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Let's talk about recessed pavement markings. Pavement markings don't last long in northern climes, primarily because they get wrecked by plows every winter. On our freeways, painted markings last a few months, epoxy lasts 1-2 years, and thermoplastic lasts 3-4. Unfortunately, the pavement has to be hot and thick to use thermoplastic, since it needs to have enough latent heat to melt it and absorb the plastic. This leaves us with epoxy on most freeways, now that we're doing so many ultrathin overlays. Let's look at two different ways to do recessed pavement markings. The first set of pictures is from Massachusetts.  The grooves are about half an inch thick; each layer of epoxy is maybe 1/16 of an inch.  Everything is milled out with a rumble strip cutter, and from the looks of it, epoxy's poured in by the bucketful.  Four layers of epoxy fills up half of the depth, making the grooves almost imperceptible when you're driving over.  Words and arrows are done in the same way, which leads to sloppy results.  For the shark teeth, looks like it was easier to mill out a wide strip than try to mill small acute angles. Now for Connecticut.  The groove is 50 mil (1/20" or .5mm) thick. That's barely anything, but our epoxy is also only 30 mil thick. You can see that the groove's not even deep enough to eradicate the temporary painted markings that were there before.  The whole thing is very precise and smooth, though it's hard to lay the stripe exactly within the groove. It's not used for arrows, words, crosswalks, stop bars, and the like.  Let's see a show of hands: Is this safe freeway-crossing behavior? So, personally, I think the MA method is better. It'll last forever, no questions asked, and every bit of epoxy is protected from plows. There are disadvantages, though: half an inch is waaaay too thick to use on ultrathin overlays and uses a lot more epoxy. Probably produces more debris, too. I'm not sure which method is quicker to install. If your state/country uses recessed markings, get me some pictures or descriptions. I'd like to know what else is out there.
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Jul 25, 2012 22:34
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Cichlidae posted:.... Here in Madison, WI, we have recessed markings in a few places around town... Mostly busy intersections/highways. The most common way I've seen it done around here is on concrete pavement... They'll mill out strip and place the marking in the groove. The markings are usually black outlines with the appropriate color in the center as to give some contrast between the light colored pavement and the marking. The markings between driving lanes seem to hold up pretty well, but when they're used to mark turn lanes, they get unstuck and mangled pretty quickly. However, I've seen a few intersections use a different marking material that seems to hold up better, but I haven't the foggiest idea what the difference is... Other than you don't have the tape strewn all about the intersection. I'll try to get some pictures if I get a chance.
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Jul 26, 2012 02:43
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Where did you see those markings? In my experience, the markings in Mass suck balls. They wear out stupidly quickly, and they only ever do new markings every ten years. God help you if you have to drive on 95 from Newburyport to Danvers in the dark, and you might as well write a death warrant if it's raining.
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Jul 26, 2012 03:22
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Cichlidae posted:So, personally, I think the MA method is better. It'll last forever, no questions asked, and every bit of epoxy is protected from plows. There are disadvantages, though: half an inch is waaaay too thick to use on ultrathin overlays and uses a lot more epoxy. Probably produces more debris, too. I'm not sure which method is quicker to install.
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Jul 26, 2012 03:42
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kefkafloyd posted:Where did you see those markings? They're brand new. Mass hasn't done any grooves in the past, and the only reason we found these is the construction in Agawam. Route 5/57 rotary. GWBBQ posted:For a CT perspective, our markings are great until it rains. In a moderate to heavy rain at night, all but the newest markings are barely visible under glare and reflections. Not sure if you can do anything about it, but that's my two cents. This is one thing the grooved markings are supposed to fix. I think the only ones installed in the state are on the Putnam Bridge (old style) and Route 15 in Wallingford, as of this week.
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Jul 26, 2012 04:00
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Cichlidae posted:Let's talk about recessed pavement markings How do you avoid edges and corners of these recesses becoming a nice place for cracks and potholes to form from?
