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A bit of Googling turns up the ZFB91 Internal Security variant of the WZ523.
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Jun 16, 2012 06:48
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I don't know poo poo about modern armor, but by god those things look like BMPs with turrets on 'em. So they're some kind of infantry fighting vehicle, I guess. BMP is a tracked vehicle. Infantry fighting vehicle is a sort of specific term for the types of vehicles like BMP and Bradley, and those are not such. There's two Chinese six-wheeled APCs that I know of: WZ523  ZSL92  Source: http://www.sinodefence.com/army/weapon.asp
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Jun 16, 2012 07:51
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Well, poo poo! Though this seems a neat topic for discussion. What makes an IFV, and for that matter what makes an APC?
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Jun 16, 2012 08:17
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What makes an IFV, and for that matter what makes an APC? Expected use. APCs are "battle taxis", which drive infantry near the battle. They'll dismount and fight on foot while APCs drive away, wait for casualties, run supplies or do some other non-combat related task. APCs are lightly armed, if at all. Typically the hull is protected only against small arms and shrapnel. Some vehicles are wheeled, which make them excellent for paramilitary tasks such as riot control. Tracked vehicles need rubber tracks or they'll easily break pavement. IFVs are expected to support infantrymen after safely delivering the passengers. They are armed with cannons, missiles or other armament. Often the same hull is used for different variants, to ensure fighting capability against all types of threats. Armor ranges from small arms resistant to MBT-level protection. Typically the vehicles are NBC sealed.
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Jun 16, 2012 08:46
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KildarX posted:Are the world wars the first ones to be protested by the populace? I don't remember there being any sort of movement beyond doves in congress in America for the other wars? Ever heard of Aristophanes's "Lysistrata"? It's a comedy, originally performed 411 BC in Athen's, about a popular protest to stop the Peloponnesian War. It's stillpretty funny and is often performed to this day, centered on women on both sides refusing to have sex with their husbands until they knock that poo poo off. The lack of popular support for wars is about as old as war itself. Chroniclers throughout the ages, especially those paid for by regents, have a natural tendency to downplay the subject. America saw a huge popular protest against the military actions in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War. This war had left the US as a colonial ruler of the Philippines, and pretty much directly led to the Philippine-American War. This war was plagued by horrendous war crimes of the US against Philippine civilians, since the Philippine side was largely made up of irregulars and much of the conflict saw a guerilla warfare. Between 1 and 1.4 million Philippinoes died during this conflict, of a population of 9 million. This was one of the first wars that was critically reported in the US. Writes such as Mark Twain opposed the US conducts in the war, and newspapers published cartoons of General Jacob Hurd Smith alleged order to "kill everyone over ten", as he saw every Philippino over that age as a potential enemy. This outrage was fuelled by the letters arriving home from soldiers in the field, describing the massacres of entire villages; men, women and children. So I would point to the Philippine-American War as an example of a war conducted by the US before the world wars that was widely critized by the populace. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 09:53
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MagnumHB posted:A bit of Googling turns up the ZFB91 Internal Security variant of the WZ523. Thanks! I'll...try not to get run over.
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Jun 16, 2012 10:45
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Hob_Gadling posted:Expected use. Expected opposition too. Wheeled South African Ratel 'IFVs' are pretty much only protected against mines and small arms fire when used in the Bush War but those were the main weapons used by the opposition anyway. It's armed with a 20mm autocannon though which is a heavier weapon than the M2/Mk.19 the Israeli Namer carries, which is an APC with tank-like protection.
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Jun 16, 2012 11:59
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lilljonas posted:Ever heard of Aristophanes's "Lysistrata"? It's a comedy, originally performed 411 BC in Athen's, about a popular protest to stop the Peloponnesian War. It's stillpretty funny and is often performed to this day, centered on women on both sides refusing to have sex with their husbands until they knock that poo poo off. Has the US ever apologised for its conduct during this war?
