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Space Ottomans basically? Do they have any doctrinal quirks? I don't own the Haarlock books.
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Jun 23, 2012 23:23
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They're hardcore fanatics, basically at the level of Krieg. Kriegers and Janissaries both have the "Only One Life to Give" trait which says they have to roll a Willpower+10 test in order to retreat, "or otherwise act in the interests of self-preservation". Grenade gets thrown into the Trench? The Krieger or the Jannisary jumps on top of it without hesitation.
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Jun 23, 2012 23:41
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What do they have to differentiate themselves from Krieg then if they share traits? They seem like they'll get snowed under if they share similarities with something orders of magnitude more popular than them.
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Jun 24, 2012 00:29
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Asehujiko posted:What do they have to differentiate themselves from Krieg then if they share traits? They seem like they'll get snowed under if they share similarities with something orders of magnitude more popular than them. Kriegers are more 'fearless' (for lack of a better word) than Janissaries, and canocically more morbid. Janissaries are also more likeable than the morbid Kriegers, so instead of being a gasmasked walking ablative wound, you're a fiery preacher, regardless of Specialization. moths posted:I tried! I got as far as the loli-Krieg trooper illustration and "My Krieger Girlfriend" and sort-of skimmed the rest unsuccessfully for high-value content. Then read the spinoffs beginning here if you want to skip the 'romantic comedy' bits; the first link was simply to provide context as to why Kriegers were on a civvie planet in the first place (Also Krieger romantic comedy, which is hilarious). Basically, it posits that the Kriegers believe that should they serve the Emperor well, they get to enjoy a peaceful Nirvana- no feasts at the Emperor's side, nor paradises with 72 virgins and whatnot, but an existence spent as a civilian living a normal life on a nice world, until they're called upon again to be reborn in this life and serve the Emperor again- so yeah, militant space Buddhists. I dunno, I think it's a nice take on Kriegers, one that makes them more than a wall of gasmasked targets. Asehujiko posted:Space Ottomans basically? Do they have any doctrinal quirks? I don't own the Haarlock books. Most of their doctrinal stuff is revealed in Only War; DH only shows that they wear death masks in the shape of Drusus's face and that they're extremely religious, to the point of rebelling against your Acolytes should they show signs of Radicalism. CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 00:46
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Asehujiko posted:What do they have to differentiate themselves from Krieg then if they share traits? They seem like they'll get snowed under if they share similarities with something orders of magnitude more popular than them. That is only one of the traits of Kriegers and the Janissaries, their other traits are pretty different from eachother.
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Jun 24, 2012 03:35
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Galaga Galaxian posted:That is only one of the traits of Kriegers and the Janissaries, their other traits are pretty different from eachother. And their background is really different. The Maccabians seem to be like crusading missionaries.
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Jun 24, 2012 03:50
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So Im having a hard time trying to identify what kind of games to actually run with the Only War system that wouldn't be possible in another 40K system. The only thing I can picture is if your running a game based upon the players creating a Regiment and then the campaign is about this Regiment's involvement in some particular conflict (sector wide Crusade perhaps). My worst fear is that they just copy paste the Black Crusade system without correctly adjusting how it shifts the power level so rapidly. That and the frankly messy leveling mechanic (still better than how it started) which they now have chance to clean up a little bit to be something more manageable and less game breaking. Thoughts? kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 06:00
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kingcom posted:So Im having a hard time trying to identify what kind of games to actually run with the Only War system that wouldn't be possible in another 40K system. The only thing I can picture is if your running a game based upon the players creating a Regiment and then the campaign is about this Regiment's involvement in some particular conflict (sector wide Crusade perhaps). After having a discussion about OW with a friend, I can see why they spun this off into a separate game instead of the planned DH sourcebook. It sounds like it's based around Imperial Guard specialists and how their homeworlds govern their generation (similar to the chapter system in Deathwatch). Especially given how many notable units the, I think it became obvious that they couldn't keep it confined to a single book. It does sound like OW is strictly for Imperial Guard campaigns. I do wonder how the Guardsman from DH stacks up to a OW character.
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Jun 24, 2012 07:13
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Young Freud posted:After having a discussion about OW with a friend, I can see why they spun this off into a separate game instead of the planned DH sourcebook. It sounds like it's based around Imperial Guard specialists and how their homeworlds govern their generation (similar to the chapter system in Deathwatch). Especially given how many notable units the, I think it became obvious that they couldn't keep it confined to a single book. It does sound like OW is strictly for Imperial Guard campaigns. I know the origin of it but I feel that most of the book is going to simply reiterate Black Crusade and replace with guardsman starting packages instead. The classes in OW are going to be particularly redundant given theres a techpriest, psyker etc.. but will actually allow a Guardsman type character to fulfill the fellowship role (something virtually impossible without dropping a large amount of xp for the Fel upgrades in DH). The system will beg the question of why any Inquisitior would hire a Guardsman character and not pluck someone straight out of the OW system. You get better gear, a starting specialisation and a far easier method to optimise your character (its not going to be more than 2000xp me thinks) whilethe Guardsman class sits as the weakest of the DH classes already. Their only advantage was their ability to use heavy weapons which loses a lot of punch in a horror noir/investigation game with low player resources. I guess I should rephrase the question to be asking more about whether this can be justifyable for buying this as a full product. I would love for sparks of ideas but Im sitting on the fence as to whether to actually buy this system or not. I'm the GM for my group and currently I was looking for a method to make the Guardsman a more viable option for players but I think OW is going to throw things out of balance in the same way advancing Dark Heresy into Rogue Trader has a set of issues you need to deal with. As a stand alone system Im not sure what I can do with it beyond one-shot adventures. Any excited players able to tell me why they want to play this over the other systems? Why for example do you want to be a guardsman over a Space Marine or if you want the low powered game why OW over Dark Heresy?
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Jun 24, 2012 07:48
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kingcom posted:Any excited players able to tell me why they want to play this over the other systems? Why for example do you want to be a guardsman over a Space Marine or if you want the low powered game why OW over Dark Heresy? Mostly because the changed rules system is far better than what was in Dark Heresy. Also, why the guardsmen are lower powered compared to Black Crusade characters, they're still more competant than Dark Heresy, without having to have a small reference sheet just to keep track of how overpowered you are like in Deathwatch. Don't even try to bring a guardsman from this into Dark Heresy, skills and talents have changed so much that it'd be too much work trying to convert it all. Having looked at the rulebook, I have to say I think it may tie with Rogue Trader for being my favorite 40k rpg, though I won't know for sure until I get to play a game. Actually, it probably has more in common with Rogue Trader than Deathwatch or Dark Heresy, just at the opposite end of the "available resources" spectrum. It's possible to get assigned a mission where you need to sneak in, plant some bombs, and sneak out, but when you head to the munitorium to pick up your assigned bombs and chameleoline cloaks, the clerk tells you that sorry, none are available. However, he does have 144 packs of Lho's and a 200 litre drum filled with concentrated acid lying around. I just love the idea that the most deadly thing you can face isn't Orks, or even Chaos, but supply lines and incompetance of the higher-ups.
