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DarkCrawler posted:Do you mean Marovia who was eaten by Yoru Sulfur or The Tannerwho was Yoru Sulfur? Marovia was killed by the the University guys' demon callings/freezing thing wasn't he? I know he was impersonated but I don't think a requirement for impersonation was ingestion was it?
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Jun 10, 2012 14:46
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Beastie posted:I finished round 2 of Best Served Cold tonight. Is there a backstory to Shenkt that I am forgetting? I know how he refuses to kneel to Bayaz and that he must undo all that he has done. But was there ever a reason why he left Bayaz? Is it purposefully vague or am I just being forgetful? Just finished BSC myself. Don't think there's any reason given as to why he left Bayaz, though I like the idea of an Eater/magic user as a third faction. Can't be just Bayaz, Khalul and their respective followers after all. On a related note, is Ishri/the East Wind the most powerful named Eater of Khalul's now that Mamum is dead? Was there any reason why she wasn't with the Hundred Words when they confronted Bayaz? That aside, after resding BSC and The Heroes, I really hope that we get something other than killers with a jet black cynical outlook who are out for revenge in Red Country. In the First Law trilogy, we had characters like West, the Dogman and Yulwei who seemed more or less decent, and who balanced out the likes of Ferro and Logen. In BSC/Heroes, it's nothing but Ferro and Logen types all the time, all turned up to 11. And Bayaz really needs to have some of setback. When you think that he and Khalul are using pretty well the entire world as a chessboard in a pissing match to see who's best, they're both colossal arseholes.
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Jun 10, 2012 14:54
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Beastie posted:I finished round 2 of Best Served Cold tonight. Is there a backstory to Shenkt that I am forgetting? I know how he refuses to kneel to Bayaz and that he must undo all that he has done. But was there ever a reason why he left Bayaz? Is it purposefully vague or am I just being forgetful? We don't know what happened between them.
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Jun 10, 2012 16:15
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Hemp Knight posted:In the First Law trilogy, we had characters like West, the Dogman and Yulwei who seemed more or less decent, and who balanced out the likes of Ferro and Logen. In BSC/Heroes, it's nothing but Ferro and Logen types all the time, all turned up to 11. Really? In Cold you've got a bad man trying to be better, who is legitimately tormented by his past and present actions that is until his eye gets burnt out of his loving skull. But that's right when he and Monza pass eachother in the middle of their arcs, and it turns out she's a lot softer than her reputation ever let on. You could probably also count Vitari, as she collects a part of her blood money and then fucks off to go try and be a decent mother to her children. And in Heroes you've got the likes of Calder, Craw, Beck, and Finree. Some cynics, sure, and a smattering of revenge, but Gorst is the only character really out for a fight in that book. I don't think these books are half so dark and bleak as people seem to think they are.
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Jun 11, 2012 07:49
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I know it's very unlikely, but I would love to see a Gorst/Bloody 9 showdown.
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Jun 11, 2012 10:49
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I know it's very unlikely, but I would love to see a Gorst/Bloody 9 showdown. The first law bloody nine would clean the gently caress up, seriously, he's the embodiment of death itself.
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Jun 11, 2012 16:16
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We already sort of got that with a Gorst/Whirrun showdown. It would probably end in a similar fashion. Joe isn't too fond of "this guy fights this guy" and having it end in a meaningful way. I think the specific reason he does this is to showcase that violence is pointless and deaths are abrupt. In fact, I think you missed the point of The Heroes if you think a fight like that would result in anything but more bad things happening for everyone except Bayaz. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jun 11, 2012 |
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Jun 11, 2012 16:19
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Counterpoint: Bloody Nine vs Fenris
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Jun 11, 2012 19:26
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Believe me, the point of the Heroes was not lost one me at all. I just think out of all the non Eaters and Wizards, Gorst would stand the best chance against Logen. His fight with Whirrun seems like the highlight of his life, the only time he truly feels alive, and feels like he is among peers and not misunderstood. He was prepared to tear Felnigg to pieces, and all it took for him to stop was for Felnigg to be nice to him. He just seems so lonely and isolated, only really coming out of shell when he's fighting, a fight with Logen would be the best fight of his life. Besides, it would also be an awesome fight.
