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Krinkle posted:While Horza may not know as much as he thinks he knows. Alternatively, he may have been using the knife missile as a symbol of the machines that run the Culture.
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Jun 5, 2012 00:24
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The knife missile drone was a drone made in body and mind explicitly for the purpose of killing people. Something that shouldn't really exist in the Culture, but something Special Circumstances has anyway. Kind of a physical symbol of how Contact is set apart from the mainstream of the Culture. Even their warships feel shame about their intended purpose, but this particular drone likes killing so much it has to be explicitly told to avoid doing it unless absolutely necessary.
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Jun 5, 2012 00:27
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It's also possible that Banks changed his mind (or further refined) the concept of drones and sentience as he wrote each book... so something said in one book might not entirely make sense in another.
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Jun 5, 2012 00:27
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Not to mention that one took place in wartime thousands of years before the other.
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Jun 5, 2012 00:34
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andrew smash posted:None of that matters, the choice as such happens in the climactic game against the emperor. Gurgeh chose to play as the culture essentially. He could have resisted and lost the game, but there's no way he would have done that because at that point he became cognizant of the fact that the culture's way was simply better. It was spelled out for him on the game board, which was really the only way he would ever really grasp it. I don't want to belabour this, but I am enjoying the discussion. If Gurgeh were to resist at that point though, he would be essentially throwing the game, and thus not being true to himself--this is what makes it seem sort of like coercion to me--it's like once the Minds got him to that point, it was checkmate.
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Jun 5, 2012 02:29
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Wait. Wait. These roman numeral chapters are going backwards? But not the forward, which shuffles in somewhere towards the end (beginning)... Use of Weapons is a bad book to allow your kindle to voice-to-speech to you. I would have noticed his chapters were in roman numerals counting down before chapter four.
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Jun 7, 2012 11:11
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Seldom Posts posted:I don't want to belabour this, but I am enjoying the discussion. If Gurgeh were to resist at that point though, he would be essentially throwing the game, and thus not being true to himself--this is what makes it seem sort of like coercion to me--it's like once the Minds got him to that point, it was checkmate. I always thought that the best part was that the Minds (to keep with the game metaphor), put him into sort of a knight fork: he could either throw the game deliberately -- giving up on the competitive side of his nature in a high-stakes game that mattered -- or demonstrate that a culture that was almost ideally tuned to recognize and celebrate his skill at games -- the craving of which being what got him into the whole mess -- was fundamentally flawed, and take it apart with its own instruments. Either way, he had to do something directly contrary to his ludic blood-lust. As much as the Culture seems like it would be an awesome place to live, I would hate like hell to become a pet project for one of the Minds.
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Jun 10, 2012 02:27
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TouretteDog posted:As much as the Culture seems like it would be an awesome place to live, I would hate like hell to become a pet project for one of the Minds. Edit: Even at the start of the book that Orbital Hub is all flabbergasted that Special Circumstances took such an interest in Gurgeh as well. So a Mind is envying the attention that other Minds paid a human. Unless it's just full of poo poo and in on the plan 
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Jun 10, 2012 17:46
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Less Fat Luke posted:I don't know, I think it might be flattering and life-changing to think that almost omnipotent beings who control everything used *you* as a pawn in a (mostly bloodless) conflict with a new culture. I don't know if mostly bloodless really applies to that situation considering SC didn't wow the backwards primitives with their spiffy guns and ships so much as destabilize the social order of a small interplanetary empire almost certainly causing massive upheavals if not an outright civil war.
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Jun 10, 2012 18:42
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Less Fat Luke posted:I don't know, I think it might be flattering and life-changing to think that almost omnipotent beings who control everything used *you* as a pawn in a (mostly bloodless) conflict with a new culture.
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Jun 11, 2012 00:51
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andrew smash posted:I don't know if mostly bloodless really applies to that situation considering SC didn't wow the backwards primitives with their spiffy guns and ships so much as destabilize the social order of a small interplanetary empire almost certainly causing massive upheavals if not an outright civil war. True, but like the Idiran War and all of their other interventions (Chel being the notable anomaly) it saved more lives than it cost - in the long run.
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Jun 11, 2012 03:19
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MikeJF posted:True, but like the Idiran War and all of their other interventions (Chel being the notable anomaly) it saved more lives than it cost - in the long run. Oh, I know. Got to break a few eggs, etc.