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Jun 24, 2012 08:13
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Hey that case of 144 packs of Lhos might as well be a suitcase of gold bars in a warzone if its anything like WWII. 
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Jun 24, 2012 08:15
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Hey that case of 144 packs of Lhos might as well be a suitcase of gold bars in a warzone if its anything like WWII. It probably is, actually, since you can try to trade stuff you have to other guardsmen to get stuff you need. So you might be able to salvage the mission by giving some smokes out in return for "dropped" demolition charges. It does warn you that this is technically illegal, though, so watch out for passing commissars.
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Jun 24, 2012 08:21
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Astus posted:It probably is, actually, since you can try to trade stuff you have to other guardsmen to get stuff you need. So you might be able to salvage the mission by giving some smokes out in return for "dropped" demolition charges. It does warn you that this is technically illegal, though, so watch out for passing commissars. Go to YOUR commissar, tell him any sort of plan at all to deal with the crippling munitions shortage for this mission, preferably something that will get HIM killed, then mention that those clowns in Logistics sent you this case of Lhos... and leave it with him. High grade ordnance is on its way. Or you frag the stuck up, useless son of a bitch the first time you take fire.
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Jun 24, 2012 08:28
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kingcom posted:Any excited players able to tell me why they want to play this over the other systems? Why for example do you want to be a guardsman over a Space Marine or if you want the low powered game why OW over Dark Heresy? First off, the system is more refined for those who want to use Black Crusade's classless system, but for Imperial characters- DH doesn't give that option, and out of all the classes, only the Adept and Sororitas aren't well-represented*. Just let the players buy Background Packages with their starting XP, or choose Homeworlds based on DH. OW games are also more challenging and rewarding than Deathwatch games- heck, might as well ask why play imperial Guard in the tabletop over Spehss Marehns? It's because the sense of accomplishment is so much greater. Also, insofar as I can tell, Guardsmen share skills with Acolytes, so there's no problem having an investigation-focused character. A Guard campaign can also have all the nuances and high combat of a Deathwatch game, while being more forgiving to times when you don't want to fight. The latest Deathwatch adventure is a good example of this- sure, it has a lot of combat, but it also has a great deal of investigative sections that would not fit a Deathwatch game. OW is much more versatile in this regard. Another reason I want to play OW over the other lines is that with a little tweaking, it CAN be adapted for those lines. Simply swap out Logistics for another line's 'money stat', ignore the Mission Requisition rules and you ought to be all right. Regimental officers and special forces might also be hobnobbing with higher-ups, so you've got intrigue options right there. You simply need to frame things in the context of an IG campaign.** The only REAL problems I can see is if you're trying to run a relatively peaceful non-OW game and someone's picked out an Armoured Regiment or such, in which heavy vehicles and transports come standard to a squad, but any GM worth their salt could easily let his players substitute stuff for that. *For the Adept, my idea of a 'fix' is to use the Medic as a baseline. Just thought of something- instead of an archetype, we can adapt a Regimental Doctrine for Sororitas in Only War, or if you're playing a high-powerd, DH-styled game: 1) Limit them to Penitent/Schola homeworlds 2) Swap out Armoured Regiment for Sororitas Crusade 3) Replace the tank with Power Armour, lasguns with bolters and one bolter clip per 2 lasgun charge packs. Restrict their usage of Equipment Doctrines. 4) Forbid usage of Psykers and abhumans, 5) Characteristic Changes: +3 Willpower, -3 Intelligence, starting Skill Scholastic Lore: Ecclesiarchy and starting Talent Pure Faith as per that of Rogue Trader or Blood of Martyrs, your pick. If we're going for BoM though, I'd houserule that the various Aptitudes for Faith Talents would be as follows: pre:Emperor's Sign: Willpower, Defence Emperor's Mercy: Willpower, Social Emperor's Wrath: Willpower, Offence ** Potential plot ideas: 1) If your Squad has a Sergeant, Commissar or Highborn soldier: Your Squad has uncovered evidence that the Governor you're helping is on the take. Now you have to sneak around his mansion while he's at a ball. The social characters mingle among the partygoers (maybe the Ratling goes around telling jokes or fake stories), the sneaky characters clean out the mansion, and fighty characters help stop the guy's mercenaries and such. 2) If your Squad's basic kit includes tanks and other heavy vehicles: You are a Rogue Trader's personal retinue, the best of the best- or maybe you ARE a Rogue Trader and retinue, exploring new worlds and shooting its inhabitants with big guns on big tanks. 3) Your Squad are Kriegers, or contains a Krieger and/or Techpriest: Some vital technology is failing, and your lot are the only goons who are near enough and qualified enough to find a solution. For Kriegers, you could further personalize this by making that technology related to the Vitae Wombs needed for Krieg's clone warriors. 4) The fleet is retreating, the regiments have been withdrawn, the Imperium has been defeated- for now. And 'for now' will be 'ten minutes ago' if your Squad has anything to say about it. Time to raise resistance regiments, assassinate heretic leaders, and fight them as you know you should have done. Your leaders, a bunch of morons who used tanks for reconnaissance and light infantry for massed assaults, lost this world. You're gonna take it back. 4a) The fleet is retreating, the regiments have been withdrawn- and why not? The Imperium has won, and your Squad are a bunch of dudes and dudettes left to enjoy the fruits of their labour. But while your commanders were thorough, they weren't perfect, and the enemy still has enough pluck to fight back. It's time your Squad picked up their lasguns and refueled the Russes for one last dance. Bonus points if the planetary leadership (still morons, but lucky morons this time) don't believe you. 5) Similar to (1), your Squad has been seconded to an Inquisitor for special ops work. You were supposed to be held in reserve while the Inquisitor performed her duties, then moved in on the corrupt bastard(s) she was investigating. Unfortunately, the baddies are more entrenched than you think- but while they are prepared for the Inquisition, you learn that they don't know who's been sent to investigate them. One of YOU must impersonate the Inquisitor while the rest of you pretend to be her retinue, and run interference while she completes the investigation on her own. Be prepared to fight off assassins, Arbites fuming at your presumed muscling into their territory, and poisoned food set out be the nobles fawning at an 'Inquisitor's unwanted arrival. For added complications, the Inquisitor is defeated, and your Squad must pick up the slack! CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 08:35
