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Politicalrancor posted:I knew it was a really bad idea to check this thread. It would be super neat if it were possible to have a discussion on these forums ever where it didn't eventually devolve into both sides taking it to the absolute extremes. Saying comics shouldn't have any subjects that are off limits isn't the same as saying rape is supercool. None of the stuff in this thread is bordering on the men's rights reddit bullshit that some of the posts in this thread seem to be aimed at. In Talking Funny they discuss whether comics should have topics that are off limits. Heck Louis even specifically talks about a bit he did about rape. The consensus on that show was that nothing should be off limits (Chris Rock said he would never out someone as homosexual in a bit I believe but that's it) and I think their opinions on comedy really matter. When I was 19 I probably would have said something like "if you don't want to be offended don't go see Dane Cook and Daniel Tosh/heckle a comic," and felt like this woman overreacted. But that's because at 19 I was a horrible misogynist and didn't know it. Truth be told, there's no situation where a person should have loving gang rape wished upon them (that includes all those HILARIOUS jokes about prison rape every time someone with a high profile gets sentenced to jail time). Having said that, if your goal is to educate people on misogyny then please pick your spots better because you're not doing any loving favours by implying anyone who thinks comics should have carte blanche is a misogynistic rape apologist. You're just going to put people on the defensive and make it impossible to get through to them.
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Jul 12, 2012 10:03
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Sporadic posted:posts Sporadic, you have either missed the point of every post you've quoted so far, or you've posted some variation of "X comic is okay with rape jokes, so what's the problem" which, big surprise, is not the point.
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Jul 12, 2012 10:17
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Politicalrancor posted:I knew it was a really bad idea to check this thread. . Chromatic fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2012 10:18
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Chromatic posted:I myself was sexually assaulted/molested several times as a child(I've only told one other person about it) and don't react out of anger at molestation jokes. Example being that I've heard comics touch on(har har) the Sandusky case and have laughed at some of it. Part of it is I think that dark comedy is actually a source of comfort and laughing at it kind of neutralizes/remedies the pain that I got over and the weirdness of it I still feel today. It's difficult to explain but it feels like it gives me a little power back. Also, I know that when comedians make jokes like that, I know they're not personally making fun of my situation. This and this. You said it better. I almost brought it up, but then almost didn't-- I was also sexually assaulted as a child, but I still don't get offended by those jokes. I don't take it personally. I know the comedians don't intend it personally. They're loving jokes. They're not glorifying the subject at hand. Laughing at those subjects is a way to take the power away from them, especially when it comes to people like myself, and you, who have been the recipients of and endured the horrific acts. Chromatic posted:I do get a little pissed off when someone(you and maybe 1-2 others in this thread) comes along and flat-out tells me I'm a bad person for finding humor in serious and disturbing topics. Who the gently caress are you to tell me I'm awful in what I can and can't find funny? Nobody should ever blame someone for not having the same sense of humor I do on sensitive subjects, but there is 2 sides to every debate and both of them can be just as valid. Exclamation mark. escape artist fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 14:55
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Wow, this has turned into quite a discussion that's a bit better than what I've seen on Twitter. Just separate from everything, when I have been debating with myself, the one question I come up with is "Does anybody REALLY endorse rape?" Like, is anybody actually pro-rape? I would argue no, other than psychopaths, so coming from that reasoning, he told the joke in jest and not from a place revealing dark parts of his personality. This also sets it apart from the Michael Richard incident because I think some people DO support racism and its tenets. BUT. Tosh is not a great comedian (in my opinion) AND telling somebody to get raped is hurtful and makes you look bad. When on stage, I can only imagine the stress that comes with it and where he was coming from when somebody in the crowd interrupts what he is doing. On the other hand, she is right to be offended given her background and her feelings so I am not offended about that. My problem is that I keep coming back to the same debate I started with being nobody seems to be completely right or wrong and I don't know what I would do. It's a pretty weird thing to come up and has raised hackles all over the place. I can only say that if I heard something that offended me, I would probably leave, maybe say something to the management, and then send a Twitter DM or letter to the comic's publicist or something like that to let them know how I feel. I honestly don't know what can be done because even though Tosh has apologized to her, there are still tens of thousands of people on both sides invalidating everything and taking the debate all over the place. At least tomorrow is Friday.
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Jul 12, 2012 16:47
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Little Blue Couch posted:Sporadic, you have either missed the point of every post you've quoted so far, or you've posted some variation of "X comic is okay with rape jokes, so what's the problem" which, big surprise, is not the point. How does this come across as "X comic is okay with rape jokes, so what's the problem"? Sporadic posted:It's up to the entertainer to decide whether they wants to walk out on the tight rope.
