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AlternateNu posted:That finale tied up a lot more than I thought they were going to be able to do. It even answered my question (sort of) on how Kirei was able to survive getting shot by Master Assassin-guy. Though, the lack of a heart beat kind of threw me off. Is that mentioned/a plot point in FSN? I though Lancer kills Kirei in UBW by stabbing him through the heart with Gae Bolg. If he doesn't need it because "Grailserection", then whats the deal? He survives True Assassin's heart-ripping attack in Heaven's Feel, though.
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Jun 24, 2012 15:48
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AlternateNu posted:That finale tied up a lot more than I thought they were going to be able to do. It even answered my question (sort of) on how Kirei was able to survive getting shot by Master Assassin-guy. Though, the lack of a heart beat kind of threw me off. Is that mentioned/a plot point in FSN? I though Lancer kills Kirei in UBW by stabbing him through the heart with Gae Bolg. If he doesn't need it because "Grailserection", then whats the deal? while it doesn't have a beat, he has an artificial heart in there due to the grail. I forget where it exactly comes up though.
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Jun 24, 2012 15:50
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PunkBoy posted:I kinda mentioned it before, but what are the odds of this getting dubbed and released in the West? I would definitely love to get a disc set with both seasons. (Preferably less than several hundred dollars.) jonjonaug posted:Very low. Here's a better answer. Nobody knows. Aniplex USA has first dibs on this and I highly doubt they'll let Funimation touch it. They do release titles with dubs (Durarara, Madoka) but they also do sub only and the other Nasu related title - Kara No Kyoukai is now only finally getting a sub-only DVD release here sometime later this year. That just may speak more for the title itself though as it definitely had less net presence than Fate Zero did from what I've seen. I imagine they're watching how many sub only Blu-Ray sets of Fate Zero here get sold, and they will maybe use the Kara No Kyoukai DVD sales as an interest check as well (dumb, but I wouldn't put it past them). My best guess. The odds aren't really low, but not high either. If it does happen, it's not happening for at LEAST a year to put a buffer between the Japanese release and the North America one, to calm reverse importation fears. However, Anime Expo is right around the corner, we could get a surprise, unlikely, but who knows!?
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Jun 24, 2012 15:52
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AlternateNu posted:That finale tied up a lot more than I thought they were going to be able to do. It even answered my question (sort of) on how Kirei was able to survive getting shot by Master Assassin-guy. Though, the lack of a heart beat kind of threw me off. Is that mentioned/a plot point in FSN? I though Lancer kills Kirei in UBW by stabbing him through the heart with Gae Bolg. If he doesn't need it because "Grailserection", then whats the deal? Kirei's got a heart, it's just made of evil. If you stab it like Lancer does you can kill him (though Lancer also had to set the room on fire), but if you try and use a curse on it like True Assassin he's just going to laugh it off.
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Jun 24, 2012 19:17
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Kiritsugu reminds me a little of Joshua the Dog.
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Jun 24, 2012 19:38
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I think it would have been more effective if Aoi had stayed dead. This was a very good series.
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Jun 24, 2012 19:40
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Just finished watching the last ep and what everything everyone else posting what I been thinking. I really wish Ufotable somehow in someway is able to redo FSN or at least do a Heaven Feels OVA. But that won't happen, maybe they'll do the Maho series/movie if it ever get adapted.
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Jun 25, 2012 06:20
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Giovanni_Sinclair posted:Just finished watching the last ep and what everything everyone else posting what I been thinking. I really wish Ufotable somehow in someway is able to redo FSN or at least do a Heaven Feels OVA. But that won't happen, maybe they'll do the Maho series/movie if it ever get adapted. Mahoyo OVA by Ufotable... Man, don't make me want things I won't ever have.
