|
Svartvit posted:Jesus Christ, that organisation has completely derailed. What the hell are you talking about? The UK openly talked of raiding a loving embassy just because Assange was in there. Why should the rest of the world respect embassies if Western powers won't?
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 18:23 |
|
|
Silky Thighs posted:I am wondering what is the appropriate way to deal with people such as this? This is from two different people on what happened at the Libyan embassy yesterday. I do not understand how a small group of radical islamists harming our ambassadors can be justification to declare war on an entire people, most of whom are not nearly as galvanized as those protestors were. The worst part about this jingoism is that going into all-out warfare as these posters would call for would actually benefit radical islamists more than anybody else, because suddenly our enemies have yet another way to drain our resources, create a power vacuum to fill themselves into, and incite more anger and violence towards us. In committing the attacks of 9/11, Osama hoped that it would incite us into a long, drawn-out, never-ending war that would drain our resources a la Vietnam and Stagflation. Now, 11 years later and with Osama's ambitions largely fulfilled, it is simply amazing that these morons don't seem to have figured out the trap.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:37
|
|
|
Barbarossa posted:What the hell are you talking about? The UK openly talked of raiding a loving embassy just because Assange was in there. Why should the rest of the world respect embassies if Western powers won't? The UK hasn't raided the embassy though. It was foolish of the British government to openly discuss the idea, but in the end they refrained from taking any action that would violate Ecuador's embassy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:37
|
|
|
Sushi in Yiddish posted:I hadn't really been following the Arab Spring, Libya and the like aside from listening to NPR once in a while, but I think that's a pretty stupid thing to have ignored for this length of time. Better awareness of what's going on in the world would be the best way things could work out. I'm not talking theoretical "awareness", I'm talking in terms of realising the sheer human tragedies of these conflicts - very few of us here knew Vilerat very well, and there is significant emotional reaction to it all the same. It is the same for every person killed in these wars, and that's easy to forget when you're looking at the numbers and pictures. e. The reason I'm mentioning is that I keep getting jaded myself, and it frightens me. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Sep 12, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:41
|
|
|
Brown Moses posted:Oh Wikileaks, I thought you used to be cool Smashurbanipal posted:Not sure it was necessary to throw that bit in, Fox.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:42
|
|
Barbarossa posted:What the hell are you talking about? The UK openly talked of raiding a loving embassy just because Assange was in there. Why should the rest of the world respect embassies if Western powers won't?
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:43
|
|
|
Barbarossa posted:What the hell are you talking about? The UK openly talked of raiding a loving embassy just because Assange was in there. Why should the rest of the world respect embassies if Western powers won't? You think the perpetrators of the attack sat around the kitchen table discussing the international precedences for how to properly interact with a foreign embassy before propelling a rocket through the window?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:44
|
|
|
1stGear posted:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/ What shitheads. Look at the spin they put on that Wired piece. I wonder what security procedures were actually in place, too? If I remember correctly, State Dept. personnel, cannot carry arms (although they may not have done any good here). A friend of mine from the Navy was sent into loving Liberia at the end of the civil war with no weapons. Moral_Hazard fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Sep 12, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:45
|
|
|
Silky Thighs posted:I am wondering what is the appropriate way to deal with people such as this? This is from two different people on what happened at the Libyan embassy yesterday.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:47
|
|
|
ExiledTinkerer posted:This whole situation is sheer madness and incredibly saddening---just terrible and condolences to all that've been lost. I especially hope people are able to get to the bottom of this as far as the people behind this video that stirred things as well as the actual attacking force---anybody doing stuff so brazenly insane is liable to do so again if they get further chances. Even bringing up that video in regards to this pisses me off so much. That video had nothing to do with what happened at all- every single ounce of blame is on the shoulders of the people that committed these crimes. To say otherwise is just insulting to both the people that died and Muslims everywhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:48
|
|
|
ufarn posted:Remember what happened the last time the U.S. retaliated to an attack by radical Muslims on American soil? That worked out well. I know all this information very well, but I feel like attempting to convince any of them would be futile. I hope I am wrong.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:49
|
|
|
Silky Thighs posted:I know all this information very well, but I feel like attempting to convince any of them would be futile. I hope I am wrong. What would you suggest?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:49
|
|
|
Svartvit posted:You think the perpetrators of the attack sat around the kitchen table discussing the international precedences for how to properly interact with a foreign embassy before propelling a rocket through the window? "Now, as you can clearly see when the UK talked about raiding an embassy to arrest someone, the US didn't put a stop to it. That's basically the same thing as killing their ambassador and burning the place down, so we can call them hypocrites if they get upset. Perfect defense."