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Jul 12, 2012 16:49
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synertia posted:
People support rape all the time. Prison rape is constantly supported as a deterrent to crime (which it does not do.) People really do think that the clothing a woman wears can influence a rapist to rape her. That she somehow asked for it and deserved it. Getting a woman hammered and then loving her when she can barely speak, let alone consent is widely accepted as normal behavior. I would love to see how detached and respectful of the arts of comedy some of you goony fucks would be if it was your daughter or sister or wife that was threatened with gang rape becaus she hurt a comedians feelings by interrupting his unfunny rape jokes.
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Jul 12, 2012 17:04
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I would love to see how detached and respectful of the arts of comedy some of you goony fucks would be if it was your daughter or sister or wife that was threatened with gang rape becaus she hurt a comedians feelings by interrupting his unfunny rape jokes. Because she was literally threatened with gang rape, right? Daniel Tosh was soliciting the formation of a posse to sexually assault her during his comedy performance. Please decree what topics comedians are and are not allowed to joke about. Is racism ok? How about suicide, drugs, bad driving, cancer, broken families, being fat, death, communicable illness, domestic abuse, violent crime, religion, or corrupt governance? All of those are serious societal issues that have severe impacts on millions of peoples' lives around the world, just like rape. You tell me which ones are ok.
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Jul 12, 2012 17:19
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XK posted:Because she was literally threatened with gang rape, right? Daniel Tosh was soliciting the formation of a posse to sexually assault her during his comedy performance. They can joke about whatever they want, and other people can call them out when it goes from gallows humor to tasteless schlock as they did to Richards. But you keep defending unfunny rape jokes by saying other things are bad too as though that makes it ok.
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Jul 12, 2012 17:24
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synertia posted:BUT. Tosh is not a great comedian (in my opinion) AND telling somebody to get raped is hurtful and makes you look bad. When on stage, I can only imagine the stress that comes with it and where he was coming from when somebody in the crowd interrupts what he is doing. On the other hand, she is right to be offended given her background and her feelings so I am not offended about that. Did he? Do you know that he did? Right now all we have is 2nd hand stories about what happened. Misogynysquad is on the case, but I don't consider the initial blog report to be anything concrete, the blogger has certainly gained a ton from all the attention that has been received. At the same time, the club manager isn't going to throw Tosh under the bus. When Oswalt sperged out on the guy filming, we had a bunch of immediate twitter sources, and that was a small room that wasn't expecting him. This was probably a pretty big show, and there was nothing on twitter. That leads me to believe that the audience overall didn't think too much of it. I dunno this debate is silly and it comes up in every SA thread now. Comedians say offensive poo poo. Sometimes the ones that say offensive poo poo in some areas also say some great stuff that needs to be said in other areas. It comes from the same place a lot of the time, though I'm not a Tosh fan so wouldn't give him the Hicks Award. The important thing to me is that the audience isn't blindsided. There are crass comedians like Tosh who style their act or tv show on making fun of people and saying blunt or crazy things, but you know what you are getting with them. If Gaffigan makes a rape comment I would agree with someone being outraged, but if it's Tosh then what ticket did you think you were buying? He just made fun of the dude who probably broke his collarbone falling off a diving board, listen to Brian Regan if you want something different, he's funnier.
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Jul 12, 2012 17:27
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XK posted:Because she was literally threatened with gang rape, right? Daniel Tosh was soliciting the formation of a posse to sexually assault her during his comedy performance. This isn't even about that incident anymore. Hell, the way she told the story might have been complete bullshit for pageviews. Now this discussion is about one side saying comics should have carte blanche (and therefore saying rape jokes are okay) and the other side saying they shouldn't. I'm fairly certain it's come up here ten billion times before and always ends up being people screaming free-speech and others saying that thinking rape jokes can be acceptable is the same as being a rapeyguy. We're past the point where anyone is going to be able to learn or grow from this argument which is unfortunate because that opportunity is the only loving reason to have these kinds of discussions.
