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Digital Foundry has their take, this was interesting:quote:However, Microsoft's reluctance to name the processor directly, in combination with its obvious hunger to challenge Apple, could mean that NVIDIA's Tegra 3+ revision is on the table, described by general manager Mike Rayfield as a "high performance" part and a "pretty significant bump" over the current hardware. Here's hoping. Edit: Closing comments: quote:Perhaps more important than these issues is that Microsoft needs to create a product that demonstrably works - and does so flawlessly. Windows 8 previews for desktop have revealed a UI that confuses many, and this keynote presentation did the OS no favours: the RT tablet crashed while doing nothing in particular and even Microsoft staff appeared to have genuine issues in making the UI do what they wanted it to do. When attempting to demonstrate NetFlix, the interface looked unresponsive and the video didn't seem to stream at all. Happy_Misanthrope fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 17:13
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If XBMC ended up on WinRT, with decent performance, I could easily make that the only computer I'd own.Happy_Misanthrope posted:I'm aware of that - the poster was saying how difficult it was to type on the iPad, hence this device is perfect for him as he could post from the couch. Makes no sense. Thinking about my own computer usage at home I actually rarely use the keyboard on my laptop for much other than typing into search engines, in fact typing in this reply is the most I've use a keyboard outside of work for weeks.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:21
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I don't understand the love; the keyboard seems to me like something that will just get in the way for tablet-mode users, thin, delicate and always needing to be laid somewhere safe when not mounted against the tablet. It's gonna get left at home by those people. Then for the ones who do want a bit of a keyboard, the fact that the screen and KB can't hold their own angle without a table-like surface to prop the screen on, this thing is only functional in an even smaller subset of the scenarios where a laptop works. Seeing one held aloft on TV this morning I was struck by how delicately, almost baby-like, it was being held; maybe to display the keyboard better but maybe because there's no non-awkward way to hold it aloft when the keyboard's attached.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:37
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The keyboard/cover folds around to the back if you want to just use it as a tablet but still have it attached.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:42
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Oh, that's not so bad then.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:45
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Remy Marathe posted:Oh, that's not so bad then. It's perfect when you're at a cafe or casual restaurant and can put it down on your table without blocking your view and showing off your hardware, keeps it largely out of sight and comfortable to use. That's one - albeit very limited - scenario where the kickstand/keyboard will get in the way.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:54
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:showing off your hardware, Wait...what?
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Jun 19, 2012 17:55
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Which then blocks the kickstand unfortunately. The iPad's smart cover is great in some cases since you can align it in portrait or landscape, as well by rolling it up you can have it a very low angle, but enough to see clearly, as well touching and pointing is far more relaxing when you're hovering above the device instead of extending your arm in front of you. But if you're going to use the kickstand then either the keyboard would be laid out in front or you could lay the keyboard back so that the kickstand is resting on it. I can't think of a situation where the cover would be in the way?
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Jun 19, 2012 17:58
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You heard it here first folks: Surface is a failure because the kickstand prevents you from showing off your consumer electronics in the local Starbucks while you're pretending to write the next great American novel.
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Jun 19, 2012 18:01
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Startacus posted:But if you're going to use the kickstand then either the keyboard would be laid out in front or you could lay the keyboard back so that the kickstand is resting on it. I can't think of a situation where the cover would be in the way? I was going to say this. Also, I'm sure there will be a decent hard angle locking keyboard released for the Surface. There's already a ton for the iPad and Android tablets, so why wouldn't there be one? A plus would be if they make a cover like the touch cover (magnetic attachment, thin) that can be flipped over the back, and then you can dock the Surface with a nice Transformer like keyboard. That'd allow you to have the slick Surface device with a nice portable case, but keep a light keyboard in your work bag for when you need to do some serious field work.
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Jun 19, 2012 18:05
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Thermopyle posted:Wait...what? Using the kickstand, that orientation is not an option at this point from the looks of it. You're either laying it perfectly flat, or at the ~60 degree angle the kickstand seems to orient it at.
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Jun 19, 2012 18:10
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Chasiubao posted:You heard it here first folks: Surface is a failure because the kickstand prevents you from showing off your consumer electronics in the local Starbucks while you're pretending to write the next great American novel. Poorly worded. quote:without blocking your view and showing off your hardware I'm actually saying it's a positive that I have the option to not flash the shiny logo of piece of equipment I'm using, while also keeping it at an angle that's great for browsing/touch and decent enough for quick typing.
