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Just finished running through to book 13 and was really impressed with sanderson's stuff. I think like many people I made it as far as book 10 before and was so unimpressed I quit the series. Now, knowing that there was a book 11-13 beyond books 9 & 10 actually made them tolerable, if not enjoyable. And maybe as I'm older I found myself liking alot of the "annoying" characters a lot more which I think isn't unusual either.
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Aug 5, 2012 10:56
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AlternateAccount posted:Thank you for clearing this up! Don't give up. The first half of the book is a bit rough, but so much cool stuff happens in the second half it makes up for it. Same for crown of swords though the end isn't quite as thrilling.
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Aug 5, 2012 13:57
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Back then I found the slow world-building stuff kinda relaxing and engrossing (giving some general weight to later action sequences), but I don't really have the patience to read it all over again for the sixth time. Still, some could probably have been cut or baked into faster sequences without having people fight the dreaded assault of Stephen King's tablecloth and flying pillows.
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Aug 5, 2012 19:04
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Kallor posted:Just finished running through to book 13 and was really impressed with sanderson's stuff. I think like many people I made it as far as book 10 before and was so unimpressed I quit the series. Now, knowing that there was a book 11-13 beyond books 9 & 10 actually made them tolerable, if not enjoyable. A possibility: Part of the problem of the "annoying" characters is that they take too much space/time in the books so the reader hate them because it slow down the plot, Rand appears less and less because of them, etc. Now, in a reread, you don't have the same drive to advance in the main storyline, to see what happens next; you already know what happens, you are just re-reading it the books because they are enjoyable, you lay back and enjoy the prose, even if the character is one of the "annoying" group.
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Aug 5, 2012 19:36
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Turin Turambar posted:A possibility: Part of the problem of the "annoying" characters is that they take too much space/time in the books so the reader hate them because it slow down the plot, Rand appears less and less because of them, etc. I think that's part of it, but part of it is also that the annoying characters, at least some of them, tend to be a little more psychologically realistic. Nynaeve is incredibly annoying on a first readthrough as a kid, but re-reading as an adult she's really easy to identify with -- she goes from Annoying Angry Mom Character to "I totally get where she's coming from now that I have kids" on a re-read. Elayne is annoying as gently caress but her characterization makes sense given how coddled she was growing up. The whole Faile/Perrin dynamic makes more sense once you realize that Faile's reacting normally and it's all Perrin's "nose" making him act strangely that keeps setting Faile off.
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Aug 5, 2012 19:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think that's part of it, but part of it is also that the annoying characters, at least some of them, tend to be a little more psychologically realistic. Nynaeve is incredibly annoying on a first readthrough as a kid, but re-reading as an adult she's really easy to identify with -- she goes from Annoying Angry Mom Character to "I totally get where she's coming from now that I have kids" on a re-read. Elayne is annoying as gently caress but her characterization makes sense given how coddled she was growing up. The whole Faile/Perrin dynamic makes more sense once you realize that Faile's reacting normally and it's all Perrin's "nose" making him act strangely that keeps setting Faile off. I've said it before, but this is probably the biggest thing that really makes me love this series, despite any other faults it has. Being able to write characters that people like and dislike, but have both kinds be realistic really makes the world feel more alive to me than a lot of other books. I also agree that on rereads it is nice to be able to just read what is going on and not have to worry about when you're going to see your favorite character again. If you spend your time looking for things that you missed before, the chapters fly by pretty quick. Not sure where we're supposed to be in the reread, but I think Winter's Heart is coming up soon. I've always liked it, but that is largely in part because my favorite character shows up again, and there is a lot of development for things involving the last battle and after it. Lord of Chaos has some bits that are definitely a slog, I could never stand the whole "getting to Salidar" thing, though a couple important things happen during it. There is some really good stuff going on with the rest of the characters that make it worth it to push through, or just kind of glaze over paragraphs where not much is happening.
