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Thoguh posted:Judoforum is a horrible place that no one should even actually go to. Why's that? I feel like they have good video links from time to time
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Jul 25, 2012 22:48
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Thoguh posted:Judoforum is a horrible place that no one should even actually go to. Fair enough, but I wouldn't discount the argument that he's making just because some of the information contained within comes from the judo equivalent of Bullshido/Sherdog. Lightning can hit the poo poo house door once.
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Jul 25, 2012 23:59
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BlindSite posted:Fair enough, but I wouldn't discount the argument that he's making just because some of the information contained within comes from the judo equivalent of Bullshido/Sherdog. Lightning can hit the poo poo house door once. I wasn't discounting the info - there are a couple old japanese guys who have been doing Judo a long time that post on there. Just that Judoforum is mainly filled with old men who hate everything and try to out outrage each other at the state of Judo today.
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Jul 26, 2012 00:36
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Reminder that Olympics grappling starts today and goes pretty much straight through until the closing ceromonies. Judo up first, then Greco-Roman Wrestling, then Women's Freestyle, then Men's Freestyle.
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Jul 28, 2012 11:19
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Submission grappling needs to be in the Olympics. Is there any reason why they haven't added it yet?
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Jul 28, 2012 11:48
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AlteredAtronach posted:Submission grappling needs to be in the Olympics. Is there any reason why they haven't added it yet? Nowhere near as big a sport as it would need to be to even be considered. How many countries have more than a handful of people doing submission grappling. Maybe 10, and that's being generous?
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Jul 28, 2012 11:58
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There's a ton of weird events that no-one cares about, though. I imagine there's not a huge international following for Wushu, for instance. Anyway, I really hope it doesn't ever get picked up. If I correctly understand the evolution of Judo rules after it became an olympic sport, it wouldn't do SW any favors.
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Jul 28, 2012 12:14
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Bohemian Nights posted:There's a ton of weird events that no-one cares about, though. The IOC doesn't like to add to the total number of athletes. At this point you pretty much have to cut in one place to get anything added. For example - to get Women's Freestyle added FILA had to agree to reduce the number of Men's weight classes by a corresponding number.
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Jul 28, 2012 12:17
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I'm fairly certain we'll see Pankration in the Olympics if submission grappling is still a Thing in 2040 or so. I'm also pretty sure it would be horrible for the development of the sport.
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Jul 29, 2012 20:49
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I would be much more interested in Olympic "Pankration," which would basically be amateur MMA, than pure Abu Dabhi style submission wrestling. Headgear, shinguards, limited/no ground strikes, etc. I don't think Olympic boxing has ruined regular boxing, it's just it's own thing. But I'd prefer that it never be referred to as MMA at all. I don't think lack of enthusiasts really stops a sport from going Olympic. Modern Pentathlon is an Olympic sport and I refuse to believe that there are many people who can (1) Fight With Swords (2) Swim Fast (3) Go Over Jumps With an Unfamiliar Horse (4) Run Fast (5) Shoot Pistols. If you can do those 5 things, congrats! You can go to the Olympics. Thermos H Christ fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jul 30, 2012 |
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Jul 30, 2012 00:44
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My theory, which might be entirely wrong, is that real boxing isn't affected by the Olympics sport because real boxing has about a hundred times the profit margin of the Olympic version, and changing anything outside of the Olympics to satisfy the IOC or anyone else simply won't ever happen. Meanwhile, there's no real money in Judo or Submission wrestling, and being in the Olympics would pretty much be the biggest thing they have going for them, so the chances of rules being changed to satisfy an audience at the olympics would be much greater.
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Jul 30, 2012 09:20
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I'm really enjoying the Olympic Judo rules more than I thought I would. It's kind of hilarious to watch a guy "defend himself" by throwing himself into the most vulnerable of positions to avoid a brief submission threat. It's funny in a sad way, seeing an art that started out because it found other martial arts to be impractical find its way to "flop down on my belly, the referee will save me".
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Jul 30, 2012 15:46
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It was weird as hell watching one of the female competitors get locked into an armbar, scream as her elbow was hyperextended to the point that even the most bovine MMA official would have called the match on a technical submission, then get stood up to continue.
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Jul 30, 2012 18:39
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Julio Cesar Fatass posted:It was weird as hell watching one of the female competitors get locked into an armbar, scream as her elbow was hyperextended to the point that even the most bovine MMA official would have called the match on a technical submission, then get stood up to continue. Did she tap? If not, did them up during the armbar or after she'd gotten out of it? The ref won't stop the match for an armbar unless you tap, or for a choke unless you tap or go unconscious.
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Jul 30, 2012 20:49
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Thoguh posted:Did she tap? Is that how it works in judo? In jiu jitsu, the main organization's rules (IBJJF) explicitly state that the match is over if you scream in pain/wet yourself/"are not wearing an undergarment and this fact comes to the referee's attention."