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Jul 12, 2012 17:34
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I wish the argument of "you know the ticket you're buying when you go to their show." This wasn't a Daniel Tosh show. It was a showcase show, with many comics on the show. People like Tosh and Cook probably just dropped in and the owner/host put them on. People shouldn't heckle the comic, just like you shouldn't sneeze in someone's face. It's rude and disruptive. And comics can talk about whatever they want, but sometimes they will cross a line from being funny to just plain insulting/threatening/etc and people have every right to call them out on it. Comics make their careers out of their words. Their words, just like everyone else's, have value. A big difference is a comic puts their's on display to (hopefully) many many many people. An intelligent person understands that if they start talking about a subject our culture looks at as sensitive, there is a chance they will have to deal with blowback if someone feels they cross a line. Ass Catchcum fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 17:39
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No one has ever changed their mind on the internet, have they? It just feels good to voice your opinion and let some steam out. 
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Jul 12, 2012 17:39
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You can think something is horrible and still laugh at it, and it doesn't make you a bad person. And i am also more offended by murder than rape, and I don't understand how people are not. But I'm not a church, so my morals and thoughts are my own and I don't like to force them on others. I know everyone thinks they're important these days, but surprise! You're not special and you only think the way you do because of genetics and chance. It's not because you're better than anyone. Was anyone else annoyed that Gaffigan put his special on netflix?
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Jul 12, 2012 19:46
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Ariza posted:Was anyone else annoyed that Gaffigan put his special on netflix?
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Jul 12, 2012 20:58
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Ariza posted:Was anyone else annoyed that Gaffigan put his special on netflix? I paid for tickets to the showing where that special was taped, but I didn't get offended when the special went on sale for 10% of what I paid.
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Jul 12, 2012 21:20
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Maarak posted:I paid for tickets to the showing where that special was taped, but I didn't get offended when the special went on sale for 10% of what I paid. Did you watch it on a TV in a room with a bunch of people? If not, I'm not sure I understand your point. I'd love to see him live though. I've only been to a handful of live shows and they were all people I'd never heard of. It was still so much better in person. That could have been the booze though.
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Jul 12, 2012 21:32
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Chromatic posted:Secondly, I think when it comes to comedians and regular people there should be different standards applied. Absolutely nothing should be off the table for a comedian for constructing humor. Nothing. It's an art form like anything else creating something from nothing. You may despise me for saying this but I've heard a few rape jokes that I've laughed my rear end off at, and several more that just made me cringe in a bad way. To me, it's all about delivery, construction of the joke itself, and realizing that most comedy is all about exaggeration of the material. This sums it up better than I could ever put it. Most of the venom here seems so reactionary to me, but then I see so much of it and I wonder if I've been living in a twilight zone my entire life. I can't beleive there's this much vitriol towards the concept of rape jokes, and that there are people that are saying you should be able to heckle someone during their act and not deserve swift embarassing retribution for being the rear end in a top hat that you are. SA never stops continuously astounding me, and that's what makes it so entertaining sometimes. The levels that this forum have gone too, and the sudden complete 180 gets me everytime. It really is a microcosm of society. I guess someplace in my brain I always see SA members as more than just what's out in the world and thats where my mistake is. Comfortador fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 21:44
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Ariza posted:Was anyone else annoyed that Gaffigan put his special on netflix? Right before I finally got around to buying it I decided I wanted to re-watch some of his earlier stuff and searched his name on Netflix and Mr. Universe came up. I'm sure the money he got from netflix more than makes up for not getting my five dollars though.
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Jul 12, 2012 21:51
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DannoMack posted:Right before I finally got around to buying it I decided I wanted to re-watch some of his earlier stuff and searched his name on Netflix and Mr. Universe came up. I'm sure the money he got from netflix more than makes up for not getting my five dollars though. I don't even find him very funny, but I wanted to award all of them trying this method of distribution because it fits into my $25 a month entertainment budget better than a $10 audio only experience. I'm not upset because I would pay for it again, just annoyed.
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Jul 12, 2012 22:12
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Eltoasto posted:Did he? Do you know that he did? Right now all we have is 2nd hand stories about what happened Ah. Sorry, you're absolutely right. I meant to mention the second hand thing for the incident in particular. I was just talking about thinking of the incident as a thought exercise taking everything at face value. I have joked about it with friends but not gotten into a heavy discourse about the incident. Unrelated, I did see YouTube footage of Gaffigan threatening to kill a heckler once. Literally "murder" him in the parking lot. And I AM NOT relating this to Tosh in ANY WAY. Just interesting, never seen him curse or say stuff like that, probably early in his career.
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Jul 12, 2012 22:19
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29ArdxWYBGQ here's a decent rape joke. note who's making it.
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Jul 12, 2012 22:24
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synertia posted:Unrelated, I did see YouTube footage of Gaffigan threatening to kill a heckler once. Literally "murder" him in the parking lot. And I AM NOT relating this to Tosh in ANY WAY. Just interesting, never seen him curse or say stuff like that, probably early in his career. Gaffigan cursed all the time until like 2002.
