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MadScientistWorking posted:Because your damage sucks if you don't have a composite bow. Hell just go ranged throwing weapons.
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Aug 20, 2012 15:56
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It may not be super impressive amounts of damage, but it's a lot better than twiddling your thumbs when the enemy is unreachable for melee attacks. There are classes that struggle to do that much damage in their primary combat style, even.
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Aug 20, 2012 16:41
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veekie posted:I'm thinking with the Divine Bond, you could save money on the most expensive part of the weapon, masterworking + enchantment. Just buy a composite bow +4 and attack with Dex + Cha + BAB, for Level damage. Why in hell would you waste your 1/day Divine Bond on a bow you aren't even any good with? Similarly with smite: you only get two uses per day at 6th, so why would you waste them on your crappy arrow shots that aren't likely hit even with the bonus? Slashrat posted:It may not be super impressive amounts of damage, but it's a lot better than twiddling your thumbs when the enemy is unreachable for melee attacks. There are classes that struggle to do that much damage in their primary combat style, even. Anyway, that's what buying a Quall's Feather Token Whip or Necklace of Fireballs or even just some thrown splash-style items like alchemist's fire flasks or tanglefoot bags. A ranged touch attack is way better than a regular ranged attack. Piell fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 16:42
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Slashrat posted:It may not be super impressive amounts of damage, but it's a lot better than twiddling your thumbs when the enemy is unreachable for melee attacks. There are classes that struggle to do that much damage in their primary combat style, even. EDIT: As a side note. Alchemists are freaking overpowered. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 16:58
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Kabanaw posted:But the paladin didn't wait at all for the old man. He told him they'll wait for them on the shore, teleported to the boat, then almost immediately booked it , because his DM told him that if he waited his friends would Permanently Die.
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Aug 20, 2012 17:52
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veekie posted:I'm thinking with the Divine Bond, you could save money on the most expensive part of the weapon, masterworking + enchantment. Just buy a composite bow +4 and attack with Dex + Cha + BAB, for Level damage. Because if the bow is already +1 you can use Divine Bond make it Fiery or Merciful (or Holy when you hit 8th, or Speed when you hit 11th), instead of "only" giving it a +1. I like Merciful a lot, makes all the damage non-lethal. You'd think a Paladin would have used that once or twice. The Paladin in question has a 18 STR, 14 DEX, 20 CHA, and is 6th level. With a +1 Longbow and Smite and Divine Bond (Fiery) he's shooting at +14/+9 for 1d8+7 + 1d6 Fire (or NL). If the creature is a Dragon or Evil Outsider, it's 1d8+13 + 1d6 Fire on the first shot. At 8th, that 1d6 fire becomes 2d6 Holy for free, if you want. And that's not even a composite bow, which could get him up to +4 damage each hit if he wanted to spare the cash. I understand this is money he doesn't need to spend, but he passed up a +1 Longbow that dropped earlier, and the party sold it. Hope that 250gp after the 4-way split was worth it! Like I said, though, thematically it's awesome and I applaud him for sticking to it. However, the fact that he literally sat around doing nothing but healing himself (not even healing the others!) during the fight with the BBEG is one reason why two party members died. When she killed them with her last fireball, she had 8 HP remaining, which is the minimum damage his Paladin with a +1 bow would do in 1 round. Hilariously, this seems to go against his "I'm playing a game!" argument. If he was just playing a game, he'd have a bow by now. After seeing how that fight went, he'll probably get one anyway.
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Aug 20, 2012 18:01
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Piell posted:Why in hell would you waste your 1/day Divine Bond on a bow you aren't even any good with? Similarly with smite: you only get two uses per day at 6th, so why would you waste them on your crappy arrow shots that aren't likely hit even with the bonus? Because the BBEG is 50' above you and not coming down any time soon, and your Wizard slotted more Fireballs than Fly spells that day.
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Aug 20, 2012 18:03
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Inverse Icarus posted:Because the BBEG is 50' above you and not coming down any time soon, and your Wizard slotted more Fireballs than Fly spells that day. quote:The Paladin in question has a 18 STR, 14 DEX, 20 CHA, and is 6th level. With a +1 Longbow and Smite and Divine Bond (Fiery) he's shooting at +14/+9 for 1d8+7 + 1d6 Fire (or NL). If the creature is a Dragon or Evil Outsider, it's 1d8+13 + 1d6 Fire on the first shot. At 8th, that 1d6 fire becomes 2d6 Holy for free, if you want. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 18:12
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Inverse Icarus posted:Because the BBEG is 50' above you and not coming down any time soon, and your Wizard slotted more Fireballs than Fly spells that day. You're the DM. Why did you put the BBEG fifty feet in the air, and not give the paladin any way to get to him?
