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Fluffy Bunnies posted:Pet safety restraints are very serious and obviously car accidents are very serious, but the way that dog stuffed animal ragdolls in slow motion kept cracking me up. I feel terrible. Don't feel terrible, it made me laugh too. I was thinking about getting one of these, but now I'm not sure what to do! Also I saw your email Fluffy, replied to it.
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Jul 11, 2012 06:05
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Bash Ironfist posted:Don't feel terrible, it made me laugh too. Get Bergan.
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Jul 11, 2012 06:14
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Rumor is that the first video is a bergan and the 4th is a kurgo. I'm sure some clever internet detective will figure it out. The 4th doesn't look anything like the kurgo I've got, but maybe they make multiple kinds of car harnesses.
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Jul 11, 2012 12:04
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I never got around to reading up on the Save Lennox thing (I am doing so now so I can actually understand what all went down) but it is confirmed that Lennox has been euthanized. Anyone have any good links explaining everything that happened? Edit: The comments on these news articles break my mind. One person posted a long rant in all caps, ending with "THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!" What America are you living in? cryingscarf fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 15:00
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cryingscarf posted:I never got around to reading up on the Save Lennox thing (I am doing so now so I can actually understand what all went down) but it is confirmed that Lennox has been euthanized. Anyone have any good links explaining everything that happened? The quickest summary I can throw out is that the owners were far from stellar, but Lennox didn't deserve to die over it either. Who's surprised though? Because I'm sure not. Poor dog. This is such poo poo. 
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Jul 11, 2012 15:17
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I have a Kurgo for Eva and it looks pretty much just the fourth one. Skizzles posted:ATTN bully breed people: is there anything on this page (or the entire site, for that matter) you think should be changed or added? For the APBT, SBT and Amstaff descriptions the coat colors should exclude merle. All eye colors are OK though for APBT and presumably the Amstaff as well. Blue eyes often show up in dogs with all white or mostly white heads. It might be a show disqualification but it's fairly common. These descriptions pretty much follow the show standard but there are many dogs of the breed that don't meet the standard. All breeds can have any type of natural ear but for SBTs and AMstaffs prick and full drop are show disqualifications. I would add to the What is a Bully Breed section that they are typically dogs with Bulldog or Mastiff ancestry.
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Jul 11, 2012 15:29
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Fluffy Bunnies posted:The quickest summary I can throw out is that the owners were far from stellar, but Lennox didn't deserve to die over it either. Who's surprised though? Because I'm sure not. Poor dog. This is such poo poo. I think I've posted on this before- I have some personal connections to the case that I don't want to get into, but pretty much. The hysteria here about pits was mad, and our BSL is profoundly uncool. However, the owners had an alleged history of being allegedly incorrigible alleged 'urban revival' dog-fighters and were allegedly sufficiently unsure of Lennox's alleged temperament allegedly not to walk him unmuzzled. Allegedly. It's a lovely situation but the owners knew exactly what they were getting into because they'd been prosecuted under the same BSL in the past- once a dog has been identified as possessing the breed characteristics of a pit, it's goodnight. They knew that, and chose to take the risk. Currently trying not to rage-sperg on Facebook as everyone in Belfast goes 'OH NO LENNOX' having been the exact same loving people who've been screaming 'BAN THESE DEVIL DOGS' every time some poor abused fucker nails a child because the dog-fighters here stopped giving a gently caress about temperament and started encouraging HA.
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Jul 11, 2012 15:31
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I always thought their 'BUT HE'S A STAFF/LAB MIX  ' thing was ridiculous.Controversial maybe, but while I think the dangerous dogs act should be relaxed over here (temperament should absolutely be taken into account in these cases, and the conditions the council keep seized dogs in is awful), I *don't* think keeping pit bulls should be completely legalised. The reason is that there is really no culture of responsible pit ownership here, and 99.99% of people who would ever own one are 1) dog fighters or 2) people who keep them as penis extensions and encourage HA. Especially in Ireland.
