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I've heard good things about the TaDE Noise Phobia series and they have a whole training protocol that comes with the cd if you want to give it a try. Major is afraid of guns (the item) and has generalized that to thunder and fireworks and gunshots. He was like Shadow and didn't care a bit about noises from my computer or tv but I used them anyway because I figure it's good to start with something that doesn't cause a reaction. I just played a bunch of gunshots and things while feeding him dinner for a while. He never seemed to really pay attention to it even when it was loud but it has made him less afraid of real gunshots and things so apparently it helped. When there is actually a storm or fireworks or my neighbors are shooting things randomly we go to my bedroom, turn on a ton of fans, put on his thundershirt, play some music and Major gets the most delicious kong-cicle I can make (stinky fish wet food with a bullystick frozen in the middle, mmmm) and then make it a special snuggle on the bed time. If there is a particularly big boom I act like its really awesome and give out extra treats. Just giving him someplace safe and happy to go has helped a lot with lessening the fear over time too.
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Jul 1, 2012 15:38
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Yeah he won't take any food whatsoever. But since he is slowly getting better, maybe I can start some CC when there's a very quiet storm rolling in. It's hard because sometimes he senses/hears it before I'm even remotely aware of it, and obviously fireworks are even more difficult. I'll look into those CDs or see if anyone in my training circle has one I can borrow. For now I think I'll just try getting him a dark, cozy crate and doing like you did with the computer noises. Can't hurt.
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Jul 1, 2012 16:14
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a life less posted:What sort of reward are you offering for successfully performing the behaviour? One way to approach it is to build more value for the reward through games. Is it a ball? A tug toy? Thanks for that link. One of the problems I'm having is that the only toy that he absolutely loves is also super flimsy and survives about 2-3 training sessions before it needs to be retired, and I train him pretty much daily. Since it's $8.99 that will get quite expensive if we keep it up. It's mostly the squeaker that makes him love it, it has a very distinctive sound that I haven't been able to find in any other toy so far, even though I walk around squeaking all the toys in the pet supply store like a madwoman. I think I may try that method with a more durable but less exciting toy to see if I can get him really into it. Basically what most of my training sessions look like is a "warmup" (usually while I'm waiting for my helper to arrive) of me throwing a ball for him and holding him until it stops moving, then letting him go get it. That gets him really amped up and then we do a few run aways, where my helper gets him excited then runs off squeaking his toy and calling his name, then hides (just steps behind a tree or something, just so he gets used to looking for people). I give a vocal command as I let go of the collar. His reward once he finds the person is "Yes!" said as soon as he arrives as a marker in place of a clicker, then a very exciting and fun play session. Raucous is a good word for it. It's also always his target that plays with him, not me, so he associates the reward with the person he finds. We always end the training well before he wants to stop. Today it took about 15-20 minutes from start to finish, and that included a lot of breaks for me to explain to my helper (my long-suffering mother this time) how I wanted things done. I've actually done two training sessions since that post, though, and I'm not sure what's changed except that he's suddenly seemed to really get into it. Before we were having a problem where he'd find me but not care too much about the toys or any food rewards and not even look for anyone else (which as you can imagine would be a problem in a search dog, though I'd be covered if I ever got lost), but now he's totally into it. Today we were just doing it in my backyard and he spent about 10 minutes searching the yard for his toys after we were done (he has normal toys that are lower value for him, while the toys he really gets amped up about are only brought out for training--he was looking for the reward toys). I jog him in the mornings to condition him and build up his endurance and we do the training in the evenings so he's had plenty of time to recover. I think he may have been adapting to the new schedule and just kind of tired out which is why he wasn't very interested for a bit. Riiseli posted:How is his recall? Pretty solid. The only time he won't come back to me is if he has a toy, in which case he'll run up to about 4 feet away from me then veer off and go lay 10 or 15 feet away and chew on his toy. He's pretty sure that counts as a recall and I can't seem to convince him that fetch really is a fun game.  So I guess that's a lot of words saying that I think my problem fixed itself, but I'm interested in any thoughts you all might have. I don't get to talk to many dog people in real life except the other people on the team. 2tomorrow fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Jul 2, 2012 |
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Jul 2, 2012 03:40
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2tomorrow posted:It's mostly the squeaker that makes him love it, it has a very distinctive sound that I haven't been able to find in any other toy so far, even though I walk around squeaking all the toys in the pet supply store like a madwoman. Would anyone be willing to help me out and record sound of their dog(s) playing/training/baying/howling/growling/screaming/etc? I need to proof Rho's startline sit stay for dog-induced distractions coming from behind him and since he takes even sounds coming from the tv very seriously, playing sounds from my laptop should help. Youtube would solve it otherwise, but I can't get online where we train agility. I think I'll need all kinds of sounds, calmer and as hyper as your dogs can get. The recordings can be long or short, it's all good as long as I can download the sound (or video for that matter) for later use. Thanks in advance!