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Aug 20, 2012 18:14
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Inverse Icarus posted:Like I said, he's "playing a game." Not a roleplaying game, just a game. He's playing World of Warcraft but with more things he can do and a more interactive story where he can talk with a pirate voice. And he's terrified of losing. No offence, and I hate to be pessimistic, but I think you're screwed. What you are most likely to make here if you aren't careful is a martyr. You'll get bitterness, snide under the breath grumbling and a 'Why is the GM picking on me?" poo poo. Be careful not to single him out, make the abandoned paladin mad at the 'party' in general, with maybe a specific grudge against the party paladin. I would suggest avoiding most (not all) attempts to single him out. Its even better if you can single out one of the other characters on occasion as well, cause it sounds like this guy will get a persecution complex fast. And, oddly enough in his eyes he'll be entirely correct. It seems he is completely incapable of understanding the morality you have set forth or at least, chooses not to, so anything that he does is 'justified' to him. You'll prolly never break that at all and any attempts to single him out for his actions will, to him, seem to be you carrying a petty grudge and being a dick cause you aren't letting him play the game 'his way' and attempting to ruin his fun.
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Aug 20, 2012 18:15
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Piell posted:Why in hell would you waste your 1/day Divine Bond on a bow you aren't even any good with? Similarly with smite: you only get two uses per day at 6th, so why would you waste them on your crappy arrow shots that aren't likely hit even with the bonus? Last I checked, PF Smite Evil has the clause "The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability." and doesn't stipulate that you use the same weapon all the time. If the BBEG isn't worth a Smite Evil under those rules, nothing is. Piell posted:If you're a character who relies on weapons you can't do more than 1d8 damage a hit at 6th level you should kill your character off and make something that isn't totally incompetent. Seriously, name one goddamn class that's doing 1d8 damage (at -8 to hit) in their primary combat style at 6th level. I was commenting on veekie's suggestion. Doing 1d8+Level(+Str if you splurged for a mundane composite bow) damage at an AB of BAB+Dex+Cha is decent for a non-specialized secondary combat style and only slightly worse than what the average archery ranger would be doing under those circumstances. (And hell, a rogue would have been utterly boned even if specialized in ranged combat) Slashrat fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 18:25
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Augure posted:Of course, it's worth noting that you fully intend to have the guy not covered in molten gold. I guess the paladin was right after all and Grizzly McOldCrazy could find his way out to them. If only the uncaring, objective, impartial arbiter of the universe hadn't decided that it would happen just too late for him to be able to save his dead friends as well. Kabanaw posted:But the paladin didn't wait at all for the old man. He told him they'll wait for them on the shore, teleported to the boat, then almost immediately booked it. If he had waited 8 hours, watched the island melt down, then decided it was too late, then you have a point, but he didn't wait at all. Augure posted:, because his DM told him that if he waited his friends would Permanently Die. As written in the adventure, and what was known to the PCs, that man is dead. The city floods with molten gold for several days, and only a small area is above the "fill line." Even there, the temperature shoots up hilariously because of all the molten gold in the city, and it's effectively high altitude because of all the lost oxygen. When it starts flooding, the giant stone doors to the underground city shut, and cannot be opened without the Key to Xin-Grafar, which they teleported out with. The book also says that the doors can only be opened once every 10 years, but I'm ignoring that. This is all one top of the fact that they left him there with no food (he was sharing their rations), or any magical resistance to heat. The NPC was also alone on this island for 20 years, and very obviously insane. He was yelping and babbling incoherently the entire time he was with the party, shouting that the darkness was coming to take him, and the Cleric suggested leaving him outside the city. But the Paladin wanted to take him into the city, so he could protect him. Up until the point where he abandoned him in there. There is no reason, as written, for him to be alive, or for the party to even be able to enter the city to find his body for 10 years. Assuming a Babau demon or Wraith doesn't kill him, or that to escape the heat he tries to go into