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Caufman posted:Speaking of the daughters, I'm rewatching season seven, and I'm learning that I enjoy Ellie the most, especially the wedding prep segments. The fruit fly guy is so twitchy and weird and out of place, but it works (in a way that Ryan Pierce from the fifth season never did). Ellie is definitely the best Bartlet daughter.
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Jun 24, 2012 18:58
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DarkCrawler posted:Ellie is definitely the best Bartlet daughter. And the prettiest, but I do have a soft spot for blondes.
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Jun 28, 2012 18:12
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I just recently remembered another thing that stood out to me on repeated viewings. When Leo meets his Secret Service detail, he asks who gets the president and who got stuck with him, and seems a bit taken back when he gets told all those agents are from him. As if the former Chief of Staff wouldn't be perfectly aware of the amount of security around both POTUS and VPOTUS.
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Jun 28, 2012 19:02
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They're only candidates at that point though, so while he might remember from the previous election, it's still gotta be a little shocking to see them all at once.
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Jun 28, 2012 21:49
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Asiina posted:They're only candidates at that point though, so while he might remember from the previous election, it's still gotta be a little shocking to see them all at once. And I'm sure it feels different when they're there for you, not someone else.
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Jun 28, 2012 21:53
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Ellie also shows up in Sports Night for an episode. I think she's Casey's kid's babysitter.
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Jun 29, 2012 14:31
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Chamberk posted:Ellie also shows up in Sports Night for an episode. I think she's Casey's kid's babysitter. And she's in The American President as the love interest's roommate.
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Jun 29, 2012 17:24
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BrooklynBruiser posted:And she's in The American President as the love interest's roommate.
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Jun 29, 2012 18:23
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Another one of my least favorite exchanges. Will and Kate, 7.10quote:"What are you doing here on a Sunday?"
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Jun 30, 2012 23:13
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myron cope posted:People don't talk like that. Particularly the "alarmingly alluring" and "dismayingly so" parts. I for one am unrepentantly fond of adverbs. 
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Jun 30, 2012 23:37
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There are a few truly awful moments like that in the series, but I guess it comes with the territory (that territory being "make sure you write every character as smarter than any viewer could ever hope to be") Equally stupid: quote:SAM
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Jun 30, 2012 23:46
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Nimbly done.
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Jun 30, 2012 23:52
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:There are a few truly awful moments like that in the series, but I guess it comes with the territory (that territory being "make sure you write every character as smarter than any viewer could ever hope to be") I just saw an episode of Sports Night that had this impossibly clever line. There's no way Dana thought of it at the moment. quote:This is a cheap excuse to get out of marrying me, which you never wanted to do in the third place. And the only reason you proposed in the second place was out of guilt for having slept with Sally in the first place.
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Jul 1, 2012 00:00
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myron cope posted:Another one of my least favorite exchanges. Will and Kate, 7.10 There could be no way I would enjoy this show and rewatch it regularly if the characters talked as people do. If I want clumsy, unoriginal, mundane and believable dialog, I'd eavesdrop conversations at the bus stop.
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Jul 1, 2012 02:31
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Caufman posted:There could be no way I would enjoy this show and rewatch it regularly if the characters talked as people do. If I want clumsy, unoriginal, mundane and believable dialog, I'd eavesdrop conversations at the bus stop. Well I mean, I don't want them to go "hey ur neat lets go out lol", I just don't like the language in this particular conversation. I cringe when I see that scene.
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Jul 1, 2012 02:40
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That's a problem that I noticed much more in the last two seasons. I've always attributed it to people who aren't Sorkin trying to write in Sorkin's style, which they interpret simply as rapid-fire big words.
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Jul 1, 2012 05:48
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I watched the show about two or three years ago and gave up around the start of season 3. All the talk of The Newsroom has me thinking back on the show. I was never as fanatical as a lot of people on it. I thought it had some good moments, and I remember liking CJ and Josh. But I was just wondering if I missed anything good. Are there any particularly good episodes or moments worth checking out? Or have I pretty much seen all I need to see?
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Jul 1, 2012 14:19
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If you liked Josh, you'll probably enjoy the Santos campaign portion of the show, which starts in 6x06 "The Dover Test".
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Jul 1, 2012 14:23
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myron cope posted:Another one of my least favorite exchanges. Will and Kate, 7.10 Reads/sounds like a 16 y/o on the internet trying to impress people.