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Jul 2, 2012 06:52
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Rixatrix posted:Would anyone be willing to help me out and record sound of their dog(s) playing/training/baying/howling/growling/screaming/etc? I can probably get a recording of Lola barkbarkbarking and screaming on my phone and send that, if that's any good? How would you want things sent, just a direct attachment through email?
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Jul 2, 2012 08:26
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Fraction posted:I can probably get a recording of Lola barkbarkbarking and screaming on my phone and send that, if that's any good? How would you want things sent, just a direct attachment through email?
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Jul 2, 2012 12:10
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Hi. I have a little issue with a new dog and hope that someone can help me out! I recently got a new 2 year old dog (I think it was described as a Brittany Spaniel) and have no idea how to train it. We got it from the Humane Society having been left there because his old owner lived in an apartment, had dementia and didn't take him out for exercise. We fully intend to get him out and about again, but he shows little interest in anything. The biggest problem we have is that he doesn't seem to like treats. We have tried various dog treats including Marrobones, training treats, chicken jerky and some others and we have even tried cooking up bacon for him. If the treats are just lying there, he might or might not eat them. If he has to work in the slightest (even taking from fingers) he doesn't bother ever. If we get him on his leash, he will walk with us but he doesn't like to run much, he doesn't like to fetch, he doesn't play with any toys... I am sure this is because he was cooped up in an apartment with someone who didn't do much with him. How can I go about reversing this behaviour if he doesn't seem to have anything he wants to work for? Any help would be appreciated. He is just lying around right now and in this nice weather, a two year old spaniel mix should want to be fetching things by the water, right? Yuncemil fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jul 2, 2012 |
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Jul 2, 2012 17:30
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How long have you had him? Usually dogs will seem less interested in things/more docile for the first month or two, then start to pick up speed. It's odd that he isn't even interested in bacon though - I can understand not liking dog biscuits (most are pretty bland/low value for a lot of dogs) but turning his nose up at bacon is weird. The only thing I can think of for that specifically is that he's being overfed, or even overfed on bulky, grain-high food.
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Jul 2, 2012 18:05
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Yuncemil posted:If we get him on his leash, he will walk with us but he doesn't like to run much, he doesn't like to fetch, he doesn't play with any toys... I am sure this is because he was cooped up in an apartment with someone who didn't do much with him. How can I go about reversing this behaviour if he doesn't seem to have anything he wants to work for?
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Jul 2, 2012 18:11
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Fraction posted:How long have you had him? Usually dogs will seem less interested in things/more docile for the first month or two, then start to pick up speed. It's odd that he isn't even interested in bacon though - I can understand not liking dog biscuits (most are pretty bland/low value for a lot of dogs) but turning his nose up at bacon is weird. The only thing I can think of for that specifically is that he's being overfed, or even overfed on bulky, grain-high food. We got him yesterday. I guess he was taken to the shelter Saturday night and we got him Sunday morning. He wouldn't even have had time to get bad habits from the shelter. He may or may not even have been fed there in that time. Also, we haven't tried him on those biscuits. They seem undesirable on every level. We have pretty much been giving him stuff with at least some level of meat inside.
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Jul 2, 2012 18:13
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Yuncemil posted:We got him yesterday. I guess he was taken to the shelter Saturday night and we got him Sunday morning. He wouldn't even have had time to get bad habits from the shelter. He may or may not even have been fed there in that time. He may just be really stressed from being in a new environment. Give it a week or two.
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Jul 2, 2012 19:18
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Rixatrix posted:I think I'll need all kinds of sounds, calmer and as hyper as your dogs can get. The recordings can be long or short, it's all good as long as I can download the sound (or video for that matter) for later use. Thanks in advance! I can get my dog to scream like a toller banshee.
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Jul 2, 2012 21:02
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Yuncemil posted:We got him yesterday. I guess he was taken to the shelter Saturday night and we got him Sunday morning. He wouldn't even have had time to get bad habits from the shelter. He may or may not even have been fed there in that time. I think you should give him time, and start with shorter walks in case he's out of shape. I say this because my first dog was a very out-of-shape dog who had been neglected, left out, not exercised by her previous owners, and it took her awhile to get back in shape. And even though owners were neglectful (they were friends of mine who had life things going on that made the dog the bottom priority) she missed them--I think for the rest of her life--and was kind of dispirited on account of that, I think. He may like treats better when he's not so stressed. Dogs are funny like that. About a year ago I had to put ointment in my dog's eye twice a day, and he hated it. Of course I was treating him like crazy, and he generally loves treats, but after a day and a half of the ointment, when I got out the treats he wouldn't take them. Because he knew.