the room the party teleported out of, past the Naga. The party was aware of all of this except the 10 years thing. They almost died several times getting through the city, one person alone, with a broken longbow and buckler stands none. If I decide to let him live it will be because something amazing happened, like a powerful undead possessed his body and pushed on, or the island itself "swallowed" him somehow and spat him out, finding his Paladin energies distasteful. However it's done, he will certainly not be the same person if he survives, and I'm leaning that way. The player did not know how Raise Dead worked, and how there's essentially a timer on the number of days. That is inconsequential to my argument against his morality of his decision to teleport out without the NPC, but we're past that. When he got to the boat he didn't even ask how the spell worked, or how long heis allies had, he immediately set to sailing off. We explained the rules after we finished the session, when he had committed to his course of action. There is no way that the Paladin did not think he was leaving that man to die there. None. All of the information was available to him and the rest of the party. The Cleric was blowing up my private skype window asking what was going on. We have a Google Group where we discuss things between sessions, and the Paladin player posted this last night. Roedarc is the Paladin, Ghiven is the Dragon Disciple, Dusan is the NPC they left to die. quote:Roedarc will want to leave immediately even though it means leaving Dusan behind. The way I plan to play it is that Roedarc was very emotionally distressed by the deaths and he and Ghiven didn't plan well under the pressure. He didn't realize he would have to leave immediately until after the plan with Dusan had been made and the teleport had been done. Furthermore Dusan is a paladin (or at least still is as far as Roedarc is concerned) and paladins are used to putting the lives of others in front of their own so Roedarc would expect that Dusan would understand and agree with the decision. He probably won't, but that's what Roedarc's thinking. Also Dusan has survived on that island on his own for many years before. That bold italic part nearly killed me to read, after he's essentially sacrificed two people to save himself. Hilarious.
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Aug 20, 2012 18:26
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Space Gopher posted:You're the DM. Why did you put the BBEG fifty feet in the air, and not give the paladin any way to get to him? The Wizard had Fly slotted that day, but used it on himself while fighting another monster. Am I supposed to tailor every encounter, as it begins, accounting for all the spells that the party had but used up? Should I have taken Fly away from the BBEG and have her stand there while the Paladin smites her for 1d10+10 damage with every hit? She had no way to escape the room other than her scroll of Teleport, which I intentionally had her not use so the PCs could escape the city before they all died. If she wasn't flying the fight would have ended on turn 2, before she cast a single spell. If he had a bow and she was flying, it probably would have lasted a turn more than that.
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Aug 20, 2012 18:30
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Slashrat posted:The player did not know how Raise Dead worked, and how there's essentially a timer on the number of days. That is inconsequential to my argument against his morality of his decision to teleport out without the NPC, but we're past that. When he got to the boat he didn't even ask how the spell worked, or how long heis allies had, he immediately set to sailing off. We explained the rules after we finished the session, when he had committed to his course of action. Inverse Icarus posted:The Wizard had Fly slotted that day, but used it on himself while fighting another monster. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 18:31
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MadScientistWorking posted:This really sounds incredibly dumb though. You seriously are suggesting that any rational person would stop to think about how long their friends have as rotting corpses. In a world where people can come back from the dead, and the magic is very clearly defined, with thousands of years of "development" and "research"? Yes. And even if he didn't know, didn't consider it, does a few minutes getting back to the NPC, or having him come to you, or trying to kill the Naga change anything? Minutes? Really? He got out of dodge the first second he could, after taking the time to cast Sending to tell the NPC he'd wait for him at the boat. MadScientistWorking posted:Fifty feet up in the air is moronic no matter how you cut it. Even my character which is an accidentally over optimized ranged character is utterly useless at 50 ft. Are you throwing shuriken or something? Or... god help you... Are you a gunslinger?