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Jun 16, 2012 18:18
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lilljonas posted:America saw a huge popular protest against the military actions in the Philippines after the Spanish-American War. This war had left the US as a colonial ruler of the Philippines, and pretty much directly led to the Philippine-American War. This war was plagued by horrendous war crimes of the US against Philippine civilians, since the Philippine side was largely made up of irregulars and much of the conflict saw a guerilla warfare. Between 1 and 1.4 million Philippinoes died during this conflict, of a population of 9 million. Just a small correction, but while our nation is called the Philippines, the adjective pertaining to the people is "Filipino" Thank you for that write-up, by the way. It doesn't get a lot of exposure. As for the alleged order of "kill every Filipino male over ten years of age", that came from the history of the Balangiga Massacre/Incident. On Sept 10, 1901, C Company of the 9th US Infantry Regiment was ambushed by Filipino insurgents in the town of Balangiga while the soldiers were supposedly having breakfast. Of the 78 men in the company, as many as 70 became casualties. General Jacob Smith uttered his famous remark as retribution for the ambush, and also had his troops take three church bells from the town as war booty. As of today, the three bells are still in the possession of the United States: One in Camp Red Cloud, South Korea as the current base of 9th Infantry Regiment, and the other two in Cheyenne, Wyoming as the former base of the 11th Infantry Regiment, which relieved the 9th after the ambush. Rabhadh posted:Has the US ever apologised for its conduct during this war?
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Jun 16, 2012 18:33
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Rabhadh posted:Has the US ever apologised for its conduct during this war? No. The official US story was that they fought an illegal insurrection with completely valid tools (concentration camps, torture and summary executions). U.S. Library of Congress waited until 1998 to abandon the term "Philippino Insurrection" in favour of the term "American-Philippine War", but an apology has not been made. There has been Philippino calls for an apology but with no results as far as I know. gradenko_2000 posted:Just a small correction, but while our nation is called the Philippines, the adjective pertaining to the people is "Filipino" Thanks, I used to know very little about the war myself as it is not even mentioned in school books in Sweden. However, I got lots of opportunities to read up on the history when I did some unrelated field research in Manila. It was awesome to walk around in Intramuros and Fort Santiago. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 18:38
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Apologize? I remember the calls not long ago to use the same methods in fighting the Taliban. If it worked then why not use it 100 years later? It's not wrong when the good guys are doing it
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Jun 16, 2012 18:44
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Nenonen posted:Apologize? I remember the calls not long ago to use the same methods in fighting the Taliban. If it worked then why not use it 100 years later? It's not wrong when the good guys are doing it Ironically, the term "water cure" was coined during the Philippine-American War by American soldiers who used it liberally to interrogate and torture locals. You probably know the water cure as "waterboarding". lilljonas fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 19:04
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Rabhadh posted:Has the US ever apologised for its conduct during this war? A better question is, has the United States ever apologized for anything? I think it was in 2008 that Congress finally managed to apologize for enslaving all those Africans, apparently in a fit of reconciliation after the election of Barack Obama. We haven't apologized to the Native Americans for everything we did to them, of course. There are many other such topics which America prefers to forget if possible, and avoid or obfuscate if not.
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Jun 16, 2012 19:41
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EvanSchenck posted:A better question is, has the United States ever apologized for anything? I think it was in 2008 that Congress finally managed to apologize for enslaving all those Africans, apparently in a fit of reconciliation after the election of Barack Obama. We haven't apologized to the Native Americans for everything we did to them, of course. There are many other such topics which America prefers to forget if possible, and avoid or obfuscate if not. Didn't Clinton or someone apologize for interring Japanese-Americans in WWII?
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Jun 16, 2012 19:44
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Has any nation ever quickly apologized for the horrible poo poo nations tend to do? Not being sarcastic, has there ever been an apology that wasn't at least 50 years after the fact at the lowest?
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Jun 16, 2012 19:50
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Mr. Maltose posted:Has any nation ever quickly apologized for the horrible poo poo nations tend to do? Not being sarcastic, has there ever been an apology that wasn't at least 50 years after the fact at the lowest? Germany apologizes for stuff all the time.
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Jun 16, 2012 19:59
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They lost though.
