown Star Wars is a very technologically advanced society. The more advanced the tech, the less you need warm bodies to do your dirty work. The clones were crucial in situations requiring more finesse, but for the most part the wars are fought via orbital bombardments and ships, then the planet would be blockaded from trade or outside influence until the population is under control. Plus, really, it was the ARC's and the Commando's who did all the work. The normal clones were little more than security after a planet had been bombed to hell and back. Esroc fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Jun 10, 2012 |
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Jun 10, 2012 08:06
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EDIT: Fark. Quoted myself by accident.
Esroc fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Jun 10, 2012 |
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Jun 10, 2012 08:15
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Esroc posted:You're forgetting that what is shown Star Wars is a very technologically advanced society. The more advanced the tech, the less you need warm bodies to do your dirty work. The clones were crucial in situations requiring more finesse, but for the most part the wars are fought via orbital bombardments and ships, then the planet would be blockaded from trade or outside influence until the population is under control. Well, let's look into that. There were something like ten thousand Separatist planets, yes? Three million clones doing security means that as each world falls, it gets a security force of three hundred clones. Three hundred guys with blaster rifles. Holding an entire planet. So if one of those worlds has the same population as Earth, that's a little over twenty-three million people that each clone has to "secure." Picture one dude with a rifle "holding" the entire state of Texas, and you get the picture. And that's with NOBODY left doing any actual fighting. Or manning all those capital ships doing the orbital bombardments. Or piloting fighters to defend those capital ships. Or sticking around to do any blockading. If any of those jobs have to be done, the planetside "security" job gets even more hopeless. Sorry, the numbers just don't work out at all with only three million troops. Even three million per separatist world is really pushing it.
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Jun 10, 2012 09:32
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Esroc posted:You're forgetting that what is shown Star Wars is a very technologically advanced society. The more advanced the tech, the less you need warm bodies to do your dirty work. The clones were crucial in situations requiring more finesse, but for the most part the wars are fought via orbital bombardments and ships, then the planet would be blockaded from trade or outside influence until the population is under control. The "finesse" we saw playing out in the movies was "a bunch of Clone Troopers ran towards a bunch of battle droids". I haven't followed the Clone Wars cartoon that closely, but from the movies I got the impression that both sides fought the war by hurling the bodies of their dead soldiers at each other, and for that kind of warfare 3 million soldiers really seems rather low.
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Jun 10, 2012 11:13
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So how many jack asses who 'wrote' for SWOTOR end up writing for Mass Effect 3? I've come to ask you goons who despise Bioware because the renegade conclusion of one of the big story arcs felt like something torn out of Legacy with Mass Effect stuff filled into the blanks.
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Jun 10, 2012 15:57
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Chairman Capone posted:Other than that...I believe there were a few X-wing comics stories planned that were never made, including Baron Fel's return to the Empire and service with Thrawn. Would have liked to read those. As I understand it, Zahn and Stackpole co-wrote a conclusive story arc for the whole X-Wing comic book series some years ago and it would have covered points like that. Apparently their scripts have been completed for more than a decade, but since there doesn't seem to be much interest on the part of the publishers they've just been sitting around unused.
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Jun 10, 2012 16:13
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Metal Loaf posted:As I understand it, Zahn and Stackpole co-wrote a conclusive story arc for the whole X-Wing comic book series some years ago and it would have covered points like that. Apparently their scripts have been completed for more than a decade, but since there doesn't seem to be much interest on the part of the publishers they've just been sitting around unused.
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Jun 10, 2012 16:25
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Yeah the Episode 2 "three million clones" thing or wherever it came from is really dumb and the same basic problem the Harry Potter universe has regarding numbers of wizards.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:00
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Metal Loaf posted:As I understand it, Zahn and Stackpole co-wrote a conclusive story arc for the whole X-Wing comic book series some years ago and it would have covered points like that. Apparently their scripts have been completed for more than a decade, but since there doesn't seem to be much interest on the part of the publishers they've just been sitting around unused. Are you motherfucking kidding me???
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Jun 10, 2012 17:09
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SirPhoebos posted:What the hell are you talking about? Both the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War are portrayed as galaxy-spanning conflicts. There are millions of stars in a galaxy, and the Stars Wars galaxy is typically portrayed as having a high ratio of planets that are inhabited. The big wars of the 20th century (even the small ones) have involved hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of troops committed to a single front or conflict area. Multiply that over hundreds (or thousands) of planets that are being contested and even if you factor in future militaries being more efficient than the ones of today, it's clear that 3 million is woefully insufficient for the purpose of fighting a galactic war. The backbone of the Imperial Fleet is the Imperial Star Destroyer, which carries 50000 total (crew and combat), and we've been quoted a number of 25000 to cover the entire galaxy, so in general there's probably not more than a couple of them per sector. These things are big and bad enough to lay siege to and blockade entire planets each. They can individually slag entire unshielded planets. How many soldiers do they carry? ~10000 troops. Per. 6 lousy squadrons of TIE Fighters. That's 72 flight officers, plus or minus another couple dozen. Yes, the GCW was a galaxy-spanning conflict, but you're trying to extrapolate from a WW1/WW2-style war. That's never been the case for anything shown in the OT.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:11
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Are you motherfucking kidding me??? Star Wars EU: You are not allowed to actually have fun nerds.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:11
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Are you motherfucking kidding me??? They won't even give the go ahead to print up the other two books of Zahn's trilogy in Anniversary Editions even though it would most likely just be like printing money instead.