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Jun 11, 2012 19:39
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There's just no reason for them to fight, no more than for Stallone and Schwarzenegger to fight. Logen is Jezal's friend and Gorst is Jezal's bodyguard again.
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Jun 11, 2012 19:45
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Evfedu posted:Counterpoint: Bloody Nine vs Fenris That Feared? Reckon he sent a lot o' men back to the mud. Black work, that.
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Jun 11, 2012 21:06
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Gorst may be a natural killer, but Logen is a supernatural killer who shrugs off lethal wounds and blows fire spirits at people and poo poo.
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Jun 11, 2012 21:10
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Your Gay Uncle posted:a fight with Logen would be the best fight of his life. Besides, it would also be an awesome fight. True enough. He does want to die fighting on the field and it would be an awesome fight assuming they actually did fight in The Circle or something where no random jackoff with a spear could shove it through one of them. Too bad there really isn't any reason for them to fight.
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Jun 12, 2012 00:53
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Ok next question, could logen beat ROBOCOP
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Jun 12, 2012 00:55
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Above Our Own posted:Gorst may be a natural killer, but Logen is a supernatural killer who shrugs off lethal wounds and blows fire spirits at people and poo poo. I believe that all the spirits left the world at the end of The Blade Itself.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:51
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Beastie posted:I believe that all the spirits left the world at the end of The Blade Itself. What gave you that impression?
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Jun 12, 2012 04:08
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The first one that Logen meets mentions that he is one of the last. Then when they reach the edge of the world to find the seed I believe the very last of the spirits hands off "the seed" before mentioning that he is the last of the spirits. Maybe I am wrong, hell, I hope I am wrong but I just reread the trilogy.
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Jun 12, 2012 04:23
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I'll bet that Abercrombie's written up a fight between Gorst and Logen, and we'll never see it because he think's it'd be trite. 
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Jun 12, 2012 07:21
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Above Our Own posted:Ok next question, could logen beat ROBOCOP Logen vs. Conan vs. Robocop vs. Gorst vs. Optimus Prime vs. Ferro vs. He-man. I think I got an idea for the next award-winning fighting game.
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Jun 12, 2012 15:51
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Logen vs. Wolverine, AKA Logen vs. Logan.
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Jun 12, 2012 16:02
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DarkCrawler posted:Do you mean Marovia who was eaten by Yoru Sulfur or The Tannerwho was Yoru Sulfur? I'm pretty sure The Tannerwas a legit dude out for some good old equality for the people who got eaten to death by Yoru, who then impersonated him at Jezal's negotiations (which were set up by Bayaz). The "Tanner" had his best revolutionary bud with him who flipped his poo poo when Tanner/Yoru simply agreed to everything Jezal suggested. And then Bayaz had that poor dude inquisitioned. Edit: The guy Melcher was talking about was never actually in the books. He was just mentioned as being a pretty good chancellor dude who kept the different factions balanced. I think his name started with an "F", but I'm not 100% sure on that. Cotton Candidasis fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 17:31
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So what would happen if Bayaz and Khalul do end up getting killed for good? I can't imagine the Union just becoming pals (or at least less belligerent) with the Gurkhish. My guess is that some or at least one of the Magi picks up where they left off and they'll be just as big of bastards as those two. My biggest problem with Abercrombie and Martin is that the "good" guys are either powerless to do anything or they make really dumb decisions like trusting people they shouldn't. If they really want to be more realistic, sometimes the "good" guys should come out on top instead of actively punishing any sort of act of good. E.g. Allies in WW2 weren't exactly all great, but they were better than the Axis and they triumphed albeit at a massive cost of human life. If GRRM or Abercrombie wrote WW2 like it was a book: Hitler conquers the world, Jews are all sentenced to death, anyone who is compassionate is either horrendously murdered or is secretly a serial killer. The only thing that could stop Hitler is a group of insane sociopathic cultists that sacrifice innocent humans to Amon Ra in order to gain their Hitler-stopping powers which ends up summoning a Lovecraftian abomination that destroys most of humanity. All that's left is a few humans who have resorted to cannibalism and then it becomes Cormac McCarthy's The Road. It's like they're erotic fanfic writers except replacing "and then they all hosed" with "and then they all were horrifically killed and the world still sucks."
