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Sean Murray posted:No one plays a bad game, and thinks "well at least the team had a good work/life balance". No, but they buy decent ones that were notorious for horrible crunch, and think "I wonder how much better this game would be had it not been a management disaster?" Sean Murray posted:I thought LA Noire could have used more elbow grease from Team Bondi. 
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Jul 29, 2012 21:26
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Counting my lucky stars I am where I am right now. Guy I know recently started at Ubisoft in Newcastle and he said that so far that week he had done about 28 hours. That was said on wednesday morning. Crunch would have a really bad effect on my already not-stellar health.
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Jul 29, 2012 21:56
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Sounds about right, depending on the project. Scrum seems to be a religion there and they don't seem big on planning in the long-term.
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Jul 29, 2012 22:02
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icking fudiot posted:We just manufacture ours now out of raw interns, too hard/expensive to find experienced ones. See, we're doing the whole 'small team, huge project' thing and need people that are strong in a bunch of different areas. Like.... if we had the time to turn someone from an intern into a veteran unreal programmer we'd probably go for it but everyone's spinning about a hundred plates at once at the moment.
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Jul 29, 2012 22:20
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Shalinor posted:Interesting. Wouldn't have figured Copernicus for being the sort of game at PAX. If I remember correctly, it was at PAX East the first year that they held it (when it was at the Hynes center on Boylston Street) so it was local for them at the time. I forget which event it was, one of the main hall ones. I had a VIP badge so I was seated between Curt and the fat dude that draws PVP comic. I don't think the game was being shown.
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Jul 29, 2012 23:10
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Maide posted:That's Gabe Newell. Small anecdote: I met him last October at Blizzcon, and when I asked him for a DotA2 beta key, he told me to email him, and then he never responded back. I'm still heart-broken. In all seriousness, my friends got a picture with him and he's really nice about all that sort of stuff. I met him once at my first ever press junket; he smelled strongly of Windex. To this day, I'm still not sure why.
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Jul 29, 2012 23:14
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BizarroAzrael posted:Hello Games' Sean Murray on Loving Crunch. He can't possibly be saying that LA Noire needed more crunch seriously, can he? No loving reasonable person could say that and not be a huge poo poo-Hitler of a human being, right?
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Jul 30, 2012 00:16
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waffledoodle posted:No, but they buy decent ones that were notorious for horrible crunch, and think "I wonder how much better this game would be had it not been a management disaster?" The only time I have heard someone say that programmers needed more greasy skin
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Jul 30, 2012 02:59
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I'm probably going to be answering my own question, but here goes. I've been very interested in game design for years now. I've built a few ruddy games and am working on a bigger project now with a small staff; an indie project to pad my portfolio. I've been working on a CS degree but I just don't understand the math and I don't feel like I'll ever finish it (only about 5 classes away from my Associate's). I've considered switching to an IT degree but I don't want to limit myself when it comes to jobs in this industry. Does anyone else have experience facing this issue? Is it more about making things on your own time rather than a degree? I do want a degree but the more I read in this thread I realize that a CS degree isn't absolutely necessary, especially since I'm not looking to be a senior programmer or anything like that, I'd rather do a little bit of everything, pick apart design flaws, design levels, etc. I'm just a little lost and knowing that other people have gone through the same thing is a huge sigh of relief for me. Also, I apologize if this exact question has been asked before, this is a huge thread and I'm barely 1/3 of the way through it. It's tons of help though!
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Jul 30, 2012 03:39
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desudrive posted:I'm probably going to be answering my own question, but here goes. It is way more about making things on your own but as a programmer it is pretty good to have a degree, since a lot of what you do isn't something that immediately demos well. It sounds like you're completely on the right path and really at this point you need to finish out the associates and then figure out what you want to do for a bachelor's degree, while continuing to make games on your own.