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Astus posted:Mostly because the changed rules system is far better than what was in Dark Heresy. Also, why the guardsmen are lower powered compared to Black Crusade characters, they're still more competant than Dark Heresy, without having to have a small reference sheet just to keep track of how overpowered you are like in Deathwatch. Don't even try to bring a guardsman from this into Dark Heresy, skills and talents have changed so much that it'd be too much work trying to convert it all. See I disagree to the rules being far better. I found the rule systems were appropriate for the tone set in each game. Dark Heresy was your horror/noir/investigation. Running Black Crusade rules in that game would turn it into a mess as everyone is driven to pick up hunting rifles for the free +30 bonus (+40 realisticly if you consider half range) for using it. The random and dangerous rules for the Psyker were great for that suspense. Theres definitely powers that cause problems and I like to houserule that the GM roles the power dice behind the screen to let perils of the warp play out a little more naturally and bump up the tension. Rogue Trader wasnt about that kind of tone but still wanted to play the idea of you being mere mortals trying to act like gods. The Psychic power system is much safer and more stable (makes complete sense with an Astropath given the soul bounding) and how players combined weapon proficentcy trainings to develop that feeling of money = power by allowing you to use these pieces of equipment. Alternatively Black Crusade is a game all about building up power. This leads to a system that is designed to optimise your character and basiclly stack power up power resulting a system that is VERY easy to create ridiculously broken characters but thats a system I feel can get away with it. Its default rules increase the competency of its characters and leads to anyone who is a traitor being inherently better than a loyalist. Astus posted:Having looked at the rulebook, I have to say I think it may tie with Rogue Trader for being my favorite 40k rpg, though I won't know for sure until I get to play a game. Its been released? Or has testing NDA opened up for us to talk about it? Astus posted:Actually, it probably has more in common with Rogue Trader than Deathwatch or Dark Heresy, just at the opposite end of the "available resources" spectrum. It's possible to get assigned a mission where you need to sneak in, plant some bombs, and sneak out, but when you head to the munitorium to pick up your assigned bombs and chameleoline cloaks, the clerk tells you that sorry, none are available. However, he does have 144 packs of Lho's and a 200 litre drum filled with concentrated acid lying around. I just love the idea that the most deadly thing you can face isn't Orks, or even Chaos, but supply lines and incompetance of the higher-ups. Ah see this is what I'm after. You like playing the economic failure game and your working as much against your own people as your opponents. Thats definitely something my group didnt consider as heavily but I will ask the follow up of how much use can that get you out of a campaign. Can you go a whole premise off of this back and forwards momentum of your supply chain? Thats definitely giving me ideas for a meta game but still need a fair bit of grunt to get things going. kingcom fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 08:58
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kingcom posted:See I disagree to the rules being far better. I found the rule systems were appropriate for the tone set in each game. Dark Heresy was your horror/noir/investigation. Running Black Crusade rules in that game would turn it into a mess as everyone is driven to pick up hunting rifles for the free +30 bonus (+40 realisticly if you consider half range) for using it. For me, the whole 'class system' thing has never really sat well with me. Don't get me wrong, I like DH, but sometimes I feel it's only my love for the 40K 'verse that keeps me in. Also, you do know the DH system is just as easy to powergame? Nobleborn characters make a joke of the income system (seriously, who thought THAT was a good idea?), while the +BS bonuses were present in DH as well, especially if you used the errata. kingcom posted:Its been released? Or has testing NDA opened up for us to talk about it? Beta's out on DriveThru for $20.
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Jun 24, 2012 09:05
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CommissarMega posted:For me, the whole 'class system' thing has never really sat well with me. Don't get me wrong, I like DH, but sometimes I feel it's only my love for the 40K 'verse that keeps me in. Ah a beta didnt know about that, thanks for the info. See Im the opposite, the Imperium of Man is all about categorising and labelling an individual into a very narrow window that defines who they are. They dont think outside the box, they dont develop outside the box and they certainly dont act outside the box. Thats a great basis for a class system. It also makes it extremely helpful for new players entering the system as everything clearly defines how and what you need to do when creating a character. Personally Rogue Trader is my favourite character creation system and I think it would be made much worse as a result of removing classes. I can understand the dislike for it and I definitely feel that the freedom of defining who you are for Black Crusade is perfect. In this universe freedom is very very bad and normally causes a lot of problems. I feel that was something I could work with and put a lot of effort to get that system into a playable state but giving this freedom creates a whole mess of problems that cascade. Sorcerors being combat and mind control gods, Apostates dumping everything into talky skills and still having an army of plasma canon/assault shotgun wielding gun servitors. Both at character creation too. Im not saying Dark Heresy was infallible (though i dont know how a character is getting a free +40 bonus for simply holding a rifle in the current system)but it far more manage from both a player and a GM perspective. Sure that gave some restrictions (Radicals Handbook for example)but I was hoping they were going to release a source book for each class to give enough freedom and variety to do what you wanted (Book of Judgement was perfect for this I found). The Noble Background package is a wierd one definitely but I simply ensure the player knows they are going to be need to spend that money to keep themselves going. The Vendetta is far more viscious that it implys in the book and it when they regularly need to buy bionics to keep function I find it balances things out rather nicely (poison dart to the head making the eyes blow out, 'honour duel' went bad for the players opponent so he hit the power field button). Its definitely not the most well thought out thing but I put it to the same guy who designed Ascension. It works...maybe...theoretically...just dont look at it too hard...or at all. As to your previous post most of the scenarios you described are perfectly at home in a Dark Heresy game. The 'trapped on the planet' one seems the most fitting for the system as yuor logistics can directly measure your full progress. EDIT: Your other stuff! I think the Sister of Battle has zero place in a Dark Heresy game especially if your trying to treat them as a full sister with power armour and a bolter. I run my Dark Heresy games with combat relative to the amount of combat characters in the party (Assassins, Guardsman, Arbitrators primarily). Generally get one or two so most of my game is about people talking, negotiating and scheming in this dystopian noir Hive Cities. Thats where Im coming from when I say with tweaking your doing very bad things to make the OW system fit. Your suddenly turning characters who are there to act like canaries in a mine shaft into an elite kill team. Something I feel is the most enjoyable aspect of Dark Heresy is when players realise just how far over their heads everything is and need to run away from whatever the hell that cult just summoned or that prowling genestealer in the catacombs or even something as simple as players panicing as some thug draw a gun on them. OW doesnt let you do that. As I said, single shotting going to be a +20, if your smart your taking a long range accurate weapon (since the nerf to shotgun scatter) and running +40 to hit. Suddenly all these raw recruits are crackshots and there isnt as much to build upon. That amazing moment when a player finally realises that hes become an expert in his field, somewhere he needed to previously scramble and scratch at every possible advantage just to havea chance to succeed. I can perfectly understand why people dont like the system designed for failing and the compacting of some skills definitely is a smart move (though they have gone a little too overboard IMO) but when your given a heavy bolter and Smite (a friggen Librarian power in the hands of some rookie fresh of the Black Ships?), its very hard to get the sense of dread going (particularly with the more controlled Psyker system). kingcom fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 09:22