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Jul 1, 2012 18:29
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myron cope posted:Another one of my least favorite exchanges. Will and Kate, 7.10 I COULD see Stephen Fry talk like that.
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Jul 1, 2012 18:33
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Just finished Season 4 on my re-watch I had forgotten how goddamn tense the last few minutes of What Kind of Day It Has Been are.......gently caress Also, gently caress the French boyfriend. I'm with Jed on that one
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Jul 2, 2012 01:52
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Kloaked00 posted:Also, gently caress the French boyfriend. I'm with Jed on that one
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Jul 2, 2012 02:04
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Hoops posted:He's 100% written to get the audience's sympathy for Charlie. You couldn't imagine a worse guy for your ex that you're still in love with to be sleeping with. Arrogant, rich, European prettyboy douche. The male psyche is just attuned to hate him. They didn't really need Jean-Paul to get me on board with Charlie, Charlie is one of my favorite characters ever.
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Jul 2, 2012 02:10
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BrooklynBruiser posted:They didn't really need Jean-Paul to get me on board with Charlie, Charlie is one of my favorite characters ever.  e: Also Sam Seaborn: You're telling me you've never been to college and after taking two classes this summer you're going to be like, a junior? Charlie Young: With a pretty decent G.P.A. Sam Seaborn: Charlie, just how smart are you? Charlie Young: I've got some game. MC Fruit Stripe fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jul 2, 2012 |
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Jul 2, 2012 02:13
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BrooklynBruiser posted:They didn't really need Jean-Paul to get me on board with Charlie, Charlie is one of my favorite characters ever. He's so awesome that he's carried over the awesomeness to Psych. I'm on the last disc of season 7. I completely understand why it could have never happened, but I wish the series went on for just one more year. Or even a couple more episodes 
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Jul 2, 2012 02:15
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I'm up to season 3. The Newsroom coming out made me decide to go back and watch TWW as I had never seen it before. Boy was I stupid for missing this. So many fist pumping, tear jerking moments. It's awesome.
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Jul 5, 2012 14:40
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I convinced my girlfriend to watch the series with me (had to settle for $120 and free shipping from buy.com) and am struggling through the Mandy scenes... We are eight episodes in so it should almost be done, but she did say that she thinks Mandy is kind of funny. Not sure if that is a good sign or a bad sign. She likes Toby a lot though - that is always a good sign.
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Jul 6, 2012 05:45
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Shes not gonna miss Mandy, no body did.
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Jul 6, 2012 16:19
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OctoberBlues posted:I convinced my girlfriend to watch the series with me (had to settle for $120 and free shipping from buy.com) and am struggling through the Mandy scenes... We are eight episodes in so it should almost be done, but she did say that she thinks Mandy is kind of funny. Not sure if that is a good sign or a bad sign. She likes Toby a lot though - that is always a good sign. There's your redemption right there. All will be right in your world.
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Jul 6, 2012 17:07
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Oh god, I'm going through season 7 again, just about halfway through. Was season 5-7 really this terrible when it was first broadcast? I can't remember cringing so much with all the DRAMATIC music and the camera extreme close ups. I guess since I was still in high school back then, I didn't really notice. I miss the brotherhood of Josh and Toby (I work in the white house) from 20 hours in America so much.
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Jul 6, 2012 18:02
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myron cope posted:He's so awesome that he's carried over the awesomeness to Psych. I kind of wanted them to call the last episode "The Show That Never Ends".
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Jul 6, 2012 20:00
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Uppity Catamite posted:Oh god, I'm going through season 7 again, just about halfway through. Season five was this terrible. Seasons 6-7 were their own thing by the time we got to Vinnick/Santos, which I really really enjoyed. I liked the arc of Josh coming apart at the scenes and Rob Lowe coming back. And plus, going back over it seeing how small the Santos campaign was to how big it was is really great. And I enjoyed the season finale of season six. Plus the fact that Vinnick's team is made up of ex-sitcom stars is great. I'm not going to lie, I really really liked the last two seasons. Yes, it's a different show with a different tone, but I'll take seasons 6-7 of the West Wing any day of the week. I can't recall if any of the actual "West Wing" episodes were any good, I don't think they were. Oh, I also liked the dimension of Toby helping Josh out on the campaign and their eventual (semi)reconciliation. I think their relationship is one of the better ones in the series. algebra testes fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jul 7, 2012 |
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Jul 7, 2012 18:56
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LordPants posted:I'm not going to lie, I really really liked the last two seasons. Yes, it's a different show with a different tone, but I'll take seasons 6-7 of the West Wing any day of the week.