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Jul 30, 2012 04:13
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desudrive posted:I've been working on a CS degree but I just don't understand the math The math is pretty drat important. I would ask yourself, are you generally bad at math (this would be a warning sign that programming is not the route for you) or just struggling with the particular material, which may simply be a warning sign that you have terrible professors and TAs. I once took a discrete mathematics class where the professor was so awful that a 10% on the final exam set the curve. desudrive posted:Does anyone else have experience facing this issue? Is it more about making things on your own time rather than a degree? I do want a degree but the more I read in this thread I realize that a CS degree isn't absolutely necessary, especially since I'm not looking to be a senior programmer or anything like that, I'd rather do a little bit of everything, pick apart design flaws, design levels, etc. I'm just a little lost and knowing that other people have gone through the same thing is a huge sigh of relief for me. Well, a degree is certainly not necessary, but you've better have a hell of a lot of initiative and a fair amount of luck without one. The bigger red flag is that you don't seem to know exactly what it is you want to do. People generally don't break into the industry without being very good at something.
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Jul 30, 2012 04:26
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BizarroAzrael posted:Hello Games' Sean Murray on Loving Crunch. I don't think I'll ever understand people who wear crunch as a badge of honour.
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Jul 30, 2012 07:08
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I can sort of understand his feelings on crunch if you're talking about your own project. Or you're working on your pet bits and bobs to make them work before deadline because guys it'll be awesome, trust me. But those cases are about .000001% of crunch and are by choice. When the first things that pops to mind for most people when you mention crunch are old EA, Red Dead Redemption, LA Noire, etc, and you look at it from that light, then yeah, he's loving nuts.
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Jul 30, 2012 07:54
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Still was an idiot for mentioning more crunch time would make a game better. Crunch time is basically when poo poo went haywire. Nobody likes staying up til 4am trying to figure out why the gently caress the game is still acting like poo poo. Sure it may be social, but after personal experience with it? gently caress.That.poo poo. It can be all hey it's a blast to hang out, but it all comes down to you are staying far more than you should for a job, and it's not for just one night. Perhaps my perception is askewed, but nobody enjoys sleeping on their desk, or in their car because they know driving home would be stupid after doing crunch hours at 4am in the morning. It is a living hell. There is a difference between loving your job, and making it feel like a slave labor. Shindragon fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Jul 30, 2012 |
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Jul 30, 2012 07:58
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Sigma-X posted:He can't possibly be saying that LA Noire needed more crunch seriously, can he? No loving reasonable person could say that and not be a huge poo poo-Hitler of a human being, right? Chasiubao posted:I don't think I'll ever understand people who wear crunch as a badge of honour. The response to both of these is likely to be among some circles "Well maybe you just aren't passionate enough about Games?" and it's important we all call people on that response as bullshit. I can't say anything on crunch other than I've not had to experience it yet in my working life. Already had two industry friends basically up and tell me that you haven't worked Games Industry for real yet or made real games until you do mandatory crunch, this saddens me that crunch is more seen as a necessary trial by fire and not exploitation.*  *Or on the smaller end of the scale, just staying behind the office for an hour or two every now and then just to get something finished. Total respect for the voluntary crunch. GeeCee fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jul 30, 2012 |
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Jul 30, 2012 08:30
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I'm passionate about sex, but I sure as hell don't want to be doing that 100 hours a week either.
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Jul 30, 2012 09:08
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I've stayed late to work extra time on something that I know will be cool and I want to get it in the game but there just isn't the time for my True Vision(tm) in the schedule. I've stayed late to work on things that were scheduled for an X week timetable which then due to circumstances beyond my control became an X - Y week timetable with the same deliverables. I don't really like doing either of those things, but the latter one is a sign of horrible management and the former is "passion." Willingly sacrificing your life outside of the office (which is the reason you work in the first place unless you are A Sad Person) so that someone else can make more money? Spending late nights fixing mistakes you made while working late nights? Passion isn't the word I'm thinking of. But hey, at least I know someone else I don't want to work for now!
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Jul 30, 2012 09:22
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mutata posted:I'm passionate about sex, but I sure as hell don't want to be doing that 100 hours a week either. Quitter.  Seriously, though, I've pulled the 100-hour weeks and anyone who sees it as anything but the last resort of catastrophic circumstances has a screw loose somewhere. There's a huge difference between "Willing to do it in an emergency to make sure the game ships" and "planning on doing it as a standard business practice." The latter is sheer lunacy.
