|
Fangz posted:Yes, both of these are via the same original source and supposedly originating from Chinese state news... except that no one's linking to a direct report from Chinese state news, which as I quoted, is *not* reporting on this. http://news.163.com/photoview/00AN0001/27512.html#p=8BJDJJ7600AN0001
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 20:25 |
|
|
Wait, so the Chinese are the ones destroying anything remotely tied to Japan, they're supposedly sending 1000 fishing trawlers to the Diaoyu islands... and we're having a discussion about the likelihood of an Imperial Japan rising and waging war against Asia? Color me skeptical. Media coverage in Japan has been pretty subdued.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:26
|
|
|
PrezCamachoo posted:Looks like a rather one sided pissing match to me. Notice the lack of Japanese people going out trying to burn Chinese businesses in Japan. Living in Japan at the moment. People are talking about the whole thing, and while there are definitely some condescending attitudes towards the Chinese on display, most Japanese people seem pretty confused by the whole thing. There is (generally speaking) a huge disconnect between the ruling class and the ruled in Japan. People's political attitudes are quite complicated. Up until the mid-1970s there was actually a vehemently anti-imperialist, anti-fascist left in Japan but it collapsed and the left-right split in the country sort of got submerged in what you might call a "post-political" consensus. Which is to say that the right basically won the fight.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:29
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:Wait, so the Chinese are the ones destroying anything remotely tied to Japan, they're supposedly sending 1000 fishing trawlers to the Diaoyu islands... and we're having a discussion about the likelihood of an Imperial Japan rising and waging war against Asia? It is Japan that is trying to take what rightfully belongs to Chinese. That also betrays their imperialistic ambitions. Adrastus fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Sep 17, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:29
|
|
|
Adrastus posted:It is Japan that is trying to take from Chinese what is rightfully theirs. That also betrays their imperialistic ambitions. The preponderance of views among most legal experts is that Japan has the stronger legal claim to these islands. I recommend William E. Helfin's, “Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands Dispute: Japan and China Oceans Apart,” Asian- Pacific Law and Policy Journal Vol.1, Issue 2 (2000) Available here - http://blog.hawaii.edu/aplpj/files/2011/11/APLPJ_01.2_heflin.pdf
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:33
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:Wait, so the Chinese are the ones destroying anything remotely tied to Japan, If I were a Japanese person sitting at home watching tv i'd be laughing at the dumb rear end mainland Chinese destroying other Chinese citizen's property that they paid hard earned money for. Most of those Japanese restaurants they are throwing chairs through the store front of are owned by Chinese restauranteurs anyways. It's all pointless tantrum throwing by the nationalistic dull witted man on the street.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:35
|
|
|
Modus Operandi posted:If I were a Japanese person sitting at home watching tv i'd be laughing at the dumb rear end mainland Chinese destroying other Chinese citizen's property that they paid hard earned money for. Most of those Japanese restaurants they are throwing chairs through the store front of are owned by Chinese restauranteurs anyways. It's all pointless tantrum throwing by the nationalistic dull witted man on the street. Yeah, that's what I think when I see those pictures also. The protestors are just destroying their own stuff, and that hurts the Chinese the most. Meanwhile, boycotting Japanese products is useless because most of the counterparts of those products made in China are dubious at best. What are you going to do, not buy Japanese formula and feed your kid melamine kidney destroyer formula made in Glorious China?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 17:47
|
|
|
Adrastus posted:It is Japan that is trying to take what rightfully belongs to Chinese. That also betrays their imperialistic ambitions. So... if the Chinese are sending 1,000 ships over to some islands, while Japan sits on its rear end, then that's Japan trying to take China's stuff? You're taking my stuff right now, aren't you? I CAN SEE YOU DOING NOTHING! Give me my stuff back!
