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If anybody is interested BBC4 are running a 3 part series on the Treasures of Ancient Rome. Watch it here if you can get Iplayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00wpvpr Last nights episode was about portraiture and realism, strangely enough it's the first time I had seen images of Cicero and Pompey. Those were some ugly dudes.
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Sep 4, 2012 16:52
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SniperWoreConverse posted:You know I remember that title too, what was the story? I'm not sure but it's this guy here. I was just listening the History of Rome podcast where he was talking about how Nero only wanted to sit around and play his Lyre. Combining that with his bad B.O. and neckbeard he sounds exactly like... a spoiled teenager. 
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Sep 5, 2012 06:14
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Moist von Lipwig posted:Combining that with his bad B.O. and neckbeard he sounds exactly like... a spoiled teenager. Which is a completely accurate assessment of him. Born into the imperial family and became emperor at 17. Imagine you were pampered your whole life and then given literally endless power at 17.
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Sep 5, 2012 06:38
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Grand Fromage posted:Which is a completely accurate assessment of him. Born into the imperial family and became emperor at 17. Imagine you were pampered your whole life and then given literally endless power at 17. Oh yeah, it was the part about him forcing Senators to listen to his latest Lyre jams that throws the whole thing almost into satire territory.
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Sep 5, 2012 08:17
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Moist von Lipwig posted:I was just listening the History of Rome podcast ... The History of Rome guy and his podcast are simply amazing, and thanks to him I just picked up The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon. I'm supposed to be reading 18th Century literature for my uni course, but books about Rome keep sneaking into my reading pile! The good news is next year I'm taking a module on Virgil, so that's how I'm justifying these tangents to myself. I've also been reading a selection of letters by Cicero and it's extremely funny how they are chock full of back handed compliments and demands for more praise. I remember Robert Harris presenting the guy as a cheeky chappie but really he sounds more like a total big head to me.
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Sep 5, 2012 10:10
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Dr Scoofles posted:I've also been reading a selection of letters by Cicero and it's extremely funny how they are chock full of back handed compliments and demands for more praise. I remember Robert Harris presenting the guy as a cheeky chappie but really he sounds more like a total big head to me. He was. Literally and figuratively.
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Sep 5, 2012 10:32
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What did the Romans think/speculate is on the other side of the Atlantic ocean? From what I've learned in this thread they were aware that Earth is round. Did they think China is there, were there merchants attempting to create a trade route that way, or did they just not think about it much at all)
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Sep 5, 2012 11:38
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China, as far as I know. That was the world-encircling Ocean, there was nothing beyond it. Maybe some sort of mythical land like Thule. They did know the world was round but I've never read anything speculating about sailing west to China or anything like that. Remember that ancient ships weren't good on open water, they stuck to coasts as much as possible. I don't think anyone was thinking about heading out into the Atlantic.
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Sep 5, 2012 11:51
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Dr Scoofles posted:I've also been reading a selection of letters by Cicero and it's extremely funny how they are chock full of back handed compliments and demands for more praise. I remember Robert Harris presenting the guy as a cheeky chappie but really he sounds more like a total big head to me. Years ago, someone I knew at university who was studying classics told me that the Romans didn't have the same attitude to boasting/modesty we do - they thought that if what you were saying about yourself was true, it was fair enough to tell the world about it. I've never found a formal source for that, but it makes sense. Cicero, and other writers like Pliny the Younger, are always blowing their own trumpet, without the least self-consciousness. I think the idea of modesty as a virtue may be a Judeo-Christian one.
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Sep 5, 2012 19:27
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General Panic posted:Years ago, someone I knew at university who was studying classics told me that the Romans didn't have the same attitude to boasting/modesty we do - they thought that if what you were saying about yourself was true, it was fair enough to tell the world about it. That's about right. You could still be a pompous rear end but being modest doesn't seem to have been valued much. As long as it was justified and you weren't spending literally every waking moment saying how great you were, that annoys anyone no matter the culture. Cicero was full of himself even by Roman standards, which is part of why he's fun. But you do have a society where it's seen as civic virtue to build a giant arch celebrating how awesome you are as a general or a amphitheater that dominates the skyline and has your name on it.