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Aug 20, 2012 18:36
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Inverse Icarus posted:Are you throwing shuriken or something? MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 18:49
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Separate problems here. Just because something is wrong(alignment for example) does not mean something going against it is right. In this case, the group has not only entered the game with the assumption of alignments being in play, but the player in question is insisting on alignment, but only wants the benefits without the costs. The issue seems clear enough. The escape itself seems just confused and weird. An enemy which had not proven to be particularly dangerous previously is avoided by the fleeing party without one of their subgoals? For what its worth I could see the scenario being a simple case of the player in question not wanting to risk any encounter at all with a player down. To clarify, its just the Naga and the NPC beyond the PCs? Nothing which would hinder an escape after retrieving the NPC? Low level parties routinely pack alternate attack modes, which granted, are less effective than primary, but more effective than nothing, particularly when insufficient resources are available to fully invest. Paladins in particular do well as long as they wish to, and can smite the target, but even spellcasters regularly pack some kind of low-proficiency missile weapon like crossbows so they won't be standing there and doing nothing. And finally, consequences. There jolly well should be consequences, good and bad alike, for anything significant the party does. This is their impact on the game world, and one of the best ways to get them involved, by hooking into past activities. Anything more significant than taking a dump is improved and made more memorable just by having a future event depend on it. Ignoring direct divine consequences(which have too much of a personal and irresistable component to it), there can be social consequences(if word gets out) and more direct ones like the anguished and insane undead arising from the betrayal. Narrative wise, its the kind of betrayal deathknights are made of.
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Aug 20, 2012 19:09
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veekie posted:And finally, consequences. There jolly well should be consequences, good and bad alike, for anything significant the party does. This is their impact on the game world, and one of the best ways to get them involved, by hooking into past activities. Anything more significant than taking a dump is improved and made more memorable just by having a future event depend on it. The idea of a Deathknight with a personal grudge against the party sounds particularly awesome. If I ever play a game, I'm now tempted to screw over a paladin NPC, just to have my own personal deathknight after me. That would make for awesome (and miserable oh god I'm screwed) storylines. Fun fun. The crux of Inverse Icarus's problem though has very little to do with encounter design. At its core it sounds like he has a player that is trying to do alignment similar to the way Bioware handles it in video games. Do good, do bad, but as long as you have enough +'s to stay on the 'light' side, its all good and so are you.
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Aug 20, 2012 19:20
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MadScientistWorking posted:Here is a legitimate question. What the hell would you have done if you met someone who was legitimately optimized? It is a struggle to balance play with optimized characters and new ones in the same group. In mine, we have one veteran (15+ years) and two people with less than a year under their belt, and one who is literally playing his first character. No one in the party is optimized, so it hasn't really come up. The veteran is playing a Cleric with 7 CON because he rolled one lovely stat and wanted to RP a frail character who was touched by a Wraith. The only thing close to "optimized" is that the Wizard is an Evocation specialist with Toppling Magic Missile and the trait that gives him +1 CL on Magic Missile. We were playing it wrong for a few meetings, letting his bonus damage from being an Evocation specialist apply to all missiles. That was getting out of hand quick. Even after you guys pointed out that only the first missile gets +3 damage, being able to launch 4 missiles a round, all of which automatically hit try to trip from 160' away with a caster level check (he has a +11), is pretty awesome. That was "dealt" with by having one of the enemies in the dungeon having the Shield spell on him. Only one enemy, and the Wizard made an easy Spellcraft check to know why it didn't work. I didn't do this to kick him in the nuts and laugh, I wanted to point out that his bread and butter is easily negated by anyone with that spell or a Brooch of Shielding. He was seriously slotting like 4 magic missiles and 2 Toppling ones (as 2nd level spells). Before getting to the dungeon proper, he was a rockstar shooting magic missiles all over and just decimating skeletons or whatever. A bunch of the enemies were also demons and had resist fire and electricity, so he got to experience that as well. These are things veterans take for granted, and new players won't seek out the rules for "what counters magic missiles" on their own. Now the player knows, he'll always remember, and maybe he slots in such a way as to not be a one trick pony. The Dragon Disciple is beginning to worry me, with his Enlarge Person Bull's Strength three power attacks at full BAB and +0 Frost Amulet of Mighty Fists. His claw is B/S, and his bite is B/P/S, but they're not magical, silvered, or anything like that yet, so DR should help combat the destruction he can lay down, and he can only use his claws and spells a few times a day. That only seems to matter if they don't rest often, which they have been apt to do. The DD is friends with the veteran player, and it's fairly obvious he had a bunch of "help" picking spells, feats, and traits, like Magical Knack to help offset the two "lost" sorcerer spell levels when taking DD. I'm not too worried, but he's on my radar, and if I was designing encounters from scratch, I'd throw in a few to really challenge him. I want to state again that I'm not sitting in a dark room coming up with ways to piss on the players. I'm not cackling madly thinking up ways for the Paladin to fall, or how to make one of the PCs completely ineffective in a particular combat. The players have been able to use their abilities in creative ways to overcome challenges, and I applaud that whole-heartedly. I ruled the Paladin's Divine Bond countered a Babau's Darkness ability, because there wasn't another way they were doing it, and it needed to get done. To get past the Naga, who was in a 30' deep pit that was 15' wide, the Enlarged Dragon Disciple jumped across the gap. The Paladin (who was also enlarged from a potion) handed the other PCs to the DD across the pit, while the Naga shot Lightning Bolts at them. They were able to get everyone across, and then the Paladin said "And now I want to grab Ghiven's hands, and dismiss the Enlarge." That's a creative, innovative use of the spell. The Paladin wouldn't be jumping across that or making a climb check to use the rope, not with his no ranks in Acrobatics or Climb and his armor check penalty, and they worked out a way that was fun and made sense. It was 15' across, they could reach each other in the middle. He shrunk, his arms still held by the DD, and he was pulled across. That's awesome.