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Aug 5, 2012 20:43
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One of my favorite moments in the books is one early part with the Wondergirls in the Stone of Tear.quote:Nynaeve brought three goblets of spiced wine to the table, beads of condensation running down their shining sides, and small green-and-gold woven straw mats to put them on so the damp would not mar the table’s polish. “So,” she said, taking a chair, “you’ve discovered you are in love with Rand, Elayne, and Egwene has discovered she isn’t.” These are all pretty great passages out of my favorite WoT book. Nynaeve is busy herself in capturing the heart of a man who's already decided to basically court death. There's a similarly good passage referring to that in TEotW: quote:“Pretty Nynaeve,” Mat spat. “A Wisdom isn’t supposed to think of herself as a woman, is she? Not a pretty woman. But you do, don’t you? Now. You can’t make yourself forget that you’re a pretty woman, now, and it frightens you. Everybody changes.” Nynaeve’s face paled as he spoke—whether with anger or something else, Rand could not tell. Mat gave a sly laugh, and his feverish eyes slid to Egwene. Mat's tainted with the dagger, but everything he says in this entire passage is right on the money. Nynaeve's been pretty obviously repressed for a good long time--her father trained her in woodcraft, she's the youngest Wisdom in the Two Rivers in perhaps ever, she's busy subconsciously suppressing the knowledge that she's channeling, she has to be an authority figure to people much much older than her, and to a bunch of kids nearing "adulthood" who are maybe 3-4 years younger than she is. This moment in the inn very clearly redefines Nynaeve, to herself.
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Aug 5, 2012 21:02
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is that seriously how they get rid of Sammael? He's just there and then he dissapears and Rand is all like, "whelp, looks like the job is done." They've been building up the conquest/battle for Illian for two or three books now, and to have it plop down in a single chapter was a bit of a let down. When I finished the book I felt like, "that was it?" Ah well, there will be other battles I suppose. Also..what is up with that Farstrider book? It seems like everybody always has a copy of it on hand. There is no way that it cannot serve some bigger significance.
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Aug 6, 2012 01:00
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The thing is Farstrider isn't some book of legends for the most part, the book was published in 968, the series takes place around 1000. He caught the guy who betrayed Malkier (pretty much big hero status now), and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't really explicitly mentioned. He has done a whole bunch of amazing stuff, and wrote a book (though I'm unsure if he wrote it or someone else, but I'm assuming he did). So pretty much a huge legend from the aging generation, and is depicted as a great storyteller. It isn't too hard to see why his book would be pretty wildly popular.
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Aug 6, 2012 01:30
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By the time the Sammael fight goes down, the end is a foregone conclusion (because Rand's forces take Illian), so the most interesting parts is the stuff that's going on around the fight: 1) Graendal literally throws Sammael under the bus (and made drat sure the bus would kill him), then goes around rummaging in his poo poo while everything's still in total disarray. I think she even comes out ahead with a new saidar angreal. Graendal is the archetypical backstabbing scheming Forsaken--none of the others even comes close, even with how much of a cold bitch Lanfear was with Asmodean, in her and Rand's setup for TSR. 2) An "unknown" Forsaken-level channeler!!!??? helping Rand out at the actual fight, with huge repercussions coming down the line. 3) Sammael's chaos-sowing takes another 4 books to get taken care of, which is rivaled only by Rahvin's poo poo on Andor. 4) There's something weird going on with Sammael that may or may not get cleared up. This is touched on again by Knife of Dreams, I think.
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Aug 6, 2012 02:09
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api call girl posted:1) Graendal literally throws Sammael under the bus (and made drat sure the bus would kill him), then goes around rummaging in his poo poo while everything's still in total disarray. I think she even comes out ahead with a new saidar angreal. Graendal is the archetypical backstabbing scheming Forsaken--none of the others even comes close, even with how much of a cold bitch Lanfear was with Asmodean, in her and Rand's setup for TSR.
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Aug 6, 2012 02:26
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Ani posted:In what way does this happen? Just looking at ACOS, it's pretty clear that Sammael would have beat Rand, if not for the unknown channeler showing up to help him out. Lord of Chaos, Ch6 posted:Sammael was a transparent fool. No, not a fool. He was deadly enough when he had something to fight directly, something he could see clearly, but he might as well be blind when it came to subtleties. Very likely he believed her ruse was intended to mask what she and the others were up to. One thing he would never consider was that she knew every twitch of his mind, every twist of his thoughts. After all, she had spent nearly four hundred years studying the workings of minds far more convoluted than his. Transparent, he was. However much he tried to hide it, he was frantic. He was trapped in a box of his own devising, a box he would defend to the death rather than abandon, a box in which he very probably would die. She made drat sure to go along with Sammael in his schemes and slowly and subtly play him so that he would plant himself in Illian and have thought for nothing else when Rand's plot train rolled through. Also, Sammael was behind the trolloc attack on the Stone in Tear, he thinks Lanfear saved Rand with her trollocs but it was orders that came down from "on top": Semirhage sent the opposing trollocs. Sammael's the only remaining Forsaken who would defy the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" order and with ACoS that's done with. Sammael's defeat is pre-ordained. The actual details of the battle were less than relevant. Rand could probably have saved himself from the fall (if nothing else with his ta'veren nature) but "the Pattern demanded something else happen."