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Sep 10, 2012 02:18
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How about the Romans and personal pets? Did they use dogs or any other animals besides horses in war? I know Hannibal used elephants.
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Sep 10, 2012 18:04
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They liked dogs: Parrots (and other birds), monkeys, and snakes were also common. They didn't like cats. Fish ponds were also hugely popular among the rich; men like Hortensius and Lucullus spent fortunes on their eels and and carp.
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Sep 10, 2012 18:54
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Grand Fromage posted:But you do have a society where it's seen as civic virtue to build a giant arch celebrating how awesome you are as a general or a amphitheater that dominates the skyline and has your name on it.
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Sep 10, 2012 19:05
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Christoff posted:How about the Romans and personal pets? Did they use dogs or any other animals besides horses in war? I know Hannibal used elephants. I know jack about Roman pets but they liked using animals in war, particularly in the auxiliaries because the Romans were never the best even with horses until maybe the dominate. I believe Scipio Africanus used elephants at Zama (feel free to correct me) and Pompey loved elephants so much he even tried to ride one on his triumph (though they were far from the decisive factor in his victories). Romans introduced camels to the Sahara, if I recall correctly, to do patrols. I seem to recall reading something about introducing lions to Egypt to deal with troublemakers there but I believe that was a brainstorm at best. Romans tended to use any kind of animal or human they thought would kill or intimidate the enemy, but there's a reason horses are pretty much the war animal.
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Sep 10, 2012 20:22
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General Panic posted:Years ago, someone I knew at university who was studying classics told me that the Romans didn't have the same attitude to boasting/modesty we do - they thought that if what you were saying about yourself was true, it was fair enough to tell the world about it. You could look at a lot of our culture today and conclude the same thing if you only had biographies on Donald Trump and rap videos to go on.
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Sep 10, 2012 21:08
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Claudius (well, his generals) invaded Britain with elephants.
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Sep 10, 2012 21:11
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Xguard86 posted:You could look at a lot of our culture today and conclude the same thing if you only had biographies on Donald Trump and rap videos to go on. There's truth in that statement, though. Look at who the Romans thought were cool people? Let's just take Odysseus as one example. A crafty, deceitful Greek (synonyms in the Roman mind), who lied, cheated, and stole his way across the Mediterranean. This, of course, was a punishment from Neptune for his hubris. Make note of that word: hubris. Not pride, but excessive pride, and at the expense of the gods. Odysseus wasn't sent on a 10 year tour because he hosed the Trojans by sneaking into their city with a package on the doorstep (whence the phrase timeo Danaos et dona ferentes), but because he took more than his fair share of the credit. Dutiful Aeneas, on the other hand, takes credit for his actions, but obeys the gods, even when it tears him away from Dido and makes her off herself. You don't see the idea of modesty as a virtue until well after the death of Christ. Virtue was just that in Roman society: Manliness. You served the state, you obeyed your father, and you gave the gods their due. That was the extent of virtue, and if you were proud of that fact, then all the better, because that meant you actually cared about the state, gods, your father, etc.
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Sep 10, 2012 21:30
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Christoff posted:How about the Romans and personal pets? Did they use dogs or any other animals besides horses in war? I know Hannibal used elephants. A wide variety of animals were used in ancient war, but I'm not sure whether the Romans, specifically, used them all. I know that Romans used squealing pigs to scare pyrrhus' elephants. Hannibal tricked the Romans by tying torches to oxen and moving the herd around at night.
