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This isn't a great novel to post in Overwined's thread since there's some significant plotting problems, but Octopussy and Martello, I share your love of hard boiled, gently caress the world detective fiction, and you should read "The Last Good Kiss" by James Crumley. The narrative voice is basically Chandler and Hammett on steroids for pages at a time. It's not super tightly plotted and I'm pretty sure some of the leads kinda die off into nothing (haven't read it in a while), but the voice alone is worth checking it out. Unfortunately I think it's probably the best of Crumley's works and basically seems like a tribute to Chandler's "The Long Goodbye." It is better. Also, if you haven't, read James Ellroy's Underworld USA Trilogy. I started on the final novel "Blood's A Rover" and worked from the beginning after that, but those are probably my favorite overall for hard boiled crazy detective poo poo novels. Out of place for recommendations, but I love that genre and it seems like you two might also.
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Sep 11, 2012 08:14
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sebmojo posted:edit: Oh and Martello - what did you think of the redditor who got all Clancey over sending a Marine battalion back to Augustan Rome? Read pretty well to me, and my skimpy classical education didn't register any major clangers, but it seems your literary MOS. I think my favorite part of that is this guy. quote:Second, your knowledge of the Marines and military tactics is a 1/10 and just about everything in the entire story would have been different with more knowledge. Some examples, the mindset and stress: we're trained hard both mentally and physically. I assume you're getting the idea of our ability to handle stress from what seems logical assumption and the results of the Iraq war. Iraq is not to be considered a traditional war though, nor is Vietnam. The mindset was totally different in those wars than this scenario. First Vietnam had a lot of grunts (which means Ground Unit Untrained). Those are the draft guys who spent a fraction of the time in training and didn't become as mentally prepared for war as a normal Marine. Second Iraq is not a just war by any means. We are not defending the country we are only there to make rich people richer and to fix Bush's problems from going in the first place. Honestly most Marines would relish in a fight like this scenario and morale would actually go up greatly, that is until we figured out we couldn't go back home then the mental anguish and suicide rate would increase. Yeah, marines are so badass they're even trained for time-travel.
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Sep 11, 2012 13:17
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sebmojo posted:edit: Oh and Martello - what did you think of the redditor who got all Clancey over sending a Marine battalion back to Augustan Rome? Read pretty well to me, and my skimpy classical education didn't register any major clangers, but it seems your literary MOS. It wasn't bad, but the dude's clearly not an actual Soldier (or Marine). I like his narrative style, it's similar to what you'd read in a book like Black Hawk Down. The bit where COL Nelson makes the "above my paygrade" joke is funny, but why would he say that? He's the Commandant of the Marine Corps now, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense, hell, the loving President of the United States. I'm pretty sure any self-respecting O6 would absolutely leap at the chance to be the highest man on the totem pole with no oversight whatsoever. When he says "A SAW is locked and loaded - .50 caliber bullets." I actually physically cringed. gently caress, dude, Wikipedia is right there! Press ctrl+t and put it in your browser bar! Then type in "Squad Automatic Weapon," or even just "SAW" and find the goddamn disambiguation page. loving people who can't even research the easiest loving military tech poo poo.   I'm wondering what kind of a position this SGT McCandless is in charge of. If it's just a fireteam or a squad, I can buy it, but it kinda seems like it might be a bigger OP (observation post) or a strongpoint on the camp wall. There would likely be a Staff Sergeant or even a Lieutenant somewhere nearby, and McCandless would sure as gently caress send for them as soon as the Romans entered his position's line of sight. Anyway I'll stop sperging on about this poo poo. It's overall a decent read but needs some military adviser help. Black Griffon posted:I think my favorite part of that is this guy. That dude's an idiot. He's a loving GRUNT, and he doesn't even know what the word means. Marine infantrymen always refer to themselves as grunts, so I'm not sure where he's getting the "ground unit untrained" thing. Maybe that's the Vietnam origin, but it doesn't mean that now. I love how he starts by saying "gaiz I'm a former Marine machine gunner" as if that makes him a tactical and military science genius. You know what machine gunners do? Whatever the gently caress the weapons squad leader tells them to. The machine gunner is a dude who carries a big heavy gun, and lies down in the prone exactly where the squad leader tells him to, and then is given a left and right limit, and "shoot everything in that cone of fire." Also, a bunch of people called him out on the reddit, but no loving way does your average Marine carry 300 pounds for 25 miles. One of the other posters said it, that "Marines are known for hyperbole." loving a-right. Unless maybe he means 300 pounds is the average total weight of a combat-loaded Marine, including the jarhead himself. That would be closer to accurate. His claims that they're "physically AND MENTALLY tough" is fine and all, but nobody is trained to be dropped thousands of years in the past with no contact with friends and family. I call bullshit on the vast majority of Marines (or my Soldiers) feeling just fine about that. Prufrock451 was right to give his Marines fraying nerves and so on. He still got a few things right, though. Marines would go for an eternity without showering, no problem at all. They'd probably also just use iodine tablets to purify water like he said, instead of wasting fuel to boil the water. Using an MRE for 4 days...well, you could do that if you don't want any energy. If you're moving long distances on foot you need that muscle fuel. At Ranger School they only give us 2 MREs a day and that's not nearly enough.