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Aug 6, 2012 02:44
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api call girl posted:She made drat sure to go along with Sammael in his schemes and slowly and subtly play him so that he would plant himself in Illian and have thought for nothing else when Rand's plot train rolled through. quote:Also, Sammael was behind the trolloc attack on the Stone in Tear, he thinks Lanfear saved Rand with her trollocs but it was orders that came down from "on top": Semirhage sent the opposing trollocs. Sammael's the only remaining Forsaken who would defy the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" order and with ACoS that's done with.
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Aug 6, 2012 13:19
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Not like Sammael would have needed any prodding to go after Rand, he and Demandred are very much alike on that page. Remember, even more so with Forsaken segments, these are Graendal thoughts about the matter and Graendal aint half as smart as she thinks she is. Few characters are, and channelers are so easily full of themselves. (Arguably, only Semirhage lives up to her reputation / intelligence / competence amongst the female forsaken).
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Aug 6, 2012 14:38
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Pimpmust posted:Not like Sammael would have needed any prodding to go after Rand, he and Demandred are very much alike on that page. That's as may be, but look at the facts. 1) Demandred hasn't managed to get himself in an unwinnable confrontation with Rand yet. 2) The assault on Illian is the farthest-out telegraphed attack in the entire running of the series, yet Sammael sat there like a lump and took it like a chump, despite being accounted one of the great Forsaken generals. Why? 3) Graendal has backstabbed and killed the most Forsaken. Except Rand.
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Aug 6, 2012 14:53
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Heh, deleted a part before I posted about how Demandred was smarter than both of those two because he hadn't gotten himself infront of the Ta'veren crazy train at all yet. Graendal claim to fame is being more damaging for her own side than the enemy is, and scavenging for scraps whenever her latest plot collapses in on itself  Of course, almost all the female forsaken come off better than the men in the planning department (short of maybe Demandred, but that's probably just because we only got like 2 minutes of page time for him). The men have a tendency to get tossed infront of Rand more often than the women (no flowery sword fights / laser light shows for you wenches!) with predictable outcome. In the end, the only winning move as a forsaken is not to play.
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Aug 6, 2012 16:26
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Pimpmust posted:Heh, deleted a part before I posted about how Demandred was smarter than both of those two because he hadn't gotten himself infront of the Ta'veren crazy train at all yet. Yeah, but piss off the Dark One by not playing at your own risk, right? I'm not sure if Shaidar Haran is just 100% straight or it's just that the male Forsaken never live long enough to become his playthings.
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Aug 6, 2012 16:31
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I think it might have to do with the male forsaken being more willing to go head to head since they can see Rand's weaves and are probably confident that they are more competent channelers then Rand. They are pretty visible going after Rand, whereas the female forsaken know they are at a disadvantage head to head with Rand, so they try these much longer schemes that don't put them at as much risk. When a male forsaken fails, he dies, whereas the women don't, so they need to be punished for the failure a la Shadar Haren.
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Aug 6, 2012 16:48
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah, but piss off the Dark One by not playing at your own risk, right? I'm not sure if Shaidar Haran is just 100% straight or it's just that the male Forsaken never live long enough to become his playthings. Right, these are the expendable bad guys after all. Some of them are even smart enough to be self-aware of the fact (Semirhage, Graendal and Ishmael?). Got to keep a low profile and put in the minimum amount of work required which so far seem to have been "show up when the big guy tells you to and maybe put in a token fighting effort". Whatever it is Demandred is doing seems to be working pretty well on that front... "Oh? Well, feeling a little down here, yeah. Can't come in tomorrow. Total bummer, I know! A-army? What a- oh. Oh right, yeah "that" army. Sure. It's coming along really well. You did get the bills for all that booze right? Gotta have you cover those expenses, just sign under the dotted line there- right. Yeah, totally for those guys. I'm really 95% done here! The final battle? Sure, I'll be there. Honest. You know me, your top guy! See you around! *click* ...never thought he'd hang up, what baby? No no, nothing to worry about. Just the boss wondering why I called in sick for another month. Pass me another one of those drinks will you?"