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Jul 26, 2012 07:47
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How about recessed reflectors? We do that here in California (it does snow here and there) and I like it a lot. I really hate when roads don't have reflectors, and it seems like they pretty much don't exist anywhere in the northeast or midwest.
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Jul 26, 2012 08:04
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Jonnty posted:How do you avoid edges and corners of these recesses becoming a nice place for cracks and potholes to form from? 50 mil is ridiculously shallow. It's not going to be a starting point for cracks any more than the existing gaps between aggregate. As for Mass, I'm not sure. It seems they'd provide very good starters for cracks, but asphalt is going to crack anyway, and a straight line is the least harmful crack you can get. Choadmaster posted:How about recessed reflectors? We do that here in California (it does snow here and there) and I like it a lot. I really hate when roads don't have reflectors, and it seems like they pretty much don't exist anywhere in the northeast or midwest. My boss has a deep-seated hatred of reflectors, based on some test runs where, even when recessed, they all got ripped out by plows.
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Jul 26, 2012 12:14
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So when you come up to a stoplight on a road with 2 lanes in a direction, you usually see dotted white line inbetween the two same-direction lanes, then for a period before the stop light you see solid white. I know this is to prevent people switching lanes last second...but to me I always use that as my yellow indicator. If I am inside the solid white when the light goes yellow, I go for it, if I'm still on dotted white, I know there's room to stop. Is that something I just made up or is there any truth to that? Did I maybe hear it from someone and it's actually a thing?
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Jul 26, 2012 12:30
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Elendil004 posted:So when you come up to a stoplight on a road with 2 lanes in a direction, you usually see dotted white line inbetween the two same-direction lanes, then for a period before the stop light you see solid white. I know this is to prevent people switching lanes last second...but to me I always use that as my yellow indicator. If I am inside the solid white when the light goes yellow, I go for it, if I'm still on dotted white, I know there's room to stop. It's definitely not a dilemma zone marker. We don't assume that all traffic goes at the same speed, and the solid white lines are usually a standard length (50 feet here). Whether you're allowed to change lanes across a solid white line depends on the state. In Connecticut, it's perfectly legal.
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Jul 26, 2012 21:35
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Cichlidae posted:It's definitely not a dilemma zone marker. We don't assume that all traffic goes at the same speed, and the solid white lines are usually a standard length (50 feet here). poo poo really? Then what is the point of them vice dashed lines?
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Jul 26, 2012 23:12
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Elendil004 posted:poo poo really? Then what is the point of them vice dashed lines? Dashed lines mean, "go between these lanes as needed." Dotted lines mean, "these two lanes are going different places." Single solid lines mean, "you can change lanes (in some states), but only if you need to." Double solid lines mean, "don't change lanes."
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Jul 27, 2012 00:26
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Cichlidae posted:Dashed lines mean, "go between these lanes as needed." I never really see double solid white lanes here in SoCal but the double solid yellow lanes that separate the carpool lane on freeways are ubiquitous. Personally I think they should be white lanes, but what do I know..
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Jul 27, 2012 00:51
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Mandalay posted:I never really see double solid white lanes here in SoCal but the double solid yellow lanes that separate the carpool lane on freeways are ubiquitous. Personally I think they should be white lanes, but what do I know.. You can see our old and new markings here: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=41.846805,-72.664799&spn=0.001002,0.002064&t=k&z=20 The old ones are, from left to right, 4" white, 12" yellow chevron, 4" yellow. The new ones are 12" white, 12" white, 12" white chevron, 12" white, 12" white. You can see them clearly from space...
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Jul 27, 2012 12:24
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For paint/epoxy road markings, is there any work being done to make them less slippery in the rain? I'm not a big fan of the wiggle I get when I run them over on a motorcycle. There was a big sharp left-hander on I-94 in Milwaukee that had zigzag "slow down" stripes painted right through the apex, and it usually felt like the car wanted to let go if I hit it hard in the rain so I never rode it on a bike.