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Sep 11, 2012 16:52
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Would it be alright to ask a recommended reading list from you guys? I've been trying to write fantasy and I keep tripping up, then I realised it's because I haven't read enough. I've read: * Almost everything Terry Pratchett has written * The Lord of the Rings trilogy * The Hobbit * The first two books of ASoFaI While I know most TP stuff back-to-back (he was my favourite author when I was a teenager), his style of fantasy is a bit left-field to base yourself on without coming off as an imitator. What's good reading? Particularly stuff that's available cheap in ebook format.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:02
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I need the help of any TFR (or just firearm knowledgeable Goons). If I wanted a character to have a small, easily concealed pistol, what would be most feasible? Decent (well for a pistol stopping power would be a nice bonus but I am not sure) former mentioned qualities can co-exist with that.
SkySteak fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 00:35
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No, I still can. I'm always on active duty, I'm just going to a month-long training rotation. I'll have limited internet access out there but if you send me a PM I'll either respond when I get the chance or get back to you when I return in October. Martello fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 00:44
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Sadly I can't send PMs but I'm willing to wait. 
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Sep 13, 2012 00:46
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SkySteak posted:I need the help of any TFR (or just firearm knowledgeable Goons). If I wanted a character to have a small, easily concealed pistol, what would be most feasible? Decent (well for a pistol stopping power would be a nice bonus but I am not sure) former mentioned qualities can co-exist with that.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:47
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I'll put this here since the thread moved on: For a concealable but hard-hitting pistol, there're plenty of options. What kind of guy is the character? Where is he from? Is he a guy who would only buy American, or would he be all about buying something cool and Austrian? Use cars as an analog - would he drive a big tricked-out Ford F250 Super Duty or a Space Gray BMW M3? If you can give me some details on him (or her) I might be able to make a more appropriate recommendation. And like Muffin said, is this a period piece or modern-day?
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Sep 13, 2012 00:48
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Modern day, upper middle class American. Probably buying American but I can't imagine he'd be a prude on specific brand. A civilian though. Hope that makes it a little more clear.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:51
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Okay, that helps, but what's his firearms experience? Plenty of civilians are gun nuts, like I will be when I eventually get out of the Army. If he knows what he's doing with a gun, that will also change his choice. There's also budget to consider. Handgun prices vary wildly across brands, models and calibers. I know this sounds like a lot to go into what you'd think is just a simple prop, but it's my belief that your characters should consider the purchase of something expensive - and especially something expensive and deadly - as much as a real live human being would. If he does know a lot about guns, has shot them quite a bit or even just a few different makes and models, and especially if he reads Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement or Guns & Ammo, he might quite likely be brand-loyal as gently caress. On a side note, do the rest of you guys think I should start a thread just for talking about military/guns/weapons/combat in writing?
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Sep 13, 2012 00:54
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Limited but not non existent. His father used to own a few pistols and shotguns. I'd imagine this guy would be the sort who would not be totally clueless but would on the side of buying something fancy; if on the side of purchasing something above his needs. The sort of who, when buys something goes for all the smitten and deluxe options. As said, I'd say upper middle class but not a mansion owning CEO or anything.
