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Just finished Use of Weapons. I read the epilogue and think the shaved head guy is zakalwe but even if he is, I'm not sure what the point of the epilogue is or what relation it has to the story. Then after that was a prologue, I think that's in continuing the A, z, B, y format of the book, but I am terrible with names and I don't recognize the guy Sma is talking to. I think it's just a business as usual type moral, someone else is taking up the mantle of wetwork? I don't know. aw dang it. The next... two books aren't available on kindle. Krinkle fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jun 20, 2012 |
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Jun 20, 2012 09:22
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epilogue: Zakalwe is still trying to fight his way to redemption, just without the Culture's help Sma epilogue: When a weapon breaks, it's not a big deal. Just get a new one. In other words, Nothing gets better, everything stays in the same vicious cycle. But it's not getting worse, per se, so by Banks standards this is practically uplifting.
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Jun 21, 2012 00:38
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Lex Talionis posted:epilogue: Zakalwe is still trying to fight his way to redemption, just without the Culture's help I didn't think it was that uplifing, because Zakalwe's redemption will probably never happen, as "the bomb only lives while it is falling."
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Jun 21, 2012 14:40
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What the culture did to/with Zakalwe is disturbingly similar to what the Chel do with/to Quilan, and what the Iridians do to/with Horza. All three are just tools to be used and discarded. The Culture have better motivations and arguably treat their instruments better, but the similarities are striking (and no doubt deliberate).
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Jun 21, 2012 16:15
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:All three are just tools to be used and discarded. Weapons to be Used, almost.
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Jun 21, 2012 16:20
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See also: Gurgeh, pretty much any SC agent. Much as they'd like to pretend otherwise, they're essentially organic knife missiles.
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Jun 21, 2012 16:28
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Okay so I've read Consider Phlebas, Player of Games, and Use of Weapons. State of the arts is too hard to find. I can get excession borrowed from a distant library but it will take some time to ship. Only other ones on kindle are look to windward and surface detail (and against a dark background but I think this is a mistake, that searching for "ian banks culture" would have this pop up). Since they aren't really interrelated and I am guessing can be read out of order like the first three, and since I've enjoyed what I've read so far... Well, I feel like "You are in a maze of twisting passages, all alike" and you guys are my walkthrough. Where do I go from here?
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Jun 22, 2012 09:36
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Like you said, it doesn't really matter, but you should probably read Look To Windward before Surface Detail. I seem to recall some small plot points from LTW being mentioned offhand in SD (in a kind of historical reference kind of way). Look To Windward also provides a look at day to day life in the Culture that the other books don't.
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Jun 22, 2012 10:34
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Is Look to Windward the one with the Chel? I had read CP, UoW, and PoG also, and went with Surface Detail next, and I keep seeing references to something happening with the Chell, but no explanations. Also Surface Detail is confirming my belief that half of the reason for the galactic civilization in the Culture novels is so Iain Banks has someplace to put all the bizarre ideas he has. One of my favorite things about his books so far- everywhere you turn, something weird is happening, and it's a big galaxy.
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Jun 22, 2012 11:14
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Pope Guilty posted:Is Look to Windward the one with the Chel? I had read CP, UoW, and PoG also, and went with Surface Detail next, and I keep seeing references to something happening with the Chell, but no explanations. Yes, and it's awesome. The Culture kinda-sorta caused the Chelgrian Civil War because Contact/SC hosed up. Some Chelgrians were understandably upset about this.
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Jun 22, 2012 14:17
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Look To Windward also provides a look at day to day life in the Culture that the other books don't. Honestly, that's much of the reason why Look to Windward is my favorite culture book. That and the characters are all so drat likeable, and the general tone is more... quiet and contemplative.
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Jun 22, 2012 16:53
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Just started reading Use of Weapons, got to the first Zakalwe bit where he visits the ethnarch... 
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Jun 23, 2012 04:23
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Finished Surface Detail. Laughed at the last two words of that, and wondered if I should've guessed.
