Chantilly Say posted:

In short: Don't blame soldiers for following orders. Blame the people at the top for making bad decisions.

ekuNNN posted:

Following orders that you know to be for a bad cause is still wrong. No, soldiers are not all bad people, and you do have to take into account the system that made them join the military. This doesn't excuse the fact that they're participating in offensive wars that have cost the lives of thousands of innocent civilians. I was just following orders has never been and will never be a meaningful excuse.

Crasscrab posted:

The number of convicts allowed to join the US military actually increased when the Pentagon was having trouble with its recruitment numbers back in 2004-2007 when the military became bogged down in Iraq.

quote:

Last year, the active-duty Army and Marine Corps brought in about 80,000 and 35,000 active-duty recruits, respectively; the number of 2007 recruits with felony conviction waivers amounted to less than 1 percent of the total soldiers and Marines recruited that year.

quote:

This image is a photograph of astronaut Ed White during a spacewalk. It is part of the image collection on the Voyager Golden Record that is being carried into deep space aboard the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft. The low quality and resolution is due to the limitations of the format used on the record but it is what will be seen by an extraterrestrial intelligent life form if the probes ever get discovered.

Crasscrab posted:

Oh wow did you really just stereotype the poor? Also since when the gently caress did somebody having a criminal record ever stop them from joining the military? The number of convicts allowed to join the US military actually increased when the Pentagon was having trouble with its recruitment numbers back in 2004-2007 when the military became bogged down in Iraq. Recruitment numbers only began to increase following the economic downturn in 2008 (which is why we no longer hear about the military complaining about how they need more men).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/21/AR2008042103295.html

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/10/news/economy/military_recruiting/index.htm

ekuNNN posted:

That's weird, I'm as anti-military as most here, but I read those pictures more as "He shouldn't have gone to war, Now he's dead". It looks to me that his brother is really unhappy about him leaving in the first picture. There's nothing about any evil enemy, that's something you made up yourself. Those two pictures together send an anti-war message, to me.

Chantilly Say posted:

Since you've gone there, let's go Godwin:

cloudchamber posted:

Venezuela are currently building a $140m, 160 foot high masoleum for Simon Bolivar.

That nice little building on the left is where the remains were previously housed.

c0ldfuse posted:

Highspeeddub posted:

Has Simon Bolivar's family ever been asked if it's okay to handle his remains like this?

your lovely eek posted:

Highspeeddub posted:

Chavez believes he is the reincarnation of Bolivar

Highspeeddub posted:

You forgot my favorite Eastern European Dictator of all.

Highspeeddub posted:

7 years old and already packing.

Earth posted:

I want to find something more along the lines of the previous generation helping the next.

Highspeeddub posted:

Chantilly Say posted:

In short: Don't blame soldiers for following orders. Blame the people at the top for making bad decisions.

quote:

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." - Nuremberg Principle III

quote:

"I, Pvt. Eddie D. Slovik, 36896415, confess to the desertion of the United States Army. At the time of my desertion we were in Albuff [Elbeuf] in France. I came to Albuff as a replacement. They were shelling the town and we were told to dig in for the night. The following morning they were shelling us again. I was so scared, nerves and trembling, that at the time the other replacements moved out, I couldn’t move. I stayed there in my fox hole till it was quiet and I was able to move. I then walked into town. Not seeing any of our troops, so I stayed over night at a French hospital. The next morning I turned myself over to the Canadian Provost Corp. After being with them six weeks I was turned over to American M.R. They turned me lose. I told my commanding officer my story. I said that if I had to go out there again I'd run away. He said their was nothing he could do for me so I ran away again AND I'LL RUN AWAY AGAIN IF I HAVE TO GO OUT THERE!"

—Signed PvI. Eddie D. Slovik A.S.N. 36896415”

Dr. Cogwerks posted:

"Blame the leaders, not the troops" is a pretty huge copout and it's one that is frequently used to demean anti-war efforts. Why doesn't that attitude ever apply to other folks' soldiers when we're invading other countries? We sure hold other people accountable for their leaders. As a nation we happily kill shittons of people and cheer "haha, we fuckin' got him!" as though every corpse is an extension of one political leader.