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Jul 11, 2012 15:54
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Thanks, SuperTwo!notsoape posted:I always thought their 'BUT HE'S A STAFF/LAB MIX I'm pretty sure they went with American Bulldog/Lab mix.  But whatever. It's sad that the Belfast City Council were being stubborn children about it and that he had to die when he did nothing wrong. Did they even do a behavior eval on him? If his temperament truly was dangerous and the owners were screwing him up, then fine, but I don't know if they did anything to verify any of that.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:54
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The whole thing was shoddily handled. There were multiple evals by people who were qualified trainers saying that he was harmeless. The city council then asked a dog catcher (who was a proponent of BSL and had no behavioral training and was not a trained evaluator and worked for the city) to evaluate the dog. He claimed the dog was aggressive and dangerous, but given his involvement in the entire matter he's not entirely above suspicion. Again, I reiterate my usual refrain on BSL and this sort of thing: gently caress the nanny state.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:59
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Skizzles posted:ATTN bully breed people: is there anything on this page (or the entire site, for that matter) you think should be changed or added? Looking at this, why does the "Do you have a bully breed" section include mastiffs? I have always been under the impression that the bully breeds were APBTs, Amstaffs, Staffies, and Bull Terriers, questionably American Bulldogs, and even more questionably, things like American Bullies. Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, Dogos, etc are molossers, not bully breeds. And the list doesn't include Bull Terriers at all.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:25
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The behavioral stuff was a smokescreen, though. It doesn't matter if a pit bull in Northern Ireland is the best dog ever, its existence in the province is illegal and it cannot be exported. It can only be put down. The owners knew that. Literally hundreds of Americans are appearing on every Facebook page to do with the city and spewing the most incredibly violent revenge fantasies against everyone who lives in Belfast. Makes a change from exporting weaponry for us to kill each other with, I suppose. Filboid Studge fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 17:26
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There was a hilarious page encouraging people to 'boycott Belfast' 
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Jul 11, 2012 17:38
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notsoape posted:I always thought their 'BUT HE'S A STAFF/LAB MIX
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Jul 11, 2012 17:38
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This is last page (and I laughed, too) but why is the stuffed dog thing's chest covered with a mosaic...? 
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Jul 11, 2012 17:39
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Azrael Alexander posted:There are probably plenty of people who would like to be a responsible pit bull owner who simply can't. I have never encountered one. And it is possible to own a pit bull in England at least, you just have to neuter and muzzle the dog when it is outdoors.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:43
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notsoape posted:I have never encountered one. If you own a pit in England, does it have to be muzzled on private property, or just in public? Or when it's outside in general?
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Jul 11, 2012 17:51
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notsoape posted:I have never encountered one. Is it not illegal to import pit bulls here though? (I'd own a pit bull in a heart beat if it wasn't for the risk of it being seized.) E: Quite a lot of people see staffies as status/tough dogs anyway. Pibbles probably wouldn't even have the 'it's all in how you raise 'em!' defence that people give staffies, as there isn't the (recent) history of people owning pits. Fraction fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 17:58
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Why do we need to encourage people to own them, though? The only people breeding are dog fighters. We already have a big problem with staffies in shelters, why add pits to the mix? This isn't like the US, where there are millions of pit owners rightly wanting fair treatment for their pet dogs. quote:No person shall— That's the DDA. Honestly, I don't think it's that unreasonable.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:59
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Fraction posted:Is it not illegal to import pit bulls here though? Yup, also to breed. There really are very few around outside of dog fighting/badger baiting circles, but if a person did acquire one somehow, they'd need to stick to the DDA.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:01
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Malachite_Dragon posted:This is last page (and I laughed, too) but why is the stuffed dog thing's chest covered with a mosaic...? Probably has a logo of some sort on the chest strap of the restraints?
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Jul 11, 2012 18:01
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Filboid Studge posted:The behavioral stuff was a smokescreen, though. It doesn't matter if a pit bull in Northern Ireland is the best dog ever, its existence in the province is illegal and it cannot be exported. It can only be put down. The owners knew that. Who gives a poo poo if its a smoke screen? BSL is stupid (and not exactly a great law) and is designed by people too unimaginative and afraid to figure out actual solutions to dog fighting/children getting bitten/blue hippos eating babies other than to say "all dogs like X are bad (because this is my opinion) and we should kill them all". The owners should have been careful not to have a dog that looked like a pit because apparently that was sufficient grounds for a dog to be euthanized. But then again since people are apparently unable to tell the difference between a pit, boxer, mastiff mixes, etc. (I've even had my ACD mix called a pit before, which was a real head scratcher) maybe we shouldn't just base what is or isn't a pit worthy of destruction off of someone's observation. Honestly given how loving rude the city of Belfast's employees have been to people willing to offer them an out of a lovely situation they made themselves, and how draconian this whole thing appears, I'm not surprised (especially the part where evaluators saw sores on the dog, and that he was kept in inhumane conditions but whatever right?). Do you honestly believe that the state should be this involved in someone's life on top of all this other egregious poo poo? Its hosed up.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:12