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Jul 30, 2012 20:54
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I'm really enjoying the Olympic Judo rules more than I thought I would. It's kind of hilarious to watch a guy "defend himself" by throwing himself into the most vulnerable of positions to avoid a brief submission threat. This is the sports part of judo, you won't see that kind of thing in every club/every member of clubs. People will game the rules of sports no matter what, but most know the sport isn't all there is to judo. When we train ground work at my club, we roll for "x" minutes without stopping (unless someone taps or something similar) so you won't see that kind of things. This is the way it was at the 3 clubs I went to. There's a lot of difference between judo as a whole and competitive judo. McNerd posted:Is that how it works in judo? In jiu jitsu, the main organization's rules (IBJJF) explicitly state that the match is over if you scream in pain/wet yourself/"are not wearing an undergarment and this fact comes to the referee's attention." It is. If you don't tap, the match won't stop until you get out/break your arm/fall unconscious.
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Jul 30, 2012 20:55
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So there is no such thing as a verbal submission on Judo? Weird.
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Jul 30, 2012 21:03
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MycroftXXX posted:So there is no such thing as a verbal submission on Judo? Weird. If you yell "I TAP I TAP" since you are physically unable to I think it would be considered a tap, but just looking like you are in a lot of pain won,t stop the match.
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Jul 30, 2012 21:04
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KingColliwog posted:This is the sports part of judo, you won't see that kind of thing in every club/every member of clubs. People will game the rules of sports no matter what, but most know the sport isn't all there is to judo. When we train ground work at my club, we roll for "x" minutes without stopping (unless someone taps or something similar) so you won't see that kind of things. This is the way it was at the 3 clubs I went to. I know that most people don't necessarily train like that, I'm just entertained by the contrary-to-practical-safety behavior that sport/Olympic judo produces. No reasonable person would defend themselves from an opponent that had thrown them to their stomach by flattening completely out on the ground, yet this is a behavior that Olympic-style judo explicitly encourages. It's quirk of the transition between an art for self-defense and a competitive sport, but it's still funny. The more genuinely frustrating things are when a competitor is really obviously working for a sub and gets stopped and stood up just as they're locking it in. I saw a couple of armbars and gi chokes that looked like totally done deals get stood up, and I saw someone stood up when they were backmounted with both hooks and an arm around the opponent's neck. I'm sure this is an argument that gets batted around all the time, but if they really want to make Judo all about working for throws, I wish they would drop the pretense and just remove all the submission stuff from the rules altogether. If nobody's get the time to work submissions, stop pretending it's an avenue to victory. Change the groundwork rules so that if you get an opponent to the mat in fashion that does not score a point, you get a clearly defined (rather than arbitrarily at the referee's discretion) amount of time to turn your opponent over and get a pin before the match is stood back up. At least that might produce some interesting scrambles and seem less arbitrary.
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Jul 30, 2012 21:16
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In my imaginary world Judo and bjj combine. You can win with ippon but the rest of the scoring is points for position (non-ippon worthy throws = takedown points) with no limit on mat time and fewer prohibitions on techniques. You can also disengage and stand if you want, forcing your opponent to stand up as well, because watching guys butt scoot and compete for who can pull guard is so uninspiring. So I guess old school judo.
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Jul 30, 2012 21:26
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MycroftXXX posted:So there is no such thing as a verbal submission on Judo? Weird. You can basically yell "tap" or "I give up", but the ref won't stop you if you just yell in pain at the international level (they will for juniors or in novice divisions). They used to, but you were running into situations where people would claim they weren't submitting. I think that's how it should be though. These are adults who are elite athletes fighting for the peak accomplishment of the sport. If they are willing (and able) to endure a dislocated elbow and continue then that is their choice. The same goes for a sprained ankle or any other injury that isn't going to impact someone's long term health. If a ref is unsure whether somebody is putting themself at risk of permanent injury they can stop the match and have the doctor examine the Judoka and make a call. The obvious exception is a concussion, since by its very nature a concussion makes the athlete unable to properly decide whether they are able to continue. You'll also have people try to trick you into thinking they have tapped. That's why in Judo when you think someone might have tapped you let up on the pressure a bit but never let go until the ref calls Soremade. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 30, 2012 |
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Jul 30, 2012 22:00
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MycroftXXX posted:So there is no such thing as a verbal submission on Judo? Weird. The referee shall announce Ippon ... When a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says Maitta (I give up!) generally as a result of Osaekomi-waza, Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza. http://judoinfo.com/pdf/Contest%20Rules-03.pdf Notice that there is a difference between yelling Maitta and yelling.