Sure, a lot of soldiers are either coerced or duped into joining for god knows how many different reasons. I knew a lot of folks who signed up during peacetime because they thought they were Giving Back to the country or that it was a good way to get into college or get some job training and direction in life, and a lot of classmates of mine signed up right after 9/11 out of a sense of national duty.
With a volunteer force though, there's a decision being made there that it's okay to kill people if it's your job and your boss tells you to do it.

wikipedia posted:

John Clifford "Cliff" Baxter was a former Enron Corporation executive who resigned in May 2001. He sold $30 million worth of Enron stock during the months prior to Enron's bankruptcy. Before his death, he had agreed to testify before Congress in the Enron case.

Dr. Cogwerks posted:

"Blame the leaders, not the troops" is a pretty huge copout and it's one that is frequently used to demean anti-war efforts. Why doesn't that attitude ever apply to other folks' soldiers when we're invading other countries? We sure hold other people accountable for their leaders. As a nation we happily kill shittons of people and cheer "haha, we fuckin' got him!" as though every corpse is an extension of one political leader.

Sure, a lot of soldiers are either coerced or duped into joining for god knows how many different reasons. I knew a lot of folks who signed up during peacetime because they thought they were Giving Back to the country or that it was a good way to get into college or get some job training and direction in life, and a lot of classmates of mine signed up right after 9/11 out of a sense of national duty.
With a volunteer force though, there's a decision being made there that it's okay to kill people if it's your job and your boss tells you to do it.

If not "gently caress the troops", let's at least agree on gently caress the Recruiters.

Chantilly Say posted:

In short: Don't blame soldiers for following orders. Blame the people at the top for making bad decisions.

Ronald Nixon posted:

It's that old adage though, isn't it? "You always have a choice"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xq831b2tPg

First Aid Kit singing a cover of Buffy Sainte Marie's 'Universal Soldier' (slightly altered lyrics)

code:

He’s 5 foot 2 and he’s 6 feet 4
And he fights with missiles and with spears
He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17
And he’s been a soldier for a thousand years

He’s a Christian, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jane
A Buddhist, and a Muslim and a Jew
And he knows he shouldn’t kill
And he knows he always will
Kill you for me, my friend and me for you

And he’s fighting for Palestine
He’s fighting for Israel
And he’s fighting for the USA
And he’s fighting for the Russians
And he’s fighting for Iraq
And he thinks we’ll put an end to war this way

And he’s fighting for democracy
He’s fighting for his soil
He says it’s for the peace of all
He’s the one who must decide
who’s to live and who’s to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him
how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives is body
as a weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can’t go on

He’s the universal soldier
And he really is to blame
His orders comes from
far away no more

They come from here and there
And you and me
Oh, brother can’t you see
This is not the way we put an end to war

Frosted Flake posted:

Nobody wanted this war, but it's part of the job and we have a duty.

quote:

Neither have I the least idea of "joining" you, or in any way assisting the unjust war waging against Mexico. I have no wish to participate in such "glorious" butcheries of women and children as were displayed in the capture of Montercy, etc. Neither have I any desire to place myself under the dictation of a petty military tyrant, to every caprice of whose will I must yield implicit obedience. No sir-ee! As long as I can work, beg, or go to the poor house, I won't go to Mexico, to be lodged on the damp ground, half starved, half roasted, bitten by mosquitoes and centipedes, stung by scorpions and tarantulas-marched, drilled, and flogged, and then stuck up to be shot at, for eight dollars a month and putrid rations. Well, I won't.. . . Human butchery has had its day... . And the time is rapidly approaching when the professional soldier will be placed on the same level as a bandit, the Bedouin, and the Thug.

ekuNNN posted:

Is that job or duty more important than not killing people in their own country, though? I understand that a lot of people don't really have another way to pay for an education or to get a well-paying job or to get benefits, and I'm certainly not calling all soldiers baby-killers or whatever, and that once you've joined there's lots of reasons why you can't just suddenly leave. It's not a black and white situation. You still have to weigh that against being complicit in a war of aggression (more directly than voters) which is costing the lives of a lot of innocent people, and decide if what you're getting out of being in the military is worth the lives that are being ruined.

Fungah posted:

einTier posted:

The gently caress? How is this even permissible?