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Jun 16, 2012 20:02
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Mr. Maltose posted:Has any nation ever quickly apologized for the horrible poo poo nations tend to do? Not being sarcastic, has there ever been an apology that wasn't at least 50 years after the fact at the lowest? Yes. Germany is probably the most apologetic nation ever. You can't take a step in Berlin without stumbling over a memorial for victims of Germany in WW2. But I agree that Germany is a bit of a special case, other nations tend to be far less open with their guilt.
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Jun 16, 2012 20:02
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EvanSchenck posted:A better question is, has the United States ever apologized for anything? I think it was in 2008 that Congress finally managed to apologize for enslaving all those Africans, apparently in a fit of reconciliation after the election of Barack Obama. We haven't apologized to the Native Americans for everything we did to them, of course. There are many other such topics which America prefers to forget if possible, and avoid or obfuscate if not. Congress passed the Native American apology resolution as an amendment to the 2010 Defense Appropriations Act. It specifically notes that the apology in no way acknowledges any legal claim levied against the US gov. by a tribe. Also since it was added as an amendment it did not include the preamble as originally intended by the original sponsors (a republican in the senate and a democrat in the house of reps.) which described the long history of the relationship (which doesn't paint the US gov. in a favorable light).
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Jun 16, 2012 20:07
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Mr. Maltose posted:Has any nation ever quickly apologized for the horrible poo poo nations tend to do? Not being sarcastic, has there ever been an apology that wasn't at least 50 years after the fact at the lowest? There have been apologies over single incidents, like "whoops it seems like we dropped a bomb on an orphanage, heh" but usually governments haven't been keen on apologizing for larger events like wars. Either they don't want to admit having been wrong and possibly face compensation claims, or they don't feel responsibility over the actions of a past government, eg. West/East German governments that had no institutional continuity from the Third Reich. West Germany first presented an official apology in 1970 when Brandt knelt at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising memorial. He didn't actually say anything, though. I don't know if there were any earlier apologies?? East Germany first time apologized for the Holocaust, and also for post-war East German policies regarding Jews and Israel, in 1990. At the same time they offered apologies for their participation in the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia. The last apartheid-era South African president de Klerk did apologize for the decades of apartheid two years after Mandela had become president. I don't know if that counts, considering that he wasn't in the government at the time, but I also don't know who would have apologized if not him, otherwise it would have been Mandela apologizing from himself. Willy Brandt's gesture was kind of similar - he was a German socialist who spent the war in Norway and Sweden under a false name - his original name was Herbert Frahm. Likewise the East German communists didn't really have anything to do with Nazi crimes. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 20:14
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lilljonas posted:Ever heard of Aristophanes's "Lysistrata"? It's a comedy, originally performed 411 BC in Athen's, about a popular protest to stop the Peloponnesian War. It's stillpretty funny and is often performed to this day, centered on women on both sides refusing to have sex with their husbands until they knock that poo poo off. Holy poo poo I never realized it was so awful.  Wasn't the Mexican-American War very controversial in the US? Henry David Thoreau went to prison for not paying taxes in protest.
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Jun 16, 2012 20:56
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Mr. Maltose posted:Has any nation ever quickly apologized for the horrible poo poo nations tend to do? Not being sarcastic, has there ever been an apology that wasn't at least 50 years after the fact at the lowest? Yes, many nations have done this. People already pointed out the example of Germany. To that I would add that a great many countries are now experimenting with the concept of truth and reconciliation commissions, which forgo criminal prosecutions so that crimes and atrocities of the past can be discussed, confronted, and hopefully resolved, without leading to a possible resumption of violence. This isn't literally an apology in the sense of a government issuing a bill that says "Sorry, our bad!", but the concept is similar and arguably much more useful and effective than an empty statement of apology (such as the one Ghost of Mussolini refers to above, which is just awful).