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Jun 25, 2012 06:22
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Yasser Arafatwa posted:I kinda figured he was pissed to see Kiritsugu just completely broken. He was ready for another rumble, and instead sees a man who's lost everything and is grasping for straws and any meaning he can find amidst burning rubble. While Kotomine felt like he'd finally found an answer, Kiritsugu thoroughly had his worldview shattered and his belief system completely undermined by his vision in the grail sequence. You're right about Kotomine being disgusted by Kiritsugu at the end, but I think deep down he still felt humiliated that Kiritsugu looked right through him and just walked off. Kotomine spent all that time obsessing over Kiritsugu only to have his entire existence ignored during their last meeting. I think it also made Kirei realize that even from the beginning Kiritsugu never put much thought into him, which probably stung quite a bit given that meeting Kiritsugu was one of his major motivations. One thing that I've always thought was interesting is that in the character materials Kotomine's worst enemy is stated to be Kiritsugu, but Kiritsugu's worst enemy is... Saber. It shows that Kiritsugu never thought of Kotomine outside of acknowledging that he was a threat, and how absolutely self-loathing Kiritsugu is that his worst enemy is the person who is the most similar to him. PS: This is the greatest thing I've ever seen.
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Jun 25, 2012 07:32
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Marin Karin posted:PS: This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. That took a little while to get the joke because katakana, but holy poo poo that owns. For the Japanese impaired: Kariya: Hasta la vista! Sakura: Baby...!
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Jun 25, 2012 07:46
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Marin Karin posted:PS: This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. Holy crap, that's hosed up. Maybe should wouldn't have been so depressed in FSN if that happened.
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Jun 25, 2012 07:47
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Holy poo poo that owns.
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Jun 25, 2012 08:08
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Hey guys, in case you're sad the anime is over, don't worry! We still have the incredibly high quality manga to read! That's the handsome face of legends, all right.
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Jun 25, 2012 09:21
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Marin Karin posted:PS: This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. Marin Karin posted:Hey guys, in case you're sad the anime is over, don't worry! We still have the incredibly high quality manga to read! Gotta admit that the surprised faces are hilarious though.
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Jun 25, 2012 12:15
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Saber looks to be two crossed eyes away from being Sader. Also I want to see a series of Fate/Zero as classic action movies.
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Jun 25, 2012 18:51
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Well, that was a great last episode for a great series.
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Jun 25, 2012 19:01
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Marin Karin posted:Hey guys, in case you're sad the anime is over, don't worry! We still have the incredibly high quality manga to read! Where are they at right now?
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Jun 25, 2012 21:00
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Giovanni_Sinclair posted:Where are they at right now? The Heart.
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Jun 25, 2012 21:15
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Marin Karin posted:Hey guys, in case you're sad the anime is over, don't worry! We still have the incredibly high quality manga to read! 
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Jun 25, 2012 21:16
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Hey, Ryuunosuke, you're looking kinda COOOOOOL.
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Jun 25, 2012 23:24
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(It's Gilgamesh  )
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Jun 25, 2012 23:28
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I don't recall him getting hit in the nuts...
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Jun 25, 2012 23:32
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Mister Gutsy posted:(It's Gilgamesh Oh, bloody hell.
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Jun 25, 2012 23:34
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Marin Karin posted:He has a human body now, so probably not any time he wanted. I'm not sure how his magic works now. But that's why he's naked, because he was literally reborn thanks to the Grail. Re: Gil & FSN: Why does he need to drain prana from children though in FSN?
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Jun 26, 2012 01:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:Re: Gil & FSN: Why does he need to drain prana from children though in FSN? To keep him at full power. His existence is rather like Saber's: yes he's got a body but he's still not REALLY supposed to be around as far as Gaia is concerned.
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Jun 26, 2012 01:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:Re: Gil & FSN: Why does he need to drain prana from children though in FSN? Because Kirei is a evil vaguely Catholic priest and they hit Peak Rape with Sakura.
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Jun 26, 2012 02:56
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Rodyle posted:To keep him at full power. His existence is rather like Saber's: yes he's got a body but he's still not REALLY supposed to be around as far as Gaia is concerned. That's incorrect. He has a body and thus can exist fine but he can't use any of his Noble Phantasms or any other special abilities without prana, which Kotomine can't provide due to being an even worse magus than Shirou. Also having an actual flesh and blood body makes him weaker physically than a Servant, interestingly.