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Sep 13, 2012 01:01
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Would it be alright to ask a recommended reading list from you guys? I've been trying to write fantasy and I keep tripping up, then I realised it's because I haven't read enough. I've read: I suggest you start working your way through this thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3345499&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 There is some questionable stuff in there, but a lot of good stuff as well. Just make sure you read for a few pages after each recommendation to get a full sense of what the book is about.
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Sep 13, 2012 01:23
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SkySteak posted:Limited but not non existent. His father used to own a few pistols and shotguns. I'd imagine this guy would be the sort who would not be totally clueless but would on the side of buying something fancy; if on the side of purchasing something above his needs. The sort of who, when buys something goes for all the smitten and deluxe options. As said, I'd say upper middle class but not a mansion owning CEO or anything. Have him buy some kind of Kimber Custom 1911 compact model. Kimber is "the" custom 1911 company, and the Colt 1911 is "the" tough-guy AMERICAN pistol. .45 ACP round will kill pretty much anything, especially with the right expanding bullet. Take a look at these little guys. This is the Kimber Carry line, specially made for concealed carry (duh). The Ultra, Ultra HD and Ultra + are the ones you want. All three sound pretty cool, so that's also a plus. "Bobby reached into his duffel coat and pulled out his Kimber Ultra HD." Or summat. You can really just look up "compact 1911" on Google and use whatever cool gun catches yer eye.
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Sep 13, 2012 01:29
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Would it be alright to ask a recommended reading list from you guys? I've been trying to write fantasy and I keep tripping up, then I realised it's because I haven't read enough. I've read: Steven Erickson's series Malazan Book of The Fallen are dense, meaty tomes with a ton of stuff to keep track of, but that poo poo is down right inspired. That dude has epic fantasy nailed.
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Sep 13, 2012 01:34
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Chexoid posted:Steven Erickson's series Malazan Book of The Fallen are dense, meaty tomes with a ton of stuff to keep track of, but that poo poo is down right inspired. That dude has epic fantasy nailed.
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Sep 13, 2012 01:39
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I keep hearing good things about this series. I just now snapped up a digital copy of Gardens of the Moon on the cheap. Keep 'em coming. I'd recommend Erikson with reservations. He's a decent writer, but while he's fantastic at ultra-epic sweep he is bad at actual characters. Though he does have a surprising knack for Woodhousian banter. If GotM does your head in, try fifty pages of the next one, Deadhouse Gates, and see if you like it better - he wrote it much later and it shows in the prose. I'd put Joe Abercrombie on my must-read list - he did a trilogy (The First Law) which starts incredibly strongly and peters out a little towards then end, but is absolutely worth reading nonetheless. I'd say his more recent book The Heroes is probably his best, if you want a standalone. And he has a new one coming out soon. The chronically underrated CJ Cherryh's Morgaine books (Gate of Ivrel, Well of Shiuan, Fire of Azeroth) are excellent gritty fantasy and so is The Paladin. Also in the unsung category is JV Jones, who did some fairly bland fantasy before getting totally inspired by ASOIAF and writing A Cavern of Black Ice and its three sequels. Gnarly, gritty, intensely realised stuff. Unfinished sadly - I think there's still one to go. Edit: Let me know if you end up liking Erikson, actually - I have the first six books and I'd be happy to send them down to you for postage cost.
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Sep 13, 2012 02:45
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Martello posted:On a side note, do the rest of you guys think I should start a thread just for talking about military/guns/weapons/combat in writing? But my actual knowledge is actually really limited, just enough to know how much I don't know. It probably doesn't help that the only military-themed novels are, well... Tom Clancy. Even as a kid, I knew that Jack Ryan bullseying an IRA terrorist on a speed boat after two weeks of practice at the range was bullshit.
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Sep 13, 2012 04:30
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Has anyone ever written a story set in a foreign country with a foreign language? I'm thinking of starting a novel set in a Spanish-speaking country, but I'll be writing in English, and a part of me will be very aware of making the language too 'English' and idiomatic. Should I just write the way I normally would, minus anything too regional and North American? I feel like this is a dumb question but it's been nagging at me.