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Aug 6, 2012 23:18
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api call girl posted:That's as may be, but look at the facts. It's made clear several times that sammael likes to turtle... he is a defensive specialist who is only at his best when he is defending a position.
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Aug 7, 2012 03:54
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The Lord Bude posted:It's made clear several times that sammael likes to turtle... he is a defensive specialist who is only at his best when he is defending a position. I think it's mentioned once, yes, but what's more apparent is that the other Forsaken (but especially Graendal) threw him under a bus. quote:Still Demandred kept silent, stood there studying them. No, not Graendal. Semirhage and her. And when he did speak, half to himself, it was to they two. “When I think where you two have placed yourselves, I wonder. How much has the Great Lord known, for how long? How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?” There was no answer to that. Finally, he said, “You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. But it stays here, held close. Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others, whether alive or dead. The first part of the Great Lord’s message was simple. ‘Let the Lord of Chaos rule.’ His words, exact.” The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him. Then he told them the rest. Graendal didn't bother informing Sammael of this meeting, then she told everyone else that Sammael wasn't coming.
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Aug 7, 2012 04:04
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api call girl posted:2) The assault on Illian is the farthest-out telegraphed attack in the entire running of the series, yet Sammael sat there like a lump and took it like a chump, despite being accounted one of the great Forsaken generals. Why? Apologies if I am mixing up names and events... I am in my second read-through, and I still can't keep a quarter of the names straight: Rand sent the Band to Illian by the slow road, to telegraph an attack and supposedly get Sammael out of position with the ol' okie-doke. Sammael sent a messenger to Rand to ask for a truce. The messenger was sweating and nervous and clearly was in distress. Rand told the messenger to tell Sammael to go gently caress himself, and the messenger... melted. That was how the messenger would deliver his message, his manner of death. One assumes that melting means "go gently caress yourself." Later, Sammael is talking to someone and says something to the effect of, "The way my messenger died, I know Rand accepted my truce, and I am safe!" SO. Was Sammael lying to whomever he was talking to... or did the messenger... in a feat of amazing self control.... mentally will himself to hear Rand accept the truce, which would cause himself to melt, which would give Sammael bad intel? This is possibly why Sammael stood still and got "taken out like a chump." Perhaps that messenger was some war hero general who realized the stakes. The forsaken love enslaving nobility and poo poo. If this is the case, then that unnamed messenger accomplished one of the biggest and most important feats of the series by loving over Sammael with bad information. Or, I could be mixing up names and events and what I just said is all bullshit.
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Aug 8, 2012 16:37
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I was under the impression that he was just bluffing to the other forsaken. If he convinced them they had a truce, then the others might have attempted a preemptive strike and taken the heat off Illian.
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Aug 8, 2012 16:44
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I got the impression he assumed Rand, being Lews Therin, had a hell of a temper, so if the messenger didn't die by Rand's hand by the end of the meeting, Rand clearly accepted.
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Aug 8, 2012 17:41
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veekie posted:I got the impression he assumed Rand, being Lews Therin, had a hell of a temper, so if the messenger didn't die by Rand's hand by the end of the meeting, Rand clearly accepted. I always assumed it was bravado as well, but this actually sounds plausible come to think of it.
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Aug 8, 2012 21:13
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He pretty clearly states that he was bluffing and manipulating Graendal in his little inner monologue after he leaves. I just read this chapter last night.
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Aug 8, 2012 22:46
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Don't give up thread! We've come so far, we can do it! Additional positive reinforcement! I'm halfway through Crossroads and it takes literal effort to just press play on the audio book. Must. Complete. Book. Sanderson material is so close!