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Jul 30, 2012 22:12
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Comrade_Robot posted:The referee shall announce Ippon ... When a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says Maitta (I give up!) generally as a result of Osaekomi-waza, Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza Reminds me of my favorite rule in Judo quote:A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when from any cause or causes he may become unconscious
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Jul 30, 2012 22:19
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Thoguh posted:You'll also have people try to trick you into thinking they have tapped. That's why in Judo when you think someone might have tapped you let up on the pressure a bit but never let go until the ref calls Soremade.
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Jul 31, 2012 00:40
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Xguard86 posted:In my imaginary world Judo and bjj combine. You can win with ippon but the rest of the scoring is points for position (non-ippon worthy throws = takedown points) with no limit on mat time and fewer prohibitions on techniques. You can also disengage and stand if you want, forcing your opponent to stand up as well, because watching guys butt scoot and compete for who can pull guard is so uninspiring. This is what I ideally wish for, but if they insist on their current path of becoming pyjama Greco, I wish they'd just stop teasing with brief flashes of the old way.
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Jul 31, 2012 17:51
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I did some cursory reading on kosen judo - is that just a historical curiosity at this point or are there still a lot of schools playing that style?
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Jul 31, 2012 18:14
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Julio Cesar Fatass posted:I did some cursory reading on kosen judo - is that just a historical curiosity at this point or are there still a lot of schools playing that style? I believe there are still colleges in Japan that practice it.
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Jul 31, 2012 18:33
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:This is what I ideally wish for, but if they insist on their current path of becoming pyjama Greco, I wish they'd just stop teasing with brief flashes of the old way. I wish this was true because I want to work some takedowns but not all the time, Judo style. Like 75% ground 25% standup would be alright with me. I know some bjj schools are like that but not mine or any close to me.
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Jul 31, 2012 21:48
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Awesome, it looks like the biggest BJJ school in my area does two nights of judo for bjj/mma a week. I'll get right on that! ...after I've spent six months recovering from my surgery. 
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Jul 31, 2012 22:49
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I really wish they would revert the rules of olympic freestyle wrestling back to what it was before they did this three period nonsense. It makes it so hard to watch.
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Aug 1, 2012 17:02
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Mardragon posted:I really wish they would revert the rules of olympic freestyle wrestling back to what it was before they did this three period nonsense. It makes it so hard to watch. Totally agree. It makes the sport really boring and also downplays the importance of conditioning, which US wrestlers excel at. They changed the sport from a constant grind to a stalling contest punctuated by occasional explosions.
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Aug 1, 2012 18:18
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Thoguh posted:downplays the importance of conditioning, which US wrestlers excel at.
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Aug 2, 2012 08:11
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Intentional or not it didn't just hurt US wrestlers, other countries used to excel with conditioning as well.
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Aug 2, 2012 17:07
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Chortles posted:You sure this one isn't intentional? It was openly intentional.
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Aug 2, 2012 23:26
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Edit: Doublepost
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Aug 2, 2012 23:27
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FYI, Olympic Wrestling starts at 8AM Eastern tomorrow (Sunday) morning.
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Aug 5, 2012 01:49
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Mardragon posted:I really wish they would revert the rules of olympic freestyle wrestling back to what it was before they did this three period nonsense. It makes it so hard to watch. It's all been done to make the sport more appealing to uneducated viewers. Much like the nonsensical compulsory par terre in GR. If that isn't enough to discourage people from pushing for some form of submission grappling in the Olympic program than I don't know what could.
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Aug 5, 2012 12:01
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So I'm enjoying the new Dave Camarillo book. It's written in this really dorky army-jargon way that's kind of annoying, but the content is great. On the surface it's an explanation of Camarillo's armlock game, which is pretty incredible, and uses lots of weird and interesting positions, and I'm definitely taking a few tricks from it. But what I love about is that there's quite a lot of theory about how he teaches his students to build their game, and it's different to what you hear in most places. He basically encourages you to choose one submission, get amazing at it from as many places as you can, and chase it from position to position. He also encourages you to focus your practice on positions in between the major ones that are part way into whatever submission you're following, adapt your sweeps and escapes to take you into those half-way positions. It's interesting stuff.
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Aug 13, 2012 02:47
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:It's written in this really dorky army-jargon way that's kind of annoying, but the content is great. 02-6611-0142-1 posted:He basically encourages you to choose one submission, get amazing at it from as many places as you can, and chase it from position to position.
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Aug 13, 2012 04:13
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Chortles posted:Sounds quite akin to Bruce Lee's "one kick ten thousand practices" theory. Does Camarillo have advice for how lower-level practicioners should approach this? My understanding of the conventional wisdom is that you should familiarize yourself with a lot of different stuff enough to figure out what works for you, and then start to specialize as you guys have described. The problem seems to be that most of the instructional material is targeted toward people who are still in that first phase, so it's easy to get the wrong impression. (Or maybe I just haven't seen much of the hyperspecialized stuff because I haven't been looking for it.)
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Aug 13, 2012 05:46
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