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Sep 14, 2012 01:44
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Martello posted:Have him buy some kind of Kimber Custom 1911 compact model. Kimber is "the" custom 1911 company, and the Colt 1911 is "the" tough-guy AMERICAN pistol. .45 ACP round will kill pretty much anything, especially with the right expanding bullet. Take a look at these little guys. This is the Kimber Carry line, specially made for concealed carry (duh). The Ultra, Ultra HD and Ultra + are the ones you want. All three sound pretty cool, so that's also a plus. "Bobby reached into his duffel coat and pulled out his Kimber Ultra HD." Or summat. You can really just look up "compact 1911" on Google and use whatever cool gun catches yer eye. Thanks for that. I was going to mention that if we do have a weapon thread, it should be more of a Technical Thread so you leave room for general machinery, certain systems etc. PS: Also do pistols get much more expensive then those deluxe models?
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Sep 14, 2012 05:38
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SkySteak posted:Thanks for that. I was going to mention that if we do have a weapon thread, it should be more of a Technical Thread so you leave room for general machinery, certain systems etc. This is a way less creepy/goony take on the idea, I like it.
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Sep 14, 2012 15:15
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SkySteak posted:PS: Also do pistols get much more expensive then those deluxe models? Can we please take the gun chat outside? There's better places to ask these kinds of questions, like the newbie thread in TFR. To be fair, if I wanted info on rocket science, I'd go find a physics forum and ask a bunch of experts. If I wanted to know everything about horses, I'd go find a horse forum.
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Sep 15, 2012 22:58
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sebmojo posted:If I was going to use a single word to describe it, it'd be 'leering'. I'd not think less of someone who loved it, because he's undeniably talented. Why is his talent undeniable? He used the word largely twice in three paragraphs. In one of those the sentence was, "He lay largely on the bed." If nothing else he's got a tin ear, which is a pretty big hurdle for me to get over when labeling a writer as "talented."
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Sep 15, 2012 23:55
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Stuporstar posted:Can we please take the gun chat outside? There's better places to ask these kinds of questions, like the newbie thread in TFR. That's absolutely fine. In fact If we do get a Technical Questions thread then it should stop such questions clogging up this thread.
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Sep 16, 2012 01:35
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Mr. Belding posted:Why is his talent undeniable? He used the word largely twice in three paragraphs. In one of those the sentence was, "He lay largely on the bed." If nothing else he's got a tin ear, which is a pretty big hurdle for me to get over when labeling a writer as "talented." Partly it's to not be an rear end in a top hat because some people love Mieville to bits. But also he has a great fecund imagination. And from memory his wordsmithing was at least competent.
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Sep 16, 2012 04:40
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sebmojo posted:Partly it's to not be an rear end in a top hat because some people love Mieville to bits. But also he has a great fecund imagination. And from memory his wordsmithing was at least competent. I wanted to like China Mieville because his settings are like gothic cathedrals filled with gargoyles. Unfortunately, so is his prose.
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Sep 16, 2012 04:49
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Stuporstar posted:I wanted to like China Mieville because his settings are like gothic cathedrals filled with gargoyles. Unfortunately, so is his prose. I liked The City & The City better than Perdido Street Station. I don't actually love Mieville to bits, but if you're interested in fantasy that really breaks the Tolkien mold, he's worth checking out. If you checked him out and didn't like him, I don't blame you at all. I realized today, though, that I haven't really been blown away by any adult fantasy lately. I probably need to try harder to find the good stuff. Turns out "whatever's on the shelf at Salvation Army" isn't the best selection process. I've definitely learned a lot about writing from reading so much crap this past year, though!
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Sep 16, 2012 05:49
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Stuporstar posted:I wanted to like China Mieville because his settings are like gothic cathedrals filled with gargoyles. Unfortunately, so is his prose. As for recommendations the best new non-Tolkein-y fantasy I've read for ages is Jesse Bullingham's The Enterprise of Death - same guy who wrote The Sad Tale of the Brothers Grossbart, but with a much more sympathetic heroine, who just happens to raise the dead, drink a lot and chase women. Other non-Tolkien fantasy: Angela Carter; Magic Realism before it became A Thing. I don't think she ever wrote anything not worth reading, but you could start with her short stories. Jack Vance; no trace whatsoever of Tolkien and thesaurus abuse that makes the thesaurus beg for more. The Dying Earth and Lyonesse books are a good place to begin. Susanna Clarke; Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. Footnotes! I'm kind of a footnotes nerd, and while Nabokov's Pale Fire is the literary apex of footnotes (and has some claim to being a Ruritanian fantasy... oh, read that too. It takes too long to explain. And Nabokov is an awesome writer). R. A. Lafferty; anything you can get your hands on, really - I prefer his short stories, but either way you've never read anything like them. He takes insane inventiveness to whole new levels.
