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Well depends on how you use it. The scale of spellcasting's friendliness to martials goes like so: Optimized blasting - Completely unfriendly, if you do it right(usually requires 3.5 resources mind), you can completely obsolete martials by doling out enough irresistable damage to oneshot anything without resistance to that attack(e.g. simply getting enough cumulative damage to kill people even if they save for half). Save or Die(mostly Necromancy/Enchantment) - If it works, show-stealer. If it doesn't, it didn't contribute. Battlefield control(mostly Conjuration/Illusion) - Technically it supports martials, but it makes them feel a little like a mop up crew after you already stopped the enemy from doing anything of worth. Debuffing(mostly Necromancy/Transmutation/Conjuration) - It does help, but the really good ones leave you with crippled foes to mop up like BFC does. Buffing(Transmutation, pretty much) - Put it on your martials and watch them go to town. Most martial friendly. In PF its much harder to buff yourself into an annihilating monster in combat time anyway. Just lay down a Haste and watch them go to town.
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Jul 8, 2012 22:33
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Disintegrate is actually one of the better blasting spells, since the point of comparison is "can you eliminate an enemy from the board by casting this spell once?" For Fireball, the answer is usually "no" unless the enemy is trash (and thus not really a threat since low HP totals are usually paired with low attack and save bonuses), but disintegrate can be used to erase a low-HP/low-Fort enemy mage, lich or rogue or something because 2d6 damage per caster level (average 7) is enough to keep pace with enemies who aren't bags of HP.
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Jul 8, 2012 23:08
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It still has three layers of defense to deal with (to-hit, saves, hp) as opposed to one layer for a classic SoD.
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Jul 8, 2012 23:21
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:But Transmutation is the coolest school! For shame. (Also best for Monty Python newt jokes.) I guess I read a bit too much into your previous post - you sounded vaguely appalled at the possibility. Blasting with big numbers can be a lot of fun and is probably the most balanced way to play a wizard. Disintegrate is one of my favorite spells (despite not being especially powerful) simply because it lets me throw all the d6s (also rays are cool). It's especially fun if you manage to crit. Good luck surviving 30d6 if you fail that save. Plus it's one of the few damage spells that's also got some really nice utility in a pinch.
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Jul 9, 2012 04:31
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:But Transmutation is the coolest school! For shame. (Also best for Monty Python newt jokes.) I guess I read a bit too much into your previous post - you sounded vaguely appalled at the possibility. Blasting with big numbers can be a lot of fun and is probably the most balanced way to play a wizard. Disintegrate is one of my favorite spells (despite not being especially powerful) simply because it lets me throw all the d6s (also rays are cool). Like I said, it's his first character and I don't think he looked over the spell list fully to figure out what schools mattered. He wanted to learn Knock and that's transmutation, and he just said gently caress it rather than spend two slots casting it. Since he leveled and we're between books for a week or so, I told him he could change some of his known spells and prohibited schools if it didn't affect too much. Inverse Icarus fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jul 9, 2012 |
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Jul 9, 2012 06:28
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Stuff like Knock is probably better to have around on a wand or scroll anyway. Does he know about leaving slots open? It's both handy to know about and easy to miss.
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Jul 9, 2012 07:26
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:Stuff like Knock is probably better to have around on a wand or scroll anyway. Does he know about leaving slots open? It's both handy to know about and easy to miss. Yeah I threw him a scroll of knock last module, and he tried to learn it and failed the Spellcraft check  He knows about leaving slots open but hasn't done it yet. Like I said, he hasn't really thought about utility or control spells, he really just wants to see large numbers.
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Jul 9, 2012 07:36
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He took Toppling as a metamagic feat at third level, and he's successfully tripped several people with Magic Missile. I ruled that all of the missiles get a trip chance, and if he fires off his missiles at different people he can trip two dudes a round. He got a trip off on the BBEG of the chapter, which let the paladin and cleric easily hit him for some serious damage. I think it would also be a fun one to use on a rocky boat.
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Jul 9, 2012 07:37
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Danhenge posted:It's especially fun if you manage to crit. Good luck surviving 30d6 if you fail that save. If I ever played a long-time game, I would totally want to try Maximized Spell, Quickened Spell, Transmutation Spell Focus + Spell Perfection/Preferred Spell Disintegrate. 420 two maximized Disintegrates per turn errday.