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Jun 12, 2012 19:42
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It could that writing like that simply has novelty value right now. Though I have to say Abercrombie writes two things better than Martin: fantasy and good guys. Abercrombie's good guys are more realistic psychologically, but it's also about what happens to them. Basically if you're in Martin's book and a good guy, you could just mind your business and accidentally step into a bear trap one day and die of gangrene. If something horrible happens to good guys in Abercrombie's books, it's at least pretty often their own fault in the sense that they overstep some boundaries or do the stuff they know they shouldn't. Like Logen hoping against hope that going back to the North would be a good thing, but over there he just sees that nope, everyone still hates him and it would've been better if he just stayed away.
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Jun 12, 2012 20:22
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I know what you mean but I don't like comparing Martin and Abercrombie in this sense. I don't think it always is about and-then-they-all-died with Abercrombie. What I like most about him is how he treats his characters. Sure it seems like the good guys are always getting the short end of the stick, but he manages to manipulate our perceptions of them so well that even the small things are just such a big deal. Like what he did with Gorst in the end, where he just turned out to be an unreliable fucker who put himself in that situation, rather than the unfortunate woe-is-me victim. Same with Morveer. Abercrombie is just really good at that. When you look at the big picture, it seems like nothing matters with the Magi just doing whatever they want, but that just makes the little things so much more profound. And I find that when I read Martin, everyone just fucks off and dies and it really doesn't affect me at all. When I finished Last Argument of Kings I just put the book down and sat there for a while, digesting it all. Maybe Abercrombie's writing is just right for me, like a sandwich with just enough of a particular sauce I like, but to me it's very powerful.
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Jun 12, 2012 20:24
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I meant it in terms of the overall grand scheme of things, the characters accomplish little change. Murcatto runs Talins as ruthlessly as Orso, Ferro goes even crazier, Jezal changes for the better but is ultimately still powerless, West becomes a badass but ends up dying anyway, Gorst is still miserable and depressed thanks to his own decisions, Craw now fights for Scale after he gets bored of retirement, Dogman loses control of the Northmen that he did have, Shivers is becoming the next Ninefingers, and Bayaz is still an uncaring rear end in a top hat. The two characters that actually gave me any sort of hope from their development were Beck and Calder. Beck learns war isn't as cool as all his friends playing Call of Duty and Battlefield 3 made it out to be and he ends up learning to appreciate what he has, his family, and his life of farming. That was probably the happiest ending any character has received since Glokta in my opinion. True, he's scarred for life, but sometimes that's what it takes for characters to grow. Calder gives up the crown to Scale despite being an ambitious bastard. Not going to lie, that build-up as he took Scale to the pit, I really started to believe he was about to kill his brother to secure the crown. What he actually chose made me pleasantly surprised. It makes me think he won't make the same mistakes Bethod did and he might be able to change the North for the better. True, Bayaz is using him, but maybe he'll force the Northman and the Union to join forces to take down Khalul. Bayaz maybe horrible, but one of these loving bastards has to die and it may as well be Khalul since we've followed Bayaz' side of the story from the beginning.
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Jun 12, 2012 20:57
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Don't forget General Kroy becoming a decent leader who actually cares about his men and being fired for it. And Bayaz is evil but he isn't evil for evil's sake. If he wins against Khalul and something is left in the aftermath there isn't really a reason why he wouldn't leave them alone. Union is mostly a decent place, even if it is an imperialist monarchy. While if Khalul wins the state he has built will still be a fundamentalist slave state led by a bunch of cannibals.