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Jun 10, 2012 17:12
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SeanBeansShako posted:So how many jack asses who 'wrote' for SWOTOR end up writing for Mass Effect 3? I've come to ask you goons who despise Bioware because the renegade conclusion of one of the big story arcs felt like something torn out of Legacy with Mass Effect stuff filled into the blanks. Pretty sure they had the same writers (as opposed to Dragon Age, which was a different writing team). I know Karpyshyn at least was one of the main writers for both TOR and Mass Effect. Also, I know the TOR art team cut and pasted ship designs from Legacy early on, and only came up with 'original' ship designs (ie, basically just copied from the OT) later on. Why, what was the ending in question?
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Jun 10, 2012 22:46
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Are you motherfucking kidding me??? Well, that's what I've heard. It has a short page on Wookieepedia. Speaking of stories that never quite managed to get published, this may not strictly qualify, but one thing I've always been kind of interested in is what direction Star Wars: Republic might have gone if Quinlan Vos and his supporting cast hadn't basically taken over as the main characters after the Clone Wars stories began. Don't get me wrong, those are great comics, but I would have liked to see more of Ki-Adi-Munid as the main protagonist. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jun 10, 2012 |
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Jun 10, 2012 22:52
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Chairman Capone posted:Pretty sure they had the same writers (as opposed to Dragon Age, which was a different writing team). I know Karpyshyn at least was one of the main writers for both TOR and Mass Effect. Also, I know the TOR art team cut and pasted ship designs from Legacy early on, and only came up with 'original' ship designs (ie, basically just copied from the OT) later on. It was the really dumb endings to the huge story arc between the Geth and Quarrians which boiled down to an equally dumb binary choice of killing off either. I could pull a better ending out of my rear end.
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Jun 10, 2012 23:12
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SeanBeansShako posted:It was the really dumb endings to the huge story arc between the Geth and Quarrians which boiled down to an equally dumb binary choice of killing off either. I could pull a better ending out of my rear end. You know there was a third option right? Like there always is if you have enough Paragon/Renegade.
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Jun 11, 2012 03:43
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Epi Lepi posted:You know there was a third option right? Like there always is if you have enough Paragon/Renegade. I was almost maxed out on Paragon too. Like eighty five loving percent. Link me a post spoilering this option for me in the ME3 spoilers thread. So how about them Star Wars? Still uh...
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Jun 11, 2012 03:52
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SeanBeansShako posted:I was almost maxed out on Paragon too. Like eighty five loving percent. Link me a post spoilering this option for me in the ME3 spoilers thread. Just watch this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oES7oUpoNhc. The description claims that there's a hidden statistic that determines whether it can work out, no idea if that's real.
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Jun 11, 2012 04:24
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Epi Lepi posted:Just watch this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oES7oUpoNhc. The description claims that there's a hidden statistic that determines whether it can work out, no idea if that's real. From what I remember to get that ending you have to have made the correct choices in ME2 in regards to this questline.
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Jun 11, 2012 12:37
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muscles like this? posted:From what I remember to get that ending you have to have made the correct choices in ME2 in regards to this questline. Basically, I was space Jesus but because I was dumb and picked Legion to do something at the end of ME2 and got him killed I messed up. I wonder how that SWG emulator is doing?
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Jun 11, 2012 13:57
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arioch posted:The backbone of the Imperial Fleet is the Imperial Star Destroyer, which carries 50000 total (crew and combat), and we've been quoted a number of 25000 to cover the entire galaxy, so in general there's probably not more than a couple of them per sector. Let's take those numbers for a second. 50,000 crew per ISD and 25,000 ISDs means a total crew of 1,250,000,000. That's 1.25 billion people or 416.67 times the supposed amount of clones (3 mil). And that doesn't take into account planetary security forces, the many people in VSDs, Carrack Cruisers, SSDs, the Death Stars, etc etc etc. 3 million is a stupid number, and interestingly, you've just proven that.
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Jun 12, 2012 13:57
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TheCommodore07 posted:Let's take those numbers for a second. 50,000 crew per ISD and 25,000 ISDs means a total crew of 1,250,000,000. That's 1.25 billion people or 416.67 times the supposed amount of clones (3 mil). Disregarding the fact that I just said "crew", good thing this is ~25 years after the start of a galaxy-wide military build-up and not, you know, at the very beginning or something. Given that the Clone Wars was like 3 years (eh? not sure on the timeframe) you'd have to be deep in the kool-aid to think it was all that all-encompassing rather than something thrown together for war theater. And the GCW took, in the EU, at least 20 years to wrap up, even though the numbers of the forces in conflict was never all that high at any given time. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 15:15
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Basically it boils down to Lucas having the imagination of dried toast, like always.