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Jul 30, 2012 11:15
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desudrive posted:I'm probably going to be answering my own question, but here goes. Get your CS degree if you are that close. It'll give you more options and you won't have to rely solely on being a super bad rear end to get a game industry job. Plus when you realize you hate making games for a living you can always go do something else that pays more.
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Jul 30, 2012 16:01
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GetWellGamers posted:Quitter. Yeah I'm willing to put in extra hours if I have to or if I think somethings really working it just needs a little love and tenderness, but planning on it is a total loving failure on the scheduler.
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Jul 30, 2012 16:29
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I'm free. Just left working for Jagex. Now working for a corporate net business instead. Good and bad points for both. But if you want some inside intel for Jagex Ltd, I can give anyone a heads up. May help with job getting (They recruit all the time) Just wasn't for me any more. Much rather do hobby games building now.
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Jul 30, 2012 16:32
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Irish Taxi Driver posted:Yeah I'm willing to put in extra hours if I have to or if I think somethings really working it just needs a little love and tenderness, but planning on it is a total loving failure on the scheduler. There's also a huge loving difference between staying late here and there on your own initiative and being forced to work an additional 20-30 hours a week on top of that for weeks or months. I would say it's the difference between voluntarily hanging out at a coworker's house for a few hours versus being chained in his basement for six months. "What's the matter bro, I thought you CARED about our friendship?!? Don't you want to see it SUCCEED?"
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Jul 30, 2012 16:45
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my thoughts on crunch The Good I had a situation where i was about ready to head home, it was about 10pm with maybe 30min left in the (11hr) day and was the only animator left in the building. We were on longer hours, but for most people it was just overtime, not crunch. As I was about to close down our newest designer comes to me. He'd been around the block a few times and was drat talented but had been inundated with a metric gently caress-ton of bugs and tasks to be completed. He had a couple he was really having issues with and asked if I could stick around for a few and help iron out the issues since he thought it mig ht have something to do with the animation assets. I took a quick look and felt it was something we could fix quickly. 3 hours (and a wife who had passed out next to my desk) and several clumps of hair later I had to apologize and take her home and get some sleep. (fixed it in 15min the next day) Why was this good? It was an awful annoying and mind-numbing experience, but I didn't do it because I had to, I did it because I had a buddy who needed help and looked like he was about to keel over. I also found out later, when I needed a job, that he sent me stuff to everyone he knew. Helping out pays off. The Bad Any kind of mandatory longer hours where by the end of the day there wasn't anything I could start and leave but had finished my work for the day and essentially wasted time. Going back to our discussions about fiscal stability and solvency in games. I'm also curious how much money is wasted on overtime pay in those situations where, had there been better scheduling, no overtime would have needed to be paid.
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Jul 30, 2012 17:32
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treeboy posted:Going back to our discussions about fiscal stability and solvency in games. I'm also curious how much money is wasted on overtime pay in those situations where, had there been better scheduling, no overtime would have needed to be paid. That's easily avoided, they just don't pay for overtime.
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Jul 30, 2012 17:36
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StoicFnord posted:I'm free. Hearing a lot of that lately. Three friends at Jagex all left in the last two months.
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Jul 30, 2012 18:02
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I've been working remote for the past 3~ years for S2Games, and last week I finally become eligible for my visa to work in the US. So I packed my car and moved to the from Canada and all the fun stuff that comes with that. Yay! 
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Jul 30, 2012 18:16
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Shalinor posted:"Paid overtime." I almost edited this in, still I know a lot of places that do pay overtime (especially for temps and mid/associate levels) and it's always been a curiosity of mine
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Jul 30, 2012 18:33
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Shalinor posted:"Paid overtime." There are studios that actually pay OT? All the paces I know of would laugh you out of the building for even suggesting it.