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 18:01
|
|
|
Warcabbit posted:So... if the Chinese are sending 1,000 ships over to some islands, while Japan sits on its rear end, then that's Japan trying to take China's stuff? Not that I agree with that person at all, but Japan is sitting on its rear end because it has ships permanently patrolling the waters around the island.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 18:28
|
|
|
I know, I was just being a tad silly. Seriously, though, the 1300s are 'time immemorial'? I know where my family's house was in the 1300s. That's not far back at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 18:54
|
|
|
Warcabbit posted:I know, I was just being a tad silly. Seriously, though, the 1300s are 'time immemorial'? I know where my family's house was in the 1300s. That's not far back at all. Also as the Native Americans in my country will tell you, the only territory claim that counts is one backed up by force. It doesn't matter who had those islands 500 years ago, what matters is that Japan has them now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 19:13
|
|
|
So, it's 3 am Tuesday Japan Time. Has any of the supposed massive invasion fleet arrived yet, because I'm seeing nothing on NHK or Japan Times, and it seems generally to have fallen off the front pages.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 17, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 19:31
|
|
|
Fangz posted:So, it's 3 am Tuesday Japan Time. Has any of the supposed massive invasion fleet arrived yet,
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 19:53
|
|
|
Question: Is there a sizable Chinese public/officials that still hold to the Marxist Communist ideals? Or are they all dead now?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 20:02
|
|
|
Where is the coverage of this? Was it false reporting or what?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 21:44
|
|
|
Adrastus posted:It is Japan that is trying to take what rightfully belongs to Chinese. That also betrays their imperialistic ambitions. Did Pro-PRC Laowai have a kid or something? Pro-PRC 混血孩子? Is that you?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2012 23:21
|
|
|
Adrastus posted:It is true, China is severely lacking in terms of infrastructure compared to Japan. However, people are quick to attribute these difficulties to government incompetence, corruption or even flaws with the system while overlooking the fact that it is more likely the direct result of colonialism and imperialistic aggression perpetuated by Japan, and various other countries in the West, the damage of which China is still struggling to overcome. This has to be a troll.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 01:07
|
|
|
Longanimitas posted:This has to be a troll. Well, troll or not the posts are hitting all the official PRC talking points down to a T. The PRC also has very little humour about its official talking points.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 01:31
|
|
|
So at this point do we think the highly trained chinese special forces with the invasion fleet are kinda hopelessly lost, or shall we conclude tentatively that WWIII maybe has been averted?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 01:52
|
|
|
Munin posted:Well, troll or not the posts are hitting all the official PRC talking points down to a T. The PRC also has very little humour about its official talking points. In China they call these types of posters "wumaodang," which literally means the "fifty cent party." The implication is that members of the half-dollar party are paid fifty cents every time they post something nice about the Chinese government.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 01:58
|
|
|
Longanimitas posted:In China they call these types of posters "wumaodang," which literally means the "fifty cent party." The implication is that members of the half-dollar party are paid fifty cents every time they post something nice about the Chinese government. He's only made 4 posts, it's going to take a long time for him to pay off the reg fee. More seriously, I kinda really dislike this sort of conspiracy theory. Debate becomes kinda pointless if you refuse to assume even the minimum amount of good faith about the other party.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 02:01
|
|
|
It's not something that really happens. It's just an insult commonly used against stupid jingoists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 02:06
|
|
|
Fangz posted:He's only made 4 posts, it's going to take a long time for him to pay off the reg fee. Well, 50 cent or not what was raised is whether he is a troll. Whilst he might very well be I did just wanted to point out that the points made had a certain heft in the international scene and are not farcical in that respect; if only due to the party making those arguments.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 02:08
|
|
|
Most educated Chinese people see those claims as farcical. They are held unironically only by officials, the uneducated, and the brainwashed. Unfortunately for China and the world, that's a lot of people.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 02:17
|
|
|
