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snoremac posted:I just picked up Deadhouse Gates from where I left it about a month ago. I've forgotten a few plot details and was hoping someone could remind me about a few things. 1. They're headed to a House of the Azath that supposedly will allow them to travel to Malaz City, where another House of the Azath (the Deadhouse) is located. They would have just taken a ship to Malaz Island, but all outgoing ships were docked due to the Seven Cities rebellion. 2. He didn't exactly steal it, but Kalam is carrying the Book of the Apocalypse to Sha'ik, the divine leader of the Seven Cities Rebellion, in order to cause chaos and destabilize Lasseen's empire. The Red Blades (a Seven Cities mercenary company that swore loyalty to the Malazan Empire) know that Kalam has the book and are currently trailing him. It helps that I just finished my Deadhouse Gates reread 
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Aug 10, 2012 06:42
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Thank you. I'm mostly enjoying the series so far. The first part of GotM was such a slog that I almost stopped reading, but when the setting shifted to Darujhistan I was captivated by the city and how the narrative plunged into the middle of a complex situation without explaining it. Enough juicy stuff happened that I felt propelled to find out why. I loved how all the plot threads lead to Coll's ex-wife's (forget her name) party. It was fascinating seeing them all play out. Random thoughts: Kruppe reminds me of Falstaff in that he's a humorous, intelligent, self-gratifying man who everybody underestimates. In that respect the tavern scenes borrow nicely from the Henry IV plays. I always enjoyed the banter between Crokus, Kruppe and the gang. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the magic. I have a vague understanding of what warrens are but I'm lost on the specifics. I don't really want an explanation. I've just accepted at this point that weird things are part of this world's reality. I'm being narrow-minded, but the poetry between chapters only gets on my nerves. I think what Erikson is doing is offering these remnants of literature and historical record in an attempt to 'authenticate' the text as a historical one that might be part of the Malazan world. It's a nice touch. I like the historical records, but find the poetry tedious. snoremac fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Aug 10, 2012 |
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Aug 10, 2012 07:59
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Glad to hear you're sticking with the series! It's one of my favorites, and yeah I felt the same way about Gardens of the Moon. The first 150 pages or so took me about six months to get through, and then once I got through them the rest of the book lasted me about a week! You'll get to see a lot of magic in action in Deadhouse Gates, especially the Warres. Lots of crazy stuff goes down. It's definitely something you figure out by seeing it done, not by having it explained. I think the poetry is mostly there to establish that you're looking at big movers and shakers that go on to be the stuff of legend, as well as to set the mood for the chapters. I agree that it's sometimes tiring to read, but you can really just skip over it and only miss a little flavor if you want.
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Aug 10, 2012 08:11
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I'm in the same place as snoremac. I finished Deadhouse Gates last night. So Felisin kind of goes from this cold child after all that bad stuff happened to her at the beginning of the book, and turns randomly into this all knowing and still cold smart rear end. At first I figured she changed because of the Silanas boat incident, but then later she has a conversation with the ex-Priest later and revealed that the Sh'iak never contacted her and essentially admitted that nothing about her had changed. I don't understand this character's transformation. Her then Ascending as if she knew this was going to happen the whole time while it read like a bluff, well, that left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually liked the first book better because, like snoremac, I really loved the city of Darujhistan. All that time the book focused there made its area feel real and alive - the geography in second book seems to fly by so fast that it felt like a chore to read until its climax. I don't think it helps that the Kindle version has unreadable maps, so for the next book I'm going to print out physical copies. The Azath is still pretty vague after this book, right? I still feel like I missed something with it. It swallows the Jhagut Tyrant's power and creates a new house in book 1, and in book 2 it wants the other half-Jagh's power, so it seems to be some cosmic balancer. It also seems to be the universe's master warren after the scene with all those tiles. Is that a pretty good handle on it for this point in the books... or did I really miss the point of what the Azath is/are? They confuse me.
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Aug 10, 2012 15:17
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Even after the series ends you'll think you've started to understand the warrens, but then you'll start Forge of Darkness and everything you thought you knew will be turned upside down. So don't even worry about trying to wrap your head around it, though you'll understand more as the series progresses.