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Jul 3, 2012 18:05
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Rixatrix posted:Get the squeaker from one of his fave toys after the toy is destroyed and stick it into a more durable toy. If you don't want to get crafty, just use one of those food-stuffable jackpot toys but instead of food, fill the pouch with squeakers. Kerfuffle fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jul 4, 2012 |
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Jul 4, 2012 05:24
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I have a redbone mix of some kind, about 7 months old, spayed. Here's a pic so we all know what we're dealing with: Bonnie  She's a former shelter inmate, some dickbag abandoned her (I think)- I've had her since the end of May and she's already gained 10-12 lbs. Anyway, we're staying with my parents for the next couple months. They have an 11 year old male chocolate lab. The dogs get along pretty well, but Bonnia seems to have jealousy issues/wants to destroy all of Potato's nice things. Basically, being a lab, he fixates on his ball. If I throw it and she's around, she'll run after him, nipping at him, and barking, and sometimes she'll bite at his legs/genitals or will mount him. For his part, he pretty much ignores her- he's pretty low energy except when there's a ball involved, and unless they're both grabbing onto the same toy, he really doesn't growl at her or otherwise correct her. I'd like to get her to chill out a little so I could throw a ball with both of them in the yard, and get her to stop nipping at him/his balls/humping him. Any thoughts?
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Jul 4, 2012 07:20
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Kerfuffle posted:I forgot the name of Super's youtube channel but there's plenty of barkbark on it. You can use listentoyoutube/file2hd or anything similar and yoink the audio off any video. However, if someone has access to very distinctive doggie sounds (e.g. the toller banshee), please upload a recording to Youtube and make me happy (and Rho a bit - but not too - uncomfortable). I'm fairly sure I should be able to make this work. Rho again spent an hour yesterday watching Animal Cops Houston with me (and by watching, I mean sitting three inches from the screen and occasionally growling or whining at the animals on the show).
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Jul 4, 2012 10:22
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Rixatrix posted:Thanks! Someone else pointed this out to me too. I had no idea there was software like that If you have netflix, you can watch DogTown, which is about an animal sanctuary in Utah and their work with adopting out special needs/reactive dogs. I used to watch it with Psyche and practice her listening to the dogs barking and seeing close ups of doggie faces. I'll try to have my camera around to catch one of her fits or maybe record her playing. I've been told she has a very startling bark by my trainer who jumps every freaking time she gets barked at.  Edit: Okay, I made a couple videos. Don't know if they'll help, but I've wanted to take more videos of her anyway! First is the Get the Hand game where she makes these demonic, very unladylike grunts. Second is us just teasing her. She didn't really want to play, so it looks all unstructured. Usually we would get down and wrestle with her and encourage better things than just jumping around, but this got more barking. I think I'm going to set up my tripod and try to catch her barking at the neighbors. If she really gets startled, she does a high pitched howl and then very sharp barks. Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Jul 4, 2012 |
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Jul 4, 2012 13:38
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Thanks Kiri Koli! I tried them right away and Rho was very very reactive to the second video, not so much the first. This is great, I can start out with the first one and progress to the more difficult one later! I can't help it but I find the idea of using goons' dogs as distraction kind of cute 
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Jul 4, 2012 20:48
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That's great, I'm glad they're helpful! We got out one of those large stuffed dogs today and put it waaay out in the yard to see if Psyche would react to it. She surely did, even though she saw it up close over a year ago and realized at the time that it's just a huge chew toy. It's good though, we can work on it for a while. I've been basically always using her muzzle lately in really touch situations so I can just rub her down until she stands still and gives me calming signals before I release the pressure by letting her walk away. The muzzle is essential due to all her redirecting and it's sooo helpful because I can just reach over and turn her head away when she stares (we now have a 1 second hard stare rule). She gets the picture to mind her own business pretty quickly and with a few approach and retreats, she stays thinking/calm and keeps herself in check and I can then up the criteria (decrease the distance or give her some freedom). Progress has been pretty steady and she's starting to be truly calm in situations with people. In our last training session, she didn't react to anything we did and we had the trainer crouching right in front of her. I think she could had handled being touched, she was so relaxed, but the trainer thought that was too big of a leap.
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Jul 4, 2012 21:51
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The Kentucky Humane Society (where I do my internship) now has a behavior helpline where people can call or email for advice about behavior issues, to help keep pets in their homes. I volunteered to be one of the caseworkers. We expect basic issues like mouthing, barking, housebreaking, etc. Any aggression cases are only to be answered by the certified KHS trainers (though I can take reactivity cases if I'm comfortable with it since I assisted in their Feisty Fido class). I love it because we can log on and pick and choose which cases we want to answer, by phone or email. I think it's a really great idea more areas should give a try and I hope it works out well.