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Jul 27, 2012 16:12
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I see tthe carpool/bus lane on the highway but what's the thick white lane with the chevrons? I went up and down the highway and didn't see a single car in there, are they off limits?
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Jul 27, 2012 16:19
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I've seen them to mark HOV lanes. I've also heard of them used for dictating a minimum distance between cars.
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Jul 27, 2012 16:28
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I just wanted to thank Cichlidae for such an awesome thread. I've been in NC since 2008 but lived in CT my whole life prior, and it's been fascinating to see and hear everything that's gone on in my home state. Have you ever done any work in or around Shelton, my hometown?
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Jul 27, 2012 18:41
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Cichlidae posted:You can see our old and new markings here: Goodness, that's a waste of road real estate.
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Jul 27, 2012 21:39
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Baronjutter posted:I see tthe carpool/bus lane on the highway but what's the thick white lane with the chevrons? I went up and down the highway and didn't see a single car in there, are they off limits? In my state (CO), two white lines with chevrons is the same as a double-white, in other words, "do not cross". They use the chevrons if the lines need to be more than <some distance> apart.
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Jul 27, 2012 21:57
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Dielectric posted:For paint/epoxy road markings, is there any work being done to make them less slippery in the rain? I'm not a big fan of the wiggle I get when I run them over on a motorcycle. There was a big sharp left-hander on I-94 in Milwaukee that had zigzag "slow down" stripes painted right through the apex, and it usually felt like the car wanted to let go if I hit it hard in the rain so I never rode it on a bike. We spray the wet epoxy with glass beads, but they still won't grip as well as sand or asphalt. Where we put down a lot of paint, like crosswalks, we usually dust with sand as well, but that's not terribly common, and it's all put down by hand, so you don't get even application. The solution is new preformed pavement markings with inlaid corundum tetrahedra spread throughout their depth. Very, very grippy, even after the plows come. Baronjutter posted:I see tthe carpool/bus lane on the highway but what's the thick white lane with the chevrons? I went up and down the highway and didn't see a single car in there, are they off limits? It's an 18-foot HOV divider, so people can't go back and forth between the HOV and regular lanes. In my opinion, it's a bad idea for a few reasons. First, if you're stuck behind a bus going 55 mph in the HOV lane, you'll probably avoid using it again. Second, maintenance frequently closes the HOV lane, forcing you across the (debris-filled) divider to try to merge into the high-speed lane. Third, it's a big waste of asphalt where we could have another lane. We should really level it out and use it as a second HOV lane, extra wide, and allow people to cross over. The Midniter posted:I just wanted to thank Cichlidae for such an awesome thread. I've been in NC since 2008 but lived in CT my whole life prior, and it's been fascinating to see and hear everything that's gone on in my home state. Shelton's not my district, but I am tangentially involved in some work in the area. The Naugatuck Valley Region is one of the most dangerous areas in the state to drive through; route 8 needs a major overhaul between 15 and 84. Nice Ahsekigga av, by the way. And I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread!
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Jul 27, 2012 21:58
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potato of destiny posted:In my state (CO), two white lines with chevrons is the same as a double-white, in other words, "do not cross". They use the chevrons if the lines need to be more than <some distance> apart. MUTCD specifically calls for two sets of double lines for a flush HOV divider. If you have a raised island, you only need one on each side, but painted needs two to effectively prohibit cars. Sign Support Inspections - How do they work? Well, each sign support is on an inspection cycle. When its number comes up, a couple guys go block the road, climb up, and take a look around. Sometimes, there are problems.  Wow, that's a lot of holes. The little circles indicate areas where they used a D-meter, which measures the thickness of the steel. It's supposed to be 3/8 of an inch, but you'll see thicknesses down to 0.123 on there. Doesn't seem safe, does it? A little worried about driving beneath it now? Well, no worries, we fixed it!  And duct tape really does fix everything, even steel that's rusted through. Note that it says it's temporary, but the service memo to fix it is only Priority C, which means it probably won't get done for several years. That duct tape had better hold a looooong time. The inspection frequency also got bumped up to 24 months. Like it or not, this is a relatively common thing for our sign supports. You should also keep in mind that our signs weigh literally tons, and they can easily crush your car.