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Jul 9, 2012 08:11
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SoDs are actually significantly more powerful in Pathfinder due to PF Persistent Spell Metamagic. While it's true that a failed SoD results in "nothing happened," you can rather easily put it together so that you never have to worry about that failure. That said, the two most "satisfying" wizard types for the whole party are probably blaster and buffer, with a side order of battlefield control
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Jul 9, 2012 10:20
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The White Dragon posted:If I ever played a long-time game, I would totally want to try Maximized Spell, Quickened Spell, Transmutation Spell Focus + Spell Perfection/Preferred Spell Disintegrate. 420 two maximized Disintegrates per turn errday. Not legal, unfortunately! Spell Perfection specifies it can't raise the level of the spell above 9 and that puts you at like 13
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Jul 9, 2012 15:20
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Danhenge posted:Not legal, unfortunately! Spell Perfection specifies it can't raise the level of the spell above 9 and that puts you at like 13 Should be possible with a (Regular) Rod of Quicken though, using Spell Perfection to Maximize and keep it at level 6.
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Jul 9, 2012 17:02
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grah posted:Should be possible with a (Regular) Rod of Quicken though, using Spell Perfection to Maximize and keep it at level 6. I may be in the position to fill the wizard role shortly in my slumbering tsar group, and I'm not really sure how to design him. We are now up to a fighter/cleric (levels in both on him, instead of paladin....), rogue, barb, and wiz (hopefully to be me). Any tips on designing him? We're level 10 now, and fight a lot of undead/evil/demon types, so i'm not sure which way to go. I know I don't want to be a blaster, but I feel like a large portion of spells that disable focus on will saves which are pretty high on demons. Anyways, any pointers are appreciated.
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Jul 9, 2012 19:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:SoDs are actually significantly more powerful in Pathfinder due to PF Persistent Spell Metamagic. While it's true that a failed SoD results in "nothing happened," you can rather easily put it together so that you never have to worry about that failure. I've tried to gently guide my brother into some of the buff spells, but a lot of the fun/core ones are Transmutation. Enlarge Person, all of the Bulls/Cats/Owls/etc. Again, a wand would easily solve his prohibited school conundrum, and casting Bull's Strength yourself isn't really any better than using a wand. 30 rounds vs 50 rounds at 5th level.
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Jul 9, 2012 19:25
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Nigulus Rex posted:I may be in the position to fill the wizard role shortly in my slumbering tsar group, and I'm not really sure how to design him. We are now up to a fighter/cleric (levels in both on him, instead of paladin....), rogue, barb, and wiz (hopefully to be me). Any tips on designing him? We're level 10 now, and fight a lot of undead/evil/demon types, so i'm not sure which way to go. I know I don't want to be a blaster, but I feel like a large portion of spells that disable focus on will saves which are pretty high on demons. The next character I plan to play as a PC is an Oracle, but just behind that in my "oh man oh man I want to play that" is a Wizard with the Conjuration Arcane School, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration You're starting at 10th level, so maybe it doesn't matter to you as much, but making summoning spells last longer is fantastic at early levels. Still, 15 rounds is better than 10 rounds, if the creature survives. Full-on Augument Summoning. I really like the Superior Summoning feat, but I've heard a lot of back-talk about it, and how you should generally always summon the stronger (higher level) monster whenever you can. However, Sometimes I'd rather have 1d3 Medium Earth Elementals instead of one Large one. Superior Summons means you'll get 1d3+1, or 1d4+2 if you summon two levels lower. If you wanted to test your DM, you could also try to use Empower Spell on that, preferably from a Rod, and get (1d4+2) x 1.5 of them, os anywhere from 4 to 9 of them. Sure, a Large Earth elemental is awesome, but 9 Small ones can really jam up a hallway and force an enemy to waste actions on them. And you can do all of that while flying and invisible. Or you know, just cast Glitterdust.
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Jul 9, 2012 19:34
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I seriously forgot that in one of the games I'm playing (that has been on hiatus for a solid five months), I'm playing a Druid. I might just do the summoner stuff on her and get it out of my system.
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Jul 9, 2012 19:36
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Inverse Icarus posted:I seriously forgot that in one of the games I'm playing (that has been on hiatus for a solid five months), I'm playing a Druid. I might just do the summoner stuff on her and get it out of my system. There was a cool 3.5 summoning variant that let you contact and summon specific creatures with your Summon Monster spells. Like instead of summoning "a quetzelcoatl" you summoned "Maogaladosh.". If you could travel to their home plane, you could give them items and when you summoned them, they'd already have them equipped. The closest thing in PF is probably the Summoner's Eidolon, but I always thought it was a cool thing.