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Azrael Alexander posted:Looking at this, why does the "Do you have a bully breed" section include mastiffs? I have always been under the impression that the bully breeds were APBTs, Amstaffs, Staffies, and Bull Terriers, questionably American Bulldogs, and even more questionably, things like American Bullies. Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, Dogos, etc are molossers, not bully breeds. And the list doesn't include Bull Terriers at all. Bully Breed is really, really vague I don't really think there's a set definition. I've heard it used to refer to anything and everything even vaguely bulldog looking. I agree it shouldn't include Molossers but they're usually lumped in.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:13
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notsoape posted:We already have a big problem with staffies in shelters, why add pits to the mix? What happened to Lennox shouldn't have happened. They had a perfectly viable solution with re-homing him, and the simple fact that it is illegal to transport a pit bull type dog in Ireland shouldn't have mattered, those kinds of laws can be bent in situations like this. And it didn't seem to matter here, anyway - the reason given for why the proposition to re-home Lennox was denied was because he was "dangerous" and that would simply be passing the danger onto someone else. None of it made any sense from anything other than a "Pit Bulls are evil, kill them" standpoint. For that reason alone there needs to be a lot more leniency in these breed specific laws and I feel that a breed of dog shouldn't be outlawed simply because stupid people like to do stupid things with them. If you want to own a Pit Bull responsibly, the fact that other people aren't responsible shouldn't keep you from doing that. That's what BSL is in the US - responsible owners being punished for the acts of irresponsible ones. Say, if an illegal dog like Lennox was lost or abandoned and ended up in the care of a responsible owner, he should be allowed to continue to live with that owner; perhaps under certain restrictions if it would make the government feel better, but the whole concept of banning a dog breed is silly and ultimately useless. It hasn't stopped dog fighters and thugs from keeping illegal pits; why should it stop someone who might honestly want one as a pet? I'm not saying that it would be a good idea to go and start exporting pits to the UK en masse, but less restrictions so that the breed was not considered illegal and could be transported into the country legally would be a step in the right direction.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:57
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Azrael Alexander posted:why should it stop someone who might honestly want one as a pet? Because there's a point, in relaxing the laws, at which you'd end up doing more harm than good. That said, I do think they should be relaxed somewhat - as I explained above.
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Jul 11, 2012 19:05
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Does anyone have any sources about Lennox's owners being "less than stellar?" I'd like to find out more on that. As for the people shouting "BOYCOTT BELFAST!!!" I'm pretty sure most of those people never have or will have anything at all to do with Belfast, so uh... good... luck? Passion is great, but when it overrides reason it's incredibly irritating, imho.Azrael Alexander posted:Looking at this, why does the "Do you have a bully breed" section include mastiffs? I have always been under the impression that the bully breeds were APBTs, Amstaffs, Staffies, and Bull Terriers, questionably American Bulldogs, and even more questionably, things like American Bullies. Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, Dogos, etc are molossers, not bully breeds. And the list doesn't include Bull Terriers at all. I'm not sure why, I'm not the one who wrote it. I know bullies are frequently mixed with mastiffs, so maybe that's why she felt the need to include them? I was going to add Bull Terriers in there, though. But in my experience Presas/Corsos/Dogos are often caught up in the bully discrimination just because they kind of look bully-esque. Like SuperTwo said, "bully" is incredibly vague. SCBB mainly focuses on APBTs, obviously, but we educate about all the breeds that get swept up in this mess too which is why I guess she went with "bully buddies" instead of "pittie pals" or something. I think I might throw in a snippet about American Bullies and Shorty Bulls just as a "these are so so so so SO not APBTs" disclaimer. If anyone has info regarding those "breeds" they feel should be added, even if it's a big spergy post, please fire away. Skizzles fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 19:28
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notsoape posted:Because there's a point, in relaxing the laws, at which you'd end up doing more harm than good. That said, I do think they should be relaxed somewhat - as I explained above. How and why? Do you really think that chavs and poors with dogs that you don't like are so terrifying and dangerous? I mean for gently caress's sake, its not like taking away or banning pitbulls is punishing the people who own them. They'll move on to other dogs. Dogs lose with BSL.
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Jul 11, 2012 19:28
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"its not like taking away or banning pitbulls is punishing the people who own them. They'll move on to other dogs." So you think that the pitbulls owned by dog fighters should never be seized? 'Kay. As for ~chavs and poors~, I actually think that the classism and racism associated with pitbull rhetoric is disgusting, but thanks anyway. No middle-class people own pitbulls here, the good owners I was talking about are all "poor", and financial status has nothing to do with how good or bad a dog owner you are. However, men are men, and you only have to read a few lurcher and 'irish staff' websites to see them jizzing about their ~guard dogs~ (pitbulls), brock/billy/badger dogs (pitbull mixes) and deer dogs (pitbull mixes again). Maybe you think dog fighting, guard pitbulls and badger baiting are awesome hobbies; I don't. There was a BBC documentary a while back claiming that, in Northern Ireland, you are never more than 15 minutes away from pitbulls who are being used for dog fighting. The vast, vast majority of pits in the UK and Ireland are being used for dog fighting, guarding and badger baiting; relaxing the laws significantly would result in less legal precedent for police officers to seize dogs who are being used in this way. Why is it so difficult to understand that situations in Europe =/= situations in America?