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Jul 27, 2012 22:04
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Wait so it's not an actual lane for any sort of vehicles? It's basically just a big old median totally wasting space?? I don't understand the point of it, wouldn't it be better to use that space for another lane? Or have a dedicated bus vs carpool lane? Or just.. anything other than THAT?? Also I remember you mentioning the importance of break-away signs. I was driving on the highway (something I very rarely do) and I noticed ALL the official signs as well as some billboards and tons of other things were all built on huge thick 4x4 or even bigger solid wood posts cemented into the ground.... wouldn't want to hit them.
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Jul 27, 2012 22:10
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Baronjutter posted:Wait so it's not an actual lane for any sort of vehicles? It's basically just a big old median totally wasting space?? I don't understand the point of it, wouldn't it be better to use that space for another lane? Or have a dedicated bus vs carpool lane? Or just.. anything other than THAT?? ... Yup. Someone, at some point in the past, decided this was the best possible scenario. Baronjutter posted:Also I remember you mentioning the importance of break-away signs. I was driving on the highway (something I very rarely do) and I noticed ALL the official signs as well as some billboards and tons of other things were all built on huge thick 4x4 or even bigger solid wood posts cemented into the ground.... wouldn't want to hit them.  Yeah, I'd avoid it. What's really crazy is that we build everything we can to be breakaway, or at least put guiderail or barrier in front of it, but utility poles get a blanket exemption. That's right, those 8" wooden poles that sit 2 feet from the edge of the road every hundred feet. Totally outside the rules.
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Jul 27, 2012 22:19
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quote:Break-away signs. Is there a calculated trade-off? Would break-away posts drop several-ton signs (or billboards) across X lanes, potentially crushing X cars in the process? Speaking of signs, is duct-tape sign repair universal to all states, or is that more of a CT thing?
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Jul 27, 2012 22:31
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heythisguyhere posted:Is there a calculated trade-off? Would break-away posts drop several-ton signs (or billboards) across X lanes, potentially crushing X cars in the process? Our overhead signs are not breakaway. Their posts are either far away from the road, or protected by guiderail / barrier. Unfortunately, as you see in that bus picture, guide rail doesn't always work. I can't help but assume that duct tape is a universal fix. It works so well!
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Jul 27, 2012 22:48
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Cichlidae posted:Our overhead signs are not breakaway. Their posts are either far away from the road, or protected by guiderail / barrier. Unfortunately, as you see in that bus picture, guide rail doesn't always work. Ah, gotcha. quote:I can't help but assume that duct tape is a universal fix. It works so well! American Ingenuity at its finest.
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Jul 27, 2012 22:51
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Do you do markings like these chevrons in the US at all: http://goo.gl/maps/jbDmH The main reason they're there is to tell people how much distance to keep from cars ahead of them. The secondary (and I assume much less used) reason is that a police helicopter can use them to tell how fast you're going.
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Jul 27, 2012 23:22
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MrBling posted:Do you do markings like these chevrons in the US at all: http://goo.gl/maps/jbDmH The closest I've seen are markings in the shoulder every 1000 feet or 1 mile, used for the latter purpose. They look like this: http://binged.it/N9hJLS
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Jul 27, 2012 23:47
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Cichlidae posted:The closest I've seen are markings in the shoulder every 1000 feet or 1 mile, used for the latter purpose. They look like this: An example from Interstate 4 outside of Tampa, Florida: http://binged.it/LTdadn Varance fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Jul 28, 2012 |
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Jul 28, 2012 02:55
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Kansas and Missouri both post signs warning that speed is measured by aircraft, but I've never heard of someone getting a ticket that way. Both states often have white blocks painted on the lanes about a quarter mile apart which are supposedly timing marks.