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Jun 24, 2012 18:21
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Pope Guilty posted:Finished Surface Detail. Laughed at the last two words of that, and wondered if I should've guessed. Edit: Then I felt enormously pleased with myself, and had no one to brag to because most people don't care and for my few friends who read Banks I couldn't explain it without unleashing a gigantic spoiler. This is finally the moment where I can kick back and 
Lex Talionis fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 22:03
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Good catch on the anagram. Still, I don't know if the reveal in Surface Detail really made me reevaluate anything about the narrative. Seemed a little extraneous but if anyone has any thoughts I'd be curious.
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Jun 24, 2012 22:17
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Lex Talionis posted:I don't remember where I was in the book (halfway at least, but maybe at the point where someone from SC says they knew him of old. Anyway, I started thinking about Vatueil and found myself increasingly bothered by his name. There just seemed to be something off about it. I guess although it was awful it didn't seem to be awful in the same way that most Banks character names are. I stopped reading and tried to figure out what it was, and because I was on a plane there wasn't much to distract me. I'm actually a big enough Use of Weapons fan that I was able to figure out it was an anagram for Livueta. That pretty much gave the game away. Yeah, I went looking for people talking about it and there's a forum thread out there that mentions it. I had a copy of Matter lying around that I hadn't read for some reason, so I guess that's what I'm on to next. I really liked Surface Detail; Player of Games remains my favorite Culture so far (I've read those two and Consider Phlebas and Use of Weapons), but Surface Detail was pretty close to as good.
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Jun 24, 2012 22:27
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Pope Guilty posted:Yeah, I went looking for people talking about it and there's a forum thread out there that mentions it. I had a copy of Matter lying around that I hadn't read for some reason, so I guess that's what I'm on to next. I really liked Surface Detail; Player of Games remains my favorite Culture so far (I've read those two and Consider Phlebas and Use of Weapons), but Surface Detail was pretty close to as good. Be prepared to be somewhat disappointed in Matter. The climax of the story is pretty bad (although the denouement is satisfying). You should really read Look to Windward, I think it's perched with Use of Weapons right on the top of the heap.
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Jun 25, 2012 00:02
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I think the later Culture books could just do with some more savage editing to trim down the fat and make them focused. It's not a coincidence that each book seems to be getting longer than the last.
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Jun 25, 2012 12:52
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andrew smash posted:Be prepared to be somewhat disappointed in Matter. The climax of the story is pretty bad (although the denouement is satisfying). You should really read Look to Windward, I think it's perched with Use of Weapons right on the top of the heap. The pacing is also pretty terrible. It felt like nothing terribly exciting happened in the first 90% of the book, then Banks went "oh gently caress-CLIMAX... end". I'm in agreement with Gravitas Shortfall. I've said this before, but it seems like Banks is becoming one of those authors who become so successful that they start rushing first drafts to print and ignoring their editors. Both Matter and Surface Detail were bloated and contained shaky plot elements that don't hold together well. Even in Look to Windward, for as much as I love that book I always tell people to skip the Behemothaur chapters because as far as I can tell they have no bearing whatsoever on the other two plot arcs.
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Jun 25, 2012 18:31
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Good catch on the anagram. Still, I don't know if the reveal in Surface Detail really made me reevaluate anything about the narrative. Seemed a little extraneous but if anyone has any thoughts I'd be curious.
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Jun 26, 2012 00:01
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Coriolis posted:Even in Look to Windward, for as much as I love that book I always tell people to skip the Behemothaur chapters because as far as I can tell they have no bearing whatsoever on the other two plot arcs. Not sure I remember the chronology perfectly, but it's slowly revealed that the murdered Behemothaur is where Quilan was training for the wormhole displacements. The Culture guy stumbles on the aftermath of the training, and tries to warn the Culture that something is wrong. It's misdirection, but we're lead to believe that his broadcast of the events in the airsphere might foil the plot to destroy the Orbital. It ended up not really mattering, since he was killed before he could. Aside from fleshing out the world more and making things feel less isolated, it hinted at a possible resolution/vehicle for the climax. So it wasn't useless, in my opinion.