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Jun 26, 2012 03:01
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MadRhetoric posted:Because Kirei is a evil vaguely Catholic priest and they hit Peak Rape with Sakura. It creates a bit of a plot hole when you consider that the children were all in Kirei's care and somehow disappeared without anyone (including the other people presumably involved in running the orphanage and Rin) noticing anything. Then again, he could be influencing people's minds with magic, like Ciel does in Tsukihime. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 03:17
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That was a beautiful ending. Kotomine making little Rin cry was just great. Too bad he didn't have a mustache to twirl. And thanks guys for your replies. I guess there will never be Gil vs. Gil smug off.
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Jun 26, 2012 03:21
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MadRhetoric posted:They were worse when Kerry was less sympathetic, Kirei was more so, and everyone was an rear end in a top hat. I dunno--the entire story of Fate/Zero is about how ideals are impossible to live by. Literally every character with ideals in this show has them tested and ultimately destroyed. The author's motive with this piece isn't so much to experiment with a clash of ideals as it is to actively promote the destabilization of them in his audience. It seems to me that any debate involving the discussion of ideals in this show is essentially one where an idealist would be arguing against the show itself.
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Jun 26, 2012 05:13
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"Ideals are bad, period" doesn't fit with Fate/stay night's themes, though. Then again, Urobuchi is incapable of writing anything that's not filled with despair.
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Jun 26, 2012 05:28
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Mister Gutsy posted:"Ideals are bad, period" doesn't fit with Fate/stay night's themes, though. Fate/stay night doesn't completely say that ideals are bad, but it does make a point that letting an ideal dictate your life is severely unhealthy.
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Jun 26, 2012 05:33
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Mister Gutsy posted:"Ideals are bad, period" doesn't fit with Fate/stay night's themes, though. Shaitan Badi, that Black Lagoon LN. Also, Equilibrium fanfic. Cephas posted:I dunno--the entire story of Fate/Zero is about how ideals are impossible to live by. Literally every character with ideals in this show has them tested and ultimately destroyed. The author's motive with this piece isn't so much to experiment with a clash of ideals as it is to actively promote the destabilization of them in his audience. Kerry redeems his through Shirou. Kirei gains a set of 'em. Rider and Gil's are unwavering. Inconvenient ideals bring destruction, they aren't destroyed unless you're Fast Wheels. Even Saber just sorta gives up on hers by shifting it to something else.
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Jun 26, 2012 07:40
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Silver2195 posted:It creates a bit of a plot hole when you consider that the children were all in Kirei's care and somehow disappeared without anyone (including the other people presumably involved in running the orphanage and Rin) noticing anything. Then again, he could be influencing people's minds with magic, like Ciel does in Tsukihime. Much of Kirei's priest job consists of concealing magic and such from the plebes. Disappearing a couple dozen orphans would probably rank lower than covering up Cthulhu showing up in the river and eating two jets, everyone in Shirou's school collapsing due to Rider's barrier, etc. It's shown that even Waver is capable of simple memory alteration and hypnotism, probably not a big deal for him to erase the memories and paper trail of a bunch of kids who don't have any parents to miss them anyway.