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kingcom posted:As to your previous post most of the scenarios you described are perfectly at home in a Dark Heresy game. The 'trapped on the planet' one seems the most fitting for the system as your logistics can directly measure your full progress. Me, I prefer classless systems in any game, and while the Imperium does have a penchant for categorizing individuals and such, the only people who get to affect changes and have an impact are those who can think outside it (often with delicious tragic consequences). Otherwise, you might as well assign players unchanging statblocks and tell them to roll with it. The Aptitude (or in BC's case, Alignment) system is much better suited to this- you still get to purchase Advances that fit your character with ease, but still have the chance to purchase stuff you want outside the box for a small well-defined price, as opposed to Elite Advances which are subject to DM fiat. I also think that while it might not be newbie friendly in the beginning, classless systems will eventually prove more user-friendly in the long run as players become more experienced and are willing to try out newer things instead of being frustrated because their character can't do what they want them to do. Nobody's characters ever remain static, after all- look at a Techpriest's Fellowship, for example. Sure, you can argue that Techpriests are supposed to be near-emotionless servants of the Omnissiah, but there are many examples in the fluff where Techpriests are more than talking robots. And look at an Arbitrator's ridiculous Strength Advances, where Rank 1 costs 500 XP! Clerics and Psykers pay 250 for those same advances. And like you said, Fellowship Guardsmen are shafted as well. And the fact that the stories I proposed are perfectly at home in DH should be a point for OW, I say  It's a much more streamlined version of things, and as I said, it's easy to simply port OW's system into DH games, and still have things run smoothly.kingcom posted:EDIT: Your other stuff! I think the Sister of Battle has zero place in a Dark Heresy game especially if your trying to treat them as a full sister with power armour and a bolter. If it's good enough for Blood of Martyrs, it's good enough for OW Joking aside, I was only trying to go for the feel of a 'proper' Sororitas character in Only War itself (perhaps I should've been clearer). If you're planning to port it over, then by all means nerf it or have the player pick a good combination of traits to simulate a less-militant Order.kingcom posted:Something I feel is the most enjoyable aspect of Dark Heresy is when players realise just how far over their heads everything is and need to run away from whatever the hell that cult just summoned or that prowling genestealer in the catacombs or even something as simple as players panicking as some thug draw a gun on them. OW let's you do that too. Just because it's got Guardsmen doesn't mean it's all about combat (ironic, I know). Crack open the book, and you'll see what I mean. A few Specializations have Aptitudes suited for heavy combat, but not more dramatically so than the others- like a Guardsman Acolyte for a regular DH party. There are quite a few socially-adapted characters in OW; it's just that unlike a DH Adept or low-level Psyker/Techpriest they can hold their own in a fight as well. Also, you seem to be misunderstanding Guardsmen power levels as opposed to the other lines- Guardsmen roll 2d10+20 like any other Acolyte, and while they ARE better equipped than a regular Acolyte, new Guardsmen regardless of Specialization are still going to melt in the face of proper opposition; a hive ganger ain't much of a threat, but a cultist? Yeah, can still kick their asses. kingcom posted:OW doesnt let you do that. As I said, single shotting going to be a +20, if your smart your taking a long range accurate weapon (since the nerf to shotgun scatter) and running +40 to hit. Suddenly all these raw recruits are crackshots and there isn't as much to build upon. Again, it's not all about fighting, and again, it's all about having the enemy react to how the players are. Not everyone is going to rock a sniper rifle, and enemies should take advantage of that. And if all your players ARE rocking sniper rifles, then going Enemy at the Gates is obviously what they want. Also remember, the rules apply to them as much as they apply to NPCs. If the players are high-ranked/powerful enough to all get sniper weapons, then so should the badguys- anyone more powerful or weaker is someone else's problem. kingcom posted:That amazing moment when a player finally realises that hes become an expert in his field, somewhere he needed to previously scramble and scratch at every possible advantage just to have a chance to succeed. I don't quite get you here- unless you're handing out XP like candy, players will still need to specialize a little and scrimp for what they want. kingcom posted:I can perfectly understand why people dont like the system designed for failing and the compacting of some skills definitely is a smart move (though they have gone a little too overboard IMO) but when your given a heavy bolter and Smite (a friggen Librarian power in the hands of some rookie fresh of the Black Ships?), its very hard to get the sense of dread going (particularly with the more controlled Psyker system). Smite isn't as powerful as the Deathwatch version, and if your players are well-informed as to the nature of the game you're playing, they're not going to be lugging heavy bolters around. Just tell them to pick specializations that don't have HBs, and tell them you're going for a more investogative thing, and voila! You're set. Honestly, I like OW more for its system than its theme (though the Guardsman theme is one that's near and dear to my heart, don't get me wrong). EDIT: I've been going through the OW beta, and seriously, I cannot see anything you can't use in a DH game; just swap out some of the more IG-centric advances (e.g, Scholastic Lore: Tactica Imperialis with Scholastic Lore: Lex Imperialis) and you're done. Again, they're better-equipped than your typical Acolyte cell, but that little taste of power should be enough to motivate them and keep thenm interested. Once they're comfortable, THEN you spring the genestealers on them  It makes for a much more cinematic yet deadly game, and that translates into excitement. Trading stub pistol shots with gangers isn't realistic, and sending a hail of bolter shells into a Daemon Prince might get tiring after a while, but Guardsmen can trade massed lasgun fire with a horde of cultists. Similarly, Space Marines are horrible investigators, Acolytes are often terrible fighters 9and not in the good sense), and Heretics might have problems sneaking into the Imperium once they start growing horns and poo poo, but Guardsmen can fight, investigate and infiltrate to a degree, making players feel less useless once out of their comfort zone. CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 09:36
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It's also a bit unrealistic saying "but they could just get such-and-such weapons!" Logistics, the Only War version of Profit Factor, starts at 10. There is no +30 bonus for buying a single item, and penalties if the current war is going badly(even a stalemate, as long as the two sides are still fighting each other, is a -10 penalty). The only modifiers you can rely on are how long the current war has lasted, how long your regiment has been fighting, and availability, which changes depending on how many regiments total are involved. Say you want a sniper rifle. Your regiment has been on planet for about a year(+10), a rebellion started on the planet about two years ago(+20), and the war has suffered from bone-head decisions made by high-command(-20). The sniper rifle's availability is Scarce, and there are more than one regiment of guards on the planet, so that comes out to +0 from availability. Total modifier is +10, giving you a 20% chance to get a single sniper rifle. Early on you pretty much only have what you start with, and maybe any items your CO decides to give you for the current mission. Which, again, might be missing, or turn out to be something else, or maybe the clerk is just cranky and demands one of your current items due to "supply concerns". Also, just noticed there's no rules for buying more than one item at a time. That might be problematic.