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Aug 20, 2012 19:23
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veekie posted:The escape itself seems just confused and weird. An enemy which had not proven to be particularly dangerous previously is avoided by the fleeing party without one of their subgoals? For what its worth I could see the scenario being a simple case of the player in question not wanting to risk any encounter at all with a player down. To clarify, its just the Naga and the NPC beyond the PCs? Nothing which would hinder an escape after retrieving the NPC? Correct, it was just the one Dark Naga. They could have killed the Naga, or attempted to move past it, or had the NPC come to them, across the Naga pit, and then use the Teleport scroll. I'm not saying it would have been easy. The Naga is a CR 8, but it shot 4 Lightning Bolts and one Scorching Ray the party saw. His "big" spells were pretty much tapped, but he had a bunch of weaker ones left, including Magic Missile at CL 7, which is 4 missiles a round. This would be negated on the DD by the Wand of Shield the dead Wizard had, that the DD could have used. Even without spells, if they fell into the pit, the Naga's melee isn't a joke with that poison that's effectively save or die. He'd still need to roll an 18+ to hit the Paladin, but he couldn't know that. Crossing the pit with two corpses without engaging the Naga was not likely to happen, either. The Party was mostly tapped out, and two of them were dead. The DD was out of spells other than 2 level 1 spells, the offensive one being Burning Hands (5d4+6 damage). He dismissed his Enlarge while fighting the BBEG, to increase his AC, but still had his claws and bite ready to go. The Paladin had his Divine Bond ability left, but no Smites. He had several Lay on Hands left, and they had a hilarious amount of potions. 2 CSWs, a few CMWs, and literally more than a dozen CLWs. Again, if he had a bow, he could have shot from the doorway into the pit, backed off, and drank potions. It was painfully obvious that it was bound to that room, and I said as much to the players. They could have tried to kill it, or at least distract it while the NPC tried to cross the gap. However, there was no guarantee this would work, that the NPC wouldn't fall into the pit and be murdered, or that the Naga didn't have one more lightning bolt or a volley of magic missiles for someone climbing across. Still, they didn't try anything. The Paladin player was afraid. That's all it comes down to. The Paladin was afraid and left someone to die because of it.
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Aug 20, 2012 19:36
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veekie posted:Separate problems here. Just because something is wrong(alignment for example) does not mean something going against it is right. In this case, the group has not only entered the game with the assumption of alignments being in play, but the player in question is insisting on alignment, but only wants the benefits without the costs. The issue seems clear enough. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 19:38
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Mao posted:The idea of a Deathknight with a personal grudge against the party sounds particularly awesome. If I ever play a game, I'm now tempted to screw over a paladin NPC, just to have my own personal deathknight after me. That would make for awesome (and miserable oh god I'm screwed) storylines. Fun fun. Pretty much. This is all complicated by the fact that the Paladin was not sent on this mission by his church, or anything like that. He was paid to do this. When they encountered the BBEG, she did not engage them for several rounds, asking them to leave and let her work. She was playing with an artifact in her hands, trying to figure it out. When the combat started, her back was to them. He didn't even blink, smote her, which is when she flew away, shouting that she has no idea who they are, why they came, what they think she's doing here, or why they believe anything they've heard about her. The DD and Cleric were taken aback by her comments. The DD had joined the party for this adventure, and wasn't familiar with the Church of Razmir, and started asking in character why they were killing this unarmed woman, and the Cleric of Sarenrae tried to start talking to her, because he loves redeeming people. Then the Paladin threw a harpoon at her, and she started lobbing Fireballs.