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Jul 11, 2012 19:46
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6jIJz93J28&feature=related Watch this documentary. There are some awesome dog owners there. There are some lovely ones. A fairly imposed DDA would protect the awesome dog owners, while punishing the lovely ones.
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Jul 11, 2012 19:57
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notsoape posted:"its not like taking away or banning pitbulls is punishing the people who own them. They'll move on to other dogs." Yeah I definitely believe dog fighting is great and no one should be punished for it ever. I didn't realize that I felt that way until you clarified that saying "they'll move on to other dogs" meant that. Why do you think no middle class people own pits (other than the illegality, which is in reality a very small barrier). But more seriously, if the activity is illegal, then why can't you seize the dogs since they are being used for illegal activity? Is that not possible? If you use a gun in some illegal activity, it can be seized, right? Its not really that difficult to see the distinction. I get the distinction between the USA and other places. I actually spent a fair amount of my adolescence in Europe (Germany and England to be specific) and I get that everything isn't the same as America. When I went to school in England, my English classmates would talk poo poo about scalls and chavs on council housing estates and their dogs (given the descriptions, they were staffies and bully type dogs). As much as in America there's a lot of classicism relating to the owners of and misunderstanding of bully dogs, I saw just as much of it in England. Dog fighting (and cock fighting) are problems here and sure, maybe if we just made nationwide BSL, seized all pit bulls and euthed them, we'd no longer have pitbulls being used for dog fighting. Notice how that just moves it on to something else. Another kind of dog could be used as a fighting dog/ status symbol. Nothing is fixed or changed, but thank god we got rid of the pit bulls.
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Jul 11, 2012 20:03
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So I actually just read about the Lennox deal last night, since FB was going crazy. I was really saddened by it, since they seized a 'lab/ambull' mix for looking like a pit. Is there an ounce of truth to it? Sure it looks like a pit, but they really seemed to have the proof that he wasnt one (DNA test, despite yea they are wonky) and I figured they knew the parents or whatever. If it truly was a pit, then... Im still very sad for the dog having to spend that time being held, only to be put to sleep... but I'm very less sorry for the owners. And Im unsure about the whole temperament test thing too? Did they just outright lie about him being unsafe and thats reason for euthing it vs relocating it as an exception?
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Jul 11, 2012 20:05
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My dog is laying under my bed. He just farted loud enough that I could hear it, then he tried to crawl away from the fart. Just something in case this whole pitty thing has got you guys down.
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Jul 11, 2012 20:11
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quote:But more seriously, if the activity is illegal, then why can't you seize the dogs since they are being used for illegal activity? Is that not possible? If you use a gun in some illegal activity, it can be seized, right? It's not that simple, anyone who's worked in animal control will tell you that it's difficult to make arrests and seizures of fighters and dogs used in dog fighting based on circumstantial evidence alone. You have to have the law behind you. In some places, unless you basically catch the fighters in the middle of a match, you don't have grounds to seize dogs. (Handguns are also illegal here, but let's not go there). In the UK, pits cannot legally be bred for fighting, which is an awesome thing. I do agree that importation restrictions should be lifted, but I also think that all pit bulls in the UK should be neutered. I'm NOT saying that happy, well cared for, appropriately managed dogs should be seized, I'm saying that I'm all for ownership of pitbulls being controlled and regulated in this country because the proportion of abusive owners:good owners is hugely disproportional. quote:Its not really that difficult to see the distinction. I get the distinction between the USA and other places. I actually spent a fair amount of my adolescence in Europe (Germany and England to be specific) and I get that everything isn't the same as America. When I went to school in England, my English classmates would talk poo poo about scalls and chavs on council housing estates and their dogs (given the descriptions, they were staffies and bully type dogs). As much as in America there's a lot of classicism relating to the owners of and misunderstanding of bully dogs, I saw just as much of it in England. Dog fighting (and cock fighting) are problems here and sure, maybe if we just made nationwide BSL, seized all pit bulls and euthed them, we'd no longer have pitbulls being used for dog fighting. Notice how that just moves it on to something else. Another kind of dog could be used as a fighting dog/ status symbol. Nothing is fixed or changed, but thank god we got rid of the pit bulls. Of course there's classism in the UK, it would be extremely to suggest otherwise. However, there's a difference between staffies and pitbulls. People in the UK don't keep staffies for dog fighting, deer hunting or as attack dogs; they do keep pitbulls that way. It's NOT like pitbulls are outright banned - they have to be neutered, insured and registered (not such a big deal), muzzled in public (kinda dumb) and not stray from the owner's premises (very dumb, because accidents happen). The law has good points and bad points, but I think abolishing it completely from the UK would be dumb and counterproductive. Amend it, sure; poo poo like the Dempsey situation should never be allowed to happen again.