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Jul 9, 2012 21:18
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Nigulus Rex posted:I may be in the position to fill the wizard role shortly in my slumbering tsar group, and I'm not really sure how to design him. We are now up to a fighter/cleric (levels in both on him, instead of paladin....), rogue, barb, and wiz (hopefully to be me). Any tips on designing him? We're level 10 now, and fight a lot of undead/evil/demon types, so i'm not sure which way to go. I know I don't want to be a blaster, but I feel like a large portion of spells that disable focus on will saves which are pretty high on demons. Second is to use unresisted spells. This isn't necessarily spells without a save, but spells which change the fight regardless of the save(e.g. Create Pit series generates an obstacle whether or not they fall int) and spells which affect the field rather than creatures(the Fog series for one). Third is variety in targeted saves. Every creature has a weak save type and your task is to be able to go for that weakness. Most undead/demons have mediocre Reflex, and undead have terrible Fort saves if you can get spells that affect objects. Have spells that go for all three saves, and especially spells which break stereotype(Fort spells that affect objects, Will spells that don't affect minds, Ref spells that don't do half damage on save, as creatures with immunity tend to have weak saves in that area when you do get around it.) Inverse Icarus posted:Full-on Augument Summoning. I really like the Superior Summoning feat, but I've heard a lot of back-talk about it, and how you should generally always summon the stronger (higher level) monster whenever you can. However, Sometimes I'd rather have 1d3 Medium Earth Elementals instead of one Large one. Superior Summons means you'll get 1d3+1, or 1d4+2 if you summon two levels lower. If you have Superior Summoning you can and should always summon 1d3+1 where possible, the math works out to bring their to-hit values on par...as long as you can be sure you'd get at least 2. Which Superior Summoning does, making it a change from gambling to break even, into a sure fire gamble(2 critters is about as good as one higher level, but the chance of getting 3 or 4 wins out).
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Jul 9, 2012 22:58
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Nigulus Rex posted:I may be in the position to fill the wizard role shortly in my slumbering tsar group, and I'm not really sure how to design him. We are now up to a fighter/cleric (levels in both on him, instead of paladin....), rogue, barb, and wiz (hopefully to be me). Any tips on designing him? We're level 10 now, and fight a lot of undead/evil/demon types, so i'm not sure which way to go. I know I don't want to be a blaster, but I feel like a large portion of spells that disable focus on will saves which are pretty high on demons. Here's just my go-to list of spells for the kind of lineup you're talking about, (going backwards, because high level spells are more exciting). This list is by no means exhaustive: 5th Wall of Force - Great for partitioning combats with big beefy attacking monsters that can't teleport, especially in enclosed spaces. Cut the fight in half to reduce the threat to the party. Overland Flight - Maybe not right away because at level 10 you haven't got that many 5th level slots to work with, but being able to fly all day is a BIG DEAL Wall of Stone - Same deal as Wall of Force for partitioning combats. It's more permanent but is also more easily destroyed by strong melee opponents. Not a bad choice for trapping casters because it'll gently caress up their ability to cast on you whereas Wall of Force a spellcaster could potentially summon poo poo on the other side of it (I think? I know spells can't pass through it, but that's not the same thing). 4th Greater Invisibility - Your rogue will LOVE LOVE LOVE you. Sneak attack all day every day against anything that doesn't see invisible! Wall of Ice/Wall of Fire - Same deal for partitioning combat, not as powerful as the above wall options but still plenty useful Solid Fog - This is pretty good against Zombies, since they can only take one action and they'll be moving at half speed. Again, just a general combat partitioner Black Tentacles - The old standby. These are GREAT for loving enemy spellcasters, because man good loving luck winning a grapple against something that's effectively a full BAB large creature. 3rd Haste - Never underestimate this! One more attack at your highest BAB is HUGE, the mobility it provides your party is a big deal, and that +1 to hit that stacks with everything is awesome. Slow - Pretty good against undead. Fly - Always good to be able to fly Halt Undead - Non intelligent undead DO NOT GET A SAVING THROW Displacement - Great buff for melee Heroism - Don't underestimate this spell. At your level a lesser rod of extend is pretty cheap, and you can give someone a decent buff for 200 minutes (just under three hours) which in many cases is the better part of your adventuring "day" Communal Resist Energy - I think this is a pathfinder spell? Seems like a pretty cool spell to meeeee! 2nd False Life - This is a really excellent spell, and is actually a great spell to empower because empower actually also works on the +10 part of the roll. So at an average roll of 15, you're looking at a 22 hitpoint buffer which is nothing to sneeze at! Lesser rods of empower are not that expensive at your level! Command Undead - Mindless undead GET NO SAVE again. If you're likely to run into any evil clerics you might want to order them to run off a cliff or something after the combat is over, or maybe to attack each other and then you can mop it up. See Invisibility - Always make sure you have at least a scroll of this, maybe several Web, Glitterdust Endure Elements, Communal looks cool. Nice to have in your book and use when you need it. Ok, I'm a little bored of this exercise now but I hope this was at all helpful! Also, just a general sort of tip - at your level pearls of power and lesser rods of extend can turn 1st and 2nd level spells with durations of 10/min level into essentially all day spells, so be on the lookout for stuff like that. If you have craft wondrous item and have the time to do so, even better!