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Jul 8, 2012 03:07
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WoG posted:Yeah, it got good when the writers realized the only way to make a decent West Wing without Sorkin was to make a different show and call it 'West Wing'. I just wished they had done a totally different show, because I find the stuff at the White House in seasons 6-7 incredibly depressing. Bartlet surrounded by a skeleton staff of nursemaids, unable to stand up or do much of anything. I keep thinking that I should rewatch the later seasons because of Santos-Vinick, but then I remember and I realise that I can't bring myself to watch the sad decline of Josiah Bartlet. 
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Jul 10, 2012 02:30
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Okay, I'm going to do a huge post even though I'm sure a lot of this has been covered. I just finished doing a rewatch of the entire series and stared going through this thread, haven't finished yet, wanted to get all my thoughts out. Seasons I agree with the prevailing attitude that the first four seasons were the best and season 7(and the latter half of 6) were a resurgence of quality. I'm not a huge fan of season 1. Mandy is an annoying character from the start and the direction's a little shakey, but it's probably just my judgment being clouded by the later episodes. Obviously the writing's great and it's the building block for all the characters. The rewatch made me surprised by how thoroughly well-drawn the characters are from the start. My favourite small moment from season 1 was Charlie's first appearance and his exchange with Josh after talking to the President: Charlie: "I've never felt like this before." Josh: "It doesn't go away." The strongest era of The West Wing are seasons 2 and 3 to me. Season 2 is an example of a perfect season of television. It's just stacked front-to-back. "Two Cathedrals" is amazing if you ever want to see a President go to church and yell at God in Latin. And who the hell doesn't want to see that? I'm also a big fan of season 3. I enjoy the throughline of the MS fallout, the ramp up to the election and CJ and Simon. I've heard seasons 1 & 2 touted as the prime West Wing period, but I'll take 2 & 3 any day of the week. Season 4 is the beginning of the decline. It gets darker and you can tell Aaron Sorkin is frustrated and leaving. I kind of love the audacity of what he does, leaving the show in the way he does, but the depressing nature of the season kind of brings me down on it. I still prefer it to season 1, but I think writing Sam out was the beginning of the decline. Joshua Malina as Will Bailey is a pretty great addition though, different enough from Rob Lowe and Sam that it isn't as much of a blatant replacement as it would normally appear to be. Season 5 is pretty crappy. Not only does it fail to pull out of the depressing tailspin Sorkin put the show into while laughing and abandoning ship, but it doesn't even get more depressing in an interesting way. It loses Sorkin's style, which sucks. There are a lot of moments where it seems like Bartlet or Toby should be speechifying in that Sorkinian way and it doesn't happen. You get blue balls early on until you can adjust to the new style. There are still a few highlights though. The Shutdown is actually a good storyline, and it turns into the first relief valve for the depression. Keeping Josh out of the game and then his triumphant resurgence to solve all the problems was pretty great and reminded me of class West Wing. I also really liked "The Supremes". Still, easily the worst season. Although, season 6 part 1 is pretty bad too. The show making GBS threads all over Leo is something no one wants to see and Bartlet's declining health is sad instead of poignant. It's all basically the same dark blur as season 5 until Alan Alda and Jimmy Smits show up. Focusing on the Josh's efforts on the campaign trail was a great idea and those episodes easily overshadow any of the West Wing episodes, due to poaching most of the interesting characters and doing very little with the remaining ones. "2162 Votes" is hectic and tense and fun and has a hell of a stinger, making up for the Leo-making GBS threads that happened early on. "Ninety Miles Away" is still one of the worst episodes though. Season 7 is really good, thanks in large part to Alan Alda. More time with him--and Ron Silver--unfortunately meant less time with Allison Janney, Dule Hill and Martin Sheen and almost no time with Richard Schiff, which sucked. "The Debate" is pretty boring television after the first watch, but there are a lot of great episodes throughout. The Josh/Donna and CJ/Danny relationships had great, worthwhile conclusions and "Tomorrow" is a very fine finale. Still...Toby got loving shafted. Overall, my arbitrary season rankings are 2, 3, 4, 1, 7, 6, 5 with 1 and 7 being pretty close. What I'm most impressed with, pre- and post-Sorkin, is the amount of internal continuity the show was able to keep. There are obvious bits of oversight and retro-fitting and necessary flubbing that went on, but the amount that the show was able to wrap up was really, really impressive. Characters Okay, I think I'll go character-by-character and just dump scattershot opinions and thoughts. Bartlet Has there ever been a better