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Sep 10, 2012 21:31
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Grand Fromage posted:Which is a completely accurate assessment of him. Born into the imperial family and became emperor at 17. Imagine you were pampered your whole life and then given literally endless power at 17. code:
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Sep 10, 2012 23:32
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Agesilaus posted:I know that Romans used squealing pigs to scare pyrrhus' elephants. Ha, Kate Beaton (the cartooning history nut who does Hark, A Vagrant, if you're not familiar) tweeted about that very thing today, and I was going to ask about it myself.
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Sep 11, 2012 04:13
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The pig story has a few sources. Pliny the Elder just stated it, Procopius mentions pigs being used to scare off war elephants, and Aelian claims pig squeals were used against Pyrrhus' elephants. The story of the flaming pig is claimed from the siege of Megara in Greece, where pigs were supposedly doused in pitch and set aflame, then released to terrify the elephants. It worked and the elephants rampaged through the enemy lines. This is where the flaming pigs in Rome Total War come from, though since it's only reported the one time it's a bit questionable. And wasn't Roman. A startled and frightened elephant is pretty bad news to anyone around it so if squealing pigs do indeed scare them, they were probably used. I don't know if elephants are actually scared of it though. If anyone has a war elephant and can find a pig we can test it.
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Sep 11, 2012 04:54
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Did Rome have banking as it resembles today? Were there letters of credit, or was it just mostly barter and coins? Regarding coins, how was their value set? I'm curious because I'm working on a piece of fiction regarding the invention of coin based economy, a bank, and futures trading in a fictional fantasy world, and I was wondering what Rome had. Pointing me toward scholarly journals, thesis, and research books is just fine, I just want to know.
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Sep 11, 2012 13:06
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The cites here might be helpful to you
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Sep 11, 2012 16:39
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I had read the wikipedia section on it, but I was hoping for more indepth information. Thanks for making sure I didn't miss something important, basic, and easy to find though. That's happened to me before with research. 
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Sep 11, 2012 23:38
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Grand Fromage posted:If anyone has a war elephant and can find a pig we can test it. Well, now you mention it...
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Sep 12, 2012 00:47
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50 Foot Ant posted:I had read the wikipedia section on it, but I was hoping for more indepth information. I did a bit of Googling and came up with this beauty of a site. It's still an overview but it's definitely worth checking out: http://www.mariamilani.com/ancient_rome/Ancient_Roman_Currency_Economy.htm
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Sep 12, 2012 03:37
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50 Foot Ant posted:I had read the wikipedia section on it, but I was hoping for more indepth information. Everyone usually thinks to check Wikipedia, but not everyone thinks to check the works that are cited
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Sep 12, 2012 03:48
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furushotakeru posted:Everyone usually thinks to check Wikipedia, but not everyone thinks to check the works that are cited You're right, I got lazy. This is all fascinating reading, and I've made some additional notes to the "Yum Yum Coins" storyline based on the research and citations you've pointed me to.
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Sep 12, 2012 07:19
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Grand Fromage posted:If anyone has a war elephant and can find a pig we can test it. Is there any chance it works the other way around? Because I have a war pig but can only get ahold of a regular elephant. Also wanted to say thanks. It's taken me weeks to read through this thread and it is awesome.
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Sep 12, 2012 08:28
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Choadmaster posted:I have a war pig Great, now all we need are generals gathered like witches in black masses and we're all set. For science 
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Sep 12, 2012 21:01
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Grand Fromage posted:The pig story has a few sources. Pliny the Elder just stated it, Procopius mentions pigs being used to scare off war elephants, and Aelian claims pig squeals were used against Pyrrhus' elephants. The story of the flaming pig is claimed from the siege of Megara in Greece, where pigs were supposedly doused in pitch and set aflame, then released to terrify the elephants. It worked and the elephants rampaged through the enemy lines. This is where the flaming pigs in Rome Total War come from, though since it's only reported the one time it's a bit questionable. And wasn't Roman. Check your sources bro, ”This time the war elephants were unable to force a victory. The Romans now drove them off with pigs coated in grease and pitch which they turned into live torches. Their shrill, dying squeals made the huge pachyderms panic and put to flight.” Battle of Maleventum. Quote should be from Dionysius of Halicarnassus but I'm on a tour bus in some god forsaken american city so I can't get to my bookshelf to check. Agesilaus fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Sep 12, 2012 |
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Sep 12, 2012 22:10
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I wouldn't be surprised if a pigs squeal would resonate with Elephants but let's not forget the fact that they were on fire. Isn't there another case of someone using burning camels for the same effect?