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Aug 10, 2012 16:11
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Robot Danger posted:So Felisin kind of goes from this cold child after all that bad stuff happened to her at the beginning of the book, and turns randomly into this all knowing and still cold smart rear end. At first I figured she changed because of the Silanas boat incident, but then later she has a conversation with the ex-Priest later and revealed that the Sh'iak never contacted her and essentially admitted that nothing about her had changed. I don't understand this character's transformation. Her then Ascending as if she knew this was going to happen the whole time while it read like a bluff, well, that left a bad taste in my mouth. The way Felisin changes is solely related to what happens to her. You may not like characterization but I think it's one of the best things in the whole series. She does change at the end because she merges with the goddess. But it's not a full possession like Cotillion with Sorry. Felisin is still herself, but she has now the knowledge and power of the goddess. She wasn't "replaced" by a different personality. She only received another and is settling with it. Instead the way Felisin goes from naive and weak to cold and spiteful is just consequence of what happens to her, with no "magic" involved.
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Aug 11, 2012 04:51
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Finished Forge of Darkness yesterday, it owned! It really tosses a whole lot of accepted history/mythology away, shakes everything up. Somethings still aren't clear of course but holy poo poo! Not spoilers but reveal if some characters are "good or bad" Draconus is a lot less evil than I'd thought but still not a "nice dude". gently caress Envy and Spite, what evil loving cunts. Olar Ethil is always poo poo and so is the Errant. Anomander and kin are awesome all Andii are basically awesome. Death to the Liosan, they suck. Scabandaris seems like and OK dude, I wonder when he starts to be come more of a baddy. If someone wants some heavy spoilers I can provide, if your that kind of reader I myself give no-shits about spoilers. There are some pretty heavy stuff in there, like who is actually who and who is actually related or someones parents. And a lot of other myth-related stuff.
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Aug 12, 2012 11:41
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I've also just finished Forge, personally I thought it was fantastic but I can see it being very divisive. It's very deliberately paced, the characters still do tons of philosophising, and there's no real convergence like you can usually expect from a Malazan story. I personally enjoy the long internal monologues, I thought the world building was amazing, and the sheer amount of new info we get about the universe is exciting. Lots of new questions! Starting a re-read now!
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Aug 12, 2012 20:36
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I just finished OST and it was a confusing and jumbled mess of a book. Antsy's dungeon crawl was probably the best part, even though it ended up making very little difference in the book. The Seguleh were also interesting to read about, and the Bridgeburners are always fun, but man the last third of the book just fell apart at the seams. ICE does WAY too much of the intentional obfuscation of character identities and motivations. When your POV character recognizes someone, why continue to use vague description instead of just telling us? Or speak in riddles just to keep the reader in the dark about what is going on? Vorcan and Rallicks final conversation is what I am talking about here. There were just so many loose threads, unexplained things, and dropped balls it was ridiculous. But hey, there were plenty of one page cameos from earlier characters!
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Aug 12, 2012 21:12
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bigmcgaffney posted:ICE does WAY too much of the intentional obfuscation of character identities and motivations. When your POV character recognizes someone, why continue to use vague description instead of just telling us? Or speak in riddles just to keep the reader in the dark about what is going on? Vorcan and Rallicks final conversation is what I am talking about here. THIS! You put into words my real problem with ICE, it's really annoying and I hope he stops doing it. It just feels like lazy storytelling creating mystery and tension where there is none.
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Aug 12, 2012 22:56
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Care to give more examples? The one you gave was IMO just a bit of spinning to leave things open for the next book as part of the denouement. It doesn't happen that often. On the contrary, I thought he did a good job finishing up people's arcs, Tayschrenn, Barathol & Scillara, and especially Traveller all had their arcs finish up pretty nicely.
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Aug 13, 2012 05:08
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Stuff off the top of my head, mostly griping of course. I did enjoy the book, I just felt like the more ICE books I read the more the little things annoy me. Tayschrenn may have wrapped up from the last books, but ended with a new arc beginning. Though Kiska should be finished now, she will probably return. Traveller as the Seguleh First was pretty cool. He played it too cagey with Derudan. Like, for the whole book. The whole thing with the crossbow bolts was extremely vague, between Baruk's place, Barathol, Humble Measure, and Kruppe, we can kind of figure out that they were probably shards of Dragnipur, but its never stated outright. The Tyrant started out interesting but the questions raised were not really answered, like the Stormriders in SW. What was the deal with the lone dead demon in the well? When Thurule joined the Madrun and Door, he was just described as a newcomer, no other description for like 3 appearances. Since hes not really a major player this was kind of obnoxious. When Topper shows up, every one he talks too knows its Topper, we know its probably Topper, but refuses to outright say its Topper for a couple more chapters. The menagerie of mages on Moon's Spawn. B&KB are there, with a bunch of others who then disappear. Malakai (just a guy apparently). The Heels (probably from Asshai). Orchid. Handled well, but of course didn't play into the main plot at all. Most likely set-up, but then we could say the same for Ghelel. Leoman does jack poo poo. Which reminds me about Dunsparrow, who was never seen again.
