p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

rotor posted:

the entire point of all the various agile methodologies is to ~~fix~~ ameliorate the problem of bad requirements gathering.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:17

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# ? May 8, 2024 18:45

CamH: Apr 11, 2008

i use an agile

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:17

vapid cutlery

Apr 17, 2007

php:

<?
"it's george costanza" ?>

hey we're going to demo some features you haven't implemented yet tomorrow, can u have them done and stable thanks

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:24

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

ameliorate

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:29

CamH: Apr 11, 2008

my boss is smart enough to not ask for stupid things like that

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:31

Sweeper: Nov 29, 2007; The Joe Buck of Posting; Dinosaur Gum

CamH posted:

my boss is smart enough to not ask for stupid things like that

must be nice

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:35

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

this thing where you fill out your own quarterly review or whatever is just the laziest thing

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:35

het: Nov 14, 2002; A dark black past
is my most valued
possession

ugh, quarterly?

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:38

CamH: Apr 11, 2008

Sweeper posted:

must be nice

i like my job

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:40

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

yeah if your boss routinely asks for stupid/impossible poo poo, consider getting a job writing software for a company that understands how software is built.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 05:44

gabensraum: Sep 16, 2003; LOAD "NICE!",8,1

legacy update: just had to jump through hoops to get .net 1.1 sdk installed and building old poo poo in a version of visual studio made in the last decade.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 06:56

Bored Online: May 25, 2009; We don't need Rome telling us what to do.

Cocoa Crispies posted:

python is good to start with since you will make stuff in less time and lots of people start with python
code:
print "hello world"
java is a terrible language because there's lots of boilerplate and poo poo that the computer should be able to figure out on its own
code:
public class java {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
        System.out.println("Hello World");
    }
}

There was something in the thread earlier about how learning python requires you to learn another language as well if that matters? Anyway I am just trying to get my feet wet as much as possible before formal classes so I've been doing the codeacademy thing + reading books. So I suppose whatever you guys feel is best geared for that kind of learning.

rotor posted:

cnc machines are cool as hell and i'ma buy a lil desktop one for myself for my birthday and then never do anything with it

There are shop clubs around silicon valley that let you rent time. Might be a better way to spend that money?

# ? Sep 12, 2012 07:08

Opinion Haver: Apr 9, 2007

LegendofDongslayer. posted:

There was something in the thread earlier about how learning python requires you to learn another language as well if that matters?

idk what the hell this is about. learn python tho

# ? Sep 12, 2012 07:22

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

that would involve leaving the house, and as a prolific yosposter i

# ? Sep 12, 2012 07:22

PrBacterio: Jul 19, 2000

tef posted:

We like to say that documentation is easy and developers are lazy, but I have found scant good documentation, so I have come to the conclusion that good documentation is hard, by virtue of it's rarity

Just wanted to do a quick seriouspost in reply to this: Documentation is only ever hard because of moving targets. If such a thing as a major software component that is finished did exist, in that nobody was ever going to have to touch it to change or update it ever again, writing comprehensive and useful documentation for it would be a simple matter. Unfortunately in reality, by the time you've written even a single paragraph describing whatever functionality it's already going to be completely out of date because even the most basic assumptions about how whatever it is you're trying to document works have been changed in some major refactoring that was necessary so that new feature X could be added to the whole thing.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 08:51

vapid cutlery

Apr 17, 2007

php:

<?
"it's george costanza" ?>

aples documentation si cool

# ? Sep 12, 2012 08:55

Max Facetime: Apr 18, 2009

tef posted:

i find it more you read my posts with a view to dissect them for faults, over letting me away with my more general, vague point made through fanciful word choice and handwaving.

I do that, yes, I think there's some deep-seated underlying flaw there that's quite hard to grab a hold of. Believing that coding is the same thing as typing source code might be it.

tef posted:

again, you're making the point that you seem to be missing from my posts. the challenge and difficulty from software come from people, not from algorithms, nor data structures.

software starts and ends with people, it only exists for people to use, so tell me again how much of the coding effort is spent on solving trivial problems and how much of it is figuring out what those trivial problems are in the first place?

# ? Sep 12, 2012 09:50

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

rotor posted:

the number one cause of software project failure is bad requirements gathering.

poo poo's got nothing to do with languages. the problem is that people dont loving know what they want until they see it.

And sometimes that doesn't matter because the program lives in a feedback loop with its users. How the users interact with the software and use it will push for new requirements that they wouldn't even have had without the software. By its mere existence, software impacts the world of its users in a way that naturally and inevitably prompts for changes.

The best you can do with a good spec is say that it is good for now, unless you're working with more static rule sets, such as playing chess or implementing specific theorems.

rotor posted:

no, agile recognizes that all targets are in fact moving regardless of what some spec sheet may tell you and tries to enable you to hit the moving targets.

All kinds of iterative developments have the potential to be good because of that. You have to take an approach that recognizes how easy requirements change if you want to be able to have anything make sense.

A vast majority of a project's time is spent after its first delivery.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 13:06

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

Win8 Hetro Experie posted:

software starts and ends with people, it only exists for people to use, so tell me again how much of the coding effort is spent on solving trivial problems and how much of it is figuring out what those trivial problems are in the first place?

It's false to assume that solving a trivial problem is all that needs to be done with that problem.

Your list right now has:

Figuring out the trivial problem
Solving the trivial problem

Here's a quick list of what could be added:

Testing whether the solution to the trivial problem is good or not (including base cases, edge conditions, and so on)
Making sure your solution respects criteria (speed, usability, etc.)
Documenting it in general, at a higher level or in code
Planning ahead for maintenance operations, which usually take way more time than solving the problem the first time around
Making sure your solution fits the code base
etc.