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Aug 20, 2012 19:42
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Inverse Icarus posted:Pretty much. What is this player's background? Is his only experience literally video games where you kill the big baddie and roll the credits? Where breaking into every room in every house and stealing everything that isn't nailed down is not only accepted, but expected (and gives no penalties)?
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Aug 20, 2012 19:59
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Mao posted:What is this player's background? Is his only experience literally video games where you kill the big baddie and roll the credits? Where breaking into every room in every house and stealing everything that isn't nailed down is not only accepted, but expected (and gives no penalties)? He has played WoW and other MMOs for a very long time, this is the first "real" time he's played an RPG like this. He's played Skyrim a bit, and SW:TOR. In both of those games, he was a good character. He was playing a Sith Inquisitor with my Sith Juggernaut, and literally chose every single "good" option he could, even if the "bad" answer was better strategically, or more interesting story-wise. This was partially because there were rewards for picking a side (light or dark), but he also took pride in his choices, and mocked us whenever he won a "conversation roll" and forced the entire party to take a "good" action. He knows how a Paladin "should" act, and is capable of doing it. He's also an aspiring writer, so... Inverse Icarus fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 20:03
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He also refused to play horde in WoW because they were "evil." Really, a Paladin or LG Cleric is exactly the right character for him, but for some reason he's acting completely opposite to everything he's ever done so far. If "Leave Dusan Dremlock behind in the city +100 Dark Side" and "Fight your way to him +100 Light Side" were options in SW:TOR I know exactly what he'd pick, but death didn't mean anything to him. It still doesn't. He's now arguing that his order would employ a Paladin with the Ultimate Mercy feat, so all raises should be free. He claims "I could design a level 6 Paladin that could cast Raise Dead for free, so one must exist." I'm trying to explain how horribly that changes the world, where one man with enough time could raise an entire village for free, and how that's hilariously overpowered. I also added that a Paladin that "dove" for that ability would be fairly useless in combat, and that the required 19 CHA is hilariously high for a run-of-the-mill NPC. I basically said "No, that's a player-only feat, or reserved for extremely high level Paladins, and no one you know has gone down that path." Inverse Icarus fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 20:10
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Inverse Icarus posted:He also refused to play horde in WoW because they were "evil." MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 20:13
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Inverse Icarus posted:Should I have taken Fly away from the BBEG and have her stand there while the Paladin smites her for 1d10+10 damage with every hit? She had no way to escape the room other than her scroll of Teleport, which I intentionally had her not use so the PCs could escape the city before they all died. Should Batman and the Joker not just whip out glocks and settle their whole beef one way or another in thirty seconds? Should Goldfinger not just point his laser at James Bond's head, rather than slowly move it up the table? Should the Empire not have executed the smugglers poking around their top-secret superweapon as spies? Yes, you should have taken Fly from the evil wizard, or given the paladin some way to get to her. Make her flight spell powered by a couple of breakable magic crystals on the ground, or just ground her and give her some extra hit points. The important thing is to tell a good story. Part of that is making sure that every character in the party has some role to play, and nobody ever ends up all "welp, nothing I can really do here." In a lot of stories (especially the pulp-fantasy and D&D-as-a-genre stuff 3.5/Pathfinder emulates), characters don't do the obviously logical thing, because that would ruin the story.
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Aug 20, 2012 20:16
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I'm drawing a really hard line on his trying to raise for free. He'll be paying 10,000gp+ for his allies to be raised. Death has to mean something. They can't sail back to this "Golden Paladin" every time someone dies.