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Jun 16, 2012 21:49
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DerLeo posted:Didn't Clinton or someone apologize for interring Japanese-Americans in WWII? Yeah, Bush 41 apologized and awarded $20,000.00 to the surviving internees. quote:THE WHITE HOUSE Speaking of Bush 41 his experience in World War 2 is pretty heroic http://deadpresidents.tumblr.com/post/24962777960/random-dead-presidents-fact-of-the-day-6-12-12 quote:George Herbert Walker Bush was the youngest Naval aviator in World War II. Exactly 70 years ago today — on his 18th birthday — Bush enlisted in the Navy and went to war. He flew 58 combat missions in the Pacific and was one of only four pilots in his squadron to survive the war. He had to land in the ocean at one point due to an aircraft malfunction and barely escaped before his plane exploded. In 1944, his plane was shot down by Japanese anti-aircraft fire, two of his crewman were killed, and Bush had to parachute into the Pacific, smashing into the tail of his aircraft on the way down, slicing his head open and tearing his parachute. It took three hours of fighting off sharks before a submarine rescued him, injured from his head wound and a vicious sting from a Portuguese man-of-war. Not only that, but Bush was nearly captured by Japanese warships that were kept away from him by American warplanes — ships that would have sent him to Japanese authorities at the nearby Bonin Islands who were eventually convicted of war crimes such as torture, decapitation of Allied forces, and cannibalism of American pilots that they had shot down. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 22:20
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KurdtLives posted:Wasn't the Mexican-American War very controversial in the US? Henry David Thoreau went to prison for not paying taxes in protest. A lot of American officers involved were quickly disillusioned about the motives and conduct of that war. They rightfully recognized it as a transparent land-grab against their weaker neighbor. If my memory serves me correctly Grant was particularly bitter about having participated in it.
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Jun 17, 2012 00:40
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EvanSchenck posted:A better question is, has the United States ever apologized for anything? I think it was in 2008 that Congress finally managed to apologize for enslaving all those Africans, apparently in a fit of reconciliation after the election of Barack Obama. We haven't apologized to the Native Americans for everything we did to them, of course. There are many other such topics which America prefers to forget if possible, and avoid or obfuscate if not. George Bush 1 literally said in a speech that he would never apologize for anything America did no matter what the facts say. And Romney wrote a book titled "No Apologies."
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Jun 17, 2012 01:20
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:George Bush 1 literally said in a speech that he would never apologize for anything America did no matter what the facts say. That's pretty funny considerinng that he did apologize for Japannese internment.
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Jun 17, 2012 01:25
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Nckdictator posted:Bush 41 What does 'Bush 41' mean?
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Jun 17, 2012 04:08
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What does 'Bush 41' mean? George H.W. Bush was the 41st president. Thats my guess at least.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:10
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What does 'Bush 41' mean? George HW Bush- the 41st President,the father of the more recent George Bush sorry, I should've been cleaerer.
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Jun 17, 2012 04:51
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Just a friendly reminder that: 1.) History is  as poo poo2.) Buddhism is an incredibly diverse religion. 3.) Warrior monks are awesome.  "Kim Yun-hu" - The Battle of Cheoin Fortress  "Hyujong Commanding Buddhist Volunteer Army for Retaking Pyongyang Castle from the Japanese"
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Jun 17, 2012 09:29
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Nckdictator posted:That's pretty funny considerinng that he did apologize for Japannese internment. I think it's still okay for Americans to apologize for lovely stuff they did to other Americans (Native, African, Japanese, etc.) but dirty foreigners can just take it. Like when they shot down an Iranian civilian airliner.
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Jun 17, 2012 13:50
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Nckdictator posted:Yeah, Bush 41 apologized and awarded $20,000.00 to the surviving internees. George W. Bush, on the other hand, talked about the US occupation of the Philippines as a model for Afghanistan and Iraq in 2003.
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Jun 17, 2012 13:56
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Hob_Gadling posted:Expected use. Is there any purpose for MBTs in modern conflicts now that war has shifted from organized armies with clear fronts to insurgency style attacks against an occupying force? IFVs equiped with explosive ordinance seem to be the way of the future.
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Jun 17, 2012 14:52
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Mans posted:Is there any purpose for MBTs in modern conflicts now that war has shifted from organized armies with clear fronts to insurgency style attacks against an occupying force? IFVs equiped with explosive ordinance seem to be the way of the future. I think the idea is that we've been seeing a lot of asymmetric conflicts, that doesn't mean that they will all be that way. You still need to have an armored force, even if it isn't going to be your most useful tool in every battle.