Yes, people are the users using your app, but people are also the developers coming in after you and cleaning things up. It doesn't matter if you have a billion users but you can never fix errors or bugs (which will happen) or update whatever requirements because things are a mess.

There's an important economic argument that can be made that partially wrong software that you can make better is more useful and viable than perfect software that you cannot modify (for everyone in non life-threatening situations). If you think resolving this tension between requirements is in any way simple, I don't know what to say to you.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 13:14

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Win8 Hetro Experie posted:

I do that, yes, I think there's some deep-seated underlying flaw there that's quite hard to grab a hold of. Believing that coding is the same thing as typing source code might be it.

hi, here is an answer to the question I have in my head rather than what you've just said.

quote:

software starts and ends with people, it only exists for people to use, so tell me again how much of the coding effort is spent on solving trivial problems and how much of it is figuring out what those trivial problems are in the first place?

oh look i'm doing it again.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 14:14

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

rotor posted:

the entire point of all the various agile methodologies is to ~~fix~~ ameliorate the problem of bad requirements gathering.

Requirements gathering is impossible because the customer is always right.

And has probably been sold a solution to the halting problem.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 14:31

Max Facetime: Apr 18, 2009

Zombywuf posted:

Requirements gathering is impossible because the customer is always right.

And has probably been sold a solution to the halting problem.

instead of trying to hit a moving target maybe we could become the target itself and bounce about to get the customer to hit us :catdrugs:

# ? Sep 12, 2012 15:08

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

Win8 Hetro Experie posted:

instead of trying to hit a moving target maybe we could become the target itself and bounce about to get the customer to hit us

So you've written integration software then?

# ? Sep 12, 2012 15:25

Max Facetime: Apr 18, 2009

Zombywuf posted:

So you've written integration software then?

worse, completely new software

# ? Sep 12, 2012 15:56

Max Facetime: Apr 18, 2009

and the customer is more like a potential customer

# ? Sep 12, 2012 16:00

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

you'll get equity

# ? Sep 12, 2012 16:01

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

it looks like we're going to port our code on $projects[0] to FreeRTOS :toot:

# ? Sep 12, 2012 16:25

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

good god no

at least give eCos a look

# ? Sep 12, 2012 16:35

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

can you give me a quick rundown of why eCos is preferable? i don't have prior experience with either and i'm not the driver of this change although i have some modicum of input

# ? Sep 12, 2012 17:07

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

maybe it's just x86/my env, but freertos was a pain in the rear end to build and i had to write a lot of asm to make it play nice with my other tools

eCos build isn't perfect, but it's a lot smoother than freertos. also has the nice GUI config manager to set it all up, like you've got checkboxes for FPU support, the different schedulers, etc. compiles to a library that you link to when you build your content and anything that you don't use gets trimmed then. also has a POSIX layer so it's easy to write for.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 17:35

Zaxxon: Feb 14, 2004; Wir Tanzen Mekanik

JawnV6 posted:

maybe it's just x86/my env, but freertos was a pain in the rear end to build and i had to write a lot of asm to make it play nice with my other tools

eCos build isn't perfect, but it's a lot smoother than freertos. also has the nice GUI config manager to set it all up, like you've got checkboxes for FPU support, the different schedulers, etc. compiles to a library that you link to when you build your content and anything that you don't use gets trimmed then. also has a POSIX layer so it's easy to write for.

it's probably x86. I've used freeRTOS on a few ARM projects and I never had to do poo poo to get it to play nice.

# ? Sep 12, 2012 18:12

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

yeah it built without issue and the footprint is smaller. it's unfortunate that the closest thing to an academic comparison of the two in the wild is a pair of papers written by swedish undergraduates(?) with a poor grasp of english that don't give any data at all for anything (or any indication of having tested anything or even thought about it deeply)

# ? Sep 12, 2012 18:26

PrBacterio: Jul 19, 2000

so what's the yospos verdict on RTAI linux?
because that's what we use at work

# ? Sep 12, 2012 20:48

Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

Otto Skorzeny posted:

it looks like we're going to port our code on $projects[0] to FreeRTOS

we are thinking of porting our product to raspberry pi so we can afford to smash cluster members with a hammer during demos

# ? Sep 13, 2012 02:06

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

Cocoa Crispies posted:

we are thinking of porting our product to raspberry pi so we can afford to smash cluster members with a hammer during demos

ive been trying to convince the company that the impression it makes is worth the cost of spiking the laptop after a presentation.

# ? Sep 13, 2012 03:07

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

rotor posted:

ive been trying to convince the company that the impression it makes is worth the cost of spiking the laptop after a presentation.

pretty much, its like smashing a guitar after a show*, it shows that either you're profitable as gently caress and don't give a poo poo, or you're broke and really don't give a poo poo, either way it'll be a fun time at the afterparty

_{*please don't smash guitars its bad karma}

# ? Sep 13, 2012 04:00

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

ill smash a fuckin guitar if i drat well want to gently caress you

# ? Sep 13, 2012 04:22

multigl: Nov 22, 2005; "Who's cool and has two thumbs? This guy!"

Cocoa Crispies posted:

If you work hard at being clear in your naming, you�ll also rarely need to write comments for the code. Comments are generally only needed when you failed to be clear enough in naming. Treat them as a code smell.

comments are great for introducing new developers to a code base, and can make turning private objects into public apis easier.

# ? Sep 13, 2012 04:29

Opinion Haver: Apr 9, 2007

rotor posted:

ill smash a fuckin guitar if i drat well want to gently caress you

why would you want to gently caress jonny 290 though

# ? Sep 13, 2012 04:34

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# ? May 8, 2024 18:45

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

hes just so dreamy is all

# ? Sep 13, 2012 05:05

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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