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Jun 11, 2012 03:21
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andrew smash posted:Oh, I know. Got to break a few eggs, etc. My point being that it was as bloodless a handling of the Empire of Azad as possible. The Culture takes the view that inaction is an action in and of itself, and that by not doing what they did, the blood of all those Azad subjects would be on their hands.
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Jun 11, 2012 03:32
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andrew smash posted:Oh, I know. Got to break a few eggs, etc. I understand your point, but characterizing that as "mostly bloodless" is disingenuous regardless.
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Jun 11, 2012 05:03
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MikeJF posted:My point being that it was as bloodless a handling of the Empire of Azad as possible. The Culture takes the view that inaction is an action in and of itself, and that by not doing what they did, the blood of all those Azad subjects would be on their hands. Maybe, but even if they're right this is still an incredibly arrogant and imperialistic attitude to take. I don't really see The Player of Games as being so much about Gurgeh being incompatible with the Culture and having to be corrected, although that's the superficial narrative. It's more that Gurgeh is a reflection of the Culture in microcosm and the Culture first uses this fact as a weapon, and then disarms him when they're done. It's especially elegant because Marwhin-Skel's cover story about being a lethal combat drone who got demilitarized is a lie, but also parallels what what they do to Gurgeh. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jun 11, 2012 |
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Jun 11, 2012 05:08
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I've only read a few Culture novels, so this is probably a dumb question, but is there room in the Culture for a human who needs any of the Culture's crazy high-powered scifi technologies for their hobby/profession without relying on some artificial sentience? If someone is into large-scale landscaping, can they get hand-held field projectors and effectors and just go to town on some remote bit of an Orbital, or if someone wants to jet through the universe and see all the stars or whatever in person, can they get a ship that's reasonably fast(er than light) and just aim it in the right direction, or does everything that's more complicated than board games and mountaineering require a super-intelligent chaperone?
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Jun 11, 2012 05:43
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Vanadium posted:I've only read a few Culture novels, so this is probably a dumb question, but is there room in the Culture for a human who needs any of the Culture's crazy high-powered scifi technologies for their hobby/profession without relying on some artificial sentience? One of the characters in Player of Games actually does orbital terraforming as her career (insofar as the culture has careers) although it's implied she still has to get permission from the authorities/inhabitants of the orbital.
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Jun 11, 2012 05:46
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Yeah, but when it comes down to actually putting her designs for floating volcano islands into practice, does she have to find some AI of some sort with a huge effector strapped to it who wouldn't mind spending a while moving all the rocks around, or does she have access to non-sentient force-field machinery for that kind of thing? I mean it's probably not like the Hub would mind hanging out a bit and shuffling some slaved drones carrying flower pots around, but I didn't get the impression that humans were still equipped to do anything about ren-faire style arts and crafts on their own.
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Jun 11, 2012 05:51
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There's non-sentient privately owned ships in Excession, and I'm pretty sure the Masaq' Hub didn't help anybody with their cable car project.
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Jun 11, 2012 07:36
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I think the cable car project is about as big as you can get without the need for a Mind to get involved in the process of creation, though. The big stuff they won't just hand out to a human. Then again, I doubt they'd just hand them out to a drone-level-mind either. But yeah, I've always felt that there's a bit of a feel of humans as second-or-third-class in the Culture. The idea of a ship is a good example - the Culture philosophically demands that ships be given their own minds, but what that boils down to is that machine minds can jet around the galaxy as they please - them getting control of a ship is a matter of convincing someone they're worth installing in one - but organics always have to hitchhike. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Maybe, but even if they're right this is still an incredibly arrogant and imperialistic attitude to take. Yep. Remember, though, that the Culture doesn't see an abstract concept of a civilisation or culture as having rights. Just a cluster of individuals, each of which they do see as having them, and in the case of Azad almost all were wishing day-to-day for relief. To the Culture, the Azadi government were just a bunch of bullies with all the guns holding the populace prisoner in their rear end in a top hat civilisation. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jun 11, 2012 |
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Jun 11, 2012 07:42
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andrew smash posted:I understand your point, but characterizing that as "mostly bloodless" is disingenuous regardless.