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:50
|
|
|
Silky Thighs posted:I know all this information very well, but I feel like attempting to convince any of them would be futile. I hope I am wrong. If we and they won't take a moment to reflect on the coincidence and what we should know by now, just don't bother arguing with them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:54
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Even bringing up that video in regards to this pisses me off so much. That video had nothing to do with what happened at all- every single ounce of blame is on the shoulders of the people that committed these crimes. To say otherwise is just insulting to both the people that died and Muslims everywhere. The BBC posted:However, BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner says Arab officials believe the Benghazi attack was in fact planned ahead of the film.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2012 23:58
|
|
|
Just think about *who* attacked the embassy. It's easy to say "one doesn't attack an embassy", but why is that? If a Country attacked an embassy it would be an act of war, and we don't want war if we can avoid it. But the attack in Benghazi wasn't executed by the libyan people or the libyan government. The people who did this for whatever reason *want* war, they *want* to destabilize the region and they poo poo on international law. Therefore we can not expect them to follow the rules we make and respect the ambassies we build. They would have done it even without the UKs diplomacy-fauxpas.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:08
|
|
|
New Division posted:It's nice that the Libyan government has come out in support, and anyone who knows follows current events would not be surprised, but I have to say that I worry about their ability to actually reign in these extremist groups in the immediate future. The current government is still weak enough that a determined and armed minority can cause a lot of grief, even if it is a small minority. The point was to provide a response to people who think a reasonable US response to this situation is "declare war on Libya, then kill 'em all." Yes, there are problems with extremists in Libya, and most of the solutions are unpleasant at best. But, that doesn't justify or excuse kneejerk calls for war against a government and people which is largely friendly to and supportive of the US. It would be about as ridiculous as the UK declaring war on the US after 9/11/2001 because 68 of their citizens were killed in an attack the US government failed to prevent. ufarn posted:The attacks literally happening on a 9/11 is about as close as I as an agnostic come to believe in a divine signal from above. It looks like the attacks in Libya were pre-planned, and just used the protests as cover. It's less a divine signal from above and more a deliberate symbolic attack from a terrorist group.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:10
|
|
|
ufarn posted:The attacks literally happening on a 9/11 is about as close as I as an agnostic come to believe in a divine signal from above. Unless you're in a hole beneath an an AQ base there's nothing 'above' about it. Doing an attack on 9/11 would make it a more effective thing due to the previous attack.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:21
|
|
|
Space Gopher posted:The point was to provide a response to people who think a reasonable US response to this situation is "declare war on Libya, then kill 'em all." Yes, there are problems with extremists in Libya, and most of the solutions are unpleasant at best. But, that doesn't justify or excuse kneejerk calls for war against a government and people which is largely friendly to and supportive of the US. It would be about as ridiculous as the UK declaring war on the US after 9/11/2001 because 68 of their citizens were killed in an attack the US government failed to prevent. The public relations aspect of the Libyan government's support for the US is important, very true, though I have my doubts it will matter that much to Islamophobic folks. Fortunately, that kind of bloodthirsty knee-jerk reaction does not seem to be in cards for this incident.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:24
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Even bringing up that video in regards to this pisses me off so much. That video had nothing to do with what happened at all- every single ounce of blame is on the shoulders of the people that committed these crimes. To say otherwise is just insulting to both the people that died and Muslims everywhere. Really? I've little doubt that Islamic extremists don't need much ammunition, fabricated or not, to get supporters to take to the streets, especially on or around 9/11 - but that doesn't mean that people who provide them with the ammunition should get off scott free. Propaganda based in truth is so much easier to spin, especially when its being confirmed by every 24-hour news channel out there. Obviously the agitators are to blame here - but every ounce of blame? Men like Terry Jones are blameless in the deaths of the UN workers and their ASG guards in Afghanistan? Or the people who made this film knowing that it'll piss off Muslims are not complicit in the deaths of the US Consulate workers, even though the film is used as the justification? e: spelling Red7 fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Sep 13, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:25
|
|
|
Just The Facts posted:What would you suggest? I really don't have any. Which is mainly the reason why I decided to post in this thread. The amount of hate, warmongering, and anger in those posts makes me feel depressed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:26
|
|
|
Red7 posted:Really? I've little doubt that Islamic extremists don't need much ammunition, fabricated or not, to get supporters to take to the streets, especially on or around 9/11 - but that doesn't mean that people who provide them with the ammunition should get off scott free. Propaganda based in truth is so much easier to spin, especially when its being confirmed by every 24-hour news channel out there. If the people making the video had been, in some hypothetical universe, completely unaware of the potential consequences of their actions -- and were just exercising their right to free (stupid) speech, then they are ignorant and terrible but are not to blame for this tragedy. However, I have a very hard time believing that they didn't understand the potential consequences of releasing a video that defames the prophet Muhammad, and as such, definitely share a portion of the blame. That said, it isn't the same amount of blame reserved for someone who literally took part in murder. Not defending the video in any way, but I think to say that the blame lies equally with all parties would be very wrong. speng31b fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 13, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:29
