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I think charge characters are less difficult to learn than motion characters. Well, the opposite is true at higher points of execution, but at a basic level, charge characters are easier imo.
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Aug 31, 2012 21:21
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Bebopaloobop posted:Let's just make fighting games really boring and homogenous this is a good idea. This game thought so! It didn't turn out any worse for it, either. 
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Aug 31, 2012 21:24
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loving finger puzzles.
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Aug 31, 2012 21:32
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Bebopaloobop posted:Let's just make fighting games really boring and homogenous this is a good idea. I don't think either should be removed, but I think we can look at some games as examples of doing things in new (maybe better? maybe not?) ways. Like Cerebella's 360 detection in Skullgirls, I loving love that poo poo and it made her a lot more enjoyable to play, though that then raises balance questions. Also gently caress the pretzel, I give no fucks that poo poo is vile.
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Aug 31, 2012 21:42
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Dr Pepper posted:Balancing moves by deliberately giving them terrible controls is a dumb idea. If a moves so powerful you decide to "balance" it by making it hard to activate then the move should not exist. It's totally cool for you to not like charge characters and poo poo, and you're welcome to not play charge characters if you don't want, but you not liking them doesn't make them bad, sorry. Guile - the original charge character - is still one of the best designs in fighting games. The classic example here is sonic boom vs. hadoken. Hadokens have a simple motion, but relatively long startup and recovery. You devote less time to executing the move, and your tradeoff is you spend more time vulnerable after the projectile comes out. Guile recovers almost instantly from his sonic boom - it's very difficult to go through a sonic boom and hit Guile with anything - but the downside is a) you have to devote almost a full second to performing the move and b) you lose access to the ability to walk forward, do f+MK, f+HP, f+HK, and jump any direction but backwards. What I'm really trying to say here is you've got it all wrong. The balance idea behind charge characters isn't that charge moves are more difficult to do, because they're not. You hit two directions while performing a sonic boom (or coup a droit or whatever), you hit three while performing a fireball. The question is what does the character give up in return for being able to do that move? The short short version of what I'm trying to say is you're either being willfully obtuse or you really just don't get it, and in either case your complaint is unjustified.
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Aug 31, 2012 21:45
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may contain peanuts posted:What's terrible about them? You hold a direction for a lil bit then you push a different direction while simultaneously pressing a button. It's no more or less difficult than a quarter circle. Yeah, it's seriously the easiest thing in the world, especially with a square gate since you can ride the gate for the most part and not mess up the motion. Unless you're using pad of course. I remember when going from pad to stick, I tried using Guile in SF4 and was in awe at how much easier he was to use than he was on pad. It's easy but like Sade said, you're restricted by other stuff too to balance it out. It's doable to play them on pad since I can use charge characters on pad now if I go back to it, but starting out, not so much.
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Aug 31, 2012 21:56
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Countblanc posted:I don't think either should be removed, but I think we can look at some games as examples of doing things in new (maybe better? maybe not?) ways. Like Cerebella's 360 detection in Skullgirls, I loving love that poo poo and it made her a lot more enjoyable to play, though that then raises balance questions. You can do a standing 360 in pretty much every game that has 360s. Skullgirls just made it so that you don't have to be really fast (or use sf4 shortcuts) to do it.
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Aug 31, 2012 22:29
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Bebopaloobop posted:You can't... unless you hit her out of the air. Which will reduce your punish damage by 1000-2000 dmg depending on screen position. It's also distance dependent. Punishing her DP in the air with 5B is a 1f punish from max range when dash startup is accounted for. Okay so I did check this and I was right about the meter gain. Doing a 5B punish nets you about +30SP before the super point, which means you actually get a fair bit better damage (around 1k or so) by punishing with 5B because you will earn enough meter to do a super. As best I can tell anyway, I might not be doing ideal combos off the 4A+B or 6A+B. Akihiko does not seem to have any frame data posted yet, but I suspect that 5B has a lot less initial proration, which is probably a big factor in this. I don't really find 66 5B hard to use as a punish against the DP, but I do definitely find 236C->6A+B to be waaaay easier. That plus the fact you can let Mitsuru throw away meter, I think both punishes have their uses.