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Jun 24, 2012 10:15
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Astus posted:Also, just noticed there's no rules for buying more than one item at a time. That might be problematic. Might want to post that up on the beta forums. That said, it's the Guard- you think they're just gonna let you have more grenades than your standard issue? If you've run out, and you're at a base, then your Standard Kit will be refilled, no Logistics Test needed. Outside the base, I'd houserule that you use other acquisition rules (whichever system's you fancy) to get stuff, with the caveat that if you're ever found out trading something really expensive (not necessarily illegal) the Commissariat's going to be very interested in your business practices. EDIT: It seems Specialist Gear (sniper rifles, Ripper Guns etc) and Standard Kit weapons aren't given any ammunition backup either. Off to the beta forums for me! CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 10:19
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Firstly I want to make it clear that I think a discussion on this topic is just generally awesome (the forum in general actually is pretty awesome) and if I come off as hostile or offensive I dont mean to. Astus posted:It's also a bit unrealistic saying "but they could just get such-and-such weapons!" I say this because I was refering to the Hunting Rifle in Dark Heresy, only costs 100 thrones and the assassin class starts with one. Very cheap weapon that is essentially a worse version of the OW sniper rifle. This is something everyone can afford in 2 months of pay maximum. Which reasonably speaking is enough for the players to be somewhere in rank 2 or 3 (depending on how you manage time for space travel and R&R). Thats fairly early on your entire party becomes crackshots. If your implementing the Dark Heresy lack of resources and the PF/Influence/Infamy/Logistics style of resource gathering you very quickly have the problem where a couple of lucky rolls leading certain players to be far superior to the others. Thats why all the other systems give you a stronger set of starting gear to help minimise this risk. So if your proposing you do the same thing, how much power do you give? If you give OW levels of equipment I feel you are losing out. I'll get to that below. CommissarMega posted:Me, I prefer classless systems in any game, and while the Imperium does have a penchant for categorizing individuals and such, the only people who get to affect changes and have an impact are those who can think outside it (often with delicious tragic consequences). Otherwise, you might as well assign players unchanging statblocks and tell them to roll with it. The Aptitude (or in BC's case, Alignment) system is much better suited to this- you still get to purchase Advances that fit your character with ease, but still have the chance to purchase stuff you want outside the box for a small well-defined price, as opposed to Elite Advances which are subject to DM fiat. Yea definitely a big personal point. I see the game as the players at Rank 1 are fresh to the Inquisition and are starting to develop themselves in the way they choose for perhaps the first time. Funnily every class gets access to most of the talents and skills in the game, simply not the +10/+20 or as early as other classes. The cap in the Rank tables also forced the player to take skill sets outside of their optimal route. For exampel an Assassin who wants to purely shoot guns either needs to spend all their spare points into a load of stats or choose to take some more skills and talents to round out their character. Some stealth, some melee skills, some street knowledge. All things that any reasonable assassin is going to be developing. It creates a character in the process of their growth rather than a BC/OW which actively encourages you to ignore most of the skills and talents out there and perfect whatever one field is left. You dont HAVE to do this but why wouldn't you? Taking skills outside of this skillset is going to weaken you and take a while to build up to a level that gives you solid odds of success. Ultimately a personal thing of how you view spending XP to be a growth mechanic or a fulfillment mechanic. CommissarMega posted:I also think that while it might not be newbie friendly in the beginning, classless systems will eventually prove more user-friendly in the long run as players become more experienced and are willing to try out newer things instead of being frustrated because their character can't do what they want them to do. Nobody's characters ever remain static, after all- look at a Techpriest's Fellowship, for example. Sure, you can argue that Techpriests are supposed to be near-emotionless servants of the Omnissiah, but there are many examples in the fluff where Techpriests are more than talking robots. And look at an Arbitrator's ridiculous Strength Advances, where Rank 1 costs 500 XP! Clerics and Psykers pay 250 for those same advances. And like you said, Fellowship Guardsmen are shafted as well. This is a case by case basis if your frustrated at not beign able to do something. Personally I've never seen it happen as the Dark Heresy system provide a pretty broad width of possibilities for just about every approach. THis has obviously been a problem for your group but these problems your describing are still there in OW. The Techpriest can advance its Fellowship but cant get either of the two Aptitudes that allows them to hit any of those notes without dumping ludicrous amounts of XP into it and just have the Commissar/Sergeant do it better. Personally I have have that letting your players choose clearly bad options and have their character be ineffectual causes far more frustration. The stat cost difference are still there in OW. The Commisar needs 750Xp to increase Ballistic Skill. The iconic Bolt pistol/plasma pistol firing Commissar doesn't work here. Neither system is perfect but I choose the one that provides a bit more direction for your character. CommissarMega posted:And the fact that the stories I proposed are perfectly at home in DH should be a point for OW, I say My point about importing the system into DH games is going to cause problems was my explanation of the combat system. Thats one of the few areas that has solid math behind it so I can talk about it. I was not suggesting it was all about combat. Although we did find that after 8 sesssion it was being presented as a fairly combat heavy game. CommissarMega posted:OW let's you do that too. Just because it's got Guardsmen doesn't mean it's all about combat (ironic, I know). Crack open the book, and you'll see what I mean. A few Specializations have Aptitudes suited for heavy combat, but not more dramatically so than the others- like a Guardsman Acolyte for a regular DH party. There are quite a few socially-adapted characters in OW; it's just that unlike a DH Adept or low-level Psyker/Techpriest they can hold their own in a fight as well. Firstly, am I the only one that feels like some just punched me when I read out 'OW' Anyway I have played a fair amount of the game, Im not just from no basis. Similiarly in Dark Heresy these characters could hold their own in a fight too relative to what was going on. The Psyker is still the most power DH class, using something as simple as using Unnatural Aim to get some very nice modifiers (+30 Base +10 range +10/+20 aim). The Adept got a fairly big budget as part of his career which certainly encouraged that class to play the autopistol wielder constantly spraying out that +20 or even getting an early combat shotgun to do the incredible amounts of damage DH scatter rules could give you. CommissarMega posted:Also, you seem to be misunderstanding Guardsmen power levels as opposed to the other lines- Guardsmen roll 2d10+20 