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Jun 12, 2012 21:23
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I don't think Calder spared Scale simply out of love, he is going to prop up Scale as a figurehead and rule through him as the real power behind the throne. Scale was completely changed by his disfigurement and loss, and seems way less bullish and rash. Scale is going to insulate himself from his decisions, so if if things go sideways, it's Scale who has his head bashed in or killed by Bayaz, not himself. All the things he talks about doing before he finds Scale (killing Caul Reachy, framing Glama, etc) happen after Scale is made King, so you can see Calder is really pulling the strings, kind of like Sand and Jezal. I hope Sand comes back, he is my favorite character in the entire series.
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Jun 12, 2012 21:25
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Abercrombie's writing is pretty grim, but other than what hapenned to West (which was a kick in the balls out of nowhere) it always feels like whatever bad stuff happens is a logical consequence of the characters' previous actions so it doesnt feel completely out of the blue.
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Jun 12, 2012 21:42
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DarkCrawler posted:Don't forget General Kroy becoming a decent leader who actually cares about his men and being fired for it. Oh yeah, that Well at least his daughter and her husband came out okay (with a few awful mental scars that will haunt her for eternity.)I never meant to imply Bayaz was evil for the sake of evil. poo poo, Abercrombie hammers it into the readers' head that there's no such thing as true evil. It's just ignorance, apathy, and selfishness that drives Bayaz as it does for half the "evil" characters. And hell, I agree the Union would ultimately be slightly morally superior. Having religious cannibal nutjobs is still worse than corrupt and greedy assholes because the corrupt and greedy assholes are at least flexible in their agendas. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 21:53
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The circle of the world without Bayaz and Khalul would probably find the usual banal reasons of nationalism and religion and imperialism to keep on slaughtering each other. I think it's a mistake to look for a happy ending resolution to the big picture plot in Abercrombie's books (much as grand-scale suffering continued after World War 2 and continues to this day).
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Jun 12, 2012 23:32
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John Charity Spring posted:The circle of the world without Bayaz and Khalul would probably find the usual banal reasons of nationalism and religion and imperialism to keep on slaughtering each other. Making it relatively happy compared to what it is now is what I mean. Basically it's bad right now to the point that it's actually worse than our own real-life world and making it at least at that level is a 'happy' resolution in my opinion. They just need to get rid of the magi and make it slightly less-shittier than it is now. I have no such delusions that everyone will all sit and sing 'kumbaya' at the end.
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Jun 13, 2012 00:46
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I don't see how that would be any happier. It if wasn't Bayaz, it would just be some other person or group calling the shots. At least Bayaz provides stability without the threat of civil war.
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Jun 13, 2012 00:48
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Above Our Own posted:I don't see how that would be any happier. It if wasn't Bayaz, it would just be some other person or group calling the shots. At least Bayaz provides stability without the threat of civil war. Yeah but Bayaz is willing to put the entire Union through a meat grinder just to one-up Khalul and to show who was daddy's favorite after all. If he could do that without a single death he would do it but if it requires millions and millions of dead piled upon each other he doesn't bat an eye. And there would not be Union or the Empire without Bayaz and Khalul - they built the states a thousand years ago. Engineered them. Bayaz was a disciple of both Juvens and Kanedias so he built a country with the Tower of the Maker right at the heart of it so he can best use both of his mentor's disciples. Khalul needed an edge so he broke the Second Law and his country has this crime as the source of his power. Magic and technology VS Magic and cannibalism. Atheism & Religion. North & South. The sole reason they are at war, the sole reason that they EXIST is because their demigod figureheads have a massive grudge against each other. They were created to be countries eternally in conflict with one another, their respective philosophies cannot co-exist. It's a petulant chess match on a world scale. And there was a civil war, don't you remember? From Marovia to Sult to the rebelling peasants to Brock allying with the Gurkhul to be a puppet king...sure, Bayaz cleared it all but his presence does not stop civil wars from happening. Plus you know, civil war isn't that much worse thing then all the wars Bayaz engages the Union in. Greed and territory are still better motivations for war then wanting to be the best, even if you accomplish that by being the last one standing.