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Jul 7, 2012 17:19
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Skizzles posted:The Kentucky Humane Society (where I do my internship) now has a behavior helpline where people can call or email for advice about behavior issues, to help keep pets in their homes. I volunteered to be one of the caseworkers. We expect basic issues like mouthing, barking, housebreaking, etc. Any aggression cases are only to be answered by the certified KHS trainers (though I can take reactivity cases if I'm comfortable with it since I assisted in their Feisty Fido class). I love it because we can log on and pick and choose which cases we want to answer, by phone or email. I think it's a really great idea more areas should give a try and I hope it works out well. That's really cool. My local humane society has a behavior helpline that sounds very similar and they've seen really great results from it. They also offer free training classes for anyone who adopts a dog, and very cheap ones for the general public. All positive methods and really successful--the biggest problem they're running into now is that there's too big of a waiting list so they have to try to figure out how to expand the program. I was talking with one of their trainers and she said they've noticed a significant decrease in pets returned for behavioral problems since launching these programs. I hope Kentucky's is as successful, though I'm sure it will be.  Good for you for volunteering.Rixatrix, the toy suggestion is such a simple thing that I never would have thought of. We have built a frankentoy for training and it is holding up really well so far. Thanks! 2tomorrow fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jul 7, 2012 |
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Jul 7, 2012 23:18
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I have a question and I don't really know where to ask. I adopted a dog 3 months ago. When I got her she was really calm. However, that was because she was really sick, so sick she did not have energy (note: I did not know this when I adopted her, although I wouldn't change anything, I just thought she might be a relaxed dog haha). After a lot of vet trips and medicine she got healthy (and energy) and that is when the problems started. Our house is set up with a big backyard and a dog door and we have another dog, a 7 year old hound dog who is pretty calm and never eats anything. My dog, Kima, and him get along really well. They love being around each other. However, when we leave Kima is a terrorist. Nothing is safe. We cleared off the counter in the kitchen so there was not anything for her to get, but she is a goddamn Houdini. At least once a week she figures out some maneuver to get something dangerous to eat. First she figured out one section of our fence was climbable (since replaced). Then she figured out how to open the door (since addressed) and so on. I can't trust her and have spent all weekend crate training her (shoutout to kikopup) for a temporary solution. However, the problem is no one is here during the day. My mom can let her out temporarily (to clear this up, I live with my brother but not my parents, they are across town) but the crate is not a long term solution, and to be honest I don't like the concept. We spent months looking for a house with a big fenced in back yard specifically so we could put a dog door in and let them run around during the day. She is OK in her crate for a few hours after the work I've done with her, but long term, I do not want it. If it has to be the crate, then so be it, but I am willing to try anything to keep it from being the crate. Now I know my dog has separation anxiety and that is why she freaks out and eats everything. I need to stop this now. I have googled and read stuff here about it and worked on it (like leaving and then coming right back, acting like it is no big deal when I leave/return) , and it is getting better, but she still eats stuff anytime she can get it when we leave. I can tell she is slowly getting more calm, for example she used to whine the second I closed the door, but now she doesn't, but still, progress is not fast enough. What kind of trainer do I need to look for? I might be wrong, but this seems like a situation beyond teaching sit/down/etc. We are taking a basic AKC good puppy class and I am going to talk to the instructor about this Monday, but I figured there might be other options. I know they have those boarding schools which will let you leave your dog for a month and "they come back trained," whatever that means. Do they have one of these where I can take her a couple of weeks and get this one issue resolved? I will drive anywhere within 200 miles of Raleigh, NC if I know the solution will work if that is the course I should take. Hell, for all I know these schools are a scam. Of if I need to hire a "behavior specialist" I will right away. Oh and I know exercising is good. Every morning we either run about a mile and a half and then walk some or walk at least 2 before I go to work. I'd do more but it is so hot even at 6am she gets really worn out (and I do too haha). Still, she gets at least 30 minutes of exercise in before I go to work, no exceptions. I have not failed to do this a single time since I got her. We also go for a walk almost every day after work, unless it is still 100. Even then I usually take her at night. But every single morning, no exception, we exercise. I also want to address some things. I have seen people get jumped on in this forum because they have dogs in less than ideal situations. I know it isn't ideal to leave the dog all day but she was going to get put down 100% if I did not take her. Basically, feel free to PM me and call me a lovely dog owner if you want, but please don't derail this thread. I also want to be clear I am totally dedicated to doing what I need to do to fix this. If I need to bring in professionals, no problem. If it will take an hour a day after work I will do it. And if the crate is it, then so be it. PS I also read about anxiety medicine for her and talked to the vet, but it sounds like a potential lifetime commitment and I'd prefer to try to fix this through training. PPS I know people like pictures, this is her the day I took her. edit sorry for the wall of text, this is stressing me out and I might have written a lot more than necessary.
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Jul 8, 2012 00:49
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First off, don't worry about anyone jumping on you. You seem to be doing everything right and we are always happy to help people who really want to help their pets. If you were asking for ways to beat your dog into submission or how to get rid of it then we might have issues Separation Anxiety and behavioral issues in general can take a really long time to treat. For example, it took my dog over 4 months to be comfortable in the car enough for me to even pull out of my driveway without him screaming nonstop. Not to scare you, just prepare yourself to do some homework every day for quite a while. Have you looked at the book Don't Leave Me? It's supposed to be a really good resource for SA, especially for people working on it without professional help. When looking for a trainer to help you (which would probably be a good idea) look for a behaviorist, either an animal behavior consultant or a veterinary behaviorist if you can afford one. They'll be able to lay out a plan for treating her SA and will be there for you if things get worse or something isn't working.