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Jul 10, 2012 00:09
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Danhenge posted:Black Tentacles - The old standby. These are GREAT for loving enemy spellcasters, because man good loving luck winning a grapple against something that's effectively a full BAB large creature. Such a shame Spell Specialization requires Spell Focus, and how you'd pretty much never get Spell Focus in Conjuration. Full BAB +2! Other fun ideas the guy I'm gonna co-DM with if we can get our group together has thrown at me include "Enervation Machine Gun Sorcerer" with stuff like Magic Lineage and Thanatopic Spell, or "Counterspell rear end in a top hat" where you sacrifice two levels of caster progression to pick up the Scholar's Twice Ready (ready two actions at once reacting to different contingencies and take the first one that comes up).
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Jul 10, 2012 03:41
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The White Dragon posted:Such a shame Spell Specialization requires Spell Focus, and how you'd pretty much never get Spell Focus in Conjuration. Full BAB +2! But Spell Focus Conjuration leads to Augmented Summoning as well! And there are a handful of Conjuration spells with saves, including all of the pit spells, as well as quite a few acid damage spells, some of which are very nasty as far as blasting goes. (And while blasting may often be sub-optimal, the truly huge damage some of the acid spells do can be terrifyingly effective, especially as some of the spells do half their damage again automatically on a subsequent round.)
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Jul 10, 2012 04:08
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Yeah, the +DC on conjuration might not be as directly spectacular as it would be on necromancy and enchantment, but they're no slouches either. Though, speaking of Pit spells I wonder what they'd look like if extended all the way to 9th. With accommodations for things like teleporting/flying creatures to be pitted. Extradimensional vortex maybe?
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Jul 10, 2012 04:40
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veekie posted:Yeah, the +DC on conjuration might not be as directly spectacular as it would be on necromancy and enchantment, but they're no slouches either. I tried really hard to get my DM to make Entangle a conjuration spell, to make it like I summoned magical plants instead of modifying existing grass or whatever That alone would probably be enough for Spell Focus (Conjuration) to be more than just a tax on my Druid.
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Jul 10, 2012 04:44
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Oh, the fourth player that's joining our group sent me a message, he's going to make a Bard/Monk. Eager to see what he comes up with, and how low his to-hit will be.
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Jul 10, 2012 05:14
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Inverse Icarus posted:Oh, the fourth player that's joining our group sent me a message, he's going to make a Bard/Monk. I'd be more eager to start a pool with the other players for how many rounds of combat he survives. Or how many rounds until the player realizes the character is utterly worthless and has him suicide or just spontaneously combust.
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Jul 10, 2012 06:09
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Inverse Icarus posted:Oh, the fourth player that's joining our group sent me a message, he's going to make a Bard/Monk. That's about the MADdest multiclass you can get. I know your players aren't big on optimal design, but this guy sounds like he's optimizing for incompetence.
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Jul 10, 2012 06:42
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There are ways to make that work, but odds are anyone who can figure out how to make it work wouldn't be trying it.
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Jul 10, 2012 06:48
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Cool, finally a character worth taking a 12 in every stat for!!
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Jul 10, 2012 07:14
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I believe thats one of the builds that giving straight 20s, and having the level up stat bonus doubled and applied to every stat at once...wouldn't really help all that much.
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Jul 10, 2012 08:24
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Danhenge posted:Good spell suggestions. At 3rd level, I also love Stinking Cloud. It can incapacitate most of an encounter and then get blown away with a Gust of Wind once everything inside it is nauseated and essentially unable to defend itself. Persistent Spell makes it pretty great.
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Jul 10, 2012 14:38
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GaryLeeLoveBuckets posted:At 3rd level, I also love Stinking Cloud. It can incapacitate most of an encounter and then get blown away with a Gust of Wind once everything inside it is nauseated and essentially unable to defend itself. Persistent Spell makes it pretty great. Cloudkill is another pretty good cloud spell at 5th, however with a melee heavy party it's not always as friendly to rack, especially if the players aren't patient!