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Jul 11, 2012 20:21
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notsoape posted:It's not that simple, anyone who's worked in animal control will tell you that it's difficult to make arrests and seizures of fighters and dogs used in dog fighting based on circumstantial evidence alone. You have to have the law behind you. In some places, unless you basically catch the fighters in the middle of a match, you don't have grounds to seize dogs. (Handguns are also illegal here, but let's not go there). In the UK, pits cannot legally be bred for fighting, which is an awesome thing. I do agree that importation restrictions should be lifted, but I also think that all pit bulls in the UK should be neutered. I mean, I certainly agree that its difficult to seize these dogs, but what if the information they have is just rumors and allegations? There are balances that need to be found in stopping dog fighting, protecting animal welfare and seizing people's dogs just because they look a certain way or someone's claimed that they were involved in fighting. Stings and undercover operations would probably help with this but its cheaper (and more convenient!) not to do them, especially if dog fighting is so prevalent. At the end of the day, I just really strongly object to and indeed reject the idea that dogs need to be euthed just because of their breed (and in this case I guess because of the perception that the dog was dangerous). I mean, I guess I still find it excessive to neuter all pit types dog, but I guess that's a more reasonable way to handle it (if and only if the alternative is just to euth the dog). And yeah no one is going to sick a staffy on a deer, but my point more was that I am sure there is some other, game, possibly tough looking dog that people who are ill intentioned could adapt to their purposes. Owners and poorly behaved/dangerous dogs (although arguably that's also the owner's fault) should be targeted rather than taking a myopic view of the issue and what should/will happen if you "solve" it. The way that the family has been treated is just the poo poo icing on this cake, and its clear from the beginning that the council had it in for the dog. These people could be repulsive scum and it would still upset me that they've been treated the way they have. I mean, they might not even get the dog's body to bury (and given that people saw that the dog was covered in sores, I imagine that's part of the reason for not returning the corpse, to cover up neglect of the dog).
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Jul 11, 2012 21:07
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Fraction posted:That would be a pretty big whippet. Are whippets more common in your area or something? No idea. Whippets usually max at 30-40 pounds so it's pretty hilarious to me.
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Jul 11, 2012 21:50
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actionjackson posted:No idea. Whippets usually max at 30-40 pounds so it's pretty hilarious to me. The first time I saw a Whippet I thought it was just a baby Greyhound. 
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Jul 11, 2012 21:53
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Bash Ironfist posted:The first time I saw a Whippet I thought it was just a baby Greyhound. What's funny is that greyhound puppies really look nothing like adult greyhounds. They look more like an adult terrier of some kind.
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Jul 11, 2012 21:56
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notsoape posted:It's not that simple, anyone who's worked in animal control will tell you that it's difficult to make arrests and seizures of fighters and dogs used in dog fighting based on circumstantial evidence alone. You have to have the law behind you. In some places, unless you basically catch the fighters in the middle of a match, you don't have grounds to seize dogs. This is true of Animal Control in the US, too. A lot of dogs are seized under hoarding/animal limit laws rather than fighting laws because it's easier to get them that way. All the Americans raging about this dog are holding the Belfast AC to an insanely high standard.  Expecting ACOs to handle this like diplomats instead of like people who have limited time and resources who sometimes have to make quick decisions about which animals get to live and which ones die is nuts.
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Jul 12, 2012 00:09
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demozthenes posted:This is true of Animal Control in the US, too. A lot of dogs are seized under hoarding/animal limit laws rather than fighting laws because it's easier to get them that way. The issue is less with AC and more with the law, the city council and the way this was carried out. Maybe some people are mad at AC, but that's pointless really.
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Jul 12, 2012 01:25
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I've been seeing a lot of PI regulars in GWS lately and I totally wanna bring http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3495384 to you guys' attention 'cuz you guys should totally stop being shy and try for a prize 
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Jul 12, 2012 01:42
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