|
|
|
New Division posted:The public relations aspect of the Libyan government's support for the US is important, very true, though I have my doubts it will matter that much to Islamophobic folks. Fortunately, that kind of bloodthirsty knee-jerk reaction does not seem to be in cards for this incident. I'm already seeing 'no instant retaliation = apology from Obummer' type comments on right leaning forums I frequent.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:31
|
|
|
Ali Abunimah just tweeted this.quote:LOS ANGELES (AP) — The search for those behind the provocative, anti-Muslim film that triggered mobs in Egypt and Libya led Wednesday to a California Coptic Christian convicted of financial crimes who acknowledged his role in managing and providing logistics for the production. http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/2012/09/12/california-man-confirms-role-anti-islam-film/q4nkfgLKTkQIFbiAzx0HfO/story.html
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:35
|
|
|
quote:Octoroom There should be no loving consequences. Regardless of what you believe of the validity of religion, there's no excuse for killing people over words. Theoretically I should be able to go out in public and announce that Jesus isn't the son of god, and Muhummad isn't the prophet, with no loving repercussions. We need to get rid of the mentality that religion is the default and everything should yield to it, no, religion is a loving magical story that some people choose to believe, and thats just the facts of it. I don't care what anyone in the world believes but there's nothing that these people could say to me that would make me freak out like this, yet an American or westerner says one thing and they say it's ok to kill that person over words? Can you really blame these ignorant fucks either? This stuff is in the Koran, making war on non believers, etc. I've finally come to the conclusion that the whole "Nah man, Islam is a peaceful religion!!11" is really just bullshit water-muddying. Christianity was formed as a violence filled horrible religion, big deal, get in line Islam. You aren't peaceful because the supposed story of your creation involves killing anyone that doesn't believe you, both Christianity and Islam. You can't claim your religion is peaceful because in practice, you kill women and children for political reasons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:35
|
|
|
Silky Thighs posted:I really don't have any. Which is mainly the reason why I decided to post in this thread. The amount of hate, warmongering, and anger in those posts makes me feel depressed. People should be angry about this. Hate needs to be properly targeted and I think most people who speak of war mostly mean to catch/kill the people who did this, not invade Libya. Then again, people say a lot of stupid stuff so early.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:36
|
|
|
Looking at the evidence surrounding the mystery man behind the YouTube movie... this entire event appears to have been pre-planned. And possibly with the filmmaker in collusion. This looks like a really bad psy-ops job that was manufactured from the beginning.quote:The trailer was uploaded to YouTube by an individual whose identity was in question. Some news organizations carried interviews with someone who said he was the filmmaker and identified himself as Sam Bacile, an Israeli-American real estate developer in California, but there was no immediate confirmation in official records of such a person. In one report, he identified himself as 52 and in another, 56. quote:But web and public record searches bring up no evidence of the supposed real estate mogul. The Israeli government told the Post they couldn't find records Sam Bacile was a citizen. Even Bacile's age is a mystery: He told the Wall Street Journal he was 52, but told the AP he's 56, as pointed out by Religion Dispatch. His YouTube page says he's 75. quote:According to Garica, her three days on set last July were unremarkable. The film's mysterious pseudonymous writer and director, "Sam Bacile," has claimed to be an Israeli real estate mogul. But Garcia said Bacile told her he was Egyptian on set. Bacile had white hair and spoke Arabic to a number of "dark-skinned" men who hung around the set, she said. (A Bacile associate also told The Atlantic he wasn't Israeli or Jewish.) quote:I just called a man named Steve Klein -- a self-described militant Christian activist in Riverside, California (whose actual business, he said, is in selling "hard-to-place home insurance"), who has been described in multiple media accounts as a consultant to the film. quote:Bacile told reporters he's an Israeli real estate developer living in California, and shot the film over three months in the summer of 2011 with $5 million put up by "100 Jewish donors." There's no way any of that is true. This all looks like a blatant setup. The fact that the "Bacile" character keeps trying to point the finger at "Jews" is the most telling part of what motivated it. I wouldn't even be surprised to learn that "Bacile" was part of a plot from a neighboring country or rival faction to stoke unrest in Libya. Fruity Rudy fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Sep 13, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:38
|
|
|
Antigen v2.0 posted:There should be no loving consequences. Regardless of what you believe of the validity of religion, there's no excuse for killing people over words. Theoretically I should be able to go out in public and announce that Jesus isn't the son of god, and Muhummad isn't the prophet, with no loving repercussions. We need to get rid of the mentality that religion is the default and everything should yield to it, no, religion is a loving magical story that some people choose to believe, and thats just the facts of it. I don't care what anyone in the world believes but there's nothing that these people could say to me that would make me freak out like this, yet an American or westerner says one thing and they say it's ok to kill that person over words? It's never okay to kill someone for any reason, and I'm not suggesting that the people who made the video be legally responsible -- but perhaps morally, they are to some extent. It's not okay to disregard the potential consequences of your actions, even if you feel that those consequences are instigated by forces that you find unsavory or ignorant. If you understand that violence WILL probably result from making a video defaming Muhammad, then that is something you should not do, and if you willingly do it anyhow you have some moral stake in that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:39