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Jul 28, 2012 03:54
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Chaos Motor posted:Kansas and Missouri both post signs warning that speed is measured by aircraft, but I've never heard of someone getting a ticket that way. Both states often have white blocks painted on the lanes about a quarter mile apart which are supposedly timing marks. When I was a little kid, I saw a Speed limit enforced by aircraft sign and thought that a plane would swoop out of the sky and carry the car away. Arrest the car, if you will. As time passed and I realized this was impractical, I instead pictured them swooping down and shooting a suction-cup dart with a ticket attached at the windshield. To this day, I've never seen that happen, but it would be awesome.
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Jul 28, 2012 04:00
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Someone used some spray paint on one of those signs on I-95 in VA. I always got a chuckle out of it.
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Jul 28, 2012 05:13
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They've got those up in Maine, too. I think on US-1 or I-95, probably one of those.
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Jul 28, 2012 05:31
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The Netherlands has started using section control on the A2. Cars are photographed when passing under a portal entering the section of highway, and is photographed again exiting it. If the time in between is less than the distance divided by the maximum speed, then you have speeded and get fined. I also encountered this method in Austria, in a construction zone, and everyone actually adhered to the max speed for once. Is this used anywhere else?
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Jul 28, 2012 10:21
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John Dough posted:The Netherlands has started using section control on the A2. Cars are photographed when passing under a portal entering the section of highway, and is photographed again exiting it. If the time in between is less than the distance divided by the maximum speed, then you have speeded and get fined. We have this used in the UK to protect roadworks. I think they've used it permanently in England but I've only ever seen it used for temporary limits in Scotland - perhaps they don't want to risk it being got rid of thanks to driver anger so are careful about using it only when absolutely necessary - cos it really does work very well. Incidentally normal speed cameras here take two pictures at a fixed interval and need markings on the road so the speed can be worked out - here's an example http://goo.gl/maps/bSTnf You also see those lines near places where police cars park with their speedguns so that they can issue fines legally too.
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Jul 28, 2012 10:46
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My biggest problem with automated speed enforcement is that, if tickets are being given out much more frequently, the fines need to be reduced correspondingly. That $450 speeding ticket I get from a cop is, in part, to compensate for the thousands of miles I've driven over the speed limit where I didn't get caught. If everyone is getting a ticket every time they speed, it should be much lower. Also, speed limits should be set at or above the actual 85th percentile speed, fines should be based on the offender's income, and exemptions (rushing to the hospital, for example) shouldn't have to go through a lengthy court process to have their fines annulled. I'm such an idealist!
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Jul 28, 2012 13:22
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ConfusedUs posted:Speed limit enforced by aircraft. As a kid or young teenager I always thought that was done by drones and they could catch a million cars at once that way. Apparently that's not true.
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Jul 28, 2012 14:01
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Cichlidae posted:My biggest problem with automated speed enforcement is that, if tickets are being given out much more frequently, the fines need to be reduced correspondingly. That $450 speeding ticket I get from a cop is, in part, to compensate for the thousands of miles I've driven over the speed limit where I didn't get caught. If everyone is getting a ticket every time they speed, it should be much lower. Here in the UK the real threat of getting caught speeding is not the fine but the three points you get on your license. Get 12 and you're automatically disqualified from driving for a while.
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Jul 28, 2012 15:21
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Jonnty posted:Here in the UK the real threat of getting caught speeding is not the fine but the three points you get on your license. Get 12 and you're automatically disqualified from driving for a while. It's the same here in the US. Most states have a point system and almost all of them share violation information now so an infraction in another state will usually get you whatever points the violation would have earned in your own state. In Ohio 12 points is a suspension, either 3 months or one year I don't remember. Speeding tickets are two or four points depending on how bad. Points (and the tickets themselves) fall off your record after two years.
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Jul 28, 2012 16:29
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