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Jul 12, 2012 22:46
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Gaffigan cursed all the time until like 2002. I just saw his special on CC before then so I had no idea he was doing it so long. The change works well for him.
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Jul 13, 2012 00:16
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Politicalrancor posted:
Politicalrancor posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29ArdxWYBGQ I'm pretty confused, is there some kind of spread sheet that I can check to clarify when and when its not appropriate to laugh at a rape joke?
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Jul 13, 2012 00:26
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TheAbortionator posted:I'm pretty confused, is there some kind of spread sheet that I can check to clarify when and when its not appropriate to laugh at a rape joke? You see only women can joke about regular rape and men are the only ones who can talk about prison rape. Don't make a gay joke in with the prison rape joke though that would be homophobic. Unless they're gay then it's cool.
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Jul 13, 2012 01:09
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drat, this has always been my favorite sketch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKE9W0O8bX8 Guess I better go call my mom and apologize for being a raging misogynist.
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Jul 13, 2012 01:20
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CommunistMojo posted:You see only women can joke about regular rape and men are the only ones who can talk about prison rape. Don't make a gay joke in with the prison rape joke though that would be homophobic. Unless they're gay then it's cool. It's good that someone finally came in with such a cogent and thoughtful summary of what he imagines someone's opinion might be, somewhere. How is it possible that so many people hear "hey rape is a sensitive subject that requires deft handling in comedy" and immediately lash out like they're being loving brutally oppressed. Christ alive. Augh anyway. Mr. Universe was kinda weak, I thought, but the bit about Subway was so, so good. But what is it with Gaffigan and sea mammals?
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Jul 13, 2012 01:45
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TheAbortionator posted:I'm pretty confused, is there some kind of spread sheet that I can check to clarify when and when its not appropriate to laugh at a rape joke? Laugh whenever you want, but if you are the guy who laughs at unclever and uncreative "lol rape is hilarious" type poo poo, then we can all call you an idiot. Rape jokes are like racist jokes, there are very few that are going to really be funny, and the rest are the kind of thing Carlos Mencia made a career out of. You can love Carlos, but we can all call you stupid. Rape jokes are lazy and dumb, like Tosh's response to the heckler was. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jul 13, 2012 |
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Jul 13, 2012 02:03
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Little Blue Couch posted:It's good that someone finally came in with such a cogent and thoughtful summary of what he imagines someone's opinion might be, somewhere. How is it possible that so many people hear "hey rape is a sensitive subject that requires deft handling in comedy" and immediately lash out like they're being loving brutally oppressed. Christ alive. Where did he express anything close to rape being a sensitive subject? He made a blanket statement that all rape jokes are horrible and unfunny then posted a link to one he suddenly finds appropriate. No poo poo it's a sensitive subject and takes some skill to make a good joke about. Seriously read Political's post and tell me how he thinks that 8 minute rape joke is ok other than a woman is telling it. Politicalrancor posted:I knew it was a really bad idea to check this thread.
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Jul 13, 2012 02:12
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Carlos Mencia and Dave Chappelle both make frequent jokes regarding race, but Mencia's stuff is widely seen as racist while Chappelle's is mocking racists and racism. American culture's issues with rape and misogyny are still largely unchallenged, so jokes that talk about rape have to be very clear in their intent, well written, artfully delivered, or better yet all of the above. Assuming the blogger's account of Tosh's act is accurate, he blundered and made an unfunny unintentionally threatening joke. If the account is inaccurate, it's still an issue worthy of discussion given the shockingly blunt defense of Tosh from other comics and people in general.
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Jul 13, 2012 02:18
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Little Blue Couch posted:Augh anyway. Mr. Universe was kinda weak, I thought, but the bit about Subway was so, so good. But what is it with Gaffigan and sea mammals? I'm glad it seems like other people think Mr. Universe wasn't strong. I've been withholding my opinion on it because I barely laughed the whole time and I figured it just must have been me in the wrong frame of mind because Gaffigan is always so solid. I just didn't think it was very good.
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Jul 13, 2012 02:26
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If this is the reaction a Daniel Tosh rape joke gets, then I think I realize why Frankie Boyle doesn't tour North America.
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Jul 13, 2012 03:18
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TheAbortionator posted:drat, this has always been my favorite sketch. This is not at all what people are talking about.