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Jun 26, 2012 08:35
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MadRhetoric posted:Rider and Gil's are unwavering. Inconvenient ideals bring destruction, they aren't destroyed unless you're Fast Wheels. Even Saber just sorta gives up on hers by shifting it to something else. (Sorry if this is sloppy and difficult to read, it was a challenge to structure this argument) Rider's ideals are just as illusory as everyone else's. Consider what Gilgamesh says regarding the Ionian Hetairoi: "To unite dreams beneath a banner of conquest. I praise your efforts. But, warriors, did you not understand? That all dreams eventually disappear, when dreamers wake. Therefore, it was inevitable that I would stand in your way. King of Conquerors, you will learn the end to your endless dream." I hold that the battle between Rider and Gilgamesh is one of the most thematically significant events in the plot. To start, however, I think that it's important to examine the idea of the Reality Marble. It is essentially a type of utopia, a "good place" that is simultaneously a "no place." This is because the Reality Marble does not actually exist, but is rather an imaginary space that the creator makes manifest. It's important to note that the Reality Marble is by necessity a weapon, because it is not brought into existence solely for the creator's sake, but for the sake of making an observer experience its contents. We can say that the Reality Marble is thus the weaponization of an ideal. Gilgamesh's anti-world weapon, Ea, can then be seen as a weapon that disillusions one from the ideal (which perhaps would make it an anti-utopia weapon, the opposite of Excalibur, whose blinding light legitimizes the utopia of the battlefield), because it is capable of destroying Rider's Reality Marble. I think that before continuing, it's important to identify what, exactly, the Ionian Hetairoi represents as an ideal. I feel that the most direct way of doing this is by examining the image it creates (as one would interpret the image of a poem): The Ionian Hetairoi, as an image, essentially consists of 3 elements--the King; the King's Subjects, who are behind the King; and the Horizon, which is in front of the King. We may say that the way this image is framed is this: The Subjects can see their King, and they are following his lead; otherwise they would not be heading toward the Horizon. The King can see the Horizon and is riding towards it, but only because he is aware of the fact that he has Subjects behind him who are following him. It is worth noting that this all takes place on a relatively flat plane (the King is not on a higher place, like a hill, from his Subjects). This is essentially the physical representation of Rider's ideal of "lead by example," where the King's vision is greater than that of his Subjects, but by following his example, they may arrive at the same place that he holds in his vision (compare this to the aesthetics of Saber and you will see why Rider looks down on her politics of Kingship). This is what Rider means when he tells Waver, "As a King, it is my duty to present a dream." We can see that the dream he is presenting is the pursuit of the Horizon, of which he says: "Glory lies beyond the horizon. Challenge it because it is unreachable. Speak of conquest and demonstrate it. For the sake of my subjects who watch behind me." The image that his Reality Marble—his ideal place, or utopia—is presenting, then, requires two elements other than himself. The first is an unreachable glory that lies in the distance, and the second is the presence of his subjects who are watching him. What is interesting about the scene on the bridge is that after Gilgamesh destroys the Ionian Hetairoi, Rider is still able to create the same poetic image. Defeating Gilgamesh (which is represented in this scene through running toward him, trying to reach him, akin to his Reality Marble’s image) certainly qualifies as an unreachable glory. In asking Waver if he would like to become the King’s subject, Rider is in fact acting out of desperation. We may compare this to Saber’s claim that using her left hand while fighting Lancer would dull her blade; in Rider’s case, asking Waver to become his subject is also a strategy, because his power essentially comes from the physical manifestation of his ideal, and this relation of Horizon-King-Subject is necessary for his ideal to exist. We may say that as long as Rider has a subject to lead, his rule as King is legitimized, and he has the right to pursue the glory which lies beyond the horizon. With all of this delineated, then, and Rider’s ideal of Kingship clearly established, we can see how completely Gilgamesh destroys this image. He allows Rider to come within an inch of dealing him harm, but stops him just then. In this motion, he is simultaneously allowing Rider to come closer to his impossible dream than he ever had, while also emphasizing the sheer impossibility of it. This is something of an act of absurdity that denies the reality of Rider’s ideal: he cannot possibly reach the horizon, but sparing him from reaching it is in a way an act of mercy, because in reaching it, he would see that the horizon does in fact have an end. When Gilgamesh compels Rider to awaken from his dream, he is saying that his utopia is inherently impossible: there is no glory to obtain “beyond the horizon.” He slays Rider with Ea, the sword that is capable of destroying utopias. However, we may say that Rider’s ideal was destabilized from the very beginning; the glory beyond the horizon that he dreams of is represented by Ōkeanós, which, upon entering modern society, he came to learn didn’t exist. “You know, I once fought for something that might not have even existed. Just like you… I told everyone I’d show them Ōkeanós, and they all believed me and followed without a doubt. Many died. They were all dreaming of this Ōkeanós I spoke of, right until the end. When I gained knowledge of this era, it really hit me. I had no idea the Earth was round and closed. What a bad joke. But even so, when I saw the map, I had no choice but to accept it.” Upon his death, he says, “The beating of my heart was the sound of Ōkeanós’ waves.” This may be read on two levels. The first is that Ōkeanós’ waves were illusory, that they were not real, but merely the sound of his heartbeat. The second is that the promise of Ōkeanós was that which made his heart beat, the drive that gave him life—and upon having his ideal dispelled, there was nothing left for him to live for. Even Gilgamesh’s words of sincerity, that Rider may challenge him again and again (the recreation of the horizon), could not prevent him from reaching this conclusion.