like any other Acolyte, and while they ARE better equipped than a regular Acolyte, new Guardsmen regardless of Specialization are still going to melt in the face of proper opposition; a hive ganger ain't much of a threat, but a cultist? Yeah, can still kick their asses. Thats not entirely the case, your not factoring in the +5 class bonus (like the homeworld bonus but designed specificly for your class choice). The very powerful system for creating a regiment and all the bonuses it passes down towards you (which is a series of +3 bonuses to multiple stats). Skill wise your roughly the same with 2000xp give or take a skill or two. You advance more efficiently give you can cherry pick te optimal skils while the Acolyte needs to wait to get them. They all get better starting gear with a suit of armour (unless your playing light infantry then your just better off than everyone but the DH Guardsman). You can generally get some pretty powerful weapons and equipment with your customisable loadout and extra points to spend. Like a regiment entirely equiped with Triplex Pattern Lasguns (thats before I even talk about the silly Custom Pattern creation rules, not as bad as Minions but still needs to be made a little better). Yea I could see right next to eachother a DH Acolyte could be better but they get overshadowed very quickly and theres a lot you can do in OW to ensure your very well off. CommissarMega posted:Again, it's not all about fighting, and again, it's all about having the enemy react to how the players are. Not everyone is going to rock a sniper rifle, and enemies should take advantage of that. And if all your players ARE rocking sniper rifles, then going Enemy at the Gates is obviously what they want. Also remember, the rules apply to them as much as they apply to NPCs. If the players are high-ranked/powerful enough to all get sniper weapons, then so should the badguys- anyone more powerful or weaker is someone else's problem. As I said a bit earlier, hunting rifles are something you can almost get right out the gate. Its just a sensible weapon to get given it covers so many scenarios. I have run enough games to know how to deal with this but it means that the NPCS have to push the 'hit and you die' system that the 40K games work on. Accurate and Full Auto weapons are just designed for TPK given their power early until everyone can get some solid armour and/or Dodge. You change this is OW rules and Accurate weapons are terrifyingly powerful. 30 BS mob with it gets to shoot at a 70 (80 if its 75m or less). Those are good odds that things are going to go splat. You better hope your players have the Defensive quality and all like going around in big bulky Guard Flak Armour. CommissarMega posted:I don't quite get you here- unless you're handing out XP like candy, players will still need to specialize a little and scrimp for what they want. My Group found that wasn't too big a problem in OW. Given your averaging close to 40 in your core stats and you probably should get double Aptitude words for those fields your actually sitting pretty with 40% to do something and bump that to 50% if that something is combat. Those are very good odds, relatively speak of course. CommissarMega posted:Smite isn't as powerful as the Deathwatch version, and if your players are well-informed as to the nature of the game you're playing, they're not going to be lugging heavy bolters around. Just tell them to pick specializations that don't have HBs, and tell them you're going for a more investogative thing, and voila! You're set. Honestly, I like OW more for its system than its theme (though the Guardsman theme is one that's near and dear to my heart, don't get me wrong). I know its not as powerful buts its pretty scary a power. I dont want to completely restrict these specilizations though. I just dont want them to be the first thing the character gets (always found it very silly how the best weapon in the game waas handed to the Devestator marine right at the start). I like wepaon progression and scaling. It means by the time they do get a heavy weapon its not something they depend on but rather keep it stored somewhere until they realise they need a sledgehammer to solve a problem. Dark Heresy is a system that works how I need to to, using OW instead would be a different game. Not necessarily bad but its not a seemless transition as you seem to be proposing. CommissarMega posted:EDIT: I've been going through the OW beta, and seriously, I cannot see anything you can't use in a DH game; just swap out some of the more IG-centric advances (e.g, Scholastic Lore: Tactica Imperialis with Scholastic Lore: Lex Imperialis) and you're done. Again, they're better-equipped than your typical Acolyte cell, but that little taste of power should be enough to motivate them and keep thenm interested. Once they're comfortable, THEN you spring the genestealers on them I find that its far harder to get the players recognising that combat is something to avoid when you start with a load of power. For example I was running a game where the Rank 1 Acolyte cell was sent after an arms dealer. No further explanation as to why the Inquistion was after him but they went investigating. Some contact with a mess of petty hive gangs, local enforcers and a force the Ecclesiarchy had riled up all trying to take control of the situation and all ultimately purchasing their equipment from this particular arms dealer. When the players finally picked their way with enough alliances and empty promises to find this guy, it turns out what he was really here to sell was a bunch of Psykers, and waas more than happy to set them all off when he was backed into a corner...cue warp incursions. If the players were equipped like OW players, a hive gang dependent on numbers rather than firepower is not threat to the players. Primitive weapons are useless against guard flak, the players have great odds of hitting and killing them even if they were given dodge. Suddenly that patrol of Enforcers with nothing but shotguns and Flak Vests are not a problem rather than the group's Arbitrator wanting to kick their teeth in but knew in an even fight she had about a 50/50 odds of surviving. I feel that it helps create the idea that a crate of lascarbines, normally capable of gunning down the Rank 1 players(not so againt OW characters with 4 Armour + Toughness Bonus (Avg 3) - need a 5 or better to do damage) could turn the tide of the conflict overnight. CommissarMega posted:Similarly, Space Marines are horrible investigators, Acolytes are often terrible fighters (and not in the good sense), and Heretics might have problems sneaking into the Imperium once they start growing horns and poo poo, but Guardsmen can fight, investigate and infiltrate to a degree, making players feel less useless once out of their comfort zone. Agree with the Space Marine bit but Acolytes are competent fighters but they dont need to be. The Inquisition doesnt neeed to send acolytes to go and kill things, just identify and solve problems if possible. If its too big for them they can call in some Storm Troopers or even Space Marines themselves. OW still has about the same degree of usefulness outside of your comfort zone given the Aptitude system defines it and makes things so costly its a real pushback to try and break out of that mold (which sets you behind everyone else). The exception is of course if you take something because nobody else has it but that kinda leads to he circular logic of 'if you cant use it, the GM isnt going to expect you to use it, so it doesnt need to be ake for you to use it, so if you cant..'. I can definitely see you are enjoying it and it matches what you want out of the game, which make me feel good but I think the real core of the issue is what you want out of Dark Heresy is very different to what I want out Dark Heresy.