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Jul 13, 2012 03:24
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escape artist posted:This and this. You said it better. I almost brought it up, but then almost didn't-- I was also sexually assaulted as a child, but I still don't get offended by those jokes. I don't take it personally. I know the comedians don't intend it personally. They're loving jokes. They're not glorifying the subject at hand. Laughing at those subjects is a way to take the power away from them, especially when it comes to people like myself, and you, who have been the recipients of and endured the horrific acts. Right on, brother. I also think it's important for people like Politicalrancor or anyone else to note that a decent chunk of dark comedians have had pretty horrible upbringings or traumatic experiences in their youth and comedy is a coping mechanism for them(and us and the people like us). Here's just a few examples that I've got just off the top of my head... Jim Florentine explaining his molestation as a child: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gQLXxylTk0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvIygKWbecY Jim Jefferies talks about being molested by a scoutmaster and explaning it to his dad(it's the 2nd segment and starts at 11 minutes in): http://www.freejohnnydare.com/fjd/2009/09/interview-jim-jeffries-9-23-09 Bill Burr almost breaking down into tears describing how his father used to treat him as a kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebE4BSpBijI That's just the audio I've heard. I remember reading from Doug Stanhope's mom explaining that he had a lovely home life growing up. His mom and dad used to fight and scream at each other constantly to the point that at dinner, Doug would eat for about 5 minutes before saying his stomach hurt and he wanted to go lie down. She said Doug did that every night but she knew he didn't have stomach problems, he was just miserable because his parents hated each other. Joe Rogan barely talks about his time with his stepdad but he makes it sound like it was a toxic environment as well. The only thing he brings up is that once he saw his step-dad pick up his step-sister by her hair and throw her back into the house. That's some heavy poo poo. Politicalrancor posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29ArdxWYBGQ Cool. So only women can joke about rape? I thought the clip was ok but she's not really my style. Also, I love the fact that you first just came in here, making a bunch of lovely cluster bomb statements about how we're all horrible people, then proceed to ignore a few well thought out, extremely personal rebukes about how a lot of us use this kind of poo poo as coping mechanism. But hey, do go on thinking you're morally superior and we're just "shitlords". It suits you.
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Jul 13, 2012 03:28
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I wish someone would make one of these for rape jokes. http://www.ebogjonson.com/archives/specials/should_i_use_blackface.htm
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Jul 13, 2012 03:29
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Laugh whenever you want, but if you are the guy who laughs at unclever and uncreative "lol rape is hilarious" type poo poo, then we can all call you an idiot. Rape jokes are like racist jokes, there are very few that are going to really be funny, and the rest are the kind of thing Carlos Mencia made a career out of. You can love Carlos, but we can all call you stupid. You are welcome to say what ever you want about my intelligence just please have the courtesy to wait until after the show to do it. And its interesting that you mention Carlos Mencia because I think Carlos Mencia is a racist stealing hack. Having said that I also think Joe Rogan was a dickhead for interupting his show because without a doubt some people in the audience were really looking forward to seeing that racist hack and paid money to do so. Maarak posted:Carlos Mencia and Dave Chappelle both make frequent jokes regarding race, but Mencia's stuff is widely seen as racist while Chappelle's is mocking racists and racism. I actually agree with alot of what you are saying, but I do think problems arise when we start asking who gets to be the judge of the intent, whats well written and whats artfully delivered. I've been told that the Mr.Show clip I posted earlier is misogynistic, and I remember the first time I heard the words "rape culture" was in reference to it. Everyone is going to have a different standard of what is tasteful and what isn't. And for the record I think what Tosh said was pretty terrible.
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Jul 13, 2012 04:25
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TheAbortionator posted:I actually agree with alot of what you are saying, but I do think problems arise when we start asking who gets to be the judge of the intent, whats well written and whats artfully delivered. I think everyone should be their own judge of art, but at the same time there are readings and interpretations that are better than others. Which is why it's important to treat comedy seriously and have open discussion, as no one person is going to be right about everything.
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Jul 13, 2012 05:22
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Rape jokes perpetuate rape culture; the same way that sexist or racist jokes perpetuate sexism/racism (and this has actually been studied) I know that lots of male comedians have defended their use of rape jokes or "offending people". But similarly it is the audience's right to react and call said comedians and their supporters on their hateful nonsense.
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Jul 13, 2012 06:49
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Aisha posted:I know that lots of male comedians have defended their use of rape jokes or "offending people". But similarly it is the audience's right to react and call said comedians and their supporters on their hateful nonsense. So female comedians doing it is cool got it.
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Jul 13, 2012 07:01
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