marriage between material and actor than Martin Sheen and Josiah Bartlet? He's so drat good that he's one of the first images that pops into my head when I think of US Presidents(I'm not American, so hopefully that's not depressing). I saw him on Colbert recently and they did the jacket-over-the-back thing that Sheen does when putting his coat on(yes, I know that's how Sheen actually puts his jacket on) and they referred to it as putting armor on and it's spot-on. Everything that man does it so loving Presidential. I loved every relationship he had in the show, his soft "Claudia Jeans" to CJ, his relationship with Charlie(cried when he game him the knife set and when he gave him his copy of the Constitution) and of course anything he did with Leo. Abby I've had a crush on Stockard Channing since I was a kid who watched Grease. She just gets better with age. She's almost elemental in every scene she's in, storming through and drawing your attention. Her scenes with Martin Sheen are like master classes. I'd watch the two of them play against each other in anything. She has that classic star quality and she got to play a great character. You could tell that Abby was someone Bartlet would be with. I'd watch a show of their courtship. Leo poo poo. I get sad just thinking about it. Leo is amazing and John Spencer is Leo. "As long as I've got a job you've got a job", Bartlet for President, "Do you have a best friend? Is he smarter than you? That's your Chief of Staff". Even after his death, Spencer was all over The West Wing and it shows how much he and his character were entwined with each other that the Spencer's death sadly fit and gave the finale a perfect final scene. Josh He's one of my favourite television characters, arguably the main character of the show(which shifted weekly, but he and Bartlet have the best claim to it...sorry Rob Lowe) and indicative of everything wrong and right with Sorkin. He's brash and cocky and openly shown as a bulldog, which I love, but he's also used as Sorkin's mouthpiece often--particularly the LemonLyman incident--which does the character a disservice. He had three strong love interests in Donna, Amy and Joey and Bradley Whitford's insanely good chemistry worked wonders with all of them. Whitford was basically born for this role, both funny and affecting. He pretty much kills it all the time. CJ The biggest argument against the notion that Sorkin can't wrote strong women...he can, he just chooses to write them and make them subservient to men. Luckily he didn't do this a lot with CJ, and any time he did it felt really wrong and really out of place. Allison Janney was a great choice for CJ, her personality and physicality worked so well. She also got the best love interest on the show(or tied for best with Bartlet and Josh). The biggest compliment to Allison Janney's performance and CJ as a character is the fact that she manages to anchor the White House aspect of the final season almost completely on her own. Even more-so than Martin Sheen, in my opinion. Toby A really great character that not many shows would ever utilize well. The idealistic, brooding, Jewish liberal whose prickly personality pitted him against everyone. I liked that he was always seemed outside of everything due to his personality. He could play the devil's advocate and it suited his character, something that happened a lot in the later seasons with different characters and it never fit. The turn his character took in season 7, and him basically being written out of half of the season was pretty bad. It made for a poignant moment in the final episode, with Bartlet pardoning Toby, but it sucked because it deprived us of Richard Schiff. I think his character ultimately had the most untapped potential. Every other character got led to their natural conclusion except for him. Donna Janel Moloney is pretty underappreciated. Donna's a fairly thin character at first, held together by Moloney's performance and her chemistry with Whitford. She doesn't get enough credit for her half of that work. Moloney gets a lot to play with in season 6 and she shines. Donna's conversation with Josh in early season 7 is heartbreaking and their eventual kiss/hookup was able to be both inevitable and exciting. Moloney is hilarious and can do a heartbreaking sad puppy dog face. Sam I like Sam a lot. Rob Lowe is loving hilarious, so that help. While Toby is arguably the most idealistic Sam is the most outwardly and naively idealistic. He's the bright-eyed, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington-type political player and he completed the set and the show was worse-off without him. Wily Josh, mopey Toby, strong CJ and experience Leo never worked the same without naive Sam. I get why Rob Lowe left the show and I'm glad that he came back at the end of the last season. Of course Josh would tap him for the new White House. Josh's Leo to Sam's Josh is a pretty great combo. Charlie I loving love Charlie. I don't know what else to say, really. He's a pretty great character that avoids a lot of the story missteps other character got into. To be fair, he wasn't utilized as much as the others, which sucked, but Dule Hill always made the most of whatever he was given. I think his character floundered a bit when he worked for CJ in the later seasons, not really living up to the potential awesomeness