Longanimitas posted:Most educated Chinese people see those claims as farcical. They are held unironically only by officials, the uneducated, and the brainwashed. Unfortunately for China and the world, that's a lot of people. You haven't spoken to many of the Chinese diaspora then. Ask any Chinese professional living in the US about China/Japan or China/Tibet etc. and you're likely to hear them parrot the government line without even blinking.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 03:06
|
|
|
Maybe because they are deep seated sectarian conflicts where both sides have their own truths and grievances, and Americans should aim to resolve their own racial issues (we have major advantages over China in this) instead of getting involved in Old World conflicts. Also isn't it kind of an unspoken thing that if China has sea rights out to these little rocks then they also have claims surrounding Taiwan?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 03:19
|
|
|
ReindeerF posted:No, it's a fleet of 1,000 tightly packed Chinese ships. They're busy ramming each other's boats and jostling for position. This is so true.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 03:21
|
|
|
McDowell posted:Maybe because they are deep seated sectarian conflicts where both sides have their own truths and grievances, and Americans should aim to resolve their own racial issues (we have major advantages over China in this) instead of getting involved in Old World conflicts. On this issue China and the Taiwanese are actually in agreement. Both believe that the islands are part of Taiwan. The Chinese additionally believe that Taiwan is part of China of course, but for purpose of presenting an unified front they don't bring that up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 03:38
|
|
|
Japan just submitted the Takeshima/Dokdo issue to the ICJ for the third time, knowing that Korea would not participate in the tribunal and the case would not be heard. Why don't the Japanese do the same for the Senkaku/Diayou islands? Or the Chinese, for that matter?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 04:50
|
|
|
The Chinese don't submit these issues to third party arbitration because the government knows that their claims in many cases have no legal basis. For instance, China's claim to the South China Sea and all of the island groups in it are based on records from the hoary past that say that some Chinese ship sailed there and built a stone therefore it belongs to China today. Modern territorial law doesn't work like that, you don't get to claim a place because you planted a flag there 500 years ago. It's hard to understand that most Chinese people don't know that there's any question about this whatsoever. Here's an example of a Chinese map...  The entire South China Sea is marked with the 'nine dotted line' that shows this belongs to China. Every Chinese map has this inset of the SCS, just like every American map will have an inset of Alaska and Hawaii. People are taught that this is a part of China and no one mentions that no other country in the world recognizes this claim. So for people to hear that this isn't a part of China is kinda like someone telling you one day, "Hey by the way did you know that Alaska isn't part of America? No one else agrees with that... and there's no actual American authority there." You'd probably be pretty nonplussed. Just to see another example of how different the Chinese claims are compared to what modern international law says they should be...  But no one in China has any reason to doubt this because no one talks about it. There's no other side of the story that they get to hear, no one says, "Well we say we own the ocean up to the very shores of Malaysia 3000 miles from our own shores but some people disagree with that." This besides the fact that most of these islands are not technically considered islands legally, instead they're termed rocks, and you don't get to extend your exclusive economic zone from rocks. The Chinese claims in the South China Sea are even more ridiculous when you understand that the lines on the map are not technically defined, there's no coordinates associated with them. This makes it tough to defend your territorial waters when you can't even say where they begin or end. This is why China made a big deal about how they submitted geographic coordinates for the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, they were basically claiming that they belonged to China without actually saying what/where specifically they owned, this is unacceptable in maritime law. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2012-09/16/c_131853550.htm If China is doing something through bilateral negotiations it's generally because they believe that the UN or any other third party will find against them. They can use their immense weight to pressure small countries like Vietnam, the Philippines and Malaysia individually rather than allow them to join together or work through a neutral third party. Bilateral negotiations allow you to simply ignore the position of the other side and insist you're right, and when one of the countries is China, there's every reason to expect that they will win this fight in the end if they can keep it up, as they keep growing in strength relative to the rest of the world. China is happy to engage in multiparty talks when it's beneficial to them (see the 6-party talks regarding Korea)