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Jun 19, 2012 18:13
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Is there a rule that no other company can make covers/stands/keyboards for the Surface or something?
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Jun 19, 2012 18:27
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Syrinxx posted:Is there a rule that no other company can make covers/stands/keyboards for the Surface or something? No. At least they didn't announce anything.
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Jun 19, 2012 18:31
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Syrinxx posted:Is there a rule that no other company can make covers/stands/keyboards for the Surface or something? Being able to stand it up in portrait mode for word processing would be great for one. Happy_Misanthrope fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 18:35
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whatever7 posted:I don't usually make bold predictions. But I am more and more convinced tablet interface will never work for content creation. Syrinxx posted:Is there a rule that no other company can make covers/stands/keyboards for the Surface or something?
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Jun 19, 2012 18:40
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Meaning I don't want a large ostentatious piece of tech equipment on display at my table in public when I'm just doing casual browsing/emailing while having lunch, the smart cover orientation options of the iPad allow it to be placed on an slight angle which is good enough for typing/browsing but also keeps it low profile and discreet. The kickstand locks when it's out, right? Can you just lay the tablet down on it's back with kickstand out? It'd be upside down, but it will probably support rotating the display, right?
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Jun 19, 2012 18:42
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Jerk McJerkface posted:The kickstand locks when it's out, right? Can you just lay the tablet down on it's back with kickstand out? It'd be upside down, but it will probably support rotating the display, right?
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Jun 19, 2012 18:53
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah that might work actually, good catch. Portrait mode would still be a problem though. The iPad smart cover doesn't really let you prop it up in portrait mode either. You can triangle it and stand it up on the edge, but you could do that with the kickstant on the Surface too.
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Jun 19, 2012 18:55
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Jerk McJerkface posted:The iPad smart cover doesn't really let you prop it up in portrait mode either. You can triangle it and stand it up on the edge, but you could do that with the kickstant on the Surface too. I tried to do this once, and it simply would not stand in portrait. Luckily it tumbled off the coffee table onto a pillow.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:10
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qirex posted:This is already false. There are some kinds of content creation that are better suited given their current interface paradigms to the desktop right now but the fact that you could shoot, edit, title and compose an original soundtrack for a HD video on a smartphone, let alone something as big as a tablet means that it's demonstrably true that you can create content on a touch interface. What is most "content" that people deal with on a day-to-day basis? I'd wager 99% of it is text, pictures, audio and video and there's now literally thousands of tools to work in those formats on touch devices today. I think it's relevant that Apple and Microsoft haven't sued each other since the 90s either. Content creation is not impossible on a tablet device. It's way more difficult if you don't try to tweak your UI at all though. Also, it *is* in fact vaporware until it ships. Just because you can demo it does not mean it's not vaporware yet. However, I personally define vaporware as something that keeps getting delayed in ship. Given that this is one day old, I'm perfectly happy giving them a pass on that term. It is definitely the paper-est of paper launches though.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:25
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Syrinxx posted:Microsoft kept touting build quality, and for good reason: the Windows RT Surface tablet is solid and stunning. Attention to detail is positively amazing, and it's so well designed from every angle that it's just a joy to look at. The keyboard is so thin it seems made from fabric. The lines are gorgeous, and it's a well-balanced device that you'll be able to hold for extended sessions. It is, certainly, easier to hang on to than any of the three generations of iPads to date. The screen is bright and vivid, and the viewing angle is as wide as you could reasonably expect to hold it. Even the kickstand that lets it sit upright, which seemed kind of, well, dumb onstage was a fantastic touch once we saw it in person and attached to the keyboard. I'm sure Gizmodo is qualified to comment on what it's like to hold for extended sessions after a "very brief hands-on" of ninety seconds. Edit: Also, Gizmodo. Toady fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 19:42
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MrBond posted:Content creation is not impossible on a tablet device. It's way more difficult if you don't try to tweak your UI at all though.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:45
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Toady posted:I'm sure Gizmodo is qualified to comment on what it's like to hold for extended sessions after a "very brief hands-on" of ninety seconds.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:50