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Jul 10, 2012 15:55
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:That's about the MADdest multiclass you can get. I know your players aren't big on optimal design, but this guy sounds like he's optimizing for incompetence. Don't know that acronym, my brain keeps parsing it as "Mutually Assured Destruction", but I'm pretty sure it's not a good thing. This would be that guys second character ever, his only other guy being a level 3 Ranger in that game I mentioned that's been on haitus for 5 months. He's going to jump in as a level 5 character. I mentioned the current module concept to him, and gave him a brief overview of the previous 2 books, and he said his concept is a "hand to hand combat sailor with bard-buffing abilities." His friend, the veteran in our group, is trying to get him to play something a little saner, but I've always let people play what they wanted. There will be plenty of time to play super-optimized Barbarians or save-or-die Wizards. Their first characters are likely to be terrible anyway with the myriad of options players have with class-specific abilities like Rogue talents, spells known, not to mention feats. There are way too many ways for a player to end up with a mediocre character, statistically, that new players will probably fall into anyway. Let them just play a concept, and let them learn that it doesn't work if it doesn't work. The veteran is trying to get him to be a Fighter or Barb mixed in with Rogue, saying he can take Improved Unarmed Strike or just wear gauntlets. I don't think that dealing 1d3 damage all the time is really going to be all that fun. I mentioned the Lesser Beast Totem, which would give him 2 claws for 1d6 while raging, And if he happens to end up following that path to the RAGEPOUNCE then good for him.
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Jul 10, 2012 18:54
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Tell him, "Barbarian until you get pounce," and then advise him to Bard into Dragon Disciple. He'll get his Bard magic--just a little less often, but it's a fuckin' Bard, who gives a poo poo--and he'll get claws that keep improving the more he levels in DD. Houserule it so he gets the 11th level claws (+1d6 energy damage) at DD 10.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:03
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Inverse Icarus posted:Don't know that acronym, my brain keeps parsing it as "Mutually Assured Destruction", but I'm pretty sure it's not a good thing. MAD in this case is Multiple Ability(Score) Dependency. Refers to classes that need many good stats to function properly. Common victims are Monk and Paladin.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:07
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Inverse Icarus posted:The veteran is trying to get him to be a Fighter or Barb mixed in with Rogue, saying he can take Improved Unarmed Strike or just wear gauntlets. I don't think that dealing 1d3 damage all the time is really going to be all that fun. I mentioned the Lesser Beast Totem, which would give him 2 claws for 1d6 while raging, And if he happens to end up following that path to the RAGEPOUNCE then good for him. Straight Beast Barbarian works out pretty well for a brawler, if you reskin the claws.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:07
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LongDarkNight posted:MAD in this case is Multiple Ability(Score) Dependency. Refers to classes that need many good stats to function properly. Common victims are Monk and Paladin. I played a Paladin in 3.5. I feel this in my bones.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:08
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Inverse Icarus posted:I played a Paladin in 3.5. I feel this in my bones. I seriously can't believe it whenever I see the Paladin in my group's Wisdom score. He's corrected me several times when I've said that Paladins cast off of Wisdom. "How did you roll so badly on that Perception check? Oh, right, 10 WIS and no ranks."
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Jul 10, 2012 19:09
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veekie posted:Straight Beast Barbarian works out pretty well for a brawler, if you reskin the claws. I think we'll probably do that, and instead of claws his fists will turn to stone or grow barnacles or something. Barb 4 / Bard 1 would be pretty sweet, sing a little bit and then punch some fuckers out. If he took Lingering Performance as a feat and Moment of Clarity as a Rage Power, he could even keep his song going through a rage, but that's quite an investment, and wasted actions in combat. Is there anything else that lets a Bard Inspire Courage through a Rage? The White Dragon posted:Tell him, "Barbarian until you get pounce," and then advise him to Bard into Dragon Disciple. He'll get his Bard magic--just a little less often, but it's a fuckin' Bard, who gives a poo poo--and he'll get claws that keep improving the more he levels in DD. I don't want to railroad him like that, or even suggest that pounce is as amazing as it is. I betcha Dragon Disciple would be up his alley, though. When ti comes to requirements, like Dragon Disciple's "5 Ranks of Knowledge (Arcana)", can that be fufilled as you take the level? Can you take a level of Dragon Disciple at 5th level, if you also take a rank of Knowledge (Arcana) then, or do you have to wait until you're 6th level?
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Jul 10, 2012 19:14
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PrCs are almost always taken on your 6th level.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:19
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veekie posted:PrCs are almost always taken on your 6th level. So for say an Arcane Archer, that required BAB +6, the earliest you could take it is 8th?
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Jul 10, 2012 19:24
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