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Jun 26, 2012 00:33
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Coriolis posted:The pacing is also pretty terrible. It felt like nothing terribly exciting happened in the first 90% of the book, then Banks went "oh gently caress-CLIMAX... end". I enjoyed the first part of the book despite all that. The main character's manservant was very amusing. The plot was pretty shaky though, that much I'll agree with.
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Jun 26, 2012 06:03
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andrew smash posted:I enjoyed the first part of the book despite all that. The main character's manservant was very amusing. The plot was pretty shaky though, that much I'll agree with. I'd agree with this. Matter basically strikes me as Banks doing a sci-fi version of Don Quixote, and just as Sancho Panza is the best of that book, Choubris Holse is the best part of Matter. There're a few good Culture bits, and the end, even though it's rushed, is at least quite exciting, but generally I think the book's a lot more enjoyable when you take it as the meandering adventures of Sir Vain Dumbass and his long suffering manservant. Its ridiculous length is also at least partly justified by looking at it that way.
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Jun 26, 2012 08:33
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Not sure I remember the chronology perfectly, but it's slowly revealed that the murdered Behemothaur is where Quilan was training for the wormhole displacements. The Culture guy stumbles on the aftermath of the training, and tries to warn the Culture that something is wrong. It's misdirection, but we're lead to believe that his broadcast of the events in the airsphere might foil the plot to destroy the Orbital. It ended up not really mattering, since he was killed before he could. Aside from fleshing out the world more and making things feel less isolated, it hinted at a possible resolution/vehicle for the climax. So it wasn't useless, in my opinion. It also gives you an idea about who some of the other involveds might be who were involved in the plot against the culture.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:22
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Circle Nine posted:It also gives you an idea about who some of the other involveds might be who were involved in the plot against the culture. I don't think it really gives you an idea of who they are, just that the Chel weren't acting on their own, which adds an interesting dimension to the whole thing.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:47
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Barry Foster posted:I'd agree with this. Matter basically strikes me as Banks doing a sci-fi version of Don Quixote, and just as Sancho Panza is the best of that book, Choubris Holse is the best part of Matter. Matter is slightly subversive in that it seems to be making an argument for the insignificance of the human in the face of the vast history and political scope of the Culture galaxy. What's-his-face the betrayer general is set up as a really compelling, loathsome villain, and for most of the book we're occupied with a vain prince's quest to unseat him, and his younger brother's journey out of childhood naivete. But in the end they're all devoured - comped, as Matter would say - by this ancient machine war that renders their struggles totally irrelevant.
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Jun 26, 2012 15:01
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Circle Nine posted:It also gives you an idea about who some of the other involveds might be who were involved in the plot against the culture. Who?
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Jun 26, 2012 15:03
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Coriolis posted:Who? Well, they show that the Chel are being aided by drones that are not Chel-made, who are of a different design than Culture drones.
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Jun 26, 2012 15:57
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Ah, I didn't remember that part. It's been kind of awhile since I read it. Although that still doesn't really rule out the Interesting Times gang or something. They could have just built different-looking drones.
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Jun 26, 2012 16:15
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Masaq Hub even speculates that it could have been a rogue group of Minds within the Culture trying to "toughen it up", though honestly I don't quite buy that.
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Jun 26, 2012 16:39
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Barry Foster posted:I'd agree with this. Matter basically strikes me as Banks doing a sci-fi version of Don Quixote, and just as Sancho Panza is the best of that book, Choubris Holse is the best part of Matter. That's a really good reading of it, and I like the way the 'tilting at windmills' idea matches General Battuta's idea about why the book is subversive.