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Hip Gelatinous Cube posted:As someone who writes for a living, this is looking really loving good. The iPad is decent for writing first drafts, but editing a story is a terribly painful experience. I mean, unless you enjoy having to constantly tap the screen to highlight words. And Pages is such a pile of poo poo, jesus, it shouldn't be called a word processor. I recommend a laptop for prolonged word processing sessions, especially if you're a professional writer. It's obviously the better tool for that task.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:57
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qirex posted:Which is exactly why I think the Surface is not good for content creation, because expecting to use the old UIs for doing these tasks that were designed for a desktop computer will cause all of the compromises you've made to be immediately obvious. It's a base strategic misstep with the "Look it's a tablet! Now it's Windows!" thing that Microsoft is doing right now with Windows 8 overall. It sounds great on paper "and look, all your familiar desktop apps are still there if you need them," but in practice it's just a more aggressive version of previous Windows touch efforts. Yeah. It's a broader WinRT question, but I don't know how important Office RT will be given that it's clearly just "well, here's the same old UI" instead of something actually intended to be on a tablet. If you think content creation == Office, it's still going to play second fiddle in a Windows tablet. If not for Office, I feel like RT wouldn't even have the classic desktop mode. As far as gizmodo goes, I personally word associate "hyperbole" with them more than apple-love.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:58
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Syrinxx posted:I'm well aware that Gizmodo is a bunch of bad "journalists" but I thought it was relevant because they are typically a big Apple circle jerk and don't give MS any slack on anything. Gizmodo? The ones who bought the stolen prototype iPhone and outed the engineer who lost it? Thermopyle posted:I carry a good compact multi tool. It is neither a great knife nor a great pair of pliers. It is a good enough knife and a good enough pair of pliers for me to love the tool because of its compact nature. If your standard is "eh, good enough", then I can see why you'd be satisfied with a multi tool. You're not going to be fixing cars or doing anything serious with it, but as a last resort when you don't have real tools available, or for peace of mind (like a good luck trinket), it might be something to have around. That's not exactly a glowing endorsement of the multi-paradigm premise behind Surface, unless the premise behind Surface is "Not as good as the real thing" or "As a last resort". I don't think it's ridiculous to point out the obvious tradeoff between hybrid and dedicated devices. If Surface isn't a good notebook or a good tablet, there is little reason for people not to get a non-compromised notebook or tablet instead that will provide a better fit for "their needs". Just like how your multi-tool isn't as good as real tools. Hybrid devices serve as marketing bullet points--it sounds cool to tell people that this one thing can be a silver bullet and do everything, unlike that other thing that only focuses on one. In practice, this is rarely successful (if it ever has been), and it's been the trend of the industry to move away from general purpose computing devices toward more focused platforms that are nicer to use because of their reduced scope and lessened complexity. There's a segment of techies resisting this movement and trying to turn tablets into general purpose desktop PCs again. These hybrid devices have been on the market for over a decade now and have not taken off with the public, and the schizophrenic Windows 8 is hardly going to be the game-changer that makes consumers want to turn tablets into laptops and vice versa on a moment's notice. If they need a laptop, they'll get a Windows 7 laptop (or MacBook Air) and just use that for everything. If they want to play Angry Birds, they already have smartphones.
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Jun 19, 2012 20:11
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Toady posted:stuff There is no tool better than a multi tool when one of your requirements is most tools in smallest amount of space. It's not a matter of "eh, good enough", it's a matter of weighting the utility of your wants and getting the most of them within the constraints of budget, space, and reality (meaning, I desire a fullsize keyboard+numpad as well as an 11" form-factor...I can't have both). You're thinking like there's two different sets of features that either a tablet or a laptop fulfills, and there's no other possible set of features that can matter. A tablet can't do everything a notebook can do and a notebook can't do everything a tablet can do, if you can get a device that combines the features that are most important to you while missing features that are less important, that's a win. I have no idea if Surface will fail or not. If it does, it will be because W8 is a schizophrenic mess, or MS marketing sucks, or they implemented the keyboard poorly, or battery life is way too bad. It won't be because the idea of adding a keyboard to a tablet dragged it to its grave.
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Jun 19, 2012 20:35
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Matlock posted:I can't wait to get hands-on with a real one. Really disappointed in the TouchPad as a tablet (even rooted, with Android), and the iPad 2 came up a bit short of my expectations. I highly doubt it. The average user will be locked into the intended environment for which everything is customly programmed to support the architecture. ARM has come a long way lately too.. 