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Sep 13, 2012 05:21
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Moist von Lipwig posted:I wouldn't be surprised if a pigs squeal would resonate with Elephants but let's not forget the fact that they were on fire. I've read that horses don't like the smell of camels. That may be what you're thinking of.
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Sep 13, 2012 05:37
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I'm just wondering who the first person to sit down and go 'okay, I got it. We burn the pigs alive.' Like, I get that it's useful knowledge that people would have written down and propagated, but who's the first guy who set out to do that.
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Sep 13, 2012 06:46
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Well, it was a popular enough idea for the Soviets to try it in ww2 with German tanks instead of elephants and starved dogs with explosives strapped to them instead of burning pigs. It turned out the dogs tended to run away from the front line instead of towards it, unfortunately, and I have a feeling the Romans found that out as well.
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 06:55
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It was worse, the dogs were trained on Soviet tanks (since, you know, they had those) and then out in the field, they ran at the Soviet tanks they were trained to attack and blew 'em up. Horses do hate the smell of camels, that's one of the reasons camel cavalry was used. The other being the whole desert thing. The Greek source was the only one I knew of for burning pigs. I imagine they discovered that pig squeals scare elephants first, then it went "Hm, how can we make these pigs keep squealing as loud as possible as long as possible?" "Well, we can set them on fire." "Promote that man!"
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Sep 13, 2012 07:19
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Honestly, who doesn't hate the smell of camels?
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Sep 13, 2012 22:26
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Did the Romans ever use fire ships?
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Sep 14, 2012 02:42
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Retarded Pimp posted:Did the Romans ever use fire ships? I can't remember if the Romans ever used them, but the Vandals used them to destroy Basiliscus' fleet in AD 468 after he made the mistake of letting Genseric have a few days to "prepare to surrender". Nice job, Basiliscus.
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Sep 14, 2012 02:46
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Retarded Pimp posted:Did the Romans ever use fire ships? Not that I recall in the classical period. The only Roman naval tactic I know of was the corvus, which was a big bridge with hooks that they'd drop onto your ship to grab it. Then a bunch of legionaries charge over, turning it into a land battle--which the Romans were likely to win. They also rammed of course (and had ballistae, which probably weren't very effective) but the corvus was their best weapon since it neutralized anyone's naval advantage and brought the Roman land advantage onto the water. Medieval Roman fleets were armed with flamethrowers and essentially unstoppable for centuries. You and your wooden ships were good and hosed if the Romans showed up. Roman naval history is kind of weird since they started having no navy at all. Then they built up a huge one to fight Carthage, and kept it going for a couple centuries as they battled across the Mediterranean. By around the year zero the Mediterranean was entirely within the empire, they had wiped out all competition as well as all the pirates, so the Roman navy just kind of disappears for centuries. They still have one but it's not used much. Then in the 400s poo poo starts going to hell in the west and it comes back for a bit, but it's wildly incompetent since they hadn't had any real naval combat in literally centuries. Then the eastern Romans figure out Greek fire and create a fleet that completely dominates everyone stupid enough to fight them through the Middle Ages, until the east simply can't afford to maintain a fleet anymore because literally everyone is attacking them all the time and chopping away bits of territory. The east gets ignored but both on land and at sea they were by far the most dominant power in Europe until at least 1000 or 1100. You did not want to gently caress with them. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 14, 2012 02:49
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