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Jul 30, 2012 18:35
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Maide posted:I've been working remote for the past 3~ years for S2Games, and last week I finally become eligible for my visa to work in the US. So I packed my car and moved to the from Canada and all the fun stuff that comes with that. Yay! (seriously, congrats)
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Jul 30, 2012 18:56
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Shalinor posted:He came for the job, but stayed for the fantastically below average healthcare! I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought  Healthcare
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Jul 30, 2012 19:00
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Juc66 posted:There are studios that actually pay OT?
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Jul 30, 2012 19:03
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Maide posted:I've been working remote for the past 3~ years for S2Games, and last week I finally become eligible for my visa to work in the US. So I packed my car and moved to the from Canada and all the fun stuff that comes with that. Yay! Is it easier to get an US work visa as a Canadian, than someone from let's say the EU, or is it the same process?
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Jul 30, 2012 19:07
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FreakyZoid posted:Every studio in California has to pay it for certain staff, as far as I remember. Yeah, if you're not "salaried", if you work more than eight hours a day or forty hours in a week, whichever comes first, overtime pay is the law in California. Every place I've ever worked has had overtime pay, if they don't feel like paying it, their only recourse is to make you leave. (Or if you're wal-mart, force your employees to clock out and then keep working anyways for an hour or two.)
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Jul 30, 2012 19:20
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Maide posted:I've been working remote for the past 3~ years for S2Games, and last week I finally become eligible for my visa to work in the US. So I packed my car and moved to the from Canada and all the fun stuff that comes with that. Yay! Moving down to Kalamazoo? Say hi to Shawn Tooley for me, tell him Jason says to return my drat email.
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Jul 30, 2012 19:33
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GetWellGamers posted:if they don't feel like paying it, their only recourse is to make you leave.
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Jul 30, 2012 19:35
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GetWellGamers posted:Yeah, if you're not "salaried", if you work more than eight hours a day or forty hours in a week, whichever comes first, overtime pay is the law in California. Every place I've ever worked has had overtime pay, if they don't feel like paying it, their only recourse is to make you leave. (Or if you're wal-mart, force your employees to clock out and then keep working anyways for an hour or two.) with my current studio if I don't get OT approved by a supervisor I pretty much have to leave when my 40 is done for the week. This usually means I'm home around 5:30 on Friday, sometimes earlier. That said it's not particularly difficult to get OT approved.  : "Hey I need to stick around for a couple hours and finish this." : "Go for it!"maybe i've just been lucky? The benefits of being associate/mid-level i guess
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Jul 30, 2012 19:36
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treeboy posted:with my current studio if I don't get OT approved by a supervisor I pretty much have to leave when my 40 is done for the week. This usually means I'm home around 5:30 on Friday, sometimes earlier. That said it's not particularly difficult to get OT approved. That sounds like how my boss explained how it is at the place I'm about to start at (Wednesday  ). He said that overtime needs to be approved beforehand by a supervisor, and that crunch is a necessary evil that they try to prevent with good scheduling and planning.
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Jul 30, 2012 19:40
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VV is pretty opposed to crunch which is really nice. If something needs to get done they figure out who *has* to stay and send everyone else home. Apparently there was some absolutely horrific crunch a few years back and everyone said "gently caress that never again" and supposedly it's been very minimal for 4-5 years. Some overtime sure, but no 100 hrs work weeks
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Jul 30, 2012 19:44
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Shalinor posted:He came for the job, but stayed for the fantastically below average healthcare! I get full health/eye/dental with the job, so, it's not *that* big of a deal. There is a small period where my old healthcare doesn't overlap in roughly 10 days for 15 days, so I need to try not to get myself killed / sick / injured in that period of time.
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Jul 30, 2012 19:49
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Sion posted:See, we're doing the whole 'small team, huge project' thing and need people that are strong in a bunch of different areas. Like.... if we had the time to turn someone from an intern into a veteran unreal programmer we'd probably go for it but everyone's spinning about a hundred plates at once at the moment. I think we're pretty much always in that state, too, but somehow we've managed to train one or two guys up on the side. It is kind of insane how productive an experienced Unreal guy can be compared to someone who doesn't know the engine. I don't mean they are better programmers, just that Unreal has lots of... quirks.
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Jul 30, 2012 20:06
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