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Jun 26, 2012 10:24
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That's an interesting analysis you have there, and darn compelling too. Still, I find it hard to agree with the rather grim reading of the final charge on the Bridge. I know this is our favorite heart-warmer we're talking about here, but reading Rider's death as this final shattering of his entire being is a little too much, especially considering the important point of Waver's own fate. He lives, and in fact is the only one whose dream isn't shattered. Despite Alexander's claims that Waver's ideals were "small and stupid," they were very much in line with Alexander's in their own way ("conquest," if you will) and a big part of their arc was about him inspiring Waver (and his dreams) to grow into something more worthwhile. The idea that Alexander asked Waver to be his retainer as a final, desperate move to grant himself the power to reach victory is a great one, but I can't help but feel like it misses a fundamental truth: If Alexander has inspired Waver to carry his impossible dream forward, than he's already won. One of the primary elements of Gilgamesh's character is getting people to see the truth. For the majority of mongrels, that truth is about being mongrels who shouldn't be challenging the king. For Alexander, that was "waking," him from his eternal dream. And yet he let Waver live, despite knowing that an inherent element of Alexander's dream is that of the follower, the one who see's the King step forward and follows him unquestioningly. While Gilgamesh was moved enough to show that measure of mercy by saying that Alexander could challenge him again and again, as you said "recreating," the horizon, it seems odd that he would permit Waver a stay from execution if he represents the final spark of the dream he so completely destroyed. Mercy to a respected enemy on his final breath isn't on the same level of unusual behavior for the King of Heroes as leaving a falsehood in his Garden intact. Even if we are to see the final charge as a recreation of his reality marble, and use of Ea to slay him as a final mark of that world's end, I just can't see his last words as an admonition of despair. Alexander showed no sign of despair when he learned Okeanos never existed, that his entire ideal was illusory and built on a foundation of empty hope. Even when he described the situation as a "bad joke," his very next words are that he accepted that truth. So when the King of Heroes kills his dream TWICE with Ea, it seems that his comment can't very well be a mark of sadness or tragedy, but of simple reality. He accepted that Okeanos itself was illusory, so it seems to me that his comment that it waves were really the beating of his heart is similarly just "accepting the truth,": His ideal that a quest for glory beyond the horizon, to chase something that wasn't real, was just a "false" as Okeanos itself. But, as you said, there is more than one layer here. If Okeanos' waves are really the beating of his heart, then the quest to find it didn't matter. He himself WAS Okeanos, the thing that was impossible to reach for those behind him. If Alexander's ideal was that the King had to lead by example, to provide a dream to inspire those behind him, then the "truth," that the King of Heroes showed him when Ea split the world was that those who follow the King aren't chasing the dream he imparts to them, they're chasing the King. If the beating of his heart was Okeanos all along, Rider was not chasing something illusory, a fake utopia, he was chasing something real, a drive that came from within to seek out the limits of the world. And if he was Okeanos, his followers weren't chasing something illusory either, they were chasing HIM. Thus, by sparing Waver, Gilgamesh assents to the truth hidden behind the falsehood that his greatest treasure burned away, and Alexander's death is shown to be one of satisfied conviction. Waver's future fate in the Nasuverse drives this home even further as he becomes a man who is known in the Clock Tower for raising up crops of genius mages who rise to the highest echelons of power. Despite being a man of modest talents, he is one of the most powerful forces in the Mages' Association because if he ever united all his students, he could take down the entire organization. In essence, he is the new Alexander, a man who inspires all those behind him to reach for the glory beyond, to the point where they can easily surpass his meager personal skill. Just as Alexander was incapable of finding Okeanos, Waver is incapable of reaching true power in magic, the thing he'd dreamed of since he first wrote that thesis that Kayneth embarrassed him with. And yet he has an army, each member of which is powerful in its own right, but follow him. The New King has inspired his subjects to greatness with the dream of the horizon, when in reality they are chasing him. Alexander's ideal, refined by Gilgamesh's truth, taken up and carried forward by Waver, who becomes the new Alexander. It all seems to fit to me.