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Jun 24, 2012 12:02
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kingcom posted:I can definitely see you are enjoying it and it matches what you want out of the game, which make me feel good but I think the real core of the issue is what you want out of Dark Heresy is very different to what I want out Dark Heresy. Fair enough, but I will still maintain that a classless system will ensure a much more fun game (as opposed to overpowered etc.) than one with classes. And the rest of the rules updates are more awesome than DH's proto-rules The power levels thing though? Yep, that's something only you and your group can agree on.
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Jun 24, 2012 12:09
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CommissarMega posted:Fair enough, but I will still maintain that a classless system will ensure a much more fun game HERESY! BLAM Anyway, what do you think of the armoured company rules? I have Rogue Trader players who approahced it like its Piloting a ship, definitely interesting but Im not sure how it can handle on its own. I feel like perhaps it could be cool to run it like a Rogue Trader ship, where everyone is operating a single tank and running it like that. Falls apart when theres lots of players but could be fun.
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Jun 24, 2012 12:20
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kingcom posted:Falls apart when theres lots of players but could be fun. Give them two tanks, done This is much easier if you're allowing mixed regiments.
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Jun 24, 2012 12:27
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CommissarMega posted:Give them two tanks, done  I was more asking about them versus opponents but what you said isnt false...
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Jun 24, 2012 12:39
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kingcom posted:
Well, if you're not too keen on giving them too many vehicles, tanks have always needed infantry support. You could also give one group a fast vehicle or vehicles, and have them run interference while the tank goes for a good shot.
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Jun 24, 2012 13:05
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One of my favourite things about OW is the addition of comrades. Comrades are basically redshirts that follow the PC around and assist them. All but two of the specialisations (Commissar and Stormtrooper) get one, and each specialisation allows you to use the comrade in different ways (with some xp investment). Heavy support? Comrade is your loader. Sergeant? Comrade is your vox-operator. Psyker? Comrade is your handler and will hit you if you invoke Phenomena.
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Jun 24, 2012 14:23
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MaliciousOnion posted:One of my favourite things about OW is the addition of comrades. Comrades are basically redshirts that follow the PC around and assist them. All but two of the specialisations (Commissar and Stormtrooper) get one, and each specialisation allows you to use the comrade in different ways (with some xp investment). Heavy support? Comrade is your loader. Sergeant? Comrade is your vox-operator. Psyker? Comrade is your handler and will hit you if you invoke Phenomena. I don't like the fact that they're dumb as bricks though, requiring you to tell them to take cover and other common sense stuff.
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Jun 24, 2012 14:36
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CommissarMega posted:I don't like the fact that they're dumb as bricks though, requiring you to tell them to take cover and other common sense stuff. They literally have no stats, no wounds(they're either healthy, wounded, or dead), and can't directly harm anything. They aren't NPC soldiers so much as extensions of the player characters. Hell, the Weapon Specialist uses his Comrade as a mule, carrying all his extra weapons for him.
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Jun 24, 2012 14:40
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I'm running my first game this week and my friends are goons so I'm going to be a pain and spoiler all of the details: We've got a part of four, a Librarian/Assault Marine/Tactical/Techmarine, set during the Badab War. Thinking of modifying the Genestealer scenario from Emperor protects. Angstrom Mechanicus rep gives a mission to investigate alien tomb on a moon marked as claimed by the Mechanicus. Reports of an alien killing the workers there and the discovery of the alien architecture make it easily a Deathwatch problem. Objectives: Primary: Enter tomb. Find what is killing workers. Secondary: Don't make the Mechanicus super mad If the players ask more questions or do some investigating then the alien tomb clearly has Space Marine statues in it, further heavy handedly linking them to it. On arrival they discover the Marines weren't actually invited and the rest of the Mechanicus there don't want the Marines interfering. Mechanicus haven't broken the seal on the tomb because they can't figure it out but also that they're low on Skitarii due to them being picked off. If they can impress the Mechanicus troops then they're let in. Genescanner on the door easily lets a marine in otherwise some very creative and impressive explosives and lots of time. (ideas for ways to impress them: A group of Mech troops loyal to THE BAD GUY were detected and have fled, hunting them down and recovering X item) Inside they find Marine suits of armour and are attacked by servitors and automated defences which look alien but on investigation aren't at all. Tomb is a renegade Magus Biologica's genestealer breeding pen. Want to capture Deathwatch marines to test the Genestealer implanting process as Marines have been very resistant. If you can convert Deathwatch then it'll work on anyone. They clear the tomb, kill a pile of genestealers and discover that the 'stealers were shipped in deliberately. On leaving they are rewarded in the camp by the remainder of the ad mech guys. Original quest giver guy activates corrupted skitarii and releases last of the 'stealers. Broodlord still alive and party gets data from his ship to track it back to the source for a future mission? A lot of words there but is that enough fights and investigating for a few sessions? A fair few fights in the tomb, big fight at the end and an optional fight or two? It'll be the first session for half the players and my first one running the system so the tomb basically being a dungeon crawl makes life a bit easier there.
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Jun 24, 2012 15:06
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Karandras posted:words Yea thats a nice soild opening scenario. My only advice would be to provide a few opportunities to solve each problem. Like the Marines ignore the Mechanicum and just bust open the door themselves, techpriests arent going to stop them but are going to let them be overrun by the genestealers later as they pull back. Add a few methods to get them on your side, ally with a few minor Techpriests which can provide the authorisation to get you through. Little things like that go a long way I found though Deathwatch can be fairly light on the investigation if you want it that way.