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Jun 19, 2012 20:40
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Jedrick posted:
As someone who has a hacked kindle fire (ICS), tablets fill the void when i want to do some reddit/SA/RSS browsing in bed or outside the home. I wouldn't do that with a notebook computer, it's just too clunky to use and takes too long to bootup/setup. This Surface thing looks real neat and i could just replace my notebook and tablet with one device (edit: and i say this as a sometimes irrational hater of MS). Mister Fister fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 21:30
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Toady posted:If your standard is "eh, good enough", then I can see why you'd be satisfied with a multi tool. You're not going to be fixing cars or doing anything serious with it, but as a last resort when you don't have real tools available, or for peace of mind (like a good luck trinket), it might be something to have around. That's not exactly a glowing endorsement of the multi-paradigm premise behind Surface, unless the premise behind Surface is "Not as good as the real thing" or "As a last resort". That's a bit of a disingenuous argument to suggest that the reason he finds the Surface (or Multitool) promising is that his standards are lower. None of use have used the touch cover yet, but it appears to be a way to provide "good enough" keyboard support to do more than type in a URL or a Tweet, while still not being ideal for marathon Great American Novel sessions (I would argue that the iPad keyboard is not "good enough" for anything more than this, but others may disagree). Given how thin it is anyway, how is it that much of a compromise? The OS, sure, but the hardware? Same goes for the pen, which to me is the most promising feature. A good use case would be travelling to a conference. During the sessions, you'll have your tablet in your lap and use it as you would an iPad, checking emails or twitter, reading the conference schedule. When you return to your hotel room, you setup the Surface on the desk and can write emails to people, IM, etc. with the cover instead of using a clunky glass keyboard. iPads are everywhere at the conferences I've attended, and I suspect most of the people that brought them also packed along a MacBook. I can see college students being interested as well; I recently graduated and would have loved a device like this for classes, especially with the pen. Playing the spec game can indeed lead to horrible compromises and opened the door for Apple to eat everyone's lunch. But I also feel that Apple is so firmly on the side of consumption with the iPad that, in a bizarre twist, Microsoft are now producing computers aimed for creative types, not Apple.
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Jun 19, 2012 21:47
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 Leaked images of Microsoft's solution to the 'won't rest on your lap' situation 
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Jun 19, 2012 21:48
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AppleCobbler posted:
I like this one! http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/microsoft-notebook-cooling-base (in all seriousness, I really don't know why microsoft decided to do that product) Back to topic at hand, nothing wrong with doing a hybrid product, and this one actually looks decent. It's not going to be as bad as the swivel laptops. I think the real hard part will be Microsoft's messaging on intel vs x86. For whatever reason there's a 3 month delay on the x86 one so perhaps that won't be a problem at first. MrBond fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 22:11
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qirex posted:Which is exactly why I think the Surface is not good for content creation, because expecting to use the old UIs for doing these tasks that were designed for a desktop computer will cause all of the compromises you've made to be immediately obvious. I think that most content-creation either typing (needs keyboard; mouse not so important and trackpad is fine) -- or drawing (where stylus is massively better than mouse or touch; e.g. wacom tablets). In both cases the Surface is very compelling. Actually, the other kind of content-creation I'd like to do is markup (code-reviews, proof-reading &c.) where a stylus is again best. I'm excited as heck about a return to stylus.
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Jun 19, 2012 23:30
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ljw1004 posted:I think that most content-creation either typing (needs keyboard; mouse not so important and trackpad is fine) -- or drawing (where stylus is massively better than mouse or touch; e.g. wacom tablets). In both cases the Surface is very compelling. Very few people actually draw on computers, the bulk of design work is not illustration and most designers use mice.
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Jun 19, 2012 23:41
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Jerk McJerkface posted:The kickstand locks when it's out, right? Can you just lay the tablet down on it's back with kickstand out? It'd be upside down, but it will probably support rotating the display, right? And now you can't use the keyboard - aside from the on screen keyboard that is.
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Jun 20, 2012 01:08
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monkeyspank posted:And now you can't use the keyboard - aside from the on screen keyboard that is. The scenario we are describing is using the onscreen keyboard to type.
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Jun 20, 2012 01:18
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Chasiubao posted:You heard it here first folks: Surface is a failure because the kickstand prevents you from showing off your consumer electronics in the local Starbucks while you're pretending to write the next great American novel.
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Jun 20, 2012 06:51
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Nomenklatura posted:C'mon. Isn't that what tablets are for? I only drink fairtrade organic bullshit coffee from my local co-op 
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Jun 20, 2012 07:10
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qirex posted:If you expect a stylus to behave like pen and paper you're going to be massively disappointed. Doesn't the device have an incredibly different type or vastly improved stylus? I thought that was one the major but unfortunately overlooked selling points.
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Jun 20, 2012 08:15
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