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Aug 31, 2012 23:14
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Sade posted:It's totally cool for you to not like charge characters and poo poo, and you're welcome to not play charge characters if you don't want, but you not liking them doesn't make them bad I don't like them because the game doesn't tell you how to use them. All they say is "Oh hold back the stick for a bit. I guess" The game gives no clue on when the charging is done. Edit: Really fighting games have this very weird backwards thing compared to every other video game. The #1 rule for every good game is: Every move the player can perform should be as easy as possible to do. Fighting games, instead, reject this element of good design and often hide important moves the player has to do (and since they're designed to be competitive, they're even more important) behind unintuitive and difficult maneuvers. So why did this happen? In the original Street Fighter, the special moves used by Ryu were secrets. The strange maneuvers the player needed to do to perform them was because the attacks were Easter eggs. They were literally cheat codes you entered while playing the game. By the time Street Fighter 2 came out, they were well known. However, rather then simplify the cheat codes to use the special moves since everybody was expected to do them, they just told people how to do the moves. And well, every fighting game has followed Street Fighter 2. So complex maneuvers to perform often vital moves just became baked in as part of the genre. It's a bit of a problem that needs to vanish. Dr Pepper fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 00:06
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Dr Pepper posted:And well, every fighting game has followed Street Fighter 2. So complex maneuvers to perform often vital moves just became baked in as part of the genre. It's a bit of a problem that needs to vanish. It's actually not, and it sounds like fighting games may not be for you.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:18
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Brosnan posted:It's actually not, and it sounds like fighting games may not be for you. Yes me calling out flaws of a game I like means they're not for me.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:31
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Its like scrubquotes.txt
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Sep 1, 2012 00:31
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Is there a flowchart for poo poo posting like this? I'd be surprised if there isn't, because it happens in every fighting game thread on SA. And to think, Persona's kind of easy on execution compared to other fighters.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:31
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Bovineicide posted:I'd be surprised if there isn't, because it happens in every fighting game thread on SA. It's almost like it's a flaw holding the genre back!
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Sep 1, 2012 00:33
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Its almost like people who are bad and don't understand something are trying to rationalize it.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:34
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Dr Pepper posted:I don't like them because the game doesn't tell you how to use them. All they say is "Oh hold back the stick for a bit. I guess" The game gives no clue on when the charging is done. 
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Sep 1, 2012 00:36
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Dr Pepper posted:words Shut up idiot.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:39
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Dr Pepper posted:It's almost like it's a flaw holding the genre back! Execution time/skill required to perform a move is a calculated part of game balance and character design. You are not The Smart Guy who has successfully distilled game design into universal principles that everyone should strive to follow. You are an idiot.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:39
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Are you strictly complaining about the charge moves, or are you also complaining about qcf/qcb? Because those are hardly difficult, and allow you to have more moves available than "a, b, c, d". Four moves can get stale fast. Otherwise, yes, there's an execution barrier. Welcome to real life. If you can't do something, work on it, and you'll get better. Complaining won't do you any good.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:42
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Its amazing how often people who don't understand fighting games roll in and go "listen fuckers I SOLVED this goddamn genre, heres what you do...". And never do they step back and consider their perspective.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:44
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Dr Pepper posted:It's almost like it's a flaw holding the genre back! This game has already made so many concessions to make things as simple as possible execution-wise and yet you still are complaining because you don't want to take five minutes in training mode to find out how long the charge times for Mitsuru's moves are. Do you need this kind of extreme hand-holding in everything you play?
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Sep 1, 2012 00:46
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Shadow Ninja 64 posted:This game has already made so many concessions to make things as simple as possible execution-wise and yet you still are complaining because you don't want to take five minutes in training mode to find out how long the charge times for Mitsuru's moves are. Do you need this kind of extreme hand-holding in everything you play? I guess my main thing is that I feel like the training mode should be for figuring out how to chain your moves together, rather then to just figure out how to use them. It's a charge move, OK, give the player a visual/audio/some kind of clue to tell when they're charging and when they're done. I do put in the "work" to learn how to play the game. Because I like the game. I just find these elements of the genre a little obnoxious. It's not really a deal breaker for me. Though, in all honesty in some ways this game is actually a little too simplified. They really should have made it a six button game rather then a four button so we don't have to contort our fingers to press two buttons at once for everything other then a basic attack.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:52
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Dr Pepper posted:Though, in all honesty in some ways this game is actually a little too simplified. They really should have made it a six button game rather then a four button so we don't have to contort our fingers to press two buttons at once for everything other then a basic attack. Unless you have tiny fingers, they only really hard button combinations are anything involving A and C without B (assuming default pad controls). Just jam those combinations on a shoulder button, and ta-da.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:57
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Dr Pepper posted:so we don't have to contort our fingers to press two buttons at once for everything other then a basic attack. You are projecting your lack of execution and experience and justifying it as "the game is bad." Pockyless fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 00:57
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OmegaGoo posted:Unless you have tiny fingers, they only really hard button combinations are anything involving A and C without B (assuming default pad controls). Just jam those combinations on a shoulder button, and ta-da. Yeah, or if you're on a stick you can do something like A C D B or whatever. It helped me a ton.