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Sep 16, 2012 10:04
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Runcible Cat posted:Footnotes! I'm kind of a footnotes nerd, and while Nabokov's Pale Fire is the literary apex of footnotes (and has some claim to being a Ruritanian fantasy... oh, read that too. It takes too long to explain. And Nabokov is an awesome writer). For footnoted goodness, try Lanark by Alasdair Gray. It's semi-autobiographical fiction set in a fantasy frame. One chapter, in particular, is glorious in the footnote respect. It goes so far as to reprint an entire short story by James Kelman (who is also awesome, but whose writing has been a bit blunted since his Booker win). I'm not a real fantasy/spec fic fan, so for me the middle secion of Lanark works the best.
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Sep 16, 2012 13:03
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Footnote Fiction is an odd genre and I think I have one more for the pile. Flann O'Brien's The Third Policeman is a fantastic example of footnotes loving with your mind, much as the entire book. They are used sparingly (with a couple remarkable exceptions) but to great effect. O'Brien to me has the perfect wit. It is sharp enough to be both hilarious and enlightening yet it's not so turgid that it collapses beneath its own weight.
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Sep 16, 2012 13:34
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Nirvikalpa posted:Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm starting school, and it's kicking my rear end already. Maybe in four years? I'm not that desperate to write well. I wish you'd have stuck around as I'm curious as to why you'd be happy to do something but not to the best of your ability? Life's too short to piddle it away on creating things that nobody else will enjoy, especially regarding any art form which could be argued to fundamentally be about the exchanging of ideas. A lot of books suggested are quite modern, though recently I've been wishing more that I read things in a more chronological order (classics>modernist>post-modernist). Especially with certain books that redefine genres or play on cliche. For instance with Fantasy perhaps starting with Lord Of The Rings, then move onto Conan, then Discworld, then Game Of Thrones for example. It'd also be interesting to maybe compile a list of books that are relatively easy to read for someone who hasn't read many books yet is good enough to get the reader excited about books. For my brother this was harry potter and for me it was goosebumps, though if I was in my twenties and had barely read I may be more receptive to something like The Old Man And The Sea or The Stranger rather than going for Moby Dick or Gravity's Rainbow.
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Sep 17, 2012 12:13
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justcola posted:It'd also be interesting to maybe compile a list of books that are relatively easy to read for someone who hasn't read many books yet is good enough to get the reader excited about books. For my brother this was harry potter and for me it was goosebumps, though if I was in my twenties and had barely read I may be more receptive to something like The Old Man And The Sea or The Stranger rather than going for Moby Dick or Gravity's Rainbow. My thoughts kept coming back to this over the past few days, and I really disagree that The Stranger or The Old Man and the Sea would be good introductions to people who don't enjoy reading. I really like both of them, but they aren't remotely tantalizing. And they are both frequently assigned high school reading, so slogging through them is likely to bring back bad memories of having to slog through boring poo poo because your teacher says it's "meaningful." This may be awful and embarrassing, but I decided that if I had a friend now who didn't much like reading, I would start them off with Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: Funny, satirical, plot driven, and easy to read, but less retarded than Dan Brown.
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Sep 21, 2012 06:42
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:My thoughts kept coming back to this over the past few days, and I really disagree that The Stranger or The Old Man and the Sea would be good introductions to people who don't enjoy reading. This again. The Stranger is a very easy read, but it doesn't have much in the way of compelling action. In addition, the themes it deals with are philosophically complex, and it's impossible to appreciate why it's a good book without having foreknowledge of what Camus was trying to get across or being decent at interpreting literature. Neither of which apply to someone who doesn't enjoy reading. I'm not going to recommend Pratchett or Gaiman (although they're great) because they're not strictly literary authors, and it looked like you were trying to get them into so-called serious literature. Instead I'll recommend the books that started me off with literature: The Picture of Dorian Gray, and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. They're both Gothic fantasy novels, and because they're Late Victorian they're fairly accessible to a modern reader and aren't bogged down with the reams of description that e.g. Jane Eyre is. If you want something more modern, why not Catch-22? It's both hilarious and poignant.