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Aug 13, 2012 07:45
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http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/08/steven-erikson-talks-with-peter-orullianquote:I see a clash of currents, one on the rise and one descending. The one on the rise is all about competence: line by line, word by word—the simple facility with language that comes with lots and lots of practice. The one on the descent relates, I think, to imaginative inventiveness, which was probably a quality of youth and the ambition that thrives in it. In many respects, my ambitions are more modest these days: or, rather, they have turned inward, introspective rather than balls-to-the-wall-in-your-face-take-a-look-at-loving-this (which more or less describes the Malazan Book of the Fallen).
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Aug 14, 2012 10:34
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Hope that doesn't mean even more exchanging of dialogue and action for philosophising.
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Aug 14, 2012 14:53
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He says some stuff in this interview which reminds me of a conversation I had with him about his fellow Canadian fantasy author R. Scott Bakker. I think he has very conflicted feelings, though this is a little harsher than I remember him being in person:quote:Authors will subvert that, and many do, and we are left (usually) with unease, with dissatisfaction: we are also left wondering, what was the author’s point here? That we’re all hosed: that life is poo poo; that the bad guys win; that we exist in a nihilistic nightmare? At which point, isn’t it fair to ask: ”why did you bother telling me that? I mean, what’s the loving point, rear end in a top hat?“ And you know what, you’d have a point (I often ask that after a particularly miserable film—Surveillance comes to mind).
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Aug 14, 2012 15:13
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I knew I liked Erikson  The overwhelming nihilism that's become popular in fantasy is partly responsible for me falling out of the genre as a whole, which is a shame to me, but I'm glad to see that I'll continue to not have to worry about that with Erikson.
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Aug 14, 2012 15:51
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Oh Snapple! posted:I knew I liked Erikson ?Can I ask why you think Erikson doesn't fit this mold? To me, almost all of the books are filled with non-stop nihilism. To throw 5,000 pages of downers and bad things happening because of curses/fate/luck, but wrap up with a 'yay, they were still heroes' doesn't really seem non-nihilistic?
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Aug 14, 2012 19:47
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There is plenty of nihilism in Erikson's books, in fact sometimes it was almost too much, and I would start to notice it effecting my mood when I binge read. I would have to remind myself occasionally that real life isn't isn't as bad as the poo poo happening to the characters in the books.
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Aug 14, 2012 20:07
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Life is much worse. The difference is that he starts from a premise of honesty. While a certain nihilism starts from a premise of sensationalism. Otherwise you fall either in rhetoric, or in wishful thinking and romantic consolations.
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Aug 14, 2012 20:25
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Abalieno posted:Life is much worse. Eh, I don't know about much worse. Maybe the same level of worse. As I sat here in bed, posting on the internet, I wondered how life could be worse than lizards with blades for arms slaughtering everyone you know and are close to, far from home, nobody ever knowing what happened, just because you were in the way of them fighting other giant lizards? Well, being impoverished in a worn-torn country could lead to the same scenario, possibly without the lizards. I'm not sure you can just discount all the successes amd triumphs of life in one fell sweep though.
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Aug 14, 2012 21:09
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Abalieno posted:Life is much worse. Can you expand on what you mean w/ a premise of honesty vs sensationalism? Honestly curious. Also, iirc, you've not read the whole series yet? Books 8 and 9 really kick, IMO, some of the nihilistic stuff into overdrive wihtout any sort of necessity/payoff. I mean that whole mutilation and multiple rapes into insanity was really over the top for me. I get that real life is much worse. That's why I read fiction, to escape. I like to be challenged/stimulated by reading for enjoyment, but it's really about relaxation. If I want to deal with nasty stuff happening, I can read nonfiction and/or enough news articles.