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Jul 8, 2012 02:17
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First off, I'd recommend ignoring anyone who says you can drop the dog off for a month and it will come back trained. I'm sure that's true, but she'll just fall into the same habits when she comes back. Dog training is as much (or more) about training the owner as it is about training the dog. My other big question is whether you are sure it is separation anxiety. That can often be blamed when actually the dog has just learned that counter surfing or getting into cabinets/over barriers will bring food. If that's the case with your dog, I haven't learned any tricks other than exercising the hell out of them and confining them to a safe place when you're gone. It doesn't have to be a crate, but a spare bedroom or something will work. I have two dogs like that, and have seen a lot of others. I truly believed my dogs had separation anxiety until I watched them on webcam and saw that they weren't all that nervous or upset as they were causing trouble, and I only did that after seeing Victoria Stilwell do it on "It's Me or the Dog" for that exact reason. How much exercise does she get? It's also true that a tired dog is a good dog. If she's bored and energetic, she'll be worse regardless of the cause. Anxiety is helped by exercise, and if she's just bored and getting into things obviously enough exercise and mental stimulation will help. Otherwise, I think talking to your obedience trainer will be the best thing. They know the dog and likely know other professionals in the area, so will be able to recommend someone they think will help. My suggestions are just very general observations and it is best to take her to a good trainer who can get to the root of your dog's individual situation.
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Jul 8, 2012 02:24
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2tomorrow posted:My other big question is whether you are sure it is separation anxiety. That can often be blamed when actually the dog has just learned that counter surfing or getting into cabinets/over barriers will bring food. Does this apply if it isn't food? She has only taken food off the counter when we were gone twice. Usually it is a couch cushion, or plastic, or hell anything she can find, but out of all the things she has destroyed it has only been food twice. I am pretty sure it is separation anxiety, I might be wrong but from what I understand it is. I was telling my dog trainer about it (before Kima was a full blown terrorist and I was as concerned as I am now) and she said it probably was too. The reason I am so concerned now is sooner or later she is going to ingest some metal or plastic and well, I don't want to think about it. We confined her to the kitchen and it usually works, but anytime we slip and leave anything out it is toast. And the definition of a "safe spot" is a moving goal post. It was the table or counter, then the counter, now the back of the counter, and who knows what is next. The top of the grill outside is no longer safe either. It has basically gotten to the point where it is not sustainable for us to keep everything away. 3 dudes living together do not keep their house in order enough for that, even if they mean too! Instant Jellyfish, I will look into that book and I am going to email some people near me from those links. Thanks! Part of me knows she is a puppy and these things happen and she will hopefully grow out of it, but I just want to do whatever to stop it as quickly as possible and before something happens to her health from eating something she shouldn't. I already had to deal with a massive sickness (vet told me 50% chance she might die at one point) and I don't want that again. Ribsauce fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jul 8, 2012 |
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Jul 8, 2012 17:50
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Ribsauce posted:Does this apply if it isn't food? She has only taken food off the counter when we were gone twice. Usually it is a couch cushion, or plastic, or hell anything she can find, but out of all the things she has destroyed it has only been food twice. Also, please never leave your dog to be trained by anyone else. There may be bad things happening when your back is turned no matter how reputable the trainer seems, and also you are the one who needs to learn to work with your dog. If someone else teaches your dog behaviors (no matter how skillfully they do it), they will disappear eventually because you will not know how to maintain them.