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Sep 21, 2012 18:08
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Overwined posted:Footnote Fiction is an odd genre and I think I have one more for the pile. Flann O'Brien's The Third Policeman is a fantastic example of footnotes loving with your mind, much as the entire book. They are used sparingly (with a couple remarkable exceptions) but to great effect. I thought of The Mezzanine when I saw Footnote fiction. Unlike your rec though, if I remember it right, the footnotes are likely longer than the actual book. It's an easy read, if jumpy, and I liked it a lot. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who doesn't especially like post-modern literature though. e: Seconding Dorian Grey. It's a really good book. One other book I really liked when I read it, though I suppose it might be considered YA (I'm still part of that demographic I think), was the Book Thief. SC Bracer fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Sep 21, 2012 |
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Sep 21, 2012 20:30
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I'll never get the academic fascination with Old Man and the Sea. It may be the worst of Hemingway's novels published in his lifetime, though we can argue that. One way or another it's not by any means it's not the swan song that everyone makes it out to be. You'd think that literary people would be more focussed on his more "important" works like A Farewell to Arms or For Whom the Bell Tolls. It's not like the guy wrote nothing but inscrutable novels. Pretty much everything is easy to read if nothing else.
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Sep 21, 2012 20:31
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There's no need for "experts" when dealing with the straightforward. They focus on The Old Man and the Sea because they have more to say about it.
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Sep 21, 2012 23:16
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I still want to know how someone is disgusted by what they read. Maybe all they've read was that weird S&M Power Ranger fiction. So...How often do you guys give up on something you're writing? Or do you see it through to the end no matter what? I usually give something about a week or so and if it's not grabbing me then I abandon it. I think if it's simply not working then it's going to come across in the writing and if I find it a chore to write then surely it's going to be a chore to read. But then I know people who will finish no matter what and then make a judgement.
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Sep 24, 2012 13:07
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:My thoughts kept coming back to this over the past few days, and I really disagree that The Stranger or The Old Man and the Sea would be good introductions to people who don't enjoy reading. I really like both of them, but they aren't remotely tantalizing. And they are both frequently assigned high school reading, so slogging through them is likely to bring back bad memories of having to slog through boring poo poo because your teacher says it's "meaningful." I found them to be quite fun, and short, but I could appreciate that somebody whose never read might not be able to appreciate them just as someone whose never listened to music probably isn't going to be that much into...brian eno or something. I think more literary fiction can be a good starting point depending on the reader, for instance the poster who said that books revolted him I imagine something a little laid back may be more suitable. I agree with Good Omens, then from there American Gods could be a nice second book, though it helps to have some basic knowledge of mythology. Off the top of my head I quite liked Lord Of The Flies, Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas, The Dice Man and I Am Legend when I started to read 'proper' books. Though I hadn't seen any of the film versions when I read these, I suppose it would be a good entry point if one had seen and enjoyed the film? Reading has always been something I've done, I struggle to understand why people either don't read at all or get irritated if they see me reading a book. Shucks. quote:So...How often do you guys give up on something you're writing? Or do you see it through to the end no matter what? I usually give something about a week or so and if it's not grabbing me then I abandon it. I think if it's simply not working then it's going to come across in the writing and if I find it a chore to write then surely it's going to be a chore to read. But then I know people who will finish no matter what and then make a judgement. I've abandoned a few projects as I get bored with certain elements of it, and it would be easier to start a new story than undo certain cul-de-sacs or rewrites for such an early draft. I sometimes solve this by writing later scenes then linking the whole thing up, or shelving it for a few months, re-reading then write a totally different story but use the characters I've spent time and know, as I'd rather put an end to it than having unfinished projects knocking around in my head for months (or years).
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Sep 24, 2012 13:33
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The times I start and stop the most stories is the times I'm least productive. I try to finish anything I write, no matter how lovely it turns out. If I'm thinking "This could be a novel!" and lose faith, I'll just turn it into a lovely short. Having unfinished stories on my plate really mess with my vibes, and it's better to have a hundred bad shorts than a dozen "So I'm working on my novel" novels.