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Jun 11, 2012 12:52
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"Tear yourselves apart and rebuild in a form we find acceptable or we'll do it for you"
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Jun 11, 2012 14:19
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andrew smash posted:"Tear yourselves apart and rebuild in a form we find acceptable or we'll do it for you" "Stop being dicks to each other or we'll make you stop being dicks to each other."
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Jun 11, 2012 14:28
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I know! I'm not even disagreeing. The way mikeJF characterizes the culture's view on rights a few posts up is something I agree with basically entirely. I'm just saying - the culture isn't squeamish enough to pretend they don't get their hands dirty, so why should we?
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Jun 11, 2012 14:33
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I dunno, the Culture citizens who split from the Culture because they didn't want to fight the Idirans probably are that squeamish.
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Jun 11, 2012 14:38
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Pope Guilty posted:"Stop being dicks to each other or we'll make you stop being dicks to each other." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_internationalism IMO, the only reason the books are interesting is beause the existence of the Minds suggests that this could actually work. I am wondering if you and Mr. Smash think this is key for Banks as well, or if the books advocate for it regardless?
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Jun 11, 2012 15:35
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I think an idea Banks is exploring is that if you achieved a society such as the Culture you would be forced to deal with these situations in one way or another. The Culture goes with interventionism. He provides subliming as an alternative that the Culture generally avoids for reasons even they don't fully understand. For some reason they hang around taking care of business even though they don't have to. I think if you debated it at length with the minds about the whys it would always come down to "because we can."
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Jun 11, 2012 16:31
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Lemmi Caution posted:I think an idea Banks is exploring is that if you achieved a society such as the Culture you would be forced to deal with these situations in one way or another. The Culture goes with interventionism. His argument is stronger than that, he outright says that contact is basically the way the rest of the culture justifies its own existence.
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Jun 11, 2012 16:54
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In fact, the Culture feels the argument is so strong they used it as grounds to go to war with the Idirans. quote:I think if you debated it at length with the minds about the whys it would always come down to "because we can." Lasting Damage fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jun 11, 2012 |
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Jun 11, 2012 23:02
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The Culture isn't a liberal state, though.
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Jun 12, 2012 01:50
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Pope Guilty posted:The Culture isn't a liberal state, though. I think you missed the point. It's an analogy.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:45
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Do Minds have names separate from the names of the structure they're running? If a GSV is run by three minds do they each get to make up their own snarky gravitas-lacking names or how does it work? I don't remember seeing it spelled out.
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Jun 13, 2012 00:56
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The first incident committee chair-ship in Excession was a triad, yet it operated and communicated as a single entity. Ulver Seich guesses it was a triad based on it (the ship) saying everything in triplicate, and her drone friend confirms this.
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Jun 13, 2012 01:22
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Man I totally didn't realize that when I read that part. That ought to be the worst mode of existence in the culture (discounting being the AI in some gross nerd's suit).
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Jun 13, 2012 01:42
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pseudorandom name posted:The first incident committee chair-ship in Excession was a triad, yet it operated and communicated as a single entity. Ulver Seich guesses it was a triad based on it (the ship) saying everything in triplicate, and her drone friend confirms this. God, Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The was such a boring old arse. Totally didn't deserve to be in the Interesting Times Gang.
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Jun 13, 2012 14:10
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Barry Foster posted:God, Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The was such a boring old arse. Totally didn't deserve to be in the Interesting Times Gang. Yeah, but that's what makes it perfect. Who'd suspect a Mind like that to be involved in a totally sweet secret club? 
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Jun 13, 2012 16:43
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Barry Foster posted:God, Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The was such a boring old arse. Totally didn't deserve to be in the Interesting Times Gang. I was talking about the ship that was immediately shoved out of the way by the Interesting Times Gang.
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Jun 13, 2012 22:25
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Wisdom Like Silence, I think. It was definitely a Continent-class.
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Jun 14, 2012 00:39
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I want to read Excession right now but it's only available in hardcopy.
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Jun 14, 2012 03:53
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Yeah, but that's what makes it perfect. Who'd suspect a Mind like that to be involved in a totally sweet secret club? I love how the highest tiers of Culture organisation (such as it is) more or less boil down to club house mentality. pseudorandom name posted:I was talking about the ship that was immediately shoved out of the way by the Interesting Times Gang. Yeah, that was the one I was thinking of, I'd just gotten the names mixed up. As awesome as the Mind parts of Excession are, there are a lot of names to keep up with.
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Jun 14, 2012 10:18
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