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Aug 15, 2012 00:34
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CrazyLikeAMadDog posted:?Can I ask why you think Erikson doesn't fit this mold? To me, almost all of the books are filled with non-stop nihilism. To throw 5,000 pages of downers and bad things happening because of curses/fate/luck, but wrap up with a 'yay, they were still heroes' doesn't really seem non-nihilistic? Gonna be some spoilers from various books below here. The only real instance where I think Erikson goes into nihilism overdrive is with the Barghest in the later books. I think he even realized this partway through, which is why we got Hetan's rather sudden resurrection. For the rest of the series, I think it's just part of Erikson's formula: He's unafraid to do awful things to his characters, but at the same time he isn't awful to them just for the sake of it. It was my experience throughout the series that when Erikson brought me/the reader down, it was to lift us up again later on with some extremely beautiful actions by his characters, a big one being Itkovian. There's also Anomander's sacrifice to lift the Tiste Andii out of their own depression and ennui and the Otataral Dragon in TCG. What sets Erikson apart is how much weight he puts upon characters taking a particular course of action solely because it's the right thing to do. So much of the series is based upon this and acting with compassion toward others, and Erikson treats such actions with an incredible amount of respect in his writing. Do things always end particularly well for the people who do these things? No, as we see with the Chain of Dogs. But there is always the sense that these actions were still worth it, that these actions mattered, regardless of whether or not the person or people performing them came out particularly healthy. That sense isn't really there with writers like Martin, who seem to act as spitefully as possible to any of their characters that attempt to act with a single iota of selflessness. And you certainly, at least from what I've seen, don't get people calling a character "stupid" for such attempts when it comes to Malazan, unlike what I've seen with ASoIaF.
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Aug 15, 2012 01:10
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Oh Snapple! posted:Gonna be some spoilers from various books below here. Thanks for the response. I can see a lot of what you're saying. I guess I've just been stuck on the Hetan, Felisin the Younger and even some of the Darujhistan stuff in Book 8. I get that Erikson tries to draw some contrasts in characters/actions that aren't always accessible on 1st read. I guess my feeling is that he doesn't always succeed, which makes some of the books read as excessively down to me. I can see what you're saying about it not being malicious/spiteful and totally agree with that.
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Aug 15, 2012 01:29
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Oh Snapple! posted:And you certainly, at least from what I've seen, don't get people calling a character "stupid" for such attempts when it comes to Malazan, unlike what I've seen with ASoIaF. This is why I've never been able to get past book two in ASoIaF. The cruelty never "pays off" and any self sacrifice seems pointless because nothing worthwhile ever comes from it. The whole ASoIaF universe feels like some kind of Randian wet dream. Almost everyone is a selfish dick, whoever breaks that mold is punished, and their efforts ultimately end up being futile. On the other hand, it seems like the Malazan books are somewhat the opposite. Selflessness is lauded, even if, like you said, the people who make the sacrifice aren't always rewarded. Thanks for the great post.
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Aug 15, 2012 02:51
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On the topic of self sacrifice, I just finished Reaper's Gale, and Beak's death drat near made me cry. And so did our peek into his afterlife. Beak was an awesome character all the way through, it sucks that he was only in one book, but I think when I look back on this series after finishing that Beak is going to be one of the storylines that stays with me.
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Aug 15, 2012 21:31
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After recently getting back into reading. I picked up this series on the recommendation of one of my friends. I've really enjoyed it so far (~26% through Reapers Gale). But holy gently caress, do I feel like I need my make an excel spread sheet for some of these characters that pop in and out of the story. Already planning on a re-read so maybe I can wrap my brain around on some of the things I know I'm missing.
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Aug 17, 2012 05:19
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Home Made Jesus posted:After recently getting back into reading. I picked up this series on the recommendation of one of my friends. I've really enjoyed it so far (~26% through Reapers Gale). But holy gently caress, do I feel like I need my make an excel spread sheet for some of these characters that pop in and out of the story. Did you start reading this series at Reaper's Gale? 
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Aug 17, 2012 09:45
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The Dark Wind posted:Did you start reading this series at Reaper's Gale? No I started at Gardens of the Moon.
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Aug 17, 2012 15:56
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I got a question for the Malaz crowd: Am I the only one that more often than not skipped all the epigraphs and poems and songs that were posted at chapter starts? I read them mostly up to maybe book 2, but when I noticed that 1, they weren't very good, and 2, very rarely had anything at all to do with the events going on, I just stopped. Did I miss anything? If it was a shortie, I'd read it, but those long assed Fisher Kel Tath ones? Thbbbptffttp
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Aug 17, 2012 20:24
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So as someone totally ashamed that I couldn't get into TCG for whatever reason after reading all of the other 9 books, am I able to read Forge of Darkness without spoiling myself in anyway? Maybe if I get 'into' Forge of Darkness that will put me back in the mood to finish off TCG? Thoughts!? e: Just realized this has been commented on a bunch previously, sorry about that. Feel free to scald me for not being able to complete TCG though, maybe that will get me reading the drat thing.
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Aug 17, 2012 20:40
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Yeah I've just gotten to book two of Forge of Darkness. There's nothing in there that could spoil the previous books so far, and I don't see how since it takes place so long before. Illuminate characters perhaps but not detract in any way, really. It's a different pace but very much same old Erikson so far.