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Jun 26, 2012 12:12
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Sanguinia posted:Waver's future fate in the Nasuverse drives this home even further as he becomes a man who is known in the Clock Tower for raising up crops of genius mages who rise to the highest echelons of power. Despite being a man of modest talents, he is one of the most powerful forces in the Mages' Association because if he ever united all his students, he could take down the entire organization. In essence, he is the new Alexander, a man who inspires all those behind him to reach for the glory beyond, to the point where they can easily surpass his meager personal skill. Just as Alexander was incapable of finding Okeanos, Waver is incapable of reaching true power in magic, the thing he'd dreamed of since he first wrote that thesis that Kayneth embarrassed him with. And yet he has an army, each member of which is powerful in its own right, but follow him. The New King has inspired his subjects to greatness with the dream of the horizon, when in reality they are chasing him.  Urobuchi is a loving genius.
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Jun 26, 2012 13:41
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I knew quite a bit about Zero going in, so a lot of things didn't surprise me. I knew that Rider and Gil would be great, that Caster would be COOOOOL, etc., but there were some things that surprised me a little: Berserker was even better than I imagined. Easily one of the coolest Servants in the franchise. Saber somehow wound up being even worse than in FSN. Maybe that's to be expected, since much of her character development happens in Fate, but she really doesn't contribute anything to Zero other than plot necessity and looking cool in a suit. So. Boring. Lancer was a worthless character. Wah wah, all of my masters are jerks and women throw themselves on me. Didn't have a single iota of the charisma present in FSN Lancer.
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Jun 26, 2012 13:46
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Sanguinia posted:Waver's future fate in the Nasuverse drives this home even further as he becomes a man who is known in the Clock Tower for raising up crops of genius mages who rise to the highest echelons of power. Despite being a man of modest talents, he is one of the most powerful forces in the Mages' Association because if he ever united all his students, he could take down the entire organization. In essence, he is the new Alexander, a man who inspires all those behind him to reach for the glory beyond, to the point where they can easily surpass his meager personal skill. Just as Alexander was incapable of finding Okeanos, Waver is incapable of reaching true power in magic, the thing he'd dreamed of since he first wrote that thesis that Kayneth embarrassed him with. And yet he has an army, each member of which is powerful in its own right, but follow him. The New King has inspired his subjects to greatness with the dream of the horizon, when in reality they are chasing him. I think it's worth noting here that Waver is actually kind of a dick to his students. He promises, for example, to never teach Rin anything because she doesn't know anything about Akibahara and is thus the "worst Japanese in the world."
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Jun 26, 2012 13:57
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Rodyle posted:I think it's worth noting here that Waver is actually kind of a dick to his students. He promises, for example, to never teach Rin anything because she doesn't know anything about Akibahara and is thus the "worst Japanese in the world." Nobody said he had to do things EXACTLY the same way. Also it's not like Rin actually needs a teacher, she's already stupidly more powerful than the majority of the clock tower including Waver by the end of any Fate route. Also also, Waver was still right by her side when she marched back to Fuyuki a few years later to dismantle the Greater Grail and end the Fuyuki Grail War cycle forever. He may be a bit grumpy, but he's still the King, baby.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:27
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