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Jun 13, 2012 01:09
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If we're using real life as the basis for comparison here, medieval history is chock full of highborn nobles putting peasants through horribly brutal wars for petty reasons. And they didn't even get the benefit of having the stability and rule of law provided by beings like Bayaz. The Union is a pretty loving nice place to live by historical standards of feudalistic societies. E. Let me put it this way. During those times the majority of humanity lived and died on the whims of dozens of nobles competing for wealth and power. In the Union, they only have one and he's actually quite good at rulership. E2. And that civil war you mentioned was engineered by Bayaz as part of his kingmaking schemes and didn't approach the devastation of an actual civil war. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jun 13, 2012 |
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Jun 13, 2012 04:44
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I don't see how Khalul and Bayaz are any good for the people they control. They will always block any peaceful solution to the problems between the Union and the South. And they being good rulers? Bayaz doesn't rule, he manipulates the Union's policy towards war with the South. And that's about all he does, leaving someone else to mind the shop when he gets bored/has something else to do. That world would still suck without Bayaz and Khalul, but I think they wouldn't have any of these fanatical world wars.
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Jun 13, 2012 07:54
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Relatively good rulers. Relative to what? To any of the hundreds of real life examples of nation builders and leaders from history. Also our history is fraught with world wars and other large scale conflicts without wizards so I don't see them being better off.
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Jun 13, 2012 08:22
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Contra Calculus posted:True, Bayaz is using him, but maybe he'll force the Northman and the Union to join forces to take down Khalul. Bayaz maybe horrible, but one of these loving bastards has to die and it may as well be Khalul since we've followed Bayaz' side of the story from the beginning.
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Jun 13, 2012 12:29
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Above Our Own posted:If we're using real life as the basis for comparison here, medieval history is chock full of highborn nobles putting peasants through horribly brutal wars for petty reasons. And they didn't even get the benefit of having the stability and rule of law provided by beings like Bayaz. There are dozens of nobles competing for wealth and power. That's the scenario given in most of the first, and possibly the second, book(s). Remember the scheming to get the noblemen to support Jezal's claim to the throne? And Lord Brock (I think) later helping the Gurkish because he felt he was cheated out of being king? Peasants are still scorned and oppressed under Bayaz's Union, and they have the consolation of never being able to have a revolution to fix any of it, because big bad Bayaz will just waltz in with his newest figurehead to crush any movement that would reform the government. In our real world, at least there was the option of pitchforks and torches whenever things got too bad; and sometimes it even worked! With immortal dick wizard Bayaz using the Union as a tool against Khalul, there will never be any hope of reform. He even crushed attempted reforms to give the Open Council more power, if I remember. Basically, I'm saying Bayaz's Union is worse than the exact same Union without him, because there is no hope for change while he controls it. And I don't believe Bayaz engineered the Tanner's rebellion. He needed it to end for the Union to fight the Gurkish, and so he ended it in the most advantageous way possible for him.
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Jun 13, 2012 13:29
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tweekinator posted:And I don't believe Bayaz engineered the Tanner's rebellion. He needed it to end for the Union to fight the Gurkish, and so he ended it in the most advantageous way possible for him. I though the whole peasant rebellion was planned by Bayaz purely to give Jezal more prestige? After all, Yoru Sulfer was playing the role of the Tanner, and if Sulfur is involved, you can be sure Bayaz is pulling the strings. Given that Yoru Sulfur acted the part
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Jun 13, 2012 13:39
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Hemp Knight posted:I though the whole peasant rebellion was planned by Bayaz purely to give Jezal more prestige? After all, Yoru Sulfer was playing the role of the Tanner, and if Sulfur is involved, you can be sure Bayaz is pulling the strings. Yoru Sulfur also acted the part of Marovia, but that doesn't mean he was Marovia all along. The rebel general acted betrayed at the negotiations due to the new behavior of the Tanner in capitulating to terms much worse that what they had rejected at previous negotiations. Also, I'm pretty sure Yoru was kicking around Adua for a bit while the rebellion was on-going. The impression I got was just that Yoru ate the Tanner before the peace talks and took his place for them.
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Jun 13, 2012 13:49
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