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Jul 8, 2012 18:17
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Hmm, when I am in the room and when I first leave Kima is pretty calm in the crate. However, I just found out after I leave she goes nuts, whines, tries to dig through the bottom, and then flipped over the crate with her in it! My brother's girlfriend was describing it to me, she said Kima goes insane. Now I am worried she will injure herself in the crate. Guess I need to totally dog proof the house, like even more so than already, until I figure this out. For exercise, in the morning it is already 80 degrees and we usually run ~2 miles then walk another (for 30 total min of exercise) or on alternating days we walk for 45 minutes. Every single morning. She looks exhausted after this. I provide her mental stimulation with training at night and usually a 20 minute or so walk (because it is still 95 degrees right now). The websites said you can use those toys with treats but I don't want her and Buddy brawling over the food in them. The dogs get along really well, but sometimes when the food comes out they get a little snappy. They are both strays and my brother personally saw Buddy fight over food with other dogs 3 or 4 times when he was the "parking lot dog" before he rescued him. I know you can try to eliminate this, but we just feed them at separate times and give them rawhides separately. They don't get at each other over toys or water, only food, and especially rawhides. They've never actually fought, but they do a pretty mean bark/growl combo when the food is out. Ribsauce fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jul 8, 2012 |
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Jul 8, 2012 20:48
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OK so I guess I have a question. Since I've had mice, I've been teaching Lola to be okay around them/not want to eat them. I haven't used any aversives beyond a couple of very low-key verbal corrections when she started getting a little too interested early on, but we ironed that out and she could be around the mice, no problem. Not so long ago I upped the stakes and started not just asking her to not get the mice when they're on me, but to not get them when they're on her.  She has, however, gotten more upset about the mice being out since then. She's not tried to eat them, but she'll give a very "upset" expression (and offers appeasement behaviours: ears back, crawling body language, flopping onto her side a lot). I'd quite like for her to not associate the mice with sad, unfun times, but I'm not sure how to get her to relax when they're around/hanging out. I could use food, but I'm wary of presenting food + mice too much, and I can't use toys because I don't want to escalate her arousal when around them. Any suggestions? I just want my pets to be bros 
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Jul 8, 2012 22:27
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edit because I took forever to post this: In case it wasn't clear, this is in response to Ribsauce. I did misunderstand your first post and thought she was specifically going after more-or-less edible things, which is why I mentioned that. As Rixatrix said though, it still could be motivated by something else. Even the attempt to dig out of her crate could be for other reasons. I don't know that much about SA though so I'll leave it there. Have you ever tried giving her a puzzle/food dispensing toy while she's in her crate during the day? If it is boredom that could help a great deal (or even with SA as a way to help her keep her mind off it), and if she's in her crate there's no risk of fighting over food. I think you're smart not to leave food toys around when the two dogs are together since there is a history of squabbling over it. How old is Kima? Do you know what breeds she is? The exercise program you describe doesn't seem like much at all to me, but I do have high-energy dogs so my perspective may be skewed. What you're doing I would see as the bare minimum that a healthy younger adult dog requires. You may also want to consider giving her a job to work on. It can be agility, a game like flyball, whatever, just something beyond basic obedience. I have a tendency to adopt neurotic strays and I've found that giving them a job is critical to them feeling comfortable being at home. It also builds trust between the dog and the handler, which may help Kima feel more secure and confident that you'll come back. I just want to say too that I really commend you for taking the time to figure this out, and it really sounds like you are doing everything you can. It's nice to see dogs adopted by people who are willing to at least try everything they can to work through those problems. I think shelter dogs and rescue cases are more prone to SA just because they have been left by their people in a very scary environment, but it is something that you can work through to at least find a manageable solution.
2tomorrow fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 8, 2012 |
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Jul 8, 2012 22:47
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Fraction: I don't want to be a downer, but you have a dog that is basically hardwired to see those animals as prey through centuries of selective breeding. It's great that you trained the dog not to attack the mice, but I feel like expecting them to be "friends" to the point where the dog is relaxed about one crawling all over her might be a bit unrealistic. edit: it probably doesn't help that the dog can sense your (very well-founded!!) anxiety at the interactions as well. Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 8, 2012 |
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Jul 8, 2012 22:47
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Topoisomerase posted:Fraction: I don't want to be a downer, but you have a dog that is basically hardwired to see those animals as prey through centuries of selective breeding. It's great that you trained the dog not to attack the mice, but I feel like expecting them to be "friends" to the point where the dog is relaxed about one crawling all over her might be a bit unrealistic. That's entirely true. Maybe the jump from 'don't eat the mice when they're crawling on me' to 'don't eat the mice when they're crawling on you' is just a little too taxing on her self control. If she can hang out on the couch with me when I have them out, that's all I really need anyway.
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Jul 8, 2012 22:50
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Topoisomerase posted:Fraction: I don't want to be a downer, but you have a dog that is basically hardwired to see those animals as prey through centuries of selective breeding. It's great that you trained the dog not to attack the mice, but I feel like expecting them to be "friends" to the point where the dog is relaxed about one crawling all over her might be a bit unrealistic. I have to agree with this. Expecting a dog who is bred to hunt rodents to be friends with them instead is just too much to ask. Training her to not attack the mice while you're directly supervising them is a lot, and frankly I'd be pretty proud of her if I were you. Prey drive can be incredibly strong to the point that you literally cannot train them out of it. It would be like expecting a young child with a legitimate case of ADHD to sit down and watch Doctor Zhivago. Just can't be done, no matter how much they try. It can be channeled (for example, my herding dogs have learned that it's okay to chase cattle and goats but not okay to chase horses) but it can't be gotten rid of. I also think it's unfair to expect Lola to tolerate being crawled on. If she doesn't like it, I think that's her right. It's not like it's necessary to her health or anything. Training her not to attack them right away is one thing (and a good one for your mouse's safety!), but I'd remove the mouse as soon as it tried to crawl on her and try to prevent that from happening as much as possible. edit: drat, I just can't keep up with PI today. Sorry for the redundant posting, your second post wasn't there when I opened the window to reply.
2tomorrow fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jul 8, 2012 |
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Jul 8, 2012 22:58
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Thanks for the reality check, guys  I'll definitely scale back the interactions. I am pleased that she is wiling to listen to me and not eat them, as her prey drive is pretty strong; she regularly chases birds, rabbits, etc, whilst screaming at the top of her yappy little lungs because she's so excited. That she can run after rabbits and then come home and not go crazy trying to get the mice is definitely good! Hopefully if I prevent the mice from getting too close (as defined by her) she'll stop seeing them as (potentially) aversive and we can hang out more again.