|
|
|
AP posted:Nakoula denied he had posed as Bacile. During a conversation outside his home, he offered his driver’s license to show his identity but kept his thumb over his middle name, Basseley. Sorry but the ineptness makes this pretty funny
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:40
|
|
|
octoroon posted:If you understand that violence WILL probably result from making a video defaming Muhammad, then that is something you should not do, and if you willingly do it anyhow you have some moral stake in that. So the threat of violence trumps freedom of expression?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:42
|
|
|
Just The Facts posted:So the threat of violence trumps freedom of expression? In terms of moral culpability, yes. Legally, you can say whatever you drat well please.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:43
|
|
|
Just The Facts posted:So the threat of violence trumps freedom of expression? Yep, especially as it now seems that whole film was a deliberate attempt to stir up poo poo and violence.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:43
|
|
|
This is basically on par with 9/11 conspiracy theories. For one, noted anti-islam...thing named Terry Jones has associated himself with it. So unless you want to call him a 'psy-ops plant', it's just much more likely that the film was made by anti-islamic group of Egyptian coptics (which is why they would have spoken arabic). The attack on the embassy appears to be pre-mediated (especially if the guards were somehow in on it) though, so the film was likely an excuse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:45
|
|
|
Red7 posted:Really? I've little doubt that Islamic extremists don't need much ammunition, fabricated or not, to get supporters to take to the streets, especially on or around 9/11 - but that doesn't mean that people who provide them with the ammunition should get off scott free. Propaganda based in truth is so much easier to spin, especially when its being confirmed by every 24-hour news channel out there. And that is the rub regarding that whole pesky "freedom of speech" thing. It's one thing not to say something because you know it's wrong or because it would hurt people, another to try to silence someone through fear. Radical Islam does the latter. The goal is to prevent people from speaking out against the faith using simple fear of violence. And what if we cave? What if the moviemaker is punished for something other than deceiving his cast? That sends two messages. The first is that, yes, we will waive that pesky freedom of speech clause if we're scared. I'm aware that that's been proven, but still. The second is a bit more fightening. It sends a message that "to get what you want, just kill a few people". And I dont feel that that is a message that needs to be sent.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:45
|
|
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:In terms of moral culpability, yes. Legally, you can say whatever you drat well please. More so when you're putting other people in harms way and not yourself - its not like this is the first time this has happened, its not a unknown factor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:45
|
|
|
rudatron posted:This is basically on par with 9/11 conspiracy theories. For one, noted anti-islam...thing named Terry Jones has associated himself with it. So unless you want to call him a 'psy-ops plant', it's just much more likely that the film was made by anti-islamic group of Egyptian coptics (which is why they would have spoken arabic). The attack on the embassy appears to be pre-mediated (especially if the guards were somehow in on it) though, so the film was likely an excuse. I don't really think it's a conspiracy to point out the guy is flat out lying. There's no possible way he actually raised 5 million dollars for that film. So why is he saying that he received "5 million from 100 Jews?" Why did he falsely claim he was from "Israel"? The entire series of claims are a blatant lie so to point out a rather obvious reason why someone might make up those lies is not conspiracy it's more logical than accepting his clearly fake claims.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:48
|
|
|
Red7 posted:More so when you're putting other people in harms way and not yourself - its not like this is the first time this has happened, its not a unknown factor. Lets hope more groups of people don't realize you can shut people up that way. Hakkart summed up exactly why I brought that up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:48
|
|
 There was no embassy in Libya from May 1980 to September 2011, you imbecile.  This man is literally Genghis Khan.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:49
|
|
|
rudatron posted:the film was made by anti-islamic group of Egyptian coptics quote:Nakoula told the AP that he was a Coptic Christian and said the film's director supported the concerns of Christian Copts about their treatment by Muslims. But this is also an Egyptian man convicted of bank fraud and using multiple aliases who has been blatantly lying and deceptive the whole time and continuously pointing to "Israel" and "Jews" while doing it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 18:23 |
|
|
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-13/live-blog-us-ambassador-killed-in-consulate-attack/4258436 Skimming through the thread, didnt see mention of this but the ABC Australia article was updated half an hour ago with a few more details. quote:9:17am: Libyan officials speaking to Reuters have described the mayhem as US staff fled the burning consulate and a rescue team of US Marines ran into an ambush at a remote desert villa. Christ, yeah mob violence is definitely out of the question now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 00:54
|
|