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Aug 14, 2012 18:52
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Cartoon Man posted:Start with book 1 and have at it. Feel free to post your thoughts or questions. The majority of us are good about not spoiling things. I've now read half of New spring, and it's just not all that good. Should I just stop reading now and go for book 1? The book just keeps yapping on about Moiraine does this, Moiraine does that because of this... I always thought you had to show not tell? Exewu fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 19:33
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I read the first chapter and was just thought it was so blah I put it down and haven't touched it since. Honestly, I'll just hold out for the last book and read other stuff for now. Right before the last book comes out I'll skim the chapter summaries. ˅˅˅˅˅˅˅˅ I read it after everything and still just wasn't even slightly intrigued after the first chapter. Maybe I can give it another shot, but it just didn't catch me like the other books. Daedalus Esquire fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 20:39
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There's only a few points to be made about New Spring. You first get to witness the foretelling of the Dragon Reborn. You also get to finally see what the test for the shawl is like, it wont be shown again untill Nynaeve takes it in book 13. Then you get to see bitchy Cadsuane asking other Aes Sedai to pour her some tea. You learn a lot about Lan's backstory and how Malkieri handle relationships, marriage, and sex. You get to see the scene where Moiraine dumps a lake on Lan that was referenced way back in book 1. Finally Moiraine kills a member of the Black Ajah and then bonds Lan. They ride off into the sunset looking for the Dragon Reborn. Its honestly written for the fans of the series and is not meant to be read first. If its your first introduction to the Wheel of Time, you wont care about any of this at all because you wont be as invested in the characters as the rest of us were because we had already read up to book Cartoon Man fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 22:42
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Cartoon Man posted:There's only a few points to be made about New Spring. You first get to witness the foretelling of the Dragon Reborn. You also get to finally see what the test for the shawl is like, it wont be shown again untill Nynaeve takes it in book 13. Then you get to see bitchy Cadsuane asking other Aes Sedai to pour her some tea. You learn a lot about Lan's backstory and how Malkieri handle relationships, marriage, and sex. You get to see the scene where Moiraine dumps a lake on Lan that was referenced way back in book 1. Finally Moiraine kills a member of the Black Ajah and then bonds Lan. They ride off into the sunset looking for the Dragon Reborn. Sorry, don't want to be pedantic, but it was published after book 10. That's when I plan on reading it although I'm worried that going book 9, 10, then New Spring might suppress my will to live.
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Aug 14, 2012 23:09
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AreYouStillThere posted:Sorry, don't want to be pedantic, but it was published after book 10. That's when I plan on reading it although I'm worried that going book 9, 10, then New Spring might suppress my will to live. Being even more pedantic, the original novella was published after TPOD then expanded to novel length after COT.
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Aug 14, 2012 23:55
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Jedit posted:Being even more pedantic, the original novella was published after TPOD then expanded to novel length after COT. And by expanded, we mean adding in lots more tea pouring, sniffing, and pillow friend shenanagins.
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Aug 15, 2012 00:20
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Finished Towers of Midnight the other day, can barely wait for the last book. Verin returns from the dead! Mat creates the first six-shooter! Moiraine learns how to train dogs from Valan Luca's circus!
Somebody fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 18, 2012 04:46
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You should probably spoiler that poo poo in this thread.
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Aug 18, 2012 15:39
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I realize this lets read thing is derailed and desynched to hell and back and everyone's at a different point in the series but come on, really?
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Aug 18, 2012 22:26
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Willie Tomg posted:I realize this lets read thing is derailed and desynched to hell and back and everyone's at a different point in the series but come on, really? I'll grant that it's been a couple years since I read ToM, but I'm pretty sure he was joking.
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Aug 22, 2012 05:35
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Hobbes24 posted:I'll grant that it's been a couple years since I read ToM, but I'm pretty sure he was joking. Even joking about what happens is spoilerish because in order for it to be an effective joke you have to accept that the presuppositions are true: 1) Verin has to die in order to come back from death, I don't think we're to TGS yet 2) Mat creates gunpowder-based weapons, that doesn't happen until ToM 3) Moiraine, off-screen and "presumed dead" until the end of ToM
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Aug 22, 2012 14:36
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I'm just wrapping up TFoH right now and I really think it has possibly the strongest finish in the entire series. Even measured against Dumai's Wells.
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Aug 29, 2012 02:10
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About 1/3 through Path of Daggers on audiobook. Part of me finds it really frustrating that it is pretty much all Aes Sedai stuff. The workings of these ladies can be maddening at times. They're all so catty and rude and overly prim and bitchy. It can be really frustrating to sit and listen to that, even when occupied by driving. But then cool stuff happens around them like using the bowl of the winds and the seanchan invansion. swear to god though, somebody in that world needs to invent a vibrator or something. Those ladies are all WAAAAAYYYYY too uptight.
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Sep 1, 2012 02:30
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