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Jun 25, 2012 03:48
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What is the Perils of the Warp like in OW? Can you still accidentally an unbound Daemonhost while trying to teleport your lunch box into your hands?
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Jun 25, 2012 21:54
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So I've decided that if I ever play Only War, it will be as a Gentle-Giant Ogryn with a good BS and I'll try to get my hands on an Autocannon with red-dot sight (that should be simple enough for an Ogryn to use, right? "Put glowy-thing over bad-person and pull trigger"), then get someone smarter to customize it with a Custom Grip and Modified Stock. +5 BS (custom grip), +10 Single Shot, +12 Half-aim, +10 Red Dot Sight +10 Short range (150m short range!) = "Sniper" Ogryn putting 3d10+8 Pen 6 autocannon shells downrange. Who neds Ratlings? 
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Jun 25, 2012 22:40
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Galaga Galaxian posted:So I've decided that if I ever play Only War, it will be as a Gentle-Giant Ogryn with a good BS and I'll try to get my hands on an Autocannon with red-dot sight (that should be simple enough for an Ogryn to use, right? "Put glowy-thing over bad-person and pull trigger"), then get someone smarter to customize it with a Custom Grip and Modified Stock. Still sounds awesome though.
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Jun 26, 2012 03:45
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Galaga Galaxian posted:So I've decided that if I ever play Only War, it will be as a Gentle-Giant Ogryn with a good BS and I'll try to get my hands on an Autocannon with red-dot sight (that should be simple enough for an Ogryn to use, right? "Put glowy-thing over bad-person and pull trigger"), then get someone smarter to customize it with a Custom Grip and Modified Stock. Dammit, and here I thought I was the only one with the- PSYKER!
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Jun 26, 2012 04:02
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Only War one-shot with an all-Ogryn squad. The mission: Win the Commissar's bet that even the Ogryns can run this company better than its last CO.
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Jun 26, 2012 04:06
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Asehujiko posted:What is the Perils of the Warp like in OW? Can you still accidentally an unbound Daemonhost while trying to teleport your lunch box into your hands? Less Demonhost in this version and more Greater Demon possession but its mostly got all the wild and wacky problems of reality caving in if you use psychic powers. same system as Black Crusade. moths posted:Only War one-shot with an all-Ogryn squad. To be honest, the Little'un and Fierce Loyalty are some of the best rules in the game. Lets you create the Of Mice and Men scenario. kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 05:57
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I'm playing a Rogue Trader in a(obviously) Rogue Trader game. Does my character ability that lets me grant a +10 to any one ally's next test work only in combat? It says "per round" in the book and honestly it got a little annoying when all the other players kept asking me if they were getting a +10 on every miscellaneous test they made.
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Jun 27, 2012 04:03
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The ability specifically says "Rounds" so it is only active during structured time, which is almost exclusively during combat. Though really if they're being jerks and begging for a bonus on every test, just tell them to shut the hell up.
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Jun 27, 2012 10:12
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So I've been doing some musing on a one-shot or short campaign based on an Armoured Regiment and I've made an observations regarding vehicles, Tanks are stupidly durable. The Vanquisher Cannon, which in the fluff is one of the Guard's Premier tank-killer cannons with a "high first-hit kill ratio" can barely scratch a basic Leman Russ' front armor. The Leman Russ has 45/35/25 Armor and 70 structural Integrity Points (vehicle wounds basically). The Vanquisher Cannon 3d10+5 X Pen 16, Accurate. Thus a hit to the front armor with a Max damage roll will deal only 6 Structural integrity points (35 damage - 29 armor (45-16)) or a whopping 8.5% of the Russ' SI. Ignoring Righteous Fury it would take a full dozen max-damage hits to put another Leman Russ into critical damage. I know Tanks should be hard to kill on the front armor, but that is a bit ridiculous when in the tabletop, the same cannon has a very good chance of knocking out a Russ in a single hit even to the front. Obviously an RPG shouldn't be quite that lethal, but that Vanquisher cannon should have a decent chance to take out a good chunk of the Russ' SI in a single hit even to the front armor. Comparatively the standard Russ' Battle Cannon is 3d10+10 X Pen 8, Blast (10), Concussive (3), meaning it will only do 3 SI damage on a max damage roll to the front armor. Its actually more effective to aim BEHIND an enemy tank and use the Blast radius to strike the rear armor. Feels kinda cheesey to me. "Anti-Tank" rounds are available for both guns, but all they do is change the penetration to 12 (a downgrade for the Vanquisher!) and thus don't change the Battle Cannon's Blast rating at all. They're also a bit hard to get at Very Rare availability, which is a -20 to logistics test to try to get them even when there are multiple Regiments deployed to the region. Given if you're playing an Armoured Regiment game you're likely to face enemy tanks, this is a bit rough. As it is, the most reliable Anti-Tank weapon right now is the LasCannon, which is 5d10+10 Pen 10, Proven(3), which on a Max Damage Roll to the front armor of a Russ will do a respectable 25 structural integrity, on a MAX hit. On an average hit it will do 2-3 Structural integrity. Though regardless it has excellent odds of scoring a Righteous Fury. The Lascannon being so awesome is true to fluff, but the Vanquisher is arguably better at killing tanks and sucks compared to it. A possible fix I can see would be increasing the Penetration score of the Vanquisher Cannon and changing Anti-Tank rounds to a bonus to Penetration but removes the Blast Score. Alternatively, you could simply take the missile launcher approach and make the Vanquisher and Battle Cannon's damage and specialties depend on what kind of ammo is loaded into it, though that makes the artillery shells a bit less generic/one-size fits all. Finally, I have a question regarding the Battle and Vanquisher Cannons. What are their clip size and reload times supposed to represent? Is the "clip" the number of shells kept in the turret near the gun breech? Is the reload time how long it takes to draw extra shells from the ammo store inside the tank's hull? As-is switching tank shell types on the fly (such as loading Anti-tank shells when your Russ suddenly stumbles across a Chaos Predator while slaughtering cultists) is extremely prohibitive when it should simply be a case of grabbing the couple of AT shells you keep near the gun "just in case" and tossing it in on the next shot while someone else pulls more from the Hull bins. In the fluff the Russ carries a total of 40 shells and the Russ Vanquisher 28. I'd personally like to see the "clip" size reduced to 1 and the load time changed to 1 Full (which is handled by the tank's loader each turn). I see a lot of house rules in my future for all this if I do decide to do a Tanker One-shot/Mini-campaign.
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Jun 28, 2012 06:27
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