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Aug 20, 2012 20:19
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Space Gopher posted:Should Batman and the Joker not just whip out glocks and settle their whole beef one way or another in thirty seconds? Should Goldfinger not just point his laser at James Bond's head, rather than slowly move it up the table? Should the Empire not have executed the smugglers poking around their top-secret superweapon as spies? Does Batman punch the joker in the back of the head while he's trying to talk to him? Doesn't like every encounter Batman is in start with him talking to the bad guy? Doesn't he work with the villains, sometimes, and cut them slack when they're not being total assholes? (I honestly don't know, I haven't read the comics, only seen the movies, but he doesn't often just jump in and start beating on them from what I've seen) The other two examples are arguably "bad" people. Goldfinger could easily murder James Bond. The Empire should kill spies on sight. Space Gopher posted:Yes, you should have taken Fly from the evil wizard, or given the paladin some way to get to her. Make her flight spell powered by a couple of breakable magic crystals on the ground, or just ground her and give her some extra hit points. Hrm. That's a valid point, but I still disagree. The Wizard's Fly spell wasn't powered by crystals on the floor. The Resist Energy they all had on them wasn't either. Why should the BBEG be limited and the PCs not? She's already hosed in the economy of actions, and now we're discussing tying her abilities to something the PCs can take away easily? Aren't these fights supposed to be epic? Aren't they supposed to feel like they achieved something when they win? If she didn't fly, she would have been dead before she cast or drew a weapon. The Paladin and Dragon Disciple would have seen to that. They could have packed Dispel, they didn't. They could have packed more Fly spells instead of multiple Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. The Wizard could have made scrolls of Fly during previous days, but he was spending his downtime making Belts and Headbands for the party. They knew they were entering the final encounters of the dungeon, I made sure of it. They chose not to rest and re-slot, the veteran included, and they went in with what they had. I don't think the encounter should be tweaked to accomodate the party's choices like that. She flies. She doesn't not fly, or have her Fly spell broken by attacking a crystal on the ground because they didn't slot spells that could fight a flying enemy, or the Paladin didn't have a bow. Inverse Icarus fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 20:29
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Space Gopher posted:Should Batman and the Joker not just whip out glocks and settle their whole beef one way or another in thirty seconds? Should Goldfinger not just point his laser at James Bond's head, rather than slowly move it up the table? Should the Empire not have executed the smugglers poking around their top-secret superweapon as spies? I don't know the whole run of the adventure or the leadup prior to this battle etc, but I am perfectly ok with the PCs losing a battle if it still leads to them having the ability to 'win the war' in a later matchup. Is this evil caster going to show up again? Have they failed to catch her this time, but now she's going to come back? Are there ramifications to her research that are going to cause the PCs to have to go hunt her down? In this case, I'm perfectly ok with them failing to defeat her. Especially as next time they'll have a better idea what to expect. Bring some long range firepower and a way to deal with her flying. Played right this can spin off further adventures and sorta hook the PCs into having themselves invested in the adventure instead of just fighting random baddie of the day.
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Aug 20, 2012 20:29
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Mao posted:I don't know the whole run of the adventure or the leadup prior to this battle etc, but I am perfectly ok with the PCs losing a battle if it still leads to them having the ability to 'win the war' in a later matchup. Is this evil caster going to show up again? Have they failed to catch her this time, but now she's going to come back? Are there ramifications to her research that are going to cause the PCs to have to go hunt her down? If they just ran away, the city would have filled with molten gold, and the doors to the city would be locked, and the BBEG would still have the key, inside the city. She was an elf and brought with her a Ring of Sustenance. She was going to sit in that room for upwards of hundreds of years, trying to unlock the secret of the artifact she was holding. The party would have never heard from her again, but they couldn't have known that. They also would have "failed" their mission to stop her, and we know how important missions are to the Paladin.
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Aug 20, 2012 20:35
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Inverse Icarus posted:Does Batman punch the joker in the back of the head while he's trying to talk to him? Doesn't like every encounter Batman is in start with him talking to the bad guy? Doesn't he work with the villains, sometimes, and cut them slack when they're not being total assholes? (I honestly don't know, I haven't read the comics, only seen the movies, but he doesn't often just jump in and start beating on them from what I've seen) quote:Hrm. That's a valid point, but I still disagree. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 20:50
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MadScientistWorking posted:Batman's cold cocked people in the face before without little to no provocation so its not entirely without precedence. I wouldn't really consider Batman as a candidate for 'Paladin' either though. Just bring the elf evil wizard woman and her magical artifact back in a later story thread. Have a 'rematch' of sorts. If you /really/ want to be a dick (this is always good) make it so that her artifact and research save the day somehow and they have to go find recruit/save her during a mission. Or, if that would go over poorly, just schedule a rematch. Make her a little stronger and hopefuly the PCs will be a little smarter/prepared and bear a grudge.