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Aug 17, 2012 21:11
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I'll scald you; why the hell wouldn't you finish reading TCG first. Are you maybe afraid of ending the tale and that's what is keeping you from finishing the last book of a ten book monster? Sure it has a slow start up like the last few books but I can't see how someone who enjoyed the last 9 books would be able to stop turning the page to see how all the pieces finally fit together into one big climax. I just can't see it. Finish TCG.
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Aug 17, 2012 22:33
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I'd read TCG first just so I didn't forget who everyone is and where everything stands leading into it.
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Aug 18, 2012 01:49
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Home Made Jesus posted:After recently getting back into reading. I picked up this series on the recommendation of one of my friends. I've really enjoyed it so far (~26% through Reapers Gale). But holy gently caress, do I feel like I need my make an excel spread sheet for some of these characters that pop in and out of the story. I have basically the same thing going on where I took about a year and half away from heavy reading. On top of that I decided to give the fantasy genre a shot for the first time, and I started with Abercrombie's series since it was lighter. I liked it and moved onto Malazan with some confidence. I'm just on book three right now, but the big problem I am having is from keeping the geography straightened out. I'm reading the Kindle versions and the maps are basically unreadable. I've since printed out different maps online and have used them a lot. It's really made the experience a lot better since I had a hard time with The Chain of Dogs' march.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:44
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Well, I finished Reapers Gale last Thursday, and that certainly was something. I dislike how Trull was unceremoniously stabbed while at the body of his brother. Also, with Icarium, did he create a new warren or new magic something by turning his machine on? I know K'Rul was mentioned just before that happened. What exactly was the point of invading an already rotten empire by the Adjunct? I cried when Beak died. No more candles left to burn.  At least Tehol became emperor and Brys is back  I also don't understand why the Errant drowned Feather Witch. Was she unsatisfactory as a high priestess?Edit: I forgot to add - Shadowthrone and Cotillion now have access to Starvald Demelain. How did they know this was all going to work out the way it did? They always seem to know something, but it is never explained. Random question I just thought of: what happened to Talamandas (i think that was the name). The stick puppet that was perched on Quick's shoulder throughout Memories of Ice and helped him to travel the warrens. That whole "the warrens are poisoned and dangerous to travel" plotline seems to have disappeared. pakman fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 02:58
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pakman posted:I also don't understand why the Errant drowned Feather Witch. Was she unsatisfactory as a high priestess? He didn't want a High Priestess in the first place because he doesn't want the obligation, and he doesn't want to share.
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Aug 20, 2012 03:06
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Robot Danger posted:I have basically the same thing going on where I took about a year and half away from heavy reading. On top of that I decided to give the fantasy genre a shot for the first time, and I started with Abercrombie's series since it was lighter. What maps did you end up using? After some searching all I ran into was a lot of low-rez garbage.
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Aug 20, 2012 17:04
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Home Made Jesus posted:What maps did you end up using? Enhanced Maps This website has enhanced quality maps for seven different fantasy authors. It's pretty cool.
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Aug 20, 2012 17:17
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Dramatika posted:On the topic of self sacrifice, I just finished Reaper's Gale, and Beak's death drat near made me cry. And so did our peek into his afterlife. Beak was an awesome character all the way through, it sucks that he was only in one book, but I think when I look back on this series after finishing that Beak is going to be one of the storylines that stays with me. I was pretty sad there too, he is really tragic with every little thing you learn about him, that peek at the end was great  It can get really overwhelming in this series with the glut of characters introduced every book but often, especially in this case, Erikson is good about making them unique and memorable. Loving Life Partner posted:I got a question for the Malaz crowd: They rarely have anything to do directly with the events going on in the chapter/book, but they often do have something to do with the history or mythology of the world that can be really rewarding when you find a connection like that. It's often subtle when it is, but sometimes yes it can just be a boring poem. You won't miss out on anything major, but I'd try to read it until your brain starts to shut down then just move on.
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Aug 21, 2012 21:11
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pakman posted:Well, I finished Reapers Gale last Thursday, and that certainly was something. I finished Reaper's Gale recently as well, and was wondering earlier if I missed something - what the hell happened with Icarium that was being referenced by Veed and that soldier? They were talking about how he went loving crazy and killed a ton of people at some point but I don't actually remember that happening? Was it off screen? After they found out about the throne of shadow and before they got to Letharas? Also what happened after the machine 'blew up'? I feel like I may have missed some stuff or zoned out while reading or something...
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Aug 22, 2012 04:41
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