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Jul 8, 2012 23:39
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Fraction posted:Thanks for the reality check, guys Do you give her any outlet for the prey drive? It seems like your user name is familiar but I don't recall any details so sorry if this is stupid. I work with Australian Cattle Dogs and German Shepherds (well, a German Shepherd ) and the thing I've found with them is that they're impossible if I don't give them an outlet. The Shepherd especially would attempt to kill anything smaller than him (and he's 80+ pounds) until I got him into search and rescue training, which totally takes over his life. Since then he's amazingly not trying to eat cats anymore.The cattle dogs are the same. If I don't do herding work with them they'll just harass cats or other small animals or really anyone who is convenient until they get an outlet. Then once they do they're darlings again. Knowing the breed you own and adapting to the breed tendencies as well as individual preference is a huge thing.
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Jul 9, 2012 00:45
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2tomorrow posted:stuff First breed info. Best guess is she is not quite a year old (10 months?), maybe a German Shepard/Lab mix? I've heard different things from different people, that is my best guess assuming it is a 2 dog mix. She was found on the side of the road, no owner history obviously. I adopted her at probably 6-7 months. The good news is she shows no fear of humans or other dogs. She went through a brief period of aggressiveness towards random dogs (after her first month of no aggression towards them) on walks but the socialization at the class and with my friend's dogs has fixed that. She loves people, especially licking them (which means she is very submissive.) How much more exercise would you recommend? She runs 2 miles in the morning or walks 2 and gets a walk in the afternoon. Not to mention playing in the back yard all day. I have yet to crate her during the day. The first time I left her in the crate was last night while I was gone and she was going crazy the entire time. Apparently she did not quit trying to bust out, hell as I said she flipped it over while inside. Where do I learn about these games? I'm fine with playing fetch (we used to do this then she quit getting the ball  ) If I can do them in my backyard with just her that is fine, but I am not interested training her for any contests or anything. She is insanely fast and athletic though, especially her vertical leap. Thanks for the words, I will keep working on it. Tomorrow is class day so I can get some advice from the instructor. For now the plan is further dog proof the house since I am less worried with her in the yard and inside than in the crate losing her mind, flipping it over, headbutting the cage and so on. Hopefully she grows out of it soon.
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Jul 9, 2012 01:16
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Ribsauce posted:She loves people, especially licking them (which means she is very submissive.) I'm curious why you interpret the licking as submissive. In my experience, licking is more about 1) tasty things (salt on skin is apparently delicious to some dogs), 2) energy release, or 3) stress release. My dog is extremely anxious/reactive and she uses licking as a stress release/calming signal for herself and us. Of course, it depends on how the dog is presenting it. A dog that runs up and jumps/licks in excitement is probably just that, excited, but as you said submissive, my mind conjured the image of a dog licking hands obsessively while being greeted, completely focused on the licking and not looking around. That would say to me that the dog is stressed. Sorry if I'm way off. quote:
Have you tried a flirt pole? Apparently they can be quite exhausting. You can absolutely do mental exercises that prepare for things like agility in your backyard without competing. Kikopup has a lot of great videos on teaching tricks that are mentally stimulating, as a start. I'm working on this one. I'm also slowly going through the book Agility Right from the Start. My dog is nowhere near being able to do agility with other dogs around, but it has all the exercises to set up the foundations, which you can just use as mental stimulation. quote:I have yet to crate her during the day. The first time I left her in the crate was last night while I was gone and she was going crazy the entire time. Apparently she did not quit trying to bust out, hell as I said she flipped it over while inside. Where do I learn about these games? I'm fine with playing fetch (we used to do this then she quit getting the ball You may have to work her up to longer times in the crate. I would recommend playing crate games with her. Even if you don't plan on putting her in it often, it's nice to have a dog that's crate trained and likes it. Here's a video on crate games. Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 9, 2012 |
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Jul 9, 2012 02:39
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^^^^^^ We use a flirt pole with our dog (well, it's really just palm fronds from the back yard) and it totally drains our dog. Ten minutes of running and leaping in circles and our dog is comatose for hours afterwards. Way more tired than going for runs or chasing a ball. Alright, time for a big Sophie update. A lot of incoming  We've been working with a personal trainer for the last three weeks and have made some really good progress. We're really happy with the trainer. She's a positive reinforcement advocate, but also very practical and realistic about situations that Sophie may encounter. At a high overview, the trainer described Sophie as being relatively reactive towards things she was unsure of. She also said that Sophie didn't know how to deal with anxiety or stress, which is why it usually manifests as her getting more and more excited/aggressive. We also probably have some mild territorial issues to deal with re: downstairs dog. We also managed to confuse our trainer a bit with Sophie, since she displays really variable behavior towards other dogs. Generally:
We verified this dramatically when the trainer brought a dog with her to one session. We purposefully kept them apart and Sophie went nuts trying to get to the other dog. We tried disengaging whenever Sophie looked away (something our trainer has recommended for reactive/aggressive dogs). Sophie just got more amped up as we tried to leave, since we were getting further from the other dog. So we tried the opposite, letting Sophie move forward when she looked away or gave other calming signals. This worked until we got close to the other dog, when we apparently crossed a threshold and Sophie went back into a blind rage. The trainer said it looked like Sophie was more frustrated than aggressive, wanting to get closer and play with the other dog. But since she's reactive and somewhat scared of the situation (and working herself up), as we got closer her frustration turned into aggression. Soooo...the general advice was keep letting her interact with other dogs, try to "jolly" her through situations that may be borderline. Let her acclimate to dogs on other sides of fences, etc. We think it is partly because Sophie doesn't know how to play nicely, so most dog encounters eventually turn bad as Sophie pisses off the other dog. This in turn makes Sophie more reactive around other dogs, feeding the behavior. Right now we are working to keep dog interactions happy and short, before anything can go wrong. Sophie still has a blood feud with the downstairs dog. We are going to meet at a local dog park to see if neutral territory might help the situation. I'm expecting the worst but we'll see. In other news, trick and command training is going great. Sophie has a nice list of commands she (usually) responds to: sit, stay, down, drop it, wait (just learned this one - it's awesome!), shake, touch and watch and "go to your crate". I just taught her "close the door" the other day, which is really cute to watch. One of our big problem areas was barking at the neighbors. Last time I wrote in this thread, I had accidentally taught Sophie that bark == treat. We've made remarkable progress on that front. We tried time-outs in a dark closet, but that never really worked. From what we could tell, Sophie actually enjoyed going into the closet and it never seemed to stop her from barking to begin with. The trainer suggested we try a spray bottle, with the caveat that since Sophie enjoys rough play and a spray bottle may make the situation worse. She likes water too. To our pleasant surprise, she totally hates the spray bottle and the barking is pretty much done. Sophie will bark or get huffy at a noise, we'll say Quiet, and if she continues to bark she get's a spritz. She still get's huffy/growlly, which I assume means she is just suppressing her urge to bark (knowing water is coming). She also retreats to her crate now instead of barking. We are trying to give her treats when she is quiet now, so that we can try and make this a positive reinforcement instead of negative-spray-in-the-face reinforcement. Aaaand that's it. Taking care of a dog is exhausting!
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Jul 9, 2012 03:30
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2tomorrow posted:Do you give her any outlet for the prey drive? It seems like your user name is familiar but I don't recall any details so sorry if this is stupid. I work with Australian Cattle Dogs and German Shepherds (well, a German Shepherd I try to give her outlets as much as possible. I take her purposefully to rabbit-heavy areas a couple times a week at least so she can run screaming after them (though she's yet to actually catch one ). Each morning we do ~10-15 mins of indoor flirtpole, letting her catch and 'kill' the toy. Usually once a day at least she'll get an hour of outdoor football (chasing, mouthing, even sort of herding it back) and/or fetch, and then on top of that we go biking, usually once a day, for around an hour. It usually works out to a couple hours a day of exercise, which includes letting her get a thing (flirtpole) and chase a thing (ball, football, rabbits).Lola really, really loves biking with me now too, and since we started she's improved with other dogs. A good terrier is definitely a tired terrier.
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Jul 9, 2012 08:27
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Is there a way that I can make fetch more enjoyable for Stella? She seemed to love it when we first got her but now she seems really bored with it. She'll only go after a tennis ball once or twice, and if I throw a stick she'll get it but then wants me to chase her and try to get it from her. I'm afraid I may have poisoned the game by getting annoyed when she tried to play tug with the tennis ball. If I have treats in my pocket she'll fetch a couple more times but she gets distracted and forgets about the ball. We have a great backyard for fetch and it's a really good way to wear her out before work (although I'm going to look into this flirt pole idea) so I'd really like it if she enjoyed it again.
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Jul 9, 2012 14:29
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The hunting dog book I read would say she's burned out on retrieving, it might be complete bunk though. The idea is that, after you've taught her the mechanics, doing a retrieve should be a reward in itself and giving the dog unlimited retrieves will lead to the behaviour you're getting. Just some random thoughts while training my dog. - Don't do more than 5-10 retrieves in a session - Go back to the beginning, find a hallway and a hotdog and just do a few - Don't let her retrieve every one. Get a buddy or another dog to retrieve half of them. - Increase the challenge, water/high grass/different toys - You already know you shouldn't get annoyed but just end the game when that happens. Go inside and take a break to cool off. - Get a check cord - Random reinforcement, we gave treats every time, then 50% and now we're at about 25% for a really good one. - See if you can train her to stay until you tell her she can go retrieve, it builds up some anticipation
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Jul 9, 2012 15:00
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