of that idea. Still...Charlie + Zooey 4 Lyfe. Will The best thing about Will was that he doesn't just come off as a Sam replacement. I think almost immediately shifting him away from the White House by putting him on the Vice President's staff--obviously setting up having more known characters on the Primary campaign trail--was a big mistake. It made his character flighty and it drained the character pool of the White House more than it should have. They corrected it eventually by making him the Press Secretary, but it was pretty late in the game. The bright side is Joshua Malina is fun to watch no matter what. Kate Eh, I never really liked Kate. I liked the idea of her and I didn't dislike how Mary McCormack played her. I think she got shafted by having a character that wasn't created by Sorkin, although Vinick and Santos are both interesting, so who knows? Vinick Holy poo poo, if your show is circling the drain just add some Alan Alda. He was such a breath of fresh air. His general affable stateliness made Vinick live up to the reputation of a master campaigner that Leo described him as. He also got great people to play off of: Stephen Root, Patricia Richardson and bringing back Ron Silver as the awesome Bruno Gianelli was a great idea for keeping us interested in wider aspects of the Vinick campaign. It's actually a little disappointing when he loses, which is a compliment to the writers. Although him accepting the Secretary of State position is triumphant. Santos I'm not the biggest Jimmy Smits fan, so Santos put me off at first. The character was great and the story potential was big but it took me a while to grow into it. I think his interplay with Teri Polo finally sold me on him. Also, the amount of prescience when it came to Obama is downright eerie in retrospect. At the end of the series I always want to see the stories of that White House, with Josh, Sam, Donna and Amy working with each other. And Vice President Al Bundy! Final Question Who is more likely to become President: Sam or Charlie? EDIT: I forgot about John Goodman. John Goodman loving owns in everything and The West Wing is no exception. LesterGroans fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jul 10, 2012 |
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Jul 10, 2012 06:00
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Why do you hate Mrs. Landingham?  Great write-up, though!
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Jul 10, 2012 09:33
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LesterGroans posted:Kate Kate never really worked for me either. Probably because I associate the character with pretty much the worst episode of the show (90 Miles Away). I also never really found her relationship with Will all that compelling. Actually that's especially weird, because this show usually had a real knack for finding actors that have great chemistry together, as you already pointed out. I think I agree with your order of seasons, although in my mind 1, 4 and 7 really are incredibly close to each other. Unfortunately there's also no doubt that 5 is the worst season. I still enjoyed it, and I never even came close to giving up on the show. But especially on a rewatch it's really strange to see how humourless (or depressing, as you put it) that season is.
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Jul 10, 2012 09:41
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LesterGroans posted:EDIT: I forgot about John Goodman. John Goodman loving owns in everything and The West Wing is no exception. Oh, man! John Goodman was an absolute masterstroke, with some fantastic lines! President Walken: "If Zoey Bartlet turns up dead, I'm going to blow the hell out of something, and God only knows what happens next." Another highlight from that season for me is the episode with Judge Ashland, it's just so on the money. Ashland: "Its all compromises, now. The ones who have no record of scholarship; no body of opinions, nothing you can hold them to. That's who they'll confirm. Raging mediocrities... I have good days and bad. But on my worst days, I am better than the amped-up ambulance chasers you could get confirmed by this Senate. You can't do it, Jed. You're not strong enough. The Speaker's running the table and I can't take a chance."
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Jul 10, 2012 12:21
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Great write up. I can help myself and must be near the 10th time I see the whole series. I do agree with your point on the Bartlet episodes on season 7, one exception tought is the ellie`s wedding one. This one episode shows again the president strong and being able to work without to many health concerns. What I do hate in this episode, is how easely is Santos willing to throw Josh to the sharks when pressured by the party elders. For a while after that I really cheered for Vinick. edit for spelling Pigbottom fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jul 10, 2012 |
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Jul 10, 2012 13:25
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LesterGroans posted:
Sam has a head-start, but Charlie will probably be the youngest president ever. 
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Jul 10, 2012 13:31
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