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Jun 12, 2012 15:43
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TheCommodore07 posted:Let's take those numbers for a second. 50,000 crew per ISD and 25,000 ISDs means a total crew of 1,250,000,000. That's 1.25 billion people or 416.67 times the supposed amount of clones (3 mil). You're assuming that the republics armed forces consisted entirely of clones. Which is something Lucas is probably dumb enough to say, but if he never said such a stupid stupid thing then I think we can assume there were normal people taking up arms for the republic as well. I mean the whole war was stupid as hell anyway. What's the point of two proxy armies fighting each other? They might as well just have a football game to settle it.
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Jun 12, 2012 15:57
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Epi Lepi posted:I mean the whole war was stupid as hell anyway. What's the point of two proxy armies fighting each other? They might as well just have a football game to settle it. It'd end with the battle droids slamming all into each other like the keystone cops and scoring a goal into their own net whilst the clone players all turn and shoot their Jedi manager to death because of the secret code stored in their genetics or whatever.
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Jun 12, 2012 16:04
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Epi Lepi posted:I mean the whole war was stupid as hell anyway. What's the point of two proxy armies fighting each other? They might as well just have a football game to settle it.
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Jun 12, 2012 22:39
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Epi Lepi posted:I mean the whole war was stupid as hell anyway. What's the point of two proxy armies fighting each other? They might as well just have a football game to settle it.
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Jun 13, 2012 09:41
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Doctor Spaceman posted:To convince people of the need for strong leadership, and to weaken any rivals. The fact that Palpatine controlled both armies, each of which would have been able to conquer the galaxy by itself, kind of renders both points moot. I guess the only answer I have ever learned to accept is "because Palpatine likes to be a dick".
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Jun 13, 2012 10:40
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Doctor Spaceman posted:To convince people of the need for strong leadership, and to weaken any rivals. Yes, hence "war theater", not "theater of war".
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Jun 13, 2012 13:20
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Grendels Dad posted:The fact that Palpatine controlled both armies, each of which would have been able to conquer the galaxy by itself, kind of renders both points moot. I always figured the point was so that he could be voted into life ruler or whatever, because "A vote for democracy is a vote for GREVIOUS" or something like that.
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Jun 13, 2012 22:23
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OriginalPseudonym posted:I always figured the point was so that he could be voted into life ruler or whatever, because "A vote for democracy is a vote for GREVIOUS" or something like that. I like to pretend that Palpatine came to power because the Galaxy at large wasn't entirely stupid and assumed a force user was behind most everything and just decided "gently caress it." I mean, seriously. If I lived in a Galaxy that had super-powered monks warring over it every other generation or so I'd finally just have to go: "I'm out. Call me when the Jedi kill your rear end again."
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Jun 13, 2012 23:08
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Esroc posted:I like to pretend that Palpatine came to power because the Galaxy at large wasn't entirely stupid and assumed a force user was behind most everything and just decided "gently caress it." *votes in the most dangerous force user*
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Jun 13, 2012 23:14
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Epi Lepi posted:You're assuming that the republics armed forces consisted entirely of clones. Which is something Lucas is probably dumb enough to say, but if he never said such a stupid stupid thing then I think we can assume there were normal people taking up arms for the republic as well. How are you calling Lucas stupid while simultaneously mixing up audience knowledge with character knowledge? From the Republic perspective, a group of manufacturers were making robots and taking over systems with brute force. Would you conscript your children and send them off to literally be ground up by a machine? What if someone offered the low hanging fruit of sending a clone instead of your own citizens at the very last second? Every Senator in Congress would say- yeah, send the lab rats instead of constituents sons and daughters in a heart beat, just like they all voted in the Patriot Act without reading it.
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Jun 14, 2012 01:28
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TheBigBad posted:How are you calling Lucas stupid while simultaneously mixing up audience knowledge with character knowledge? It's not mixing up audience and character knowledge, they're literally 2 proxy armies. The separatists are using droids instead of their citizens and the Republic is using clones instead of theirs. I feel like there's no real stakes there. I think it's stupid because at the end of the day if you make your rockem sockem robot kick my rockem sockem robots rear end then nothing really changes. I can decide that our rockem robot match didn't matter and sucker punch you. Just like the Republic could wait for the relatively small amount of clones to be ground up and then either start sending in real people or sit around and go "well we've got hundreds of billions of people who could probably be raised into an army, but nah, the clones didn't work, I give up." It makes more sense to me to send everything you've got available, and there will always be volunteers so it's not like the Republic would have had to draft it's citizens. Not that Star Wars ever really made sense.
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Jun 14, 2012 05:59
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The in universe choice was can we fight an army of machines with police wizards.. or... okay okay I hear it.
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Jun 14, 2012 07:22
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