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Jun 26, 2012 17:20
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Circle Nine posted:It also gives you an idea about who some of the other involveds might be who were involved in the plot against the culture. Gravitas Shortfall posted:Masaq Hub even speculates that it could have been a rogue group of Minds within the Culture trying to "toughen it up", though honestly I don't quite buy that. With the announcement of the The Hydrogen Sonata and what its about I've begun to wonder if Chel's mysterious backers (the Chelgrian-Puen were just giving the marching orders) and the existence of the Numina branch of Contact were allusions to some conflict between the Culture and the Sublimed.
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Jun 26, 2012 22:16
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Maybe they've finally got pissed off enough about the Culture's field technology to do something about it.
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Jun 27, 2012 11:43
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Maybe they've finally got pissed off enough about the Culture's field technology to do something about it. That was just that one particular sublimed, wasn't it? Field technology on a basic level seems like it's a kind of fundamental technology to any Involved or even remotely near Involved level group, the Culture's just better at it than most.
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Jun 27, 2012 11:52
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MikeJF posted:That was just that one particular sublimed, wasn't it? Nope, it's a running theme. I beleive the Behemothaurs don't like field technology either, and they're supposed to have links to the Sublimed. I swear there's another example too. My theory is that fields are 4-dimensional constructs that block or interfere with the Sublimed's view or reach. Normal 3 dimensional constructs would be transparent - like us looking down at a stick figure enclosed by a circle.
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Jun 27, 2012 15:55
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Nope, it's a running theme. I beleive the Behemothaurs don't like field technology either, and they're supposed to have links to the Sublimed. I swear there's another example too. Hmm, there's that habitat, Tier, in Excession that was run by a steward race of synthetic constructs. That was supposedly constructed by a Sublimed race, and I think field technology was restricted there. Then there was the Bulbitian habitat err... thing, that Yime investigated in Surface Detail. It was also connected to the Sublimed, and was pretty unhappy with the Bodhisattva using fields in its proximity. So much so it crushed the GCU like a tin can. But its possible that was because they were getting too nosy.
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Jun 27, 2012 20:21
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The Bulbitian attacked the Bodhisattva because Yime had a neural lace that was actively transmitting their conversation beyond it's abilities to alter Yime's memory. I don't recall Tier having any issues with field technology, they're just incredibly suspicious of artificial intelligences. (No Minds allowed, drones and avatars watched continuously). I don't think the Chelgrian-Puen had an issue with field technology either; you're probably confusing them with the dirigible behemothaurs.
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Jun 28, 2012 00:17
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Ah, yep. Right on both counts. I wasn't off on the Bulbitian disliking fields though. They had little wheeled servant drones with robot arms because of it. Also, I wasn't trying to imply the Chelgrian-Puen had an issue with the technology.
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Jun 28, 2012 02:35
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Oh, right, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Bulbitians and behemothaurs are on record as disliking field technology and having some kind of link to the Sublimed.
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Jun 28, 2012 09:20
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Hey they replaced that lovely looking cover art for both the UK and US editions of the new one:  Edit: the blurb's probably been posted here before, but here it is again for posterity: The Scavenger species are circling. It is, truly, the End Days for the Gzilt civilization. An ancient people, organized on military principles and yet almost perversely peaceful, the Gzilt helped set up the Culture ten thousand years earlier and were very nearly one of its founding societies, deciding not to join only at the last moment. Now they’ve made the collective decision to follow the well-trodden path of millions of other civilizations; they are going to Sublime, elevating themselves to a new and almost infinitely more rich and complex existence. Amid preparations though, the Regimental High Command is destroyed. Lieutenant Commander (reserve) Vyr Cossont appears to have been involved, and she is now wanted — dead, not alive. Aided only by an ancient, reconditioned android and a suspicious Culture avatar, Cossont must complete her last mission given to her by the High Command. She must find the oldest person in the Culture, a man over nine thousand years old, who might have some idea what really happened all that time ago. It seems that the final days of the Gzilt civilization are likely to prove its most perilous. I've also heard that this is the longest Culture novel yet. Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Jun 28, 2012 |
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Jun 28, 2012 10:51
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