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Sep 24, 2012 13:33
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DrVenkman posted:So...How often do you guys give up on something you're writing? Or do you see it through to the end no matter what? I usually give something about a week or so and if it's not grabbing me then I abandon it. I think if it's simply not working then it's going to come across in the writing and if I find it a chore to write then surely it's going to be a chore to read. But then I know people who will finish no matter what and then make a judgement. For me, "giving up" would be an inaccurate phrase. It's something close to that, but it's not quite that. From what I gather from your post, it sounds like you have an idea, sit down to work on it for a while, and then it gets cold on you, so you give up. That can produce a pretty bad cycle of failure where you feel like you just keep loving up and it'll never change. I'll tell you what I do, at least. See, it'd come as no surprise to anyone familiar with my posting or personality that I have zero qualms with making a jackass of myself nowadays. But when I first began writing, I had these lofty ideals of writing heady books that'd awake the masses and blah blah blah stroking my own cock. I spent too much time trying to eek out perfect words because all the bitter, failed writers that became my English teachers did it like that and declared it the only way to achieve success. Then I got in with the rough-and-tumble crowd of people who were actually publishing fiction. Some of them were loving drunken idiots, barely aware enough of their surroundings to decide which direction to lean and fart. But they were funny, passionate, and dedicated to the right things about writing. Maybe their grammar needed work, but they knew how to tell a story. They have a Voice in their voices, and they hit the notes of prose and dialogue. It's what you call "having heart." So, I took a look at what I had been taught. I'd been taught to be like the douchebags that hang out in coffee shops working on their latest novel they're going to self-publish on Amazon after a cursory spell-check. They sit there, emotionless, pecking at the keyboard between their sips of complicated coffee and endlessly revising the same drat page all day before the thing is finished. Always justifying their being slow to pump out a first draft as "being a different kind of writer" or something like that. I hadn't quite made the connection at that point. I just instinctively knew that was what I was doing and that it's just spinning your wheels. For me, it took an angsty, existential crisis leading to drinking my rear end off for a few years until I had so thoroughly hosed up my situation that writing seemed like a fairly reasonable occupation to take up full-time if not the only one available to me then. Desperation is a fantastic teacher. When you have nothing to lose, it makes you take bigger risks. You're hungry enough to learn and succeed by putting your guts on the line. A lot of people think they're doing that, but anything that's deeply personal is often couched in so much distanced bullshit that it will never come across on the page. Why do we (or at least some) secretly love to read E/N when it's not just someone bitching and moaning about boring problems? It's because those people are cutting their guts open and spilling them on the floor with full knowledge that they are likely to be mocked and certain to receive no help or good advice. They just want to tell their story because they feel it needs to get out, and we enjoy seeing these trainwrecks because we can connect with this true communication of emotion even if it's not in our realm of personal experience. A combination of my desperation and thickened skin from making a drunken rear end of myself made it easy for me to take big risks in writing: fiction, poetry, and other. I found that by just taking an idea and running with it, I produced some pretty darn good material. Don't stop to question whether it's good or not--just go. You want to feel the emotions and ideas you want the reader to feel in real time, so you have to write fast, and the backspace key and fidgeting over whether a line is good or not is just going to slow you down and let that emotion cool off. Take care of all that in the editing. You should be laughing at the funny situation as you write it if you want them to laugh, be choked up if you want them to be. I fall into the same trap of dispassionate writing every now and then still, and I usually end up at the same place: hating the idea and wanting to toss it out. You're write that it's never a good sign if you're getting bored with your own work as you're creating it. If you're getting bored, though, just take the fucker down to first gear, make a hard turn off the road and head out to left field. I mean--if you're probably not going to use what you just wrote as it is anyway, just start doing something silly or weird that entertains you even if it's in mid-sentence. Pretend that you'd been doing the same style all along. That way, you're not wasting time on opening a new file and staring at yet another blank page. I guess the key takeaway is that you should just power through and not worry whether it's going to end up sucking or you're acting like an idiot. If you don't like where it's going, just take it in a wild direction even if it makes no sense, and if you don't like that, turn again. At least you'll be more likely to produce something you can work with, and you can always shape it up in the edits later.
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Sep 24, 2012 15:06
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