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Sep 1, 2012 00:58
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I find it funny that first that image was posted in response to me saying something's too complex then posted in response to me saying something is too simple.  I can't win.OmegaGoo posted:Unless you have tiny fingers, they only really hard button combinations are anything involving A and C without B (assuming default pad controls). Just jam those combinations on a shoulder button, and ta-da. Well yeah. Really though, they should have just added some of those functions to some different buttons in the first place, since you're going to have to set them on them to use them in any reasonable way anyways.
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Sep 1, 2012 01:00
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Dr Pepper posted:Well yeah. Really though, they should have just added some of those functions to some different buttons in the first place, since you're going to have to set them on them to use them in any reasonable way anyways. And here I thought going to the controller settings was the first thing most people do in a game(especially a fighter). What they should have done is made it so the game reads your mind and knows exactly how you want to play before you start I guess?
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Sep 1, 2012 01:09
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Dr Pepper posted:Well yeah. Really though, they should have just added some of those functions to some different buttons in the first place, since you're going to have to set them on them to use them in any reasonable way anyways. I'm starting to get the feeling that you want isn't simpler execution, but lower barrier to entry? I'm not even sure how you would do that. There's a decent learning curve on fighting games... would you be willing to try your hand a at a system that would have a lower learning curve, but would be as rewarding for experienced players? Super Smash Bros. doesn't count. It's a party game first, fighting game... like sixth or seventh.
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Sep 1, 2012 01:12
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OmegaGoo posted:I'm starting to get the feeling that you want isn't simpler execution, but lower barrier to entry? This is mostly me griping about when I have to play against my brother and he uses the one fight stick we have so my muscle memory on the gamepad for what button combo lets me throw and what ones makes me all-out-attack betrays me. 
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Sep 1, 2012 01:14
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Cerebella 360 thing is fine in Skullgirls but would be terrible in a lot of games. Sure you could balance around it but I think a 360 that you can't spin like crazy and mash out at the appropriate moment is more interesting. Sorry for off topic but I see crazy amounts of people bring that up like it's some brilliant improvement to the genre.
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Sep 1, 2012 01:14
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Dr Pepper posted:I find it funny that first that image was posted in response to me saying something's too complex then posted in response to me saying something is too simple. No you were still whining about it being too complex to push two loving buttons at the same time.
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Sep 1, 2012 01:15
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Dr Pepper posted:This is mostly me griping about when I have to play against my brother and he uses the one fight stick we have so my muscle memory on the gamepad for what button combo lets me throw and what ones makes me all-out-attack betrays me. You picked a very antagonistic, misdirected, misplaced, and drawn-out gripe, then. Be more careful in what you're saying.
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Sep 1, 2012 01:18
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Dr Pepper posted:This is mostly me griping about when I have to play against my brother and he uses the one fight stick we have so my muscle memory on the gamepad for what button combo lets me throw and what ones makes me all-out-attack betrays me. What. Why didn't you make that clear from the beginning then instead of derailing this entire thread for a page and a loving half.
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Sep 1, 2012 03:37
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Dr Pepper posted:This is mostly me griping about when I have to play against my brother and he uses the one fight stick we have so my muscle memory on the gamepad for what button combo lets me throw and what ones makes me all-out-attack betrays me. You're the biggest whiny oval office I've ever seen. The reason there's no period in Dr Pepper is because it's all bottled up in YOU.
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Sep 1, 2012 04:15
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Dr Pepper posted:It's a charge move, OK, give the player a visual/audio/some kind of clue to tell when they're charging and when they're done.
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Sep 1, 2012 04:59
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FGTVLive house doing a P4A tourney again. Currently world's best Kanji, Pain, is up fighting 2gb combo's Aigis again. Edit: watch your volume, these people commentating are pretty loud anytime something happens. Jmcrofts posted:Can't tell if serious...  His is pretty fun to watch I suppose.
E-Tap fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 08:15
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E-Tap posted:Currently world's best Kanji, Pain Can't tell if serious...
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Sep 1, 2012 08:23
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Look up Pet if you want to see some extraordinarily bonkers Kanji play.
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Sep 1, 2012 08:46
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FAB is probably better than PET. None of the best Kanjis live in america though.
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Sep 1, 2012 09:15
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Pockyless posted:
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Sep 1, 2012 12:52
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