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Jun 17, 2012 15:09
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MBTs are also what forces conflicts into an asymmetric shape. If we got rid of all the stuff that made fighting a conventional war against Western forces suicidal then we'd end up fighting more conventional wars.
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Jun 17, 2012 15:22
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Mans posted:Is there any purpose for MBTs in modern conflicts now that war has shifted from organized armies with clear fronts to insurgency style attacks against an occupying force? IFVs equiped with explosive ordinance seem to be the way of the future. That is a question that has been asked again and again for the past 50 years. Practise has shown that there is still a need for heavy armour in counter-insurgency operations as they can usually survive hits that could be catastrophic to a lighter armoured IFV and their large bore cannons can lay accurate HE fire like artillery but without any delay. There's also a psychological side to it, having something big and heavy spearhead an advance gives you more confidence while the opponent will poo poo themselves. There are problems with them as well, as their weight limits their mobility and makes them more dependant on availability of fuel and repairs. And yet they are still deemed to be worthy all the trouble, so much so that eg. Canadians first hauled their old Leopard 1 tanks to Afghanistan, then decided to buy the heavier Leopard 2s to replace them while in theater. Airlifting 60 ton MBTs to Afghanistan is not something that you'd do if you thought that the same could be done by a bunch of LAV-IIIs. So the short answer is: who knows? Nobody has given the alternative a serious try because it could end in a disaster.
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Jun 17, 2012 15:33
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Nenonen posted:can lay accurate HE fire like artillery but without any delay. What is the typical delay / accuracy of modern artillery? Does the spotter say "I'm at GPS X and I want rounds 100 yds north of me. Go?"
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Jun 17, 2012 15:40
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Everything you could possibly want to know about the Austrian Military in the early to mid Napoleonic Wars.
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Jun 17, 2012 15:47
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Ron Jeremy posted:What is the typical delay / accuracy of modern artillery? Does the spotter say "I'm at GPS X and I want rounds 100 yds north of me. Go?" On accuracy - dumb shells haven't changed drastically since WW2. Circular error probable describes the radius of a circle inside which 50% of all shells will fall. It depends on the artillery system, condition of the tubes, atmospheric conditions at different altitudes and so on, but let's say that for a heavy artillery piece at a medium range you might get a CEP of 200 meters. A mortar would be more accurate, but you couldn't exactly drop a shell down a specific foxhole with them either. There are nowadays some very expensive GPS guided artillery munitions like Excalibur. Their price is a limiting factor, but they can have a CEP of 5-20 metres, and the misses (the 50% that fall outside the CEP radius) come much closer to target too - close enough for a 155mm HE shell to kill peeps. Delay caused by all sorts of difficult calculations is minimized these days, so it comes down to human delays and the time the shell needs to fly to the target. Unless firing smart munitions, spotting rounds are still needed. So, supposing that it takes three minutes for the shell to reach the target, it would take at least 3 minutes for spotting round, a couple of minutes of scratching heads and adjusting guns and finally 3 minutes for the barrage to fall. If the spotting shell didn't come close enough or if the FO's view to it was obstructed (tall buildings etc.) then more spotting shells might be needed. But modern geopositioning and satellite maps mean that the first round falls somewhere around there, when back in WW2 days maps were shite and nobody knew exactly where they were supposed to be - pre-registered targets were used when possible so that you could skip the spotting phase while in combat. I don't know about the script used by NATO for these things but it should be a bit more nuanced than that - type of mission, type of target, volume of fire etc. In mountainous areas the altitude of the target also becomes a factor.
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Jun 17, 2012 17:54
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lilljonas posted:Ironically, the term "water cure" was coined during the Philippine-American War by American soldiers who used it liberally to interrogate and torture locals. You probably know the water cure as "waterboarding". The other term coined during the Phillipine-American war was " The White Man's Burden ". Nearly everybody thinks this is some awful British imperialist shite, which it is, but the poem was written to advise the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden
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Jun 17, 2012 22:59
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