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Aug 20, 2012 20:57
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Inverse Icarus posted:Does Batman punch the joker in the back of the head while he's trying to talk to him? Doesn't like every encounter Batman is in start with him talking to the bad guy? Doesn't he work with the villains, sometimes, and cut them slack when they're not being total assholes? (I honestly don't know, I haven't read the comics, only seen the movies, but he doesn't often just jump in and start beating on them from what I've seen) When I talk about the Joker and Goldfinger and the Empire, I'm drawing a connection to your choices in setting up the encounter and running the bad guys. In all three cases, the villains don't do the "logical" thing because it would hurt the story. And yes, there's a big difference story-wise between cold-cocking a dude to knock him out, and just whipping out a gun and shooting him. In the first one, at the end of the day, the character's still around and swearing vengeance for next Saturday's episode. In the second one, he's just dead. As for the epic showdown thing, it's supposed to be a challenge, and the players are supposed to feel like they've accomplished something at the end of it. At the end, they should either feel like they all contributed to a massive rear end-kicking, or gave it everything they had but didn't quite make it. You locked one player out of that, win or lose, because you didn't like the way he set up his character. And, well, I hate to break it to you, but the wizard doesn't actually fly. She doesn't actually do anything at all. Just like the Joker, Goldfinger, and Darth Vader, she's a fictional character in a story. It's up to you, the DM, to make that story satisfying and interesting for your players.
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Aug 20, 2012 21:05
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Mao posted:I wouldn't really consider Batman as a candidate for 'Paladin' either though. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 21:06
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Inverse Icarus posted:I'm drawing a really hard line on his trying to raise for free. He'll be paying 10,000gp+ for his allies to be raised. Make them pay the listed cost for the raise dead spell, + about 30%. They can attempt to negotiate, and let that +30 add or lose an amount equal to the difference in haggling checks (usually diplomacy or profession:something that would haggle) if you want the standard pricing. What's the base cost of raise dead? 10k sounds cheap to raise 2 people for some reason. You could also have the clerics temple raise the cleric at a discount if he's been a good servant of the temple, or you could always trade favors and obligations instead of gold if he's just adamant about not paying. If he takes too much time haggling have the person he's haggling with remind him that he only has x days left, and raise the overall price 2-5% a day until either they can't be raised or he pays. He's in a negotiation situation where the other person has all the power, and it's a good opportunity to play good people in as mercenary a fashion as he's been playing his.
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Aug 20, 2012 21:43
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Space Gopher posted:And, well, I hate to break it to you, but the wizard doesn't actually fly. She doesn't actually do anything at all. Just like the Joker, Goldfinger, and Darth Vader, she's a fictional character in a story. It's up to you, the DM, to make that story satisfying and interesting for your players. I'm kinda with him on this one. Every cleric/wizard should pack a dispel magic or two, just in case. Part of attempting balance of action in d20 games involves making casters take spells that are suboptimal just in case so they don't trivialize encounters. Granted, he's admitted his casters aren't optimized, but they still should have a dispel magic between the two of them.
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Aug 20, 2012 21:45
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TheAnomaly posted:I'm kinda with him on this one. Every cleric/wizard should pack a dispel magic or two, just in case. Part of attempting balance of action in d20 games involves making casters take spells that are suboptimal just in case so they don't trivialize encounters. Granted, he's admitted his casters aren't optimized, but they still should have a dispel magic between the two of them. To me the caster's power comes from this utility. The fighter can swing his sword just as well as you can cast some damaging spells, but I would like to see him dispel magic, give the entire party haste, buff, etc. It's only suboptimal if you look at the game as a series of combat encounters. Hell in many cases "utility spells" like dispel magic and stoneshape are incredibly useful in the middle of a battle.
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Aug 20, 2012 21:52
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veekie posted:Paladins in PF actually make extremely good mixed-style fighters due to how weapon-neutral Smite and Divine Bond are. You could turn a lawn chair into a credible weapon with a moment's effort if you wanted. Now I kind of want to play a Paladin who's a kind hearted drunk, and take the Catch off Guard, Throw Anything, and Improvised Weapon Mastery feats. Grab a cup. Smite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx1XhlPIeEM
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Aug 20, 2012 23:33
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Inverse Icarus posted:Now I kind of want to play a Paladin who's a kind hearted drunk, and take the Catch off Guard, Throw Anything, and Improvised Weapon Mastery feats. I remember reading about someone doing this but wielding a ladder for reach and higher dmg. "Jacobs ladder" and "Stairway to heaven" jokes were made.
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Aug 21, 2012 00:17
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