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 05:31
|
|
|
The Japanese government does not actually care if they lose Dokdo. The only reason they assert the claims is for votes in Shimane prefecture, which "Takeshima" supposedly belongs to. If they lost it in court they could say "hey, we did our best" and then wash their hands of it. Korea, on the other hand, would lose a major political button to push when they need it. China and Japan both actually want the Senkakus, and are not going to leave it up to a court case. Japan especially since they already possess the islands and have nothing to gain by taking it to ICJ. I don't think a favorable decision would even get China off their back about it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 05:34
|
|
|
Fall Sick and Die posted:Here's an example of a Chinese map... Heh.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 06:00
|
|
|
Suntory BOSS posted:Japan just submitted the Takeshima/Dokdo issue to the ICJ for the third time, knowing that Korea would not participate in the tribunal and the case would not be heard. Japanese willingness to negotiate Takeshima, aka Dokdo, and failure to consider the same route on Senkaku is because Japan does not hold the former but does the latter. Japan can suggest negotiating Takeshima/Dokdo all it wants while being 100% certain that the Koreans will never agree to arbitration since they hold the rocks and they see nothing to negotiate. That's the same as the Japanese view of the Senkakus -- what's there to talk about? It's our land. There is always the chance you would lose in arbitration. Could you imagine what would happen to the Korean government that allowed the Japanese to regain control over Takeshima? Or the Japanese government that let Senkaku go to China? China also doesn't go to the ICJ because it apparently has a very unique view on territorial claims that are in serious conflict with the rest of the world. Long story short - they don't press the issue at the ICJ because half a dozen other countries are eagerly looking to press their own claims against China's claims in the South China Sea - most of which China would certainly lose.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 06:04
|
|
|
PrezCamachoo posted:Or the Japanese government that let Senkaku go to China? I honestly don't think the Japanese electorate gives a poo poo about Senkaku.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 06:22
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:I honestly don't think the Japanese electorate gives a poo poo about Senkaku. As been mentioned, the electorate matter very little in modern affairs. The big question is if there's any actual oil or gas resources under the hunk of rock, because both China and Japan, thanks to their boneheaded new energy policy, need that oil and gas if it exists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 06:52
|
|
|
.
sincx fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 07:17
|
|
|
I just saw an editorial on xinhua, haha... http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-09/18/c_123726112.htm Basically it's a bunch of stuff about the Diaoyu belonging to China but then they drop this pleasant nugget, the Ryukyu islands don't belong to Japan and they encourage the people of Okinawa to throw off the colonialist yoke of the Japanese imperialists!
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 07:42
|
|
|
Fall Sick and Die posted:the Ryukyu islands don't belong to Japan and they encourage the people of Okinawa to throw off the colonialist yoke of the Japanese imperialists! This honestly makes more sense than the Diaoyu crap.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 07:52
|
|
|
Longanimitas posted:Most educated Chinese people see those claims as farcical. They are held unironically only by officials, the uneducated, and the brainwashed. Unfortunately for China and the world, that's a lot of people. Really? Here in Hong Kong even the most vehement anti-communist government, pro-democracy activists are adamant that Diaoyu belongs to China. In fact they even landed a few guys on the island recently, and are planning to again (the HK government is so far not allowing their boat to leave). The most anti-China paper (apple daily) characterises the activists as heroes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 12:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 20:25 |
|
|
Here in Chongqing, a large central mainland Chinese city, several groups of demonstrators spent the entire day circling the capital district.   They stopped once an hour to chant in front of the stonework building on the left there because it is an old bunker that survived Japanese bombing during the war. It's now a little museum of war relics. Most people didn't look very interested. There were more demonstrations over the weekend that were a little bigger than this, but most people I talk to don't seem to care. It's anecdotal, but those who I've asked about the topic brush it off by saying that Japan is a bunch of